jumping help required, plz

2006-06-27 12:42:10 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Hey. Being new to this forum (but a long-time fan), I need you guys to help my noob-ish jumping attempts.

I think I figured out acceleration jumps, and I think I know why they work and how to time the jump on the "outswing".

I've got Joequake with a standard control setup, with +jump on mouse2.

I can accel jump in both directions, but left is better. Meaning a quick narrow turn to the right (the zig), followed by a slower wider swing (+ strafe) to the left (the zag), and +jump.

Sometimes I tap strafe during the "zig", sometimes not.

1. Should I always tap strafe during the "zig"?

2. Is an average speed of 410-430 normal? How to go faster?

The next part concerns bunnyhopping and how to do it correctly in NetQuake. I used to do it in Quakeworld and remember it to be pretty easy. In NQ however I have big problems.

1. In NQ, unlike QW, you must press +forward during bunnies, right? The whole time? Or at what point (s)?

2. I got some insight from the "quake2 bunny" thread, where Kay explained his bunny style. However, he does them all to the same side, and I had difficulty following that. I do "pounce left, pounce right" (like Thomas' 100m demo) as that seems more natural to me. I would be glad if someone could give a step-by-step description of normal meat-and-potato bunny style. I have problems understanding the whole process and the timing.

When exactly do you jump? Do you jump during the "swing" (changing direction mid-air) or do you literally "jump left, jump right"?

When you change direction mid-air, should all the jumping points be on a hypothetical straight line?

In 100m_thomas from the bunny comparison (the one that looks most like what I do), he seems to change direction with each jump (not in midair), right? Sort of like alternating strafe jumps?

In 100m_kay and some others (Jozsef...) they seem to change direction in midair, right? The jump points are in a straight line?

However, they always jump to one side... shouldn't you alternate between left and right jumps? Like this:

- jump left
- change direction in midair
- jump right (this is where Kay etc. would jump left again)
- change direction
- jump left

That would seem far more efficient because you'd have to change strafe only half the time (where Kay jumps and strafes right again, you'd instead jump and keep strafing left.)

I would be thankful for a "bunnyhopping-done-right for newbies" description. Learning accel-jumping (took me months to figure it out) brought my playing to another level, but sometimes I'd like to attach some more hops to it without failing miserably.

And one day break the mystic 500 barrier.

A curious n00b

Thread title:

Hey. Being new to this forum (but a long-time fan), I need you guys to help my noob-ish jumping attempts.

I think I figured out acceleration jumps, and I think I know why they work and how to time the jump on the "outswing".

I've got Joequake with a standard control setup, with +jump on mouse2.

I can accel jump in both directions, but left is better. Meaning a quick narrow turn to the right (the zig), followed by a slower wider swing (+ strafe) to the left (the zag), and +jump.

Sometimes I tap strafe during the "zig", sometimes not.

1. Should I always tap strafe during the "zig"?

2. Is an average speed of 410-430 normal? How to go faster?

The next part concerns bunnyhopping and how to do it correctly in NetQuake. I used to do it in Quakeworld and remember it to be pretty easy. In NQ however I have big problems.

1. In NQ, unlike QW, you must press +forward during bunnies, right? The whole time? Or at what point (s)?

2. I got some insight from the "quake2 bunny" thread, where Kay explained his bunny style. However, he does them all to the same side, and I had difficulty following that. I do "pounce left, pounce right" (like Thomas' 100m demo) as that seems more natural to me. I would be glad if someone could give a step-by-step description of normal meat-and-potato bunny style. I have problems understanding the whole process and the timing.

When exactly do you jump? Do you jump during the "swing" (changing direction mid-air) or do you literally "jump left, jump right"?

When you change direction mid-air, should all the jumping points be on a hypothetical straight line?

In 100m_thomas from the bunny comparison (the one that looks most like what I do), he seems to change direction with each jump (not in midair), right? Sort of like alternating strafe jumps?

In 100m_kay and some others (Jozsef...) they seem to change direction in midair, right? The jump points are in a straight line?

However, they always jump to one side... shouldn't you alternate between left and right jumps? Like this:

- jump left
- change direction in midair
- jump right (this is where Kay etc. would jump left again)
- change direction
- jump left

That would seem far more efficient because you'd have to change strafe only half the time (where Kay jumps and strafes right again, you'd instead jump and keep strafing left.)

I would be thankful for a "bunnyhopping-done-right for newbies" description. Learning accel-jumping (took me months to figure it out) brought my playing to another level, but sometimes I'd like to attach some more hops to it without failing miserably.

And one day break the mystic 500 barrier.

A curious n00b

Mandel

2006-06-27 09:22:38 am

Mumma

I uploaded an article which you may find helpful, it's here:

http://speeddemosarchive.com/quake/bunnies.html

It's also linked from the FAQ from now.

I know for a fact that this text has helped at least one runner.

Lag.Com

Edit history:

Lag.Com: 2006-06-27 11:44:52 pm

2006-06-27 01:25:01 pm

sda loyalist

In general do not hold +forward all the time... unless you are me. Some say it's good to tap it every time you land, some never press it past the first jump. It's your choice, how comfortable are you with it?

I'm no pro bunnyhopper, and my 100m run reaches 550 or so. Smiley

Stubgaard

2006-06-27 01:55:41 pm

Hey Ho Let's Go

About 90% of the so-called 'pro' speedrunners tap +forward when they land, only a few top runners have adapted the non-forward-tapping style.

GinKo

Edit history:

GinKo: 2006-06-27 03:19:16 pm

2006-06-27 03:18:00 pm

1. I would need to see a demo to point what you should or shouldn't do.
2. Good bunnyhoping (not a 'power bunnyhoping') should be beetween 400-500, although a 380 may already earn you some time.

1. I never played another version of Quake except the original (and JoeQuake), so I can't help with this one.

I can think of three stages of bunnyhoping (before of those is zigzaging and running normaly):
*Straight: clumsy jumping while zigzaging. Many demos can be seen with these style in the early sda days.
*Normal: jumping freely without continualy pressing +forward. Looks a lot better and is much easier to fit in a run, since you can change your direction while in midair. From your description this is where you are.
*Power bunny: same as the normal style, but taping +forward while hitting the ground. Seems pretty much the same thing, but it's the difference from going 400-500 and going 500-600.

One thing that has imediate effect is a correct configuration of your input stuff. Two hints here:
*Always Run OFF. ('run always, don't always run', use bind +right, +forward, etc.).
*m_filter 1. Every runner should be aware of this thing, makes runs smoother and bunnyhoping a lot easier.
Also, make sure you're running the game at 72 fps.

I remember when I first managed to make the +forward tap. The speedometer magically passed through the 500 mark (which was almost unreachable before) with ease. My 100m time fell from 12.25 to 10.89 in a couple of days.

Later I improved it to a nice 10.50. After m_filter 1: 10.38. After I managed to do the Quake 2/Kay style (two turns in the air): 10.26. In this zip you can see these different styles and the difference between their times.http://www.freewebs.com/gincobloba/100m%5Fginko.dz

" I know for a fact that this text has helped at least one runner." Would I be one of those? Smiley

1. I would need to see a demo to point what you should or shouldn't do.
2. Good bunnyhoping (not a 'power bunnyhoping') should be beetween 400-500, although a 380 may already earn you some time.

1. I never played another version of Quake except the original (and JoeQuake), so I can't help with this one.

I can think of three stages of bunnyhoping (before of those is zigzaging and running normaly): 
*Straight: clumsy jumping while zigzaging. Many demos can be seen with these style in the early sda days.
*Normal: jumping freely without continualy pressing +forward. Looks a lot better and is much easier to fit in a run, since you can change your direction while in midair. From your description this is where you are.
*Power bunny: same as the normal style, but taping +forward while hitting the ground. Seems pretty much the same thing, but it's the difference from going 400-500 and going 500-600.

One thing that has imediate effect is a correct configuration of your input stuff. Two hints here: 
*Always Run OFF. ('run always, don't always run', use bind +right, +forward, etc.).
*m_filter 1. Every runner should be aware of this thing, makes runs smoother and bunnyhoping a lot easier.
Also, make sure you're running the game at 72 fps.

I remember when I first managed to make the +forward tap. The speedometer magically passed through the 500 mark (which was almost unreachable before) with ease. My 100m time fell from 12.25 to 10.89 in a couple of days.

Later I improved it to a nice 10.50. After m_filter 1: 10.38. After I managed to do the Quake 2/Kay style (two turns in the air): 10.26. In this zip you can see these different styles and the difference between their times.[url]http://www.freewebs.com/gincobloba/100m%5Fginko.dz[/url]

" I know for a fact that this text has helped at least one runner." Would I be one of those? :)

sshplur

2006-06-27 03:55:32 pm

'Run always, don't always run.' - Mandel? Grin

+speed and +always run have their differences and it comes down to personal preference as to which one you want to use. None are better than the other, they are just different.

After a while you can tell who's using +speed or +always run.

As for timing when to jump, keeping an eye on your speed-o-meter to jump when it reaches a speed of 464 or more. The timing depends on your configuration (side, forward and backspeeds, and your mouse sensitivity)*. For me, the first jump is more like 80 degrees, but you can worry about that when you get better.

*The same goes for a good angle for wall-running. Keep an eye on your speed and you've got your unique angle when it hits a constant speed of 464 (I've heard of speeds of 480).

GinKo

2006-06-27 06:09:00 pm

I noticed that when always run is ON the best wallhugging angle is very different. If you look at the e4m4 demos you can tell how the runner is playing.

golden_boy

2006-06-27 07:24:38 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

@ Mandel: Thanks for the bunny howto. I'm practically doing it that way now (accel jump followed by using only strafe and jump keys), but I'm losing speed drastically as soon as I let go of +forward. My first jump goes to 430-ish and then I just lose speed.

Probably not jumping soon enough, or not enough mouse movement... need more practice...

Doing the same thing while pressing +forward all the time, I can mostly keep above 400. I probably just need to practice some more months :-)

@ Ginko: Thanks for your demos, they are very helpful. It's astonishing that m_filter makes a difference, I always had it off because it seemed to hurt my aiming. (QW ppl think m_filter is evil)

@ sshplur, Ginko: "Always run" in the menu and "+speed" in the config are two different things??? what?

When I switched always run OFF in the menu and put +speed into my config, it had a DRASTIC effect. Suddenly, my sidespeed seems to be much too high. I practically move sideways (70 degree or such) as soon as I press strafe Shocked

What are your cl_*speed settings (for +speed and "always run" off)?

Mine are all 999, and with +speed I get this drastic sideways effect when just running forward and strafing. It goes away when I switch always run back on.

How do I permanently switch "always run" off in Joequake? When I disable it in the menu and restart JQ, it's magically back. (I'm stupid I guess.)

@ all: You're very friendly, thank you. I keep learning.

@ Mandel: Thanks for the bunny howto. I'm practically doing it that way now (accel jump followed by using only strafe and jump keys), but I'm losing speed drastically as soon as I let go of +forward. My first jump goes to 430-ish and then I just lose speed.

Probably not jumping soon enough, or not enough mouse movement... need more practice...

Doing the same thing while pressing +forward all the time, I can mostly keep above 400. I probably just need to practice some more months :-)

@ Ginko: Thanks for your demos, they are very helpful. It's astonishing that m_filter makes a difference, I always had it off because it seemed to hurt my aiming. (QW ppl think m_filter is evil)

@ sshplur, Ginko: "Always run" in the menu and "+speed" in the config are two different things??? what?

When I switched always run OFF in the menu and put +speed into my config, it had a DRASTIC effect. Suddenly, my sidespeed seems to be much too high. I practically move sideways (70 degree or such) as soon as I press strafe :o

What are your cl_*speed settings (for +speed and "always run" off)?

Mine are all 999, and with +speed I get this drastic sideways effect when just running forward and strafing. It goes away when I switch always run back on.

How do I permanently switch "always run" off in Joequake? When I disable it in the menu and restart JQ, it's magically back. (I'm stupid I guess.)

@ all: You're very friendly, thank you. I keep learning.

golden_boy

Edit history:

golden_boy: 2006-06-27 07:55:01 pm

2006-06-27 07:51:07 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

I'm losing speed drastically as soon as I let go of +forward. My first jump goes to 430-ish and then I just lose speed.

Quoting myself here, heh.

This problem (bhopping without +forward not working) seems to have gone away by using +speed instead of "always run".

The ways of the Quake are strange.

Still, I'd like some cl_forwardspeed and cl_sidespeed values from ppl who use +speed.

Stubgaard

2006-06-27 11:52:59 pm

Hey Ho Let's Go

Quote:

@ Mandel: Thanks for the bunny howto. I'm practically doing it that way now (accel jump followed by using only strafe and jump keys), but I'm losing speed drastically as soon as I let go of +forward. My first jump goes to 430-ish and then I just lose speed.

Don't trick yourself into learning it the 'easy' way first, i.e. holding +forward all the time. Believe me, you'll be much better off learning it the correct way to begin with. I can't name a single top runner that are holding down +forward all the time, and I can only name two top runners that are not using +forward at all (except for the first jump of course). As I said in my previous post, 90% of the top runners are tapping +forward when they land, so you might as well learn this technique Smiley

/end of rant

Lag.Com

2006-06-27 11:54:01 pm

sda loyalist

Oh, and in case you wanted to see how different my style was, my latest 100m demo. I use +speed, "q1-style" and always hold +forward.

Find something which works for you, and practice it. A lot.

golden_boy

2006-06-28 12:26:54 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

stubgaard, you're probably right. I'm fooling around a little atm but I'll settle on something in the end. I realize that pressing +forward all the time is wrong and stopped it a while ago. Just struggling for air control and timing right now.

lag.com, you get impressive speed with that "crappy" method.

any +speed users, cl_forwardspeed and cl_sidespeed plz?

sshplur

2006-06-28 06:48:00 am

I use the default settings.

cl_sidespeed 350
cl_forwardspeed 200
cl_backspeed 200

Rarely I use cl_backspeed 400. It might not stop me quicker as I like to believe, but I feel better with it on 400 for when I need to stop and start another bunny sequence. The stop at the Silver Key door on e1m2 is a good example.

Quote: "When I switched always run OFF in the menu and put +speed into my config, it had a DRASTIC effect. Suddenly, my sidespeed seems to be much too high. I practically move sideways (70 degree or such) as soon as I press strafe"

That's what I meant by +speed and +always run being different. Sidespeed is alot sharper with +speed. To keep it permanent just type and save it in your .cfg

Lag.Com

Edit history:

Lag.Com: 2006-06-28 09:43:48 am

2006-06-28 09:43:11 am

sda loyalist

I also suggest you come on IRC and chat about it.
#qdq!

Stubgaard

2006-06-28 09:49:43 am

Hey Ho Let's Go

Quote:

any +speed users, cl_forwardspeed and cl_sidespeed plz?

I know for a fact that lodis uses +speed, or at least he used to. I'll see if I can drag him in here.

lodis_

2006-06-28 10:01:50 am

yeah I use +speed, it was always faster for me than having always run on. but yeah, it took awhile to get used to. made wonders for me.

pressing forward makes that lil' difference speedwise, but if I have to make a sharp turn I'll skip it...but generally I'm slow as hell without it.

as for cl_*speed settings, I'll check when I get home, but I'm assuming they're default.

the valid values for those settings are 0-max allowed by the server(which also would be the default I think, I have to check)...so even if you set it to 999, it won't make a difference. I remember it made sense in qw back when I played a lot. can't remember why though!

Mandel

2006-06-28 12:01:39 pm

Mumma

I think it does make sense still even if it's higher than the corresponding sv_ variables. There's some relationship between the side- and forward variables... At least that's how it feels.

golden_boy

2006-06-28 08:42:35 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

I use the default settings.

cl_sidespeed 350
cl_forwardspeed 200
cl_backspeed 200

Gosh, with those settings it's much better. I can accel-jump again like I could with "always run". Only I get more speed and it seems more reliable with +speed (may be down to practice though.) Or maybe I'm just weird, or my muscle memory is different every day...

Try setting them all to 999 and see if it makes a difference. Many QW players seemed to swear by that. Another value pair that was propagated by source-divers is 400/508, but I don't remember which was what. Probably 400 forwardspeed and 508 side. And it's true that there is a relationship between them.

Quote:

To keep it permanent just type and save it in your .cfg

No, I mean Joequake won't let me turn _Always Run_ OFF permanently. +speed is in my autoexec.cfg, no problem. It's just that everytime I start Joequake, "always run" is enabled in the menu and I have to manually switch it off... Jozsef?

golden_boy

Edit history:

golden_boy: 2006-06-28 10:17:46 pm

2006-06-28 08:57:59 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

I think it does make sense still even if it's higher than the corresponding sv_ variables. There's some relationship between the side- and forward variables... At least that's how it feels.

Yeah, that's what I remember at least.

However (another secret unraveled), Joequake seems to turn on "always run" _when you set cl_forwardspeed above 200_ (!)

Putting cl_forwardspeed 200 in my config made Joequake come up with "always run" off. Putting in 400 seemed to make the "always run" option automatically turn ON. Which is not what you'd want, I guess.

Someone like Jozsef needs to explain why that is the case, or how this stuff works.

Edit: I just tested. Turning on "always run" in the menu gives me cl_forwardspeed 400. Turning it off makes cl_forwardspeed go back to the 200 from the config.

So, "always run" seems to double cl_forwardspeed. That means when you (as a +speed user) want to play with the relationship between forward- and sidespeed, you must keep forwardspeed at 200 and only alter cl_sidespeed.

I think.

Edit 2: Quoting

http://qdq.planetquake.gamespy.com/WallHug/speed.htm (should have found this earlier):

+speed. (...) the velocity that a client tries to move at in any particular direction is doubled; turning speed is increased by the value of cl_anglespeedkey; and acceleration is also apparently a little greater than normal.

and:

"Always Run" (...) doubling the value of the console variable cl_forwardspeed from its default of 200 to 400, and makes a similar change for cl_backspeed. However, strafing speed, turning and acceleration do not appear to be affected.

I take that to mean that +speed doubles the speed in all directions (plus the turning speed), while "always run" doubles only the forward (and backward) speed. That explains some things.

cl_anglespeedkey apparently is 1.5.

The relation between forward- and sidespeed values determines your movement angle while moving forward and strafing at the same time.

"Always run" changes this ratio by doubling cl_forwardspeed while leaving cl_sidespeed alone (= smaller deviation when strafing.) +speed treats them equally and thus doesn't change the strafing angle.

+speed also makes you turn faster (by way of applying cl_anglespeedkey), so when you strafe and turn in the same direction, you get a much more drastic effect than "always run" would give you.

This is exactly what happens during accel jumping/bunnyhopping, so that may explain why +speed makes a difference.

[quote]I think it does make sense still even if it's higher than the corresponding sv_ variables. There's some relationship between the side- and forward variables... At least that's how it feels.[/quote]

Yeah, that's what I remember at least.

However (another secret unraveled), Joequake seems to turn on "always run" _when you set cl_forwardspeed above 200_ (!)

Putting cl_forwardspeed 200 in my config made Joequake come up with "always run" off. Putting in 400 seemed to make the "always run" option automatically turn ON. Which is not what you'd want, I guess.

Someone like Jozsef needs to explain why that is the case, or how this stuff works.

Edit: I just tested. Turning on "always run" in the menu gives me cl_forwardspeed 400. Turning it off makes cl_forwardspeed go back to the 200 from the config.

So, "always run" seems to double cl_forwardspeed. That means when you (as a +speed user) want to play with the relationship between forward- and sidespeed, you must keep forwardspeed at 200 and only alter cl_sidespeed.

I think.

Edit 2: Quoting

http://qdq.planetquake.gamespy.com/WallHug/speed.htm (should have found this earlier):

+speed. (...) the velocity that a client tries to move at in any particular direction is doubled; turning speed is increased by the value of cl_anglespeedkey; and acceleration is also apparently a little greater than normal.

and:

"Always Run" (...) doubling the value of the console variable cl_forwardspeed from its default of 200 to 400, and makes a similar change for cl_backspeed. However, strafing speed, turning and acceleration do not appear to be affected.

I take that to mean that +speed doubles the speed in all directions (plus the turning speed), while "always run" doubles only the forward (and backward) speed. That explains some things.

cl_anglespeedkey apparently is 1.5.

The relation between forward- and sidespeed values determines your movement angle while moving forward and strafing at the same time.

"Always run" changes this ratio by doubling cl_forwardspeed while leaving cl_sidespeed alone (= smaller deviation when strafing.) +speed treats them equally and thus doesn't change the strafing angle.

+speed also makes you turn faster (by way of applying cl_anglespeedkey), so when you strafe and turn in the same direction, you get a much more drastic effect than "always run" would give you.

This is exactly what happens during accel jumping/bunnyhopping, so that may explain why +speed makes a difference.

[]Lardarse

2006-07-06 02:23:52 am

What's wrong with phpBB ?

Also note that the most recent version of JoeQuake doesn't by default save your settings.

You need to set cvar_savevars to either 1 or 2 (not sure what the difference is)

The reason that it is this way, is because QdQstats uses some of the cvars that would be saved for setting the stats that you want to start a level with for when doing a multi-level project.

13Homer

2006-07-06 11:59:27 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

cvar_savevars
Switch for the "writeconfig" command.
If set to 0 then writeconfig will save only archieved vars.
If 1, it'll save the ones which have other than default values.
And with value 2 it'll save ALL variables.
Its value is 0 by default.