Jak and Daxter

2009-04-18 05:33:41 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Death warping - Deaths are a separate category. ZenicReverie is free to attempt a death-free run if he wants to.

Save warping - If the Jax II run had save warping, then it's because the save warping slipped by Radix (likely, since he doesn't know anything about Playstation games :P)

UltimateDarius

2009-04-18 05:34:12 pm

Back in the game!

Quote from JackT:

I wouldn't worry about deathless if deaths means a quicker run - death warping is a speed trick.

Maybe he doesn't want the label?

ZenicReverie

2009-04-18 11:21:43 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from UltimateDarius:

Quote from JackT:

I wouldn't worry about deathless if deaths means a quicker run - death warping is a speed trick.

Maybe he doesn't want the label?

I don't mind doing a death warping run, although I'd want to be able to save at least a minute off a deathless time. The quickest death is dark eco, falling, or being eaten by the fish. Being hurt to die has a chance to trigger one of the cutscenes where Daxter yells at you, which probably wouldn't save any time.

I want to do a deathless to bump the current run, which I've done; although it could be better, I don't know if I'll get a deathless run again, but I'll continue to make attempts to lower the time until the end of the month. At the end of the month I'll submit for verification whatever I have. If that means the run I have is it, and it gets rejected because of the mistakes it has, then I'll come back to the game as a segmented run most likely. If it gets accepted though, I'll probably move on and let someone else attempt to get a better time. As much fun as I'm having with the game, it's difficult to find a 2 hour block of uninterrupted time. I think I'll stick with segmenting after I'm done with this game unless the game I'm running can be done in less than 30 minutes or so.

[quote="UltimateDarius"]
[quote="JackT"]
I wouldn't worry about deathless if deaths means a quicker run - death warping is a speed trick.
[/quote]

Maybe he doesn't want the label?
[/quote]

I don't mind doing a death warping run, although I'd want to be able to save at least a minute off a deathless time.  The quickest death is dark eco, falling, or being eaten by the fish.  Being hurt to die has a chance to trigger one of the cutscenes where Daxter yells at you, which probably wouldn't save any time.

I want to do a deathless to bump the current run, which I've done; although it could be better, I don't know if I'll get a deathless run again, but I'll continue to make attempts to lower the time until the end of the month.  At the end of the month I'll submit for verification whatever I have.  If that means the run I have is it, and it gets rejected because of the mistakes it has, then I'll come back to the game as a segmented run most likely.  If it gets accepted though, I'll probably move on and let someone else attempt to get a better time.  As much fun as I'm having with the game, it's difficult to find a 2 hour block of uninterrupted time.  I think I'll stick with segmenting after I'm done with this game unless the game I'm running can be done in less than 30 minutes or so.

ZenicReverie

2009-04-18 11:23:24 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from mikwuyma:

Save warping - If the Jax II run had save warping, then it's because the save warping slipped by Radix (likely, since he doesn't know anything about Playstation games :P)

I only mentioned it because the author comments for the game say he used it. I haven't actually watched the whole run, as I haven't played the game. It's on my list of games to get though, as is Jak III.

UltimateDarius

2009-04-19 01:28:35 am

Back in the game!

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Quote from mikwuyma:

Save warping - If the Jax II run had save warping, then it's because the save warping slipped by Radix (likely, since he doesn't know anything about Playstation games :P)

I only mentioned it because the author comments for the game say he used it. I haven't actually watched the whole run, as I haven't played the game. It's on my list of games to get though, as is Jak III.

Be warned, Jak II is NOTHING like Jak and Daxter. I can't say anything about Jak III.

Ascetic Swordsman

2009-04-19 01:39:21 am

I felt Jak and Daxter was similar to super mario 64/sunshine and banjo kazooie, while Jak 2/3 were more like Grand Theft Auto. It might've been just me.

ZenicReverie

2009-04-19 05:41:16 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Ascetic Swordsman:

I felt Jak and Daxter was similar to super mario 64/sunshine and banjo kazooie, while Jak 2/3 were more like Grand Theft Auto. It might've been just me.

I've heard the same comparison.

tenfoLd

2009-04-19 07:00:25 am

I thoroughly enjoyed the entire series (never played Jak X though).

mikwuyma

2009-04-19 09:58:20 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Quote from UltimateDarius:

Quote from JackT:

I wouldn't worry about deathless if deaths means a quicker run - death warping is a speed trick.

Maybe he doesn't want the label?

I don't mind doing a death warping run, although I'd want to be able to save at least a minute off a deathless time. The quickest death is dark eco, falling, or being eaten by the fish. Being hurt to die has a chance to trigger one of the cutscenes where Daxter yells at you, which probably wouldn't save any time.

Your run will bump off the current run regardless, since it's single-segment and such a big improvement.

mcbroiler

2009-04-19 10:59:12 am

Run, you pigeons. It's Robert Frost!

I think your current deathless run would be accepted no problem. It sounds amazing. Playing an hour and 42 minutes of a platformer without dying is pretty great!

But by all means, try to improve it. Smiley

ZenicReverie

2009-04-19 05:23:07 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from mikwuyma:

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Quote from UltimateDarius:

Quote from JackT:

I wouldn't worry about deathless if deaths means a quicker run - death warping is a speed trick.

Maybe he doesn't want the label?

I don't mind doing a death warping run, although I'd want to be able to save at least a minute off a deathless time. The quickest death is dark eco, falling, or being eaten by the fish. Being hurt to die has a chance to trigger one of the cutscenes where Daxter yells at you, which probably wouldn't save any time.

Your run will bump off the current run regardless, since it's single-segment and such a big improvement.

Cool, sounds good. Maybe I'll look into death warping over the next week to see where it will help. Like I said though, if it's not much more than a minute, than I think I'll stick with deathless.

Quote from mcbroiler:

I think your current deathless run would be accepted no problem. It sounds amazing. Playing an hour and 42 minutes of a platformer without dying is pretty great!

But by all means, try to improve it. Smiley

I'd agree if there wasn't a solid 35 second mistake, which I'll do my best to get rid of. Even if I fix it though, I may not get a better time since some of the more random elements went fairly well, like the lightning moles.

[quote="mikwuyma"]
[quote="ZenicReverie"]
[quote="UltimateDarius"]
[quote="JackT"]
I wouldn't worry about deathless if deaths means a quicker run - death warping is a speed trick.
[/quote]

Maybe he doesn't want the label?
[/quote]

I don't mind doing a death warping run, although I'd want to be able to save at least a minute off a deathless time.  The quickest death is dark eco, falling, or being eaten by the fish.  Being hurt to die has a chance to trigger one of the cutscenes where Daxter yells at you, which probably wouldn't save any time.[/quote]

Your run will bump off the current run regardless, since it's single-segment and such a big improvement.
[/quote]

Cool, sounds good.  Maybe I'll look into death warping over the next week to see where it will help.  Like I said though, if it's not much more than a minute, than I think I'll stick with deathless.

[quote="mcbroiler"]
I think your current deathless run would be accepted no problem.  It sounds amazing.  Playing an hour and 42 minutes of a platformer without dying is pretty great!

But by all means, try to improve it. :)
[/quote]
I'd agree if there wasn't a solid 35 second mistake, which I'll do my best to get rid of.  Even if I fix it though, I may not get a better time since some of the more random elements went fairly well, like the lightning moles.

NK3233

2009-04-19 05:58:44 pm

It's-a me, Stalin!

Obviously where there are random elements, segments would be much easier to handle, although the segmented run I saw was quite sloppy regarding these variables, could've done with some re-records.

You're coming on great with this run, good luck, whatever your decision.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2009-04-21 03:24:50 pm

2009-04-21 07:03:52 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

I'm going to stick with deathless, as the only places I can find to abuse death are those I mentioned before. I included the approximate savings based on some average testing.

Lost Precursor City - dying on the way back from the lightning platforms, avoids backtracking: 8 seconds.
Spider Cave - dying next to the first drill guy, avoids killing the drill guy: 5 seconds.
Spider Cave - after the spider tunnel, avoids web jumping: 3 seconds.

These savings are based on the time it takes to get back to the same spot Jak spawns at minus 3 seconds. The 3 seconds is about how long it takes to die and respawn.

I'm still trying to beat the old time, which I think will happen if I can get a good segment going. I had one, but then the game froze up. I checked the disc and it was covered with smudges. Oh the joys of having children. Every segment I've tried after that was been cursed by deaths and mistakes that have never occured before. Anyway, it's only Tuesday now, so if I can get another deathless run in half the time of the last, I should have one by the end of the month.

One last hurdle I'm facing is chopping the video so it all fits on disc in the highest quality. I'm afraid my dvd recorder may be dropping frames when I split the video, but Nate has offered to help determine if that's the case by piecing back the video himself. If it all works out, he should be able to do the same with the final run.

Edit: Nate says don't worry about it, it happens. I'll make an SP version of the video before I chop it up since he also said it might not make much of a difference in quality based on the game. We'll see if it does in the final product. At the very least I'll still have proof it was SS.

Would it be better to have a short PAUSE during a cutscene at the breaks, or should I just break it and live with the short skip/stutter? I'll do my best to avoid dialogue, maybe right at the end of the cutscene.

I'm going to stick with deathless, as the only places I can find to abuse death are those I mentioned before.  I included the approximate savings based on some average testing.

Lost Precursor City - dying on the way back from the lightning platforms, avoids backtracking: 8 seconds.
Spider Cave - dying next to the first drill guy, avoids killing the drill guy: 5 seconds.
Spider Cave - after the spider tunnel, avoids web jumping: 3 seconds.

These savings are based on the time it takes to get back to the same spot Jak spawns at minus 3 seconds.  The 3 seconds is about how long it takes to die and respawn.

I'm still trying to beat the old time, which I think will happen if I can get a good segment going.  I had one, but then the game froze up.  I checked the disc and it was covered with smudges.  Oh the joys of having children.  Every segment I've tried after that was been cursed by deaths and mistakes that have never occured before.  Anyway, it's only Tuesday now, so if I can get another deathless run in half the time of the last, I should have one by the end of the month.

[s]One last hurdle I'm facing is chopping the video so it all fits on disc in the highest quality.  I'm afraid my dvd recorder may be dropping frames when I split the video, but Nate has offered to help determine if that's the case by piecing back the video himself.  If it all works out, he should be able to do the same with the final run.[/s]

Edit: Nate says don't worry about it, it happens.  I'll make an SP version of the video before I chop it up since he also said it might not make much of a difference in quality based on the game.  We'll see if it does in the final product.  At the very least I'll still have proof it was SS.

Would it be better to have a short PAUSE during a cutscene at the breaks, or should I just break it and live with the short skip/stutter?  I'll do my best to avoid dialogue, maybe right at the end of the cutscene.

ZenicReverie

2009-04-23 02:10:29 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

I have a faster time now, but it's hard to be happy about it. It has deaths. Two stupid deaths.

The first death just doesn't make sense to me; I'm on a blue jump platform with blue eco flowing, and instead of jumping really high, I do this piddly normal jump and fall off the platform. I thought this cost a lot of time for some reason, so later on in the citadel, I try something different and die. It turns out the first death only costs about 40 seconds, and luckily the second is less than 10.

I'm going to continue to try for a better deathless, since I know it's completely possible. The most time savings was completely unexpected when I caught the muse really early. I'll practice on what I did to see how to repro easily. This surprised me so much I had a moment where I didn't know what to do next, so hopefully I can streamline that a bit.

Stupid deaths... if I didn't have them in this run I'd totally be PMing Mike to submit while it was burning to disc...

NK3233

2009-04-23 09:46:23 am

It's-a me, Stalin!

I found that you can skip the rising Dark Eco in the Precursor City and its cutscene, but you probably already knew that. It's risky but can be donr with a well executed rolling jump and spinning kick.

ZenicReverie

2009-04-23 10:08:52 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from JackT:

I found that you can skip the rising Dark Eco in the Precursor City and its cutscene, but you probably already knew that. It's risky but can be donr with a well executed rolling jump and spinning kick.

I didn't know this, do you have an example? Are you getting the Power Cell on top of the switch?

NK3233

2009-04-24 10:44:06 am

It's-a me, Stalin!

It's the part where the camera goes into a profile veiw and you have to ascend the tower. Instead of triggering the cutscene where you see the Dark Eco rising, you can skip the central platform where it starts.

ZenicReverie

2009-04-24 12:49:00 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from JackT:

It's the part where the camera goes into a profile veiw and you have to ascend the tower. Instead of triggering the cutscene where you see the Dark Eco rising, you can skip the central platform where it starts.

That includes skipping the power cell on that platform though right? Any thoughts on how to make up that one? The dark eco rising isn't such a big deal, but that cutscene is about 8 seconds. You sure it's not worth it?

NK3233

2009-04-24 01:16:59 pm

It's-a me, Stalin!

I've got a save right before it, so I'll try finding a way around it. I forgot the cutscene is necessary :/

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2009-04-24 02:39:55 pm

2009-04-24 02:17:21 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

This should all be obvious, but I thought it might be helpful for anyone else trying to run the game that didn't look at all the ways to move in this game.

Running: This is about the slowest you can go. So let's call this speed: 1.0
Running Spinning: Spinning while running helps kill off lurkers, and doesn't reduce speed noticeably. speed: 1.05
Punch Running: Basically running while spamming square. After the first punch, you shouldn't have any slow down. speed: 0.7
Long Jump: Fastest you can go without blue eco. This is pretty obvious, but look for every chance to do this you can. speed: 0.5

Blue Eco Running: This makes you slighty faster. speed: 0.75
Blue Eco Punch Running: The effect of blue eco on this and long jump is hardly noticeable. speed: 0.6
Blue Eco Long Jump: Most likely the increased speed comes from the short time you're running. speed: 0.45

Running Jumping: Bunny hopping shows no significant gains. speed: 1.0
Running Jumping Spinning: Slows you down quite a bit, avoid it when you can. speed: 1.2
Running Double Jumping: The second jump will actually slow your forward momentum. Minimize double jumping. speed: 1.15
Running Double Jumping Spinning: Spinning will slow your forward momentum even more and cause you to slow your fall. speed: 1.3 - 1.4 (depends on when you start the spin)

Blue Eco Running Jumping: This is actually slightly faster than just running with blue eco, and I'm not sure why. speed: 0.70
Blue Eco Running Jumping Spinning: Once again slower than other options. speed: 0.85
Blue Eco Running Double Jumping and Blue Evo Running Double Jumping Spinning were not tested, as the blue eco would run out and these would most likely show slower.

Swimming: Basic swimming, holding one direction. speed: 1.0
Dive Swimming: When you dive under the water you can swim slightly faster. speed: 0.9
Tap Swimming: This is where you continuously tap one direction to swim. There's an example in the OPs videos. speed: 0.7

Wading Water: This is when you're in shallow water, but you're not quite swimming. speed: 1.0
Wading Water Jumping: Bunny hopping through the water. This is best. speed: 0.8
Wading Water Double Jumping: Double jumping again slows us down, but it's faster than just wading. speed: 0.9

Blue Eco doesn't have any significant impact on swimming or wading through water that I could notice.

The timing is based on the three 1.0 speeds crossing a distance that took 10 seconds. I'd then get an average of 5 tests for each speed across the same distance.

Some summary notes now:

Punch through enemies instead of spinning, it's faster.
Bunny hop in shallow water, it's faster.
Dive jumping (pressing square in the air will cause the dive, and you can jump as you hit the ground to gain some air) is something I haven't looked into, as I just found out about it, so it's not tested, but it might help in wading water.
Inclines were not tested.
Punch to activate switches and get power cells, you'll gain a few seconds across the run by doing this as you won't have to worry about the slow down.
Minimize spinning in the air, it slows you down. Minimize double jumping, it'll slow you down as well.

Suggested by JackT:
Jump Height - The approximate order of jump height is:
Jump -> Double Jump -> Double Jump + Spin -> Dive + Jump + Spin -> Crouch Jump + Spin == Roll Jump + Jump + Spin
I don't include Jump spin because you might as well just double jump.

Hanging on an edge and jumping up costs half a second to a full second, so avoid it.

This should all be obvious, but I thought it might be helpful for anyone else trying to run the game that didn't look at all the ways to move in this game.

Running: This is about the slowest you can go. So let's call this speed: 1.0
Running Spinning: Spinning while running helps kill off lurkers, and doesn't reduce speed noticeably. speed: 1.05
Punch Running: Basically running while spamming square.  After the first punch, you shouldn't have any slow down. speed: 0.7
Long Jump: Fastest you can go without blue eco.  This is pretty obvious, but look for every chance to do this you can. speed: 0.5

Blue Eco Running: This makes you slighty faster. speed: 0.75
Blue Eco Punch Running: The effect of blue eco on this and long jump is hardly noticeable. speed: 0.6
Blue Eco Long Jump: Most likely the increased speed comes from the short time you're running. speed: 0.45

Running Jumping: Bunny hopping shows no significant gains. speed: 1.0
Running Jumping Spinning: Slows you down quite a bit, avoid it when you can. speed: 1.2
Running Double Jumping: The second jump will actually slow your forward momentum.  Minimize double jumping. speed: 1.15
Running Double Jumping Spinning: Spinning will slow your forward momentum even more and cause you to slow your fall. speed: 1.3 - 1.4 (depends on when you start the spin)

Blue Eco Running Jumping: This is actually slightly faster than just running with blue eco, and I'm not sure why. speed: 0.70
Blue Eco Running Jumping Spinning: Once again slower than other options. speed: 0.85
Blue Eco Running Double Jumping and Blue Evo Running Double Jumping Spinning were not tested, as the blue eco would run out and these would most likely show slower.

Swimming: Basic swimming, holding one direction. speed: 1.0
Dive Swimming: When you dive under the water you can swim slightly faster. speed: 0.9
Tap Swimming: This is where you continuously tap one direction to swim.  There's an example in the OPs videos.  speed: 0.7

Wading Water: This is when you're in shallow water, but you're not quite swimming. speed: 1.0
Wading Water Jumping: Bunny hopping through the water.  This is best. speed: 0.8
Wading Water Double Jumping: Double jumping again slows us down, but it's faster than just wading. speed: 0.9

Blue Eco doesn't have any significant impact on swimming or wading through water that I could notice.

The timing is based on the three 1.0 speeds crossing a distance that took 10 seconds.  I'd then get an average of 5 tests for each speed across the same distance.

Some summary notes now:

Punch through enemies instead of spinning, it's faster.
Bunny hop in shallow water, it's faster.
Dive jumping (pressing square in the air will cause the dive, and you can jump as you hit the ground to gain some air) is something I haven't looked into, as I just found out about it, so it's not tested, but it might help in wading water.
Inclines were not tested.
Punch to activate switches and get power cells, you'll gain a few seconds across the run by doing this as you won't have to worry about the slow down.
Minimize spinning in the air, it slows you down.  Minimize double jumping, it'll slow you down as well.

Suggested by JackT:
Jump Height - The approximate order of jump height is:
Jump -> Double Jump -> Double Jump + Spin -> Dive + Jump + Spin -> Crouch Jump + Spin == Roll Jump + Jump + Spin
I don't include Jump spin because you might as well just double jump.

Hanging on an edge and jumping up costs half a second to a full second, so avoid it.

NK3233

2009-04-24 02:30:15 pm

It's-a me, Stalin!

Might I add to jump the highest you should crouch jump and spin kick. The longest jump is achieved by roll jumping. It's also possible to gain forward momentum from sliding down an unwalkable surface and jumping e.g. the Precursor Basin entrance slope, although not sure if this would be useful Tongue

Nice guide, ZR.

ZenicReverie

2009-04-24 02:46:49 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from JackT:

Might I add to jump the highest you should crouch jump and spin kick. The longest jump is achieved by roll jumping. It's also possible to gain forward momentum from sliding down an unwalkable surface and jumping e.g. the Precursor Basin entrance slope, although not sure if this would be useful Tongue

Nice guide, ZR.

Thanks, I added something about jumping height. Jumping distance should be pretty obvious, even more obvious than what I posted, so I left it out, but yes, roll jumping is the longest. If you're reaching for distance and you're going to a lower elevation, you can actually add a spin to the roll jump, which will carry you a little farther.

There aren't many places to take advantage of unwalkable surfaces sadly. I think the best place that will speed you up is after the Lost Precursor City, off the piece of it, that'll take you faster into the water than just jumping in. The place in Misty Island where I slide on the unwalkable area is actually pretty slow, so I think the Precursor Basin place is likely caused by the incline.

I've actually tried getting into Precursor Basin without the zoomer, but there's an invisible wall stopping you at the very top.

[quote="JackT"]
Might I add to jump the highest you should crouch jump and spin kick. The longest jump is achieved by roll jumping. It's also possible to gain forward momentum from sliding down an unwalkable surface and jumping e.g. the Precursor Basin entrance slope, although not sure if this would be useful :P Nice guide, ZR.
[/quote]
Thanks, I added something about jumping height.  Jumping distance should be pretty obvious, even more obvious than what I posted, so I left it out, but yes, roll jumping is the longest.  If you're reaching for distance and you're going to a lower elevation, you can actually add a spin to the roll jump, which will carry you a little farther.

There aren't many places to take advantage of unwalkable surfaces sadly.  I think the best place that will speed you up is after the Lost Precursor City, off the piece of it, that'll take you faster into the water than just jumping in.  The place in Misty Island where I slide on the unwalkable area is actually pretty slow, so I think the Precursor Basin place is likely caused by the incline.

I've actually tried getting into Precursor Basin without the zoomer, but there's an invisible wall stopping you at the very top.

Stu Rodriguez

2009-04-24 02:58:50 pm

Quote from ZenicReverie:

I've actually tried getting into Precursor Basin without the zoomer, but there's an invisible wall stopping you at the very top.

Actually, it is possible to get there on foot
(skip the first minute of the video)

sTuN xXx

2009-04-24 04:11:09 pm

Quote from Stu Rodriguez:

Quote from ZenicReverie:

I've actually tried getting into Precursor Basin without the zoomer, but there's an invisible wall stopping you at the very top.

Actually, it is possible to get there on foot
(skip the first minute of the video)

I remember doing this glitch about 2 years ago. I used to glitch around that whole entire thing. I wish my PS2 wasn't broken or I could show you guys the possiblities that you have in there.

ZenicReverie

2009-04-24 05:11:06 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from sTuN xXx:

Quote from Stu Rodriguez:

Quote from ZenicReverie:

I've actually tried getting into Precursor Basin without the zoomer, but there's an invisible wall stopping you at the very top.

Actually, it is possible to get there on foot
(skip the first minute of the video)

I remember doing this glitch about 2 years ago. I used to glitch around that whole entire thing. I wish my PS2 wasn't broken or I could show you guys the possiblities that you have in there.

Well, it doesn't seem like there would be anything helpful in there on foot to a run. I never tried to climb the surrounding rocks. I'm not really that good at looking for glitches like that, so if anyone finds anything please post it.