Improved Doom 3 Nightmare run

Kibbo

Edit history:

Kibbo: 2016-01-24 02:36:06 pm

Kibbo: 2015-10-19 01:07:33 pm

Kibbo: 2015-09-27 11:08:04 am

Kibbo: 2015-09-26 05:45:43 pm

Kibbo: 2010-03-12 01:01:12 pm

2007-11-20 11:23:51 pm

TIOLET!

Since the old Doom 3 thread was getting kinda big and hard to navigate, because it had been used for like 5-6 runs, I decided to gather all the information about the new and improved Doom 3 Nightmare run in this new thread instead, to make it easier to keep track of things.

The goal with this run is not to beat the current Marine run, but to improve the old Nightmare run as much as I can. If I beat the Marine run again, then so be it. Another initial goal was to do the run in less segments than the previous run, but after discovering how to pull off grenade/rocket jumps on Nightmare that goal was removed. Pulling off such boosts on Nightmare in realtime has nothing to do with skill, the margins are so small so the only way to nail it is with extreme luck manipulation. Whenever there is a boost in a level I will most likely have to do that boost in a separate segment, depending on how close to the beginning/exit it is, but it will be at least 2 segments for those levels.

The main reasons I decided to make a new Nightmare run are the ugly editing of the old run, and the 2-minute penalty which I have no idea where it came from, and finally I just knew I could do it better. Looking back at the editing of the old run, it just looks so ugly, but at the time it seemed like a good idea to keep it like that for verification reasons. And I have no idea why the run was timed to 1:25 when it should've been 1:23:xx. The only conclusion is that the actual time spent in menus was added to the total time of the run (speculation, I can't get that time together in any other way), and as far as I know that hasn't been done for any other PC run. At the time the old run was done I was very pleased with it, but I always had a feeling that I could do a better job.

Important note on the timing: Up to level 11 "old run" represents the time I got on my previous attempt at improving the 1:25:11 run. From level 12 and on "old run" represents the time from the 1:25:11 run.

Update 21st October 2009: Mike has also agreed to change the timing method for Doom 3. Instead of stopping the clock when the fade-to-black completes the clock is stopped when you activate the "exit level button", which is very easy to spot since all animations stop at that point. This was changed because I discovered that the fade-to-black is indeed not a timed event that's fixed, the time it takes will vary and could have a severe impact on the final time. All the previous attempts have been retimed to fit the new method.

YouTube playlist.

Time comparison
Level 1: Mars City
New run: 1:24.9
Old run: 1:27.966

Level 2: Mars City Underground
New run: 4:25.983 done in 5 segments.
Old run: 4:46 done in 2 segments.

Level 3: Mars City revisited
New run: 1:53.45 done in 2 segments.
Old run: 1:59.433

Level 4: Administration
New run: 1:40.116 done in 2 segments.
Old run: 1:44.433 done in 2 segments.

Level 5: Alpha Labs 1
New run: 1:58.7 done in 3 segments.
Old run: 2:10.766

Level 6: Alpha Labs 2
New run: 1:58.166 done in 4 segments.
Old run: 2:08.4

Level 7: Alpha Labs 3
New run: 2:53.833 done in 3 segments.
Old run: 3:06.4

Level 8: Alpha Labs 4
New run: 1:45.883 done in 4 segments.
Old run: 1:58.4

Level 9: EnPro Plant
New run: 3:19.066 done in 4 segments.
Old run: 3:31.866 done in 2 segments.

Level 10: Communications Transfer
New run: 2:32.667 done in 4 segments.
Old run: 2:43.8 done in 2 segments.

Level 11: Communications
New run:
Old run: 5:42.866 <--- ~45 seconds faster than the 1:09 Marine run at this point.

Thread title:

Since the old Doom 3 thread was getting kinda big and hard to navigate, because it had been used for like 5-6 runs, I decided to gather all the information about the new and improved Doom 3 Nightmare run in this new thread instead, to make it easier to keep track of things.

The goal with this run is not to beat the current Marine run, but to improve the old Nightmare run as much as I can. If I beat the Marine run again, then so be it. Another initial goal was to do the run in less segments than the previous run, but after discovering how to pull off grenade/rocket jumps on Nightmare that goal was removed. Pulling off such boosts on Nightmare in realtime has nothing to do with skill, the margins are so small so the only way to nail it is with extreme luck manipulation. Whenever there is a boost in a level I will most likely have to do that boost in a separate segment, depending on how close to the beginning/exit it is, but it will be at least 2 segments for those levels.

The main reasons I decided to make a new Nightmare run are the ugly editing of the old run, and the 2-minute penalty which I have no idea where it came from, and finally I just knew I could do it better. Looking back at the editing of the old run, it just looks so ugly, but at the time it seemed like a good idea to keep it like that for verification reasons. And I have no idea why the run was timed to 1:25 when it should've been 1:23:xx. The only conclusion is that the actual time spent in menus was added to the total time of the run (speculation, I can't get that time together in any other way), and as far as I know that hasn't been done for any other PC run. At the time the old run was done I was very pleased with it, but I always had a feeling that I could do a better job.

Important note on the timing: Up to level 11 "old run" represents the time I got on my previous attempt at improving the 1:25:11 run. From level 12 and on "old run" represents the time from the 1:25:11 run.

Update 21st October 2009: Mike has also agreed to change the timing method for Doom 3. Instead of stopping the clock when the fade-to-black completes the clock is stopped when you activate the "exit level button", which is very easy to spot since all animations stop at that point. This was changed because I discovered that the fade-to-black is indeed not a timed event that's fixed, the time it takes will vary and could have a severe impact on the final time. All the previous attempts have been retimed to fit the new method.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=035E04320DF218AE]YouTube playlist[/url].

Time comparison
[u]Level 1: Mars City[/u]
New run: 1:24.9
Old run: 1:27.966

[u]Level 2: Mars City Underground[/u]
New run: 4:25.983 done in 5 segments.
Old run: 4:46 done in 2 segments.

[u]Level 3: Mars City revisited[/u]
New run: 1:53.45 done in 2 segments.
Old run: 1:59.433

[u]Level 4: Administration[/u]
New run: 1:40.116 done in 2 segments.
Old run: 1:44.433 done in 2 segments.

[u]Level 5: Alpha Labs 1[/u]
New run: 1:58.7 done in 3 segments.
Old run: 2:10.766

[u]Level 6: Alpha Labs 2[/u]
New run: 1:58.166 done in 4 segments.
Old run: 2:08.4

[u]Level 7: Alpha Labs 3[/u]
New run: 2:53.833 done in 3 segments.
Old run: 3:06.4

[u]Level 8: Alpha Labs 4[/u]
New run: 1:45.883 done in 4 segments.
Old run: 1:58.4

[u]Level 9: EnPro Plant[/u]
New run: 3:19.066 done in 4 segments.
Old run: 3:31.866 done in 2 segments.

[u]Level 10: Communications Transfer[/u]
New run: 2:32.667 done in 4 segments.
Old run: 2:43.8 done in 2 segments.

[u]Level 11: Communications[/u]
New run:
Old run: 5:42.866 <--- ~45 seconds faster than the 1:09 Marine run at this point.

TheVoid

Edit history:

TheVoid: 2007-11-21 08:29:05 am

2007-11-21 12:59:01 am

Much better this way to keep track of the project.

Hmm, 45 seconds faster than the Marine run already? I bet tagh_azog isn't going to like that if you keep it up Wink

On the other hand, it can give him a new target to shoot for again...

You've improved the levels quite a bit so far, keep it going Smiley

Kibbo

2007-11-21 01:13:34 am

TIOLET!

According to tagh it is possible to get 1:07:xx using the exact same route as he did, just by hammering out the small misses in his run. I'm not suprised if I end up with a 1:08 run, but that will only happen if I more or less ace everything (like I planned on doing anything else).

xDrJx

Edit history:

xDrJx: 2007-11-21 01:07:05 pm

2007-11-21 01:06:28 pm

I really liked the editing in the old run much better then in the marine run. But that's just my personal taste anyway. It's another story penalty-wise though.

Kibbo

Edit history:

Kibbo: 2007-11-21 05:05:16 pm

2007-11-21 05:00:27 pm

TIOLET!

Well, the main thing is that I decided to do as smooth transitions as possible in this run, using autosaves and quicksaves only.

Autosaves won't give me any save penalty, and by using the quicksave function I don't have to enter the menu to save, so I can make really smooth mid-level segment transitions. Believe me, if you don't keep your eyes open you won't even notice them, not even tagh_azog did until I pointed out where in the testvideo it occured. I should also point out that I don't cut out any timed frames in the process either, so the time doesn't get affected by the editing.

I have done some tests on the first segment in Monorail Skybridge, and I will definitely have that segment done by the end of this week. Only hard part is to kill the first revenant with only one shotgun blast, it's possible but it requires quite a bit of luck.

tagh_azog

2007-11-21 06:48:31 pm

piece of cake!

Not a bit of luck, just run into him, really into him and shot him at his face.
The only thing request luck is if the revenant is going to hit you with his fists, the shot will be missed, because the revenant's head goes back, and the shot becomes a partial shot. (Also you can get killed by him on nightmare with this^^)
With some tries you'll get the thing, no really luck.

The new thread is a good idea afterall Smiley

Kibbo

2007-11-21 07:19:30 pm

TIOLET!

The difference is that in the Marine run you throw a grenade at that revenant as well, so he is down to like 40% health when you hit him with the shotgun. I don't have enough grenades to waste one on that revenant, so I have to take 100% health in just one shot, and with the retarded shotgun spread in Doom 3 and the range in that particular situation, it certainly is based on luck.

First successful, crappy as usual. Only one second faster than the old run, but it can be done a lot faster. The only shortcut that has to go is the one in the beginning where you drop out of the bridge to the side. I start the level with 10HP and on Nightmare you need 50-60 to survive the drop, even though the soulcube is charged at the beginning it takes too long for it to regenerate my health.

tagh_azog

2007-11-21 07:54:08 pm

piece of cake!

No, I wanted to do the shots without the grenades too, but I did the level in only one segment so I didn't want to waste my time redo the level because of missing shots^^

you can see everywhere else I killed the revenants in one shot. The best moment to shot them is when they are going to launch another missile (cause their head goes on front of you)

Anyway, I don't think you'll miss your tries because of these shots Smiley

Kibbo

Edit history:

Kibbo: 2007-11-21 10:22:24 pm

2007-11-21 08:30:42 pm

TIOLET!

And that's another thing. On Marine you can get hit by the missiles without the run being over, but on Nightmare they do 40+ damage each.

I just had about 20 attempts ruined by the revenant not dying from one shot, even though everything was lined up perfectly, shooting missiles and so on. Maybe there is yet another factor on Nightmare making your shotgun less accurate or something, because the revenants only die from one shot 20% of the time even when you shove that gun right up their nostrils.

Anyway, had a second semi-successful run coming in another 4 seconds faster. The first revenant refused to die, the elevator fight got slightly messed up because the grenade missed and just after the elevator the maggots ran away instead of attacking me, so I had to wait for them with the chainsaw. I feel confident that once I get everything together here I will par the Marine run for this stretch, even without the small shortcut in the beginning.

Edit: Getting a little better, another 3 seconds shaved.

Edit: Another 2 seconds shaved. If the last revenant in this segment hadn't decide to go Matrix on me and dodge my plasma balls, I would've been about a second faster than the Marine run here, and 13 seconds faster than the old Nightmare run.

Edit: Managed to shave another second on this stretch. I have now tied the Marine time and improved the Nightmare record with 12 seconds for this stretch. I had a small hangup in the fight just after the first 2 revenants, so I can still do it slightly faster.

And that's another thing. On Marine you can get hit by the missiles without the run being over, but on Nightmare they do 40+ damage each.

I just had about 20 attempts ruined by the revenant not dying from one shot, even though everything was lined up perfectly, shooting missiles and so on. Maybe there is yet another factor on Nightmare making your shotgun less accurate or something, because the revenants only die from one shot 20% of the time even when you shove that gun right up their nostrils.

Anyway, had a second semi-successful run coming in another 4 seconds faster. The first revenant refused to die, the elevator fight got slightly messed up because the grenade missed and just after the elevator the maggots ran away instead of attacking me, so I had to wait for them with the chainsaw. I feel confident that once I get everything together here I will par the Marine run for this stretch, even without the small shortcut in the beginning.

Edit: Getting a little better, another 3 seconds shaved.

Edit: Another 2 seconds shaved. If the last revenant in this segment hadn't decide to go Matrix on me and dodge my plasma balls, I would've been about a second faster than the Marine run here, and 13 seconds faster than the old Nightmare run.

Edit: Managed to shave another second on this stretch. I have now tied the Marine time and improved the Nightmare record with 12 seconds for this stretch. I had a small hangup in the fight just after the first 2 revenants, so I can still do it slightly faster.

TheVoid

2007-11-21 10:51:43 pm

As the title suggests.

(He made me do it...)

Kibbo

2007-11-22 12:18:36 am

TIOLET!

Videotime!

I know I mentioned that I wasn't going to post any videos unless I need opinions on something, and this time I need opinions on my anti-theft (you will know what it is if you watch the video) method I'm trying out. I need to know if it's disturbing or anything.

Yes, this is the video where I tie the Marine run, and as you can see I can do it slightly faster.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CGKFN5SC

tagh_azog

2007-11-22 12:33:57 am

piece of cake!

not so hard to tie the marine run with segmented levels... (apart from if there are impossible shortcuts to pull off in)

Then, how will you exactly do the second part of the level (the shortcut) ?
Anyway, good luck with it Smiley

Ok, I've seen the shot missed to the pinky, lost 1 second. Good job for the rest!

Also, yes, the anti-theft is disturbing, but only the second!
at the very begining of the level there is no problem, don't show it twice! (useless btw)

Kibbo

Edit history:

Kibbo: 2007-11-22 08:44:27 am

2007-11-22 12:48:53 am

TIOLET!

Unfortunately I think I have to do it a few times in each level, in case they find a way to edit it out without making the run look too suspicious. I think I have to choose 2, maybe 3, strategic spots in the level where it's very hard to edit it out without totally breaking the video. Right in the beginning it's too easy to edit it out, and then just double some frames to make it look normal. Suggestions are welcome, that's why I show it.

As for the segment with the shortcut, quite simple. Kill the imp, soulcube the revenant behind me (I have tested this out and the soulcube will ALWAYS go after that revenant), kill the 2 pinkys then do the shortcut and save. For the shortcut I will do a really small grenade boost which will take away maybe 20HP at most, do the slope jump, and since I just cubed a revenant I will have enough health left to make a second grenade jump up on the last set of pipes.

Edit: Yay, another 2 seconds shaved off after nailing everything in the segment. This means that the Nightmare time for this stretch is improved with 14 seconds, and I'm 2 seconds faster than the Marine run. Another bonus is that I managed to end the segment with more health this time, 43HP instead of 25, which allow me to be a little more careless in the beginning of the next segment. As usual I won't call it a day just yet, there might be more seconds to get here.

Edit: Final time for this segment is 1:15, which is 14 seconds faster than the old run and 2 seconds faster than the Marine run. It's also worth noting that this segment covers about 1/3 of the level, so the total improvement will be much higher in the end, especially for the old Nightmare run since it didn't use the grenade boost shortcut.

Unfortunately I think I have to do it a few times in each level, in case they find a way to edit it out without making the run look too suspicious. I think I have to choose 2, maybe 3, strategic spots in the level where it's very hard to edit it out without totally breaking the video. Right in the beginning it's too easy to edit it out, and then just double some frames to make it look normal. Suggestions are welcome, that's why I show it.

As for the segment with the shortcut, quite simple. Kill the imp, soulcube the revenant behind me (I have tested this out and the soulcube will ALWAYS go after that revenant), kill the 2 pinkys then do the shortcut and save. For the shortcut I will do a really small grenade boost which will take away maybe 20HP at most, do the slope jump, and since I just cubed a revenant I will have enough health left to make a second grenade jump up on the last set of pipes.

Edit: Yay, another 2 seconds shaved off after nailing everything in the segment. This means that the Nightmare time for this stretch is improved with 14 seconds, and I'm 2 seconds faster than the Marine run. Another bonus is that I managed to end the segment with more health this time, 43HP instead of 25, which allow me to be a little more careless in the beginning of the next segment. As usual I won't call it a day just yet, there might be more seconds to get here.

Edit: Final time for this segment is 1:15, which is 14 seconds faster than the old run and 2 seconds faster than the Marine run. It's also worth noting that this segment covers about 1/3 of the level, so the total improvement will be much higher in the end, especially for the old Nightmare run since it didn't use the grenade boost shortcut.

xDrJx

Edit history:

xDrJx: 2007-11-22 12:29:10 pm

2007-11-22 12:27:56 pm

Don't think it's disturbing, especially when you look at this stealing going on. But what about putting a watermark at those hard to pull off points in the video? Must be small and transparent, somewhere near/in the health bar area or so, where it's not easily cropped out.
Anyway, nice snipped making hunger for the final thing Tongue

tagh_azog

Edit history:

tagh_azog: 2007-11-22 01:08:14 pm

2007-11-22 01:07:40 pm

piece of cake!

I don't remember but when the console is activated you can't move or do something, so the only ways to activate it is in SAS for example! That's why he used it at these places.

The suggestion is to ask to HL2DQ how they did to put runners on the video. Because I know how to put your name in the whole video on a corner but this is a very long process! Perhaps HL2DQ has a software or whatever to make it easier.

xDrJx

Edit history:

xDrJx: 2007-11-22 01:28:56 pm

2007-11-22 01:27:31 pm

Just make a simple avisynth script, so it wont take any additional time while encoding if you are using MeGUI or so, or use the predefined filters in VDub or Avidemux or whatever. That way you just have to make a unique picture, place it somewhere in the video, specify the frames where to appear and some parameters.

Kibbo

2007-11-22 06:02:53 pm

TIOLET!

You can't move around, but things around you still do. The fading of light in the airlock is quite hard to edit out without breaking the video, and the elevator ride as well since that elevator doesn't have solid walls. Imagine doing it in the CPU complex elevator with the enormous lava chamber on the side, try cutting that out Tongue

xDrJx

Edit history:

xDrJx: 2007-11-22 07:03:17 pm

2007-11-22 06:59:23 pm

I'm not quite sure what you mean. You can easily overlay an image when encoding your fraps captures. The sample below looks bad because I just had paint at hand here. That way you don't have to bother with the console while running.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=QENJB3WQ

EDIT:
Just got it, sorry, hard day at work Roll Eyes

Kibbo

2007-11-22 07:08:03 pm

TIOLET!

I know how to do overlays and such, but the problem is that it's not exactly appreciated around here to use that kind of watermarks.

xDrJx

Edit history:

xDrJx: 2007-11-22 10:22:29 pm

2007-11-22 10:19:42 pm

I did not meant to imply otherwise, like I said, long day.
In that case I guess your anti-theft system seems to be the best alternative, considering it's in-game. Still, the problem remains then, that you have to do it at points hard to pull off without losing any time. Does the Doom3 engine allow scripted on-screen messages? Then again, this wouldn't be much different then a faded overlays.

AjAX

Edit history:

AjAX: 2007-11-24 04:31:40 am

2007-11-24 04:30:42 am

maybe a bind like in multiplayer, something like bind talk button, bind unknown key <message here> or sth like that IDk.

EDIT: I still prefer an overlay like in the video the other guy did.

slYnki

2007-11-24 05:01:46 am

XXY

Always been a quiet fan of your work, Kib, and I wish you the best of luck on this project. Amazing times, can't wait to see this thing finished. Wow, I should not eat toast before posting. Took me like 5 tries to spell "always" correctly o_O;

Kibbo

2007-11-24 11:27:22 pm

TIOLET!

Apparently there is a bug in the game which allow you to warp past level 1 and 2. Unfortunately this bug only works for some people, and therefore mikwuyma decided to classify it as mysterious teleporting, thus making it illegal in SDA runs. For me it's a good thing since I'm one of the people who can't get the bug to work ;D. Also, on Nightmare the bug will make you skip the soulcube, making it completely useless for a Nightmare run anyway.

Next week I'm going to attempt the second segment of Monorail Skybridge, which will only be like 20-25 seconds long since it will only include the shortcut with the grenade boosts. So there will probably be time to attempt the third and final segment of the level as well.

tagh_azog

2007-11-25 01:13:52 am

piece of cake!

I'm curious to know how this bug works Huh?

Kibbo

2007-11-25 01:17:16 am

TIOLET!

In the beginning of level 1, just jump over the railing and die. Wait for the death menu to appear and choose restart level. For some people the game loads up level 3 (revisit to Mars City) instead of level 1, and voila, you skipped level 1 and 2 and gained ~6 minutes. But as I said, this makes you lose the soulcube on Nightmare so in a Nightmare run you would lose those 6 minutes in the next 4-5 levels already.