Free scroll.. legit or not ?

Caracarn

2011-07-30 11:20:03 pm

Quote from Creaphis:

Let's just ban PC games.

That would include banning Quake, which I don't think is going to happen :p

ridd3r.

2011-07-31 12:53:18 am

we have lift off

Quote from Creaphis:

Let's just ban PC games.

All console players who want to have universal rules and don't care about PC running just stop posting in this thread. You're wasting everyones time.

Quote from TheVoid:

Let's just ban the morons that use this kind of crap. Whoever uses that kind of stuff, scripts, turbo functions, macros, etc. has no respect for true speedrunning in my opinion.

That's basically exactly the same as the post above yours, no use whatsoever. The issue is being discussed with interesting and valid points raised and you're just ignoring all of them and suggesting... what exactly? You haven't stated your opinion on free scrollers at all.

In my opinion the topic has been discussed a fair bit and it doesn't look like much more is coming out of the thread. The guys against it basically just say it's against the spirit of Speedrunning, but none of them can suggest any sensible way to cap free scrolling, or even bother addressing the other points at all. I'm obviously biased in my view (though I don't even use mousewheel in any of my runs), but it seems clear that free scrollers have to be accepted. If people disagree with this view point then please address the points raised.

[quote="Creaphis"]Let's just ban PC games.[/quote]

All console players who want to have universal rules and don't care about PC running just stop posting in this thread. You're wasting everyones time.

[quote="TheVoid"]Let's just ban the morons that use this kind of crap. Whoever uses that kind of stuff, scripts, turbo functions, macros, etc. has no respect for true speedrunning in my opinion.[/quote]

That's basically exactly the same as the post above yours, no use whatsoever. The issue is being discussed with interesting and valid points raised and you're just ignoring all of them and suggesting... what exactly? You haven't stated your opinion on free scrollers at all.

In my opinion the topic has been discussed a fair bit and it doesn't look like much more is coming out of the thread. The guys against it basically just say it's against the spirit of Speedrunning, but none of them can suggest any sensible way to cap free scrolling, or even bother addressing the other points at all. I'm obviously biased in my view (though I don't even use mousewheel in any of my runs), but it seems clear that free scrollers have to be accepted. If people disagree with this view point then please address the points raised.

Exo

2011-07-31 02:46:39 am

Sandbagging

Want to ban freescrolling ? Demand webcam footage of the run (aimed at the equipment). Groobo did it to proof his Portal run was single-segmented so there's no reason why other people can't do it to proof theyre bunny hopping without a freescroller. Tongue

ridd3r.

2011-07-31 03:15:08 am

we have lift off

Quote from Exo:

Want to ban freescrolling ? Demand webcam footage of the run (aimed at the equipment). Groobo did it to proof his Portal run was single-segmented so there's no reason why other people can't do it to proof theyre bunny hopping without a freescroller. Tongue

Nice argument as to why freescrolling should be banned... Also demanding webcam footage of all bunny hopping runs is a terrible idea. It's just another thing standing in the way of someone submitting a run, not to mention it would be a nightmare sorting out all the footage for segmented runs... SDA works on a trust system at the moment, if you're going to demand webcam footage because you're worried about free scrolling, why not address the much more serious issue that people may be editing a segmented run into a SS. That results in webcam proof for virtually ALL runs...

Exo

2011-07-31 03:18:22 am

Sandbagging

Seems like I should've made the sarcasm stick out a bit more in my last post.^^

ridd3r.

2011-07-31 03:23:36 am

we have lift off

What are you doing in this topic again? Apart from trolling that is.

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2011-07-31 03:35:04 am

2011-07-31 03:30:54 am

Sandbagging

Quote from ridd3r.:

What are you doing in this topic again? Apart from trolling that is.

Contributing to it unlike you. Tongue

On a more serious note :
People don't seem to get the issue here.
Freescrolling only has a few uses which seem to fall under the table for most of the discussion.
It makes bunny hopping alot easier, it allows you to spam a key and you can bind anything you want to it (turbofire for example) which OBVIOUSLY gives you quite an advantage over other players.
The problem is that there is no way to tell if somebody is using a freescrolling wheel for those things though because with months of practice the same thing can be accomplished with normal equipment.
Fun fact : this argument will go in circles until an admin just says yes or no to banning freescrollers. Since that's never going to happen (see last thread) this thread will just die again.

I love kryal

moooh

Edit history:

moooh: 2011-07-31 04:39:33 am

2011-07-31 04:37:43 am

why is this such a fucking issue. if we ban freescrolling mice can we ban the use of gba/ps2 controllers for running GB games because i have to buy something to let me use them thus giving me an unfair advantage over a gamecube controller user.

Exo

2011-07-31 04:39:42 am

Sandbagging

Quote from kryal sucks dick:

why is this such a fucking issue. if we ban freescrolling mice can we ban the use of gba/ps2 controllers for running GB games because i have to buy something to let me use them thus giving me an unfair advantage over a gamecube controller user.

That's not the issue. 1st party controllers don't have a turbofunction.

kryal loves someone too

2011-07-31 04:47:48 am

turbo function =/= advantage?

oh shit.

no seriously it isn't that much of an issue. we could argue over mice which are easier to press mouse1 faster than another mouse, it's really pointless.

Amoirealinge

Edit history:

Amoirealinge: 2011-07-31 05:07:45 am

2011-07-31 05:05:44 am

(new acc. drMalcom)

Quote from Exo:

It makes bunny hopping alot easier, it allows you to spam a key and you can bind anything you want to it (turbofire for example) which OBVIOUSLY gives you quite an advantage over other players.

Yes ! But if you are going to use the normal scroll to bhop you will have to buy a gaming mouse anyway, because there is so little friction on the wheel compared to non-gaming mice.

Quote from Exo:

The problem is that there is no way to tell if somebody is using a freescrolling wheel for those things though because with months of practice the same thing can be accomplished with normal equipment.

I don't think that the normal scroll can replace the freescroll even with pratice (see my "realistic" benchmark on the previous page).

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2011-07-31 05:09:31 am

2011-07-31 05:09:03 am

Sandbagging

I use a non-gaming mouse to bhop. It's all about getting the timing down.
Most game-inputs have a limit for inputs/second based on things like firing rate (example : rapidfire) or not every input is directly visible (example : bhop) which is why in a lot of cases you wouldn't be able to tell if a freescroller was used.

Emptyeye

2011-07-31 08:47:43 am

Talk to the Hand

Quote from Exo:

That's not the issue. 1st party controllers don't have a turbofunction.

Correction: MOST don't.

The TurboGrafx controller DOES, and my understanding is that, as it's the stock TG controller, TurboGrafx runs would be allowed to use it.

Not sure if that applies to this discussion, I mainly just wanted to show this knowledge off. Tongue

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2011-07-31 09:05:33 am

2011-07-31 09:05:25 am

Sandbagging

Quote from Emptyeye:

Quote from Exo:

That's not the issue. 1st party controllers don't have a turbofunction.

Correction: MOST don't.

The TurboGrafx controller DOES, and my understanding is that, as it's the stock TG controller, TurboGrafx runs would be allowed to use it.

Not sure if that applies to this discussion, I mainly just wanted to show this knowledge off. Tongue

It's mentioned in the faq/rules Tongue

Yes there are some exceptions but those have nothing to do with the issue ^^

ExtremeYoshiFan

2011-08-04 06:40:23 pm

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Default controls only, no rebinding! Wink

My opinion doesn't matter much since I don't run PC games. Here are some of my thoughts while reading the topic:

If someone were to run a TurboGrafx game without using turbo fire when it would be helpful (and they couldn't button mash faster than turbo fire), then the run would most likely be rejected.
Is Joy2Key and using a console controller allowed? What if that controller had a turbo button on it?
If a keyboard has auto-fire, should it not be used?

Apparently so. Here is my issue with rebinding, have you ever played any sort of fighter before, a lot of amazing players can't play well at all without their special button configuration. You would lose a massive section of PC runners if rebinding was banned. I see no reason to ban freescroll, it is totally legitimate to me. Anyone who has ever scrolled with a mouse normally(non=freescroll) will take their finger off of the mouse after the motion is complete to scroll the wheel. That would require runners with a freescroll mouse to either
A: Stop the wheel with a finger remaining on it and lose some time(portal needs both mice buttons constantly accessible, and those small fractions of a second you waste are essentially going to build and build) and the runner risks being rejected as a cheater if you forget to stop it once or twice
or
B. Adapt to a different mouse entirely. Now I don't speedrun PC games, but I can tell you that I do not play well at all without the mouse I use everyday, and it is a piece of crap.

Either one of these doesn't seem fair, how would half of you people feel if the rules were changed to ban your favorite controller because the buttons can be pressed faster or something stupid like that. Maybe you speedrun super meat boy on a fightpad because of the better D-Pad and the controller was banned because those that didn't have a fightpad didn't have a fair chance. It's like banning the old Xbox 360 models because they didn't have HDMI or something stupid like that. I see no reason with freescroll as in most instances it cannot be turned off like a turbo function.

[quote="ZenicReverie"]Default controls only, no rebinding! ;)

My opinion doesn't matter much since I don't run PC games. Here are some of my thoughts while reading the topic:

If someone were to run a TurboGrafx game without using turbo fire when it would be helpful (and they couldn't button mash faster than turbo fire), then the run would most likely be rejected.
Is Joy2Key and using a console controller allowed? What if that controller had a turbo button on it?
If a keyboard has auto-fire, should it not be used?[/quote]
Apparently so. Here is my issue with rebinding, have you ever played any sort of fighter before, a lot of amazing players can't play well at all without their special button configuration. You would lose a massive section of PC runners if rebinding was banned. I see no reason to ban freescroll, it is totally legitimate to me. Anyone who has ever scrolled with a mouse normally(non=freescroll) will take their finger off of the mouse after the motion is complete to scroll the wheel. That would require runners with a freescroll mouse to either 
A: Stop the wheel with a finger remaining on it and lose some time(portal needs both mice buttons constantly accessible, and those small fractions of a second you waste are essentially going to build and build) and the runner risks being rejected as a cheater if you forget to stop it once or twice
or
B. Adapt to a different mouse entirely. Now I don't speedrun PC games, but I can tell you that I do not play well at all without the mouse I use everyday, and it is a piece of crap.

Either one of these doesn't seem fair, how would half of you people feel if the rules were changed to ban your favorite controller because the buttons can be pressed faster or something stupid like that. Maybe you speedrun super meat boy on a fightpad because of the better D-Pad and the controller was banned because those that didn't have a fightpad didn't have a fair chance. It's like banning the old Xbox 360 models because they didn't have HDMI or something stupid like that. I see no reason with freescroll as in most instances it cannot be turned off like a turbo function.

DemonStrate

2011-08-04 08:26:46 pm

If we were you, we would quit now.

Hi all! I was looking for a resolution to this topic. I wanted to use my Logitech G500's feature to turn free-scroll on and off to do Portal 1 or 2 speedrunning.

My 2 cents: Hardware like this is advertised as "gaming" hardware. I don't fully agree with mouse-mods to use for speedruns (even though it is very easy to do and I have done it to my own mice in the past). If the hardware comes with it, and it is advertised to be used with games, it is probable that a casual/hardcore/speedrunner has one of these devices already. It would be similar to a hardcore Resident Evil 4 player having the custom chainsaw controller made for that game: http://www.engadget.com/2004/11/13/the-resident-evil-4-chainsaw-controller-for-gamecube/. A question is, would he be allowed to speedrun the game with this controller (disregarding if it game him an advantage or not)?? A better question is, would he be allowed to speedrun ANY gamecube game with this controller (even though it isn't advertised as such)?? I think those answers would clear up if PC gaming hardware (we are only speaking about mouse and keyboard in this regard, but specifically those devices that are marketed as "gaming" keyboards and mice) would be allowed to be used for speedrunning (meaning, the full hardware feature set (not the software side like macroing that can be done for those devices)). It is a racy topic.

Additionally, but related, for Portal 2, there is support for this Hydra controller: http://www.joystiq.com/2011/06/17/portal-2-sixense-dlc-and-actual-hydra-controllers-availabl/, and it is advertised being specifically for the game. Now, would you be allowed to speedrun using this device? Even making this more confusing, I have been made aware that if you simply install the DLC for the device for the game (without actually physically having the device), it allows for extra features that do, in fact, work with the regular mouse and keyboard. Would that be allowed for a Portal 2 speedrun? I've been informed there are some glitches that can be performed specifically if this DLC is installed.

So, as you notice, I have a few questions, not just free-scrolling mouse wheel related.

Hi all! I was looking for a resolution to this topic. I wanted to use my Logitech G500's feature to turn free-scroll on and off to do Portal 1 or 2 speedrunning.

My 2 cents: Hardware like this is advertised as "gaming" hardware. I don't fully agree with mouse-mods to use for speedruns (even though it is very easy to do and I have done it to my own mice in the past). If the hardware comes with it, and it is advertised to be used with games, it is probable that a casual/hardcore/speedrunner has one of these devices already. It would be similar to a hardcore Resident Evil 4 player having the custom chainsaw controller made for that game: http://www.engadget.com/2004/11/13/the-resident-evil-4-chainsaw-controller-for-gamecube/. A question is, would he be allowed to speedrun the game with this controller (disregarding if it game him an advantage or not)?? A better question is, would he be allowed to speedrun ANY gamecube game with this controller (even though it isn't advertised as such)?? I think those answers would clear up if PC gaming hardware (we are only speaking about mouse and keyboard in this regard, but specifically those devices that are marketed as "gaming" keyboards and mice) would be allowed to be used for speedrunning (meaning, the full hardware feature set (not the software side like macroing that can be done for those devices)). It is a racy topic.

Additionally, but related, for Portal 2, there is support for this Hydra controller: http://www.joystiq.com/2011/06/17/portal-2-sixense-dlc-and-actual-hydra-controllers-availabl/, and it is advertised being specifically for the game. Now, would you be allowed to speedrun using this device? Even making this more confusing, I have been made aware that if you simply install the DLC for the device for the game (without actually physically having the device), it allows for extra features that do, in fact, work with the regular mouse and keyboard. Would that be allowed for a Portal 2 speedrun? I've been informed there are some glitches that can be performed specifically if this DLC is installed.

So, as you notice, I have a few questions, not just free-scrolling mouse wheel related.

Chiptune

Edit history:

Chiptune: 2011-08-05 12:06:04 am

Chiptune: 2011-08-05 12:05:29 am

2011-08-04 11:54:05 pm

Let's not try to regulate the PC gaming community with a rule we can't demonstrate is fair to ourselves let alone to them. The PC gamers seem to see no problems with this, so unless a consensus of us here disagree then I don't think there would be any way to tell people they can't use a free scroll mouse without sounding arbitrary ourselves.

Also, what about track pads? Is there no way to make one spam a lot of commands?

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2011-08-05 02:08:13 am

2011-08-05 02:06:56 am

Sandbagging

Quote from ExtremeYoshiFan:

I see no reason with freescroll as in most instances it cannot be turned off like a turbo function.

It's not about WHEN you turn off the function (which in fact is nearly instantly with a freescroller) but the fact that you can spam a command up to 10 (?) times faster than with a normal wheel which makes frame-precise stuff alot easier to execute perfectly.

Quote from ExtremeYoshiFan:

A: Stop the wheel with a finger remaining on it and lose some time(portal needs both mice buttons constantly accessible, and those small fractions of a second you waste are essentially going to build and build) and the runner risks being rejected as a cheater if you forget to stop it once or twice

You can keep your finger on the right-mouse button and still stop the mousewheel without a problem.

Bringing up different controllers for this argument is another dead end.
All the examples that were brought up don't mention a turbo-function on the controller so theyre useless for argumenting since it would be allowed by sda rules.

The controller DemonStrate mentioned is a special case.
The DLC changes the games code, allowing you to de-form objects to solve puzzles which heavily alters the way the game can be exploited wich ergo validates a new category.

The bottom line of this is that free-scrollers will (sooner or later) become standardized pc-hardware so there's no point in banning them.
It still gives players a heavy advantage over other people using a normal mousewheel.
Not sure if that should be mentioned in the run.

[quote="ExtremeYoshiFan"]I see no reason with freescroll as in most instances it cannot be turned off like a turbo function. [/quote]

It's not about WHEN you turn off the function (which in fact is nearly instantly with a freescroller) but the fact that you can spam a command up to 10 (?) times faster than with a normal wheel which makes frame-precise stuff alot easier to execute perfectly.

[quote="ExtremeYoshiFan"]
A: Stop the wheel with a finger remaining on it and lose some time(portal needs both mice buttons constantly accessible, and those small fractions of a second you waste are essentially going to build and build) and the runner risks being rejected as a cheater if you forget to stop it once or twice [/quote]

You can keep your finger on the right-mouse button and still stop the mousewheel without a problem.

Bringing up different controllers for this argument is another dead end.
All the examples that were brought up don't mention a turbo-function on the controller so theyre useless for argumenting since it would be allowed by sda rules.

The controller DemonStrate mentioned is a special case.
The DLC changes the games code, allowing you to de-form objects to solve puzzles which heavily alters the way the game can be exploited wich ergo validates a new category.

The bottom line of this is that free-scrollers will (sooner or later) become standardized pc-hardware so there's no point in banning them.
It still gives players a heavy advantage over other people using a normal mousewheel.
Not sure if that should be mentioned in the run.

DemonStrate

Edit history:

DemonStrate: 2011-08-05 05:56:05 am

DemonStrate: 2011-08-05 05:36:10 am

DemonStrate: 2011-08-05 05:33:47 am

2011-08-05 05:28:46 am

If we were you, we would quit now.

Just to give some visibility into what we are talking about.

Here is a video of the type of free-scrolling that my mouse (the G500) offers (even though this video is NOT of the G500):

This mouse requires you to push a physical button on the mouse to enable/disable the free scrolling ability.

It seems that these features are mainly a Logitech only feature. But, I would suspect that Logitech holds the lead as the main competitor on PC mice (someone could find the statistics somewhere).

But! It seems that a newer implementation is present in the MX Revolution series mice:

As you can see, this type allows it to be customized when you want the free scroll to be enabled or disabled. It seems the default it to enable itself automatically after scrolling at a certain speed, which I find to be extremely interesting...

I may try one of these newer mice, because the G500 way of hitting a button to turn it on and off is actually really annoying, and I'd rather have it auto free scroll when I physically try to spin it too much. The technology on mice has come along way. Can anyone find if this type of free scrolling is available on non-Logitech mice?

Edit: Ah ha! I found what the latter type of scrolling is called. It is called SmartShift. Here is the paper on the technology:
http://static.compusa.com/pdf/ib-microgear_and_smartshift_EN.pdf

Edit2: To properly categorize these types of mouse wheels, they are called MicroGear scroll wheels. That is described in the paper above, or for a short description, in this link below:
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/M/MicroGear_Scroll_Wheel.html

Edit3: Damn! It seems they have removed SmartShift from their newer mice! People on the internet are complaining about it. I'm stupidly obsessed with mice. I almost never buy a cordless mouse, but I think I'll have to search for the MX Revolution and buy it. That damn SmartShift sounds too good to pass up. I wish they would bring it back.

Just to give some visibility into what we are talking about.

Here is a video of the type of free-scrolling that my mouse (the G500) offers (even though this video is NOT of the G500):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBW2LlciCng&list=FLxYkU-7mu7V
This mouse requires you to push a physical button on the mouse to enable/disable the free scrolling ability.

It seems that these features are mainly a Logitech only feature. But, I would suspect that Logitech holds the lead as the main competitor on PC mice (someone could find the statistics somewhere).

But! It seems that a newer implementation is present in the MX Revolution series mice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2G0qxyY5Zo
As you can see, this type allows it to be customized when you want the free scroll to be enabled or disabled. It seems the default it to enable itself automatically after scrolling at a certain speed, which I find to be extremely interesting...

I may try one of these newer mice, because the G500 way of hitting a button to turn it on and off is actually really annoying, and I'd rather have it auto free scroll when I physically try to spin it too much. The technology on mice has come along way. Can anyone find if this type of free scrolling is available on non-Logitech mice?

Edit: Ah ha! I found what the latter type of scrolling is called. It is called SmartShift. Here is the paper on the technology:
http://static.compusa.com/pdf/ib-microgear_and_smartshift_EN.pdf

Edit2: To properly categorize these types of mouse wheels, they are called MicroGear scroll wheels. That is described in the paper above, or for a short description, in this link below:
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/M/MicroGear_Scroll_Wheel.html

Edit3: Damn! It seems they have removed SmartShift from their newer mice! People on the internet are complaining about it. I'm stupidly obsessed with mice. I almost never buy a cordless mouse, but I think I'll have to search for the MX Revolution and buy it. That damn SmartShift sounds too good to pass up. I wish they would bring it back.

ShadowWraith

2011-08-07 01:24:07 am

.

Quote from DemonStrate:

Hi all! I was looking for a resolution to this topic. I wanted to use my Logitech G500's feature to turn free-scroll on and off to do Portal 1 or 2 speedrunning.

My 2 cents: Hardware like this is advertised as "gaming" hardware. I don't fully agree with mouse-mods to use for speedruns (even though it is very easy to do and I have done it to my own mice in the past). If the hardware comes with it, and it is advertised to be used with games, it is probable that a casual/hardcore/speedrunner has one of these devices already. It would be similar to a hardcore Resident Evil 4 player having the custom chainsaw controller made for that game: http://www.engadget.com/2004/11/13/the-resident-evil-4-chainsaw-controller-for-gamecube/. A question is, would he be allowed to speedrun the game with this controller (disregarding if it game him an advantage or not)?? A better question is, would he be allowed to speedrun ANY gamecube game with this controller (even though it isn't advertised as such)?? I think those answers would clear up if PC gaming hardware (we are only speaking about mouse and keyboard in this regard, but specifically those devices that are marketed as "gaming" keyboards and mice) would be allowed to be used for speedrunning (meaning, the full hardware feature set (not the software side like macroing that can be done for those devices)). It is a racy topic.

I doubt this GC controller would be allowed as the Gamecube has standardised controllers and SDA mandates the use of them by the rules. This rule isn't present for PC running for obvious reasons.
The subject of free scrolling mouse wheels is still under discussion and there has been no ruling on it yet, however.

Quote:

Additionally, but related, for Portal 2, there is support for this Hydra controller: http://www.joystiq.com/2011/06/17/portal-2-sixense-dlc-and-actual-hydra-controllers-availabl/, and it is advertised being specifically for the game. Now, would you be allowed to speedrun using this device? Even making this more confusing, I have been made aware that if you simply install the DLC for the device for the game (without actually physically having the device), it allows for extra features that do, in fact, work with the regular mouse and keyboard. Would that be allowed for a Portal 2 speedrun? I've been informed there are some glitches that can be performed specifically if this DLC is installed.

So, as you notice, I have a few questions, not just free-scrolling mouse wheel related.

Since this controller is for the PC, it would most likely be legal to use unless it confers significant advantages over other controllers, like.. macros, or hardware scripting, or something.

[quote="DemonStrate"]Hi all! I was looking for a resolution to this topic. I wanted to use my Logitech G500's feature to turn free-scroll on and off to do Portal 1 or 2 speedrunning.

My 2 cents: Hardware like this is advertised as "gaming" hardware. I don't fully agree with mouse-mods to use for speedruns (even though it is very easy to do and I have done it to my own mice in the past). If the hardware comes with it, and it is advertised to be used with games, it is probable that a casual/hardcore/speedrunner has one of these devices already. It would be similar to a hardcore Resident Evil 4 player having the custom chainsaw controller made for that game: http://www.engadget.com/2004/11/13/the-resident-evil-4-chainsaw-controller-for-gamecube/. A question is, would he be allowed to speedrun the game with this controller (disregarding if it game him an advantage or not)?? A better question is, would he be allowed to speedrun ANY gamecube game with this controller (even though it isn't advertised as such)?? I think those answers would clear up if PC gaming hardware (we are only speaking about mouse and keyboard in this regard, but specifically those devices that are marketed as "gaming" keyboards and mice) would be allowed to be used for speedrunning (meaning, the full hardware feature set (not the software side like macroing that can be done for those devices)). It is a racy topic.[/quote]

I doubt this GC controller would be allowed as the Gamecube has standardised controllers and SDA mandates the use of them by the rules. This rule isn't present for PC running for obvious reasons.
The subject of free scrolling mouse wheels is still under discussion and there has been no ruling on it yet, however.

[quote]Additionally, but related, for Portal 2, there is support for this Hydra controller: http://www.joystiq.com/2011/06/17/portal-2-sixense-dlc-and-actual-hydra-controllers-availabl/, and it is advertised being specifically for the game. Now, would you be allowed to speedrun using this device? Even making this more confusing, I have been made aware that if you simply install the DLC for the device for the game (without actually physically having the device), it allows for extra features that do, in fact, work with the regular mouse and keyboard. Would that be allowed for a Portal 2 speedrun? I've been informed there are some glitches that can be performed specifically if this DLC is installed.

So, as you notice, I have a few questions, not just free-scrolling mouse wheel related.[/quote]

Since this controller is for the PC, it would most likely be legal to use unless it confers significant advantages over other controllers, like.. macros, or hardware scripting, or something.

DemonStrate

2011-08-07 10:15:03 am

If we were you, we would quit now.

Quote from ShadowWraith:

I doubt this GC controller would be allowed as the Gamecube has standardised controllers and SDA mandates the use of them by the rules. This rule isn't present for PC running for obvious reasons.
The subject of free scrolling mouse wheels is still under discussion and there has been no ruling on it yet, however.

Well, for now, I'm going to be purchasing the Logitech MX Revolution described above as part of a keyboard and mouse combo here: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823126038
I am wayyyyy too obsessed with mice to not try the SmartShift. I have about 6-7 different mice in a box in my mom's attic (most of them are broken from overuse) and I have about 3-4 here at my current residence.

Quote from ShadowWraith:

Since this controller is for the PC, it would most likely be legal to use unless it confers significant advantages over other controllers, like.. macros, or hardware scripting, or something.

This would have to be a different category of speedrun if it was used for Portal 2. The changes made for this controller allow you to manipulate object which is not a regular feature of the game. Also, if the DLC was used, even without the controller, it would need to be a separate category too since it allows you to throw objects nearly half way across the room. The normal game, you can't even throw them; only like a lazy toss is possible.

[quote="ShadowWraith"]
I doubt this GC controller would be allowed as the Gamecube has standardised controllers and SDA mandates the use of them by the rules. This rule isn't present for PC running for obvious reasons.
The subject of free scrolling mouse wheels is still under discussion and there has been no ruling on it yet, however.
[/quote]

Well, for now, I'm going to be purchasing the Logitech MX Revolution described above as part of a keyboard and mouse combo here: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823126038
I am wayyyyy too obsessed with mice to not try the SmartShift. I have about 6-7 different mice in a box in my mom's attic (most of them are broken from overuse) and I have about 3-4 here at my current residence.

[quote="ShadowWraith"]
Since this controller is for the PC, it would most likely be legal to use unless it confers significant advantages over other controllers, like.. macros, or hardware scripting, or something.
[/quote]

This would have to be a different category of speedrun if it was used for Portal 2. The changes made for this controller allow you to manipulate object which is not a regular feature of the game. Also, if the DLC was used, even without the controller, it would need to be a separate category too since it allows you to throw objects nearly half way across the room. The normal game, you can't even throw them; only like a lazy toss is possible.

ShadowWraith

2011-08-07 01:21:44 pm

.

Ah, right. Yes that would definitely be in its own category.

Axel Ryman

2011-08-07 01:44:12 pm

We all scream for Eyes Cream

That GC Controller has no actual advantages over a normal one, unless playing a rusty chainsaw sound is somehow an advantage. Remember, 3rd party controllers are allowed but they must use the same features as the normal controller. If that chainsaw sound is done ingame, then it should be shut off for that reason, and to not annoy everyone. If it can't be shut off, then I'm sure it won't be accepted for that, unless it's in real life, making only the runner suffer. Wink

For the issue with mouse scrolling and such, my opinion is to just ban the use of the mouse wheel for all but it's default use, but that's just me.

DemonStrate

2011-08-08 03:52:17 am

If we were you, we would quit now.

Quote from Axel Ryman:

it's default use

Define that. Every PC game has default key binding, but nearly every PC game allows you to rebind keys. Are you saying that you should not be allowed to rebind the default actions of the mouse wheel?

Axel Ryman

2011-08-08 04:31:17 am

We all scream for Eyes Cream

Quote from DemonStrate:

Quote from Axel Ryman:

it's default use

Define that. Every PC game has default key binding, but nearly every PC game allows you to rebind keys. Are you saying that you should not be allowed to rebind the default actions of the mouse wheel?

Basically. Like I said, it's just my opinion on it.