Free scroll.. legit or not ?

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-07-17 05:02:35 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-07-17 04:58:54 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-07-17 04:57:17 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-07-17 04:56:43 am

2011-07-17 04:56:35 am

It's an annoying grey area that there hasn't yet been a ruling on and on which a ruling will be necessary in the not-too-distant future, for Demonstrate's Portal 2 run among other things. (It sounds like you're planning on using one for a Deus Ex run of some kind?)

I suspect these will be allowed, because otherwise people will just keep on looking for hardware alternatives to turbo scripts. I recall reading that AHK turbo scripts were originally allowed by Radix because he judged that the lengths the HL2DQ runners were having to go to to spam input (like plugging in multiple joysticks, putting them on the floor and wiggling them back and forth with their feet, or something like that) were retarded and turbo scripts just got around the whole issue.

Now that turbo for PC has been banned along with all other forms of scripting, anyone who plays a game that seriously requires constant spamming of a command, such that they simply can't make the run relying just on a normal mousewheel, faces the choice of either making a run that is substantially and visibly worse than it could be due to them not having a good enough mousewheel, using a turbo script and not submitting to SDA at all, using a turbo script and lying to us about it, or finding and paying for a retarded hardware workaround like a freescroll wheel which in all but the most exceptional special cases will be functionally identical to a turbo script. It's really not an ideal situation for anybody.

It's an annoying grey area that there hasn't yet been a ruling on and on which a ruling will be necessary in the not-too-distant future, for Demonstrate's Portal 2 run among other things. (It sounds like you're planning on using one for a Deus Ex run of some kind?)

I suspect these will be allowed, because otherwise people will just keep on looking for hardware alternatives to turbo scripts. I recall reading that AHK turbo scripts were originally allowed by Radix because he judged that the lengths the HL2DQ runners were having to go to to spam input (like plugging in multiple joysticks, putting them on the floor and wiggling them back and forth with their feet, or something like that) were retarded and turbo scripts just got around the whole issue.

Now that turbo for PC has been banned along with all other forms of scripting, anyone who plays a game that [i]seriously[/i] requires constant spamming of a command, such that they simply can't make the run relying just on a normal mousewheel, faces the choice of either making a run that is substantially and visibly worse than it could be due to them not having a good enough mousewheel, using a turbo script and not submitting to SDA at all, using a turbo script and lying to us about it, or finding and paying for a retarded hardware workaround like a freescroll wheel which in all but the most exceptional special cases will be functionally identical to a turbo script. It's really not an ideal situation for anybody.

2011-07-17 05:25:57 am

(new acc. drMalcom)

My opinion is that the free scroll is not like scripting. Software or hardware (like with the G500) scripts can be used to automate a whole sequence of the run. There is no chance this can happen with a free scroll. If free scrolling is banned, then I could just buy a mouse with very little friction on the wheel. Of course this is only my humble opinion.

PS: for DeusEx, the free scroll is really not necessary. It just an idea I had in mind.

CMiller

2011-07-17 02:51:20 pm

I personally think that every instance of input should be initiated by the runner. Scrolling the mouse wheel is okay since the runner's action is initiating each input individually, but not with free scroll. I think free scroll is equivalent to macro controllers.

2011-07-19 11:01:48 am

(new acc. drMalcom)

But one scroll is actually many scrolls before the wheel stops (with the G500, that's a lot).

2011-07-20 02:56:21 pm

to me it's not artificial at all. it's as artificial as a ball (not laser) mouse being shuffleboarded across your mouse pad and stopping at some point, and the whole event is determined by the player's first action. now if the mouse moving across a surface was somehow bound to jump then people wouldn't have a problem with it. you could in fact argue that the regular mice, which stop the wheel at precise points, are a more artificial wheel than one which rotates freely.

also the fact that you're not spending any conspicuous time in the console preparing conditionals, leaving the game or messing with the program files makes it very agreeable.

CrypticJacknife

2011-07-20 10:21:41 pm

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

Not legit. 1 input = More than 1 activated input. I don't know why you think it could be anything else.

2011-07-20 10:57:32 pm

cryptic, when you move your mouse, it's hundreds of instructions simplified for you, but you've only made one decision. this is on the same side as this scroll wheel feature. really, it's occurred me before outside of games: why freewheeling isn't a standard thing - it must be expensive or something.

Flip

2011-07-21 09:38:41 pm

1-Up!

PC rules are difficult for us to nail down because there isn't a "standard" set of equipment like you have with a console. With consoles, it's easy to say "if the console controller doesn't support turbo, then turbo isn't allowed."

Before I go any further, don't construe this as a ruling, this is more me thinking out loud. I think that it would be in our best interest to not have a policy that creates a hardware competition. I wouldn't want the only factor separating two runs to be that the faster run used a free scroll wheel with more inputs per second. However, for a long time now the mouse wheel has become standard with nearly all computers. Unfortunately, we can't assume any two mouse wheels are alike in the same way we can reasonably assume any two keyboards are alike.

Right now it looks like if we ban the use of free-scroll wheels, we create a problem of not being able to police our policy. However, if we allow them, then we enter into this technology race like I mentioned. Easiest solution would be to stop hosting pc runs all together trollolol Wink

PC rules are difficult for us to nail down because there isn't a "standard" set of equipment like you have with a console.  With consoles, it's easy to say "if the console controller doesn't support turbo, then turbo isn't allowed."

Before I go any further, don't construe this as a ruling, this is more me thinking out loud. I think that it would be in our best interest to [i]not[/i] have a policy that creates a hardware competition. I wouldn't want the only factor separating two runs to be that the faster run used a free scroll wheel with more inputs per second. However, for a long time now the mouse wheel has become standard with nearly all computers. Unfortunately, we can't assume any two mouse wheels are alike in the same way we can reasonably assume any two keyboards are alike.

Right now it looks like if we ban the use of free-scroll wheels, we create a problem of not being able to police our policy. However, if we allow them, then we enter into this technology race like I mentioned. Easiest solution would be to stop hosting pc runs all together trollolol ;)

Caracarn

2011-07-21 09:55:43 pm

I don't really have a problem with free-scroll, as it's usefulness is limited. The problem with scripts is that you can execute complex tricks automatically by pressing one key. (I will refrain from giving examples to avoid flame war).

I agree that PC game rules are difficult to enforce, since everyone has different hardware, and hardware is continually upgraded over the years. Remember when mice didn't even have scroll wheels? (although that was before SDA's time :p). Free scroll is just another evolution of PC hardware imo.

2011-07-21 11:37:06 pm

>I think that it would be in our best interest to not have a policy that creates a hardware competition.

Well isn't there already? - I mean, if you want to run a game newer than four years old, and it doesn't happen to have demo recording... that needs a nice machine.

moooh

Edit history:

moooh: 2011-07-22 02:58:08 am

2011-07-22 02:57:03 am

Exoray

Quote from grndino:

Well isn't there already? - I mean, if you want to run a game newer than four years old, and it doesn't happen to have demo recording... that needs a nice machine.

No, better hardware doesn't make a better run in that case. It only allows you to make the run in the first place. The same could be said for say an Xbox 360 run. If you want to try and beat it, you need a Xbox 360 since a Wii wouldn't work too well.
Having the right equipment to be able to make the run at all is certainly not the same as having special equipment that makes a run be faster than others without that special equipment.

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-07-22 03:05:03 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-07-22 03:04:29 am

2011-07-22 03:04:12 am

Random points not heading in any particular direction follow.

Quote from CrypticJacknife:

Not legit. 1 input = More than 1 activated input. I don't know why you think it could be anything else.

Feels a bit arbitrary and grey to me. Firstly, define 'input'. It sounds right now like spinning an ordinary mousewheel fast, pressing two keys with one finger or running a finger quickly over a row of keys could be equally non-legit by that definition, though it depends on what counts as '1 input'.

Quote from Flip:

PC rules are difficult for us to nail down because there isn't a "standard" set of equipment like you have with a console. With consoles, it's easy to say "if the console controller doesn't support turbo, then turbo isn't allowed."

Before I go any further, don't construe this as a ruling, this is more me thinking out loud. I think that it would be in our best interest to not have a policy that creates a hardware competition. I wouldn't want the only factor separating two runs to be that the faster run used a free scroll wheel with more inputs per second. However, for a long time now the mouse wheel has become standard with nearly all computers. Unfortunately, we can't assume any two mouse wheels are alike in the same way we can reasonably assume any two keyboards are alike.

I agree so far.

Quote:

Right now it looks like if we ban the use of free-scroll wheels, we create a problem of not being able to police our policy.

I'm not sure this has ever been something we've cared about, though? This gets said a lot at SDA, but we rely on trust a lot already. E.g. it would be very easy to pass off a segmented run as SS. I think the bigger problem with banning free-scroll wheels is that it just means people will need to find other hardware alternatives to button-spam for them, some of which may be so similar (e.g. a freescroll wheel on a joystick or something else that technically hasn't been considered yet) that they make the rule look stupid. Since PC runs have been using either the mousewheel or scripts to button-spam since the dawn of time, and button-spamming is seriously vital to running quite a few games, it's pretty much inevitable that serious runners of those games will look for the best button-spamming method allowable under SDA rules; nobody wants to fail a segment two or three times as many times as they otherwise would, or end up with a segment a couple of seconds slower, because the method they were using to button-spam for them was suboptimal.

Quote from Caracarn:

The problem with scripts is that you can execute complex tricks automatically by pressing one key.

Just for the record, only Half Life 1 and its expansions (Half Life: Opposing Force and Half Life: Blue Shift) have ever had runs with such scripts. The Source engine runs only used turbo scripts and so could in principle have been executed with a freescroll mousewheel with barely any extra difficulty.

(I'm not sure whether or how this contributes to the debate over what should be allowed but it seemed relevant.)

Random points not heading in any particular direction follow.

[quote="CrypticJacknife"]Not legit. 1 input = More than 1 activated input. I don't know why you think it could be anything else.[/quote]

Feels a bit arbitrary and grey to me. Firstly, define 'input'. It sounds right now like spinning an ordinary mousewheel fast, pressing two keys with one finger or running a finger quickly over a row of keys could be equally non-legit by that definition, though it depends on what counts as '1 input'.

[quote="Flip"]PC rules are difficult for us to nail down because there isn't a "standard" set of equipment like you have with a console.  With consoles, it's easy to say "if the console controller doesn't support turbo, then turbo isn't allowed."

Before I go any further, don't construe this as a ruling, this is more me thinking out loud. I think that it would be in our best interest to [i]not[/i] have a policy that creates a hardware competition. I wouldn't want the only factor separating two runs to be that the faster run used a free scroll wheel with more inputs per second. However, for a long time now the mouse wheel has become standard with nearly all computers. Unfortunately, we can't assume any two mouse wheels are alike in the same way we can reasonably assume any two keyboards are alike.[/quote]

I agree so far.

[quote]Right now it looks like if we ban the use of free-scroll wheels, we create a problem of not being able to police our policy.[/quote]

I'm not sure this has ever been something we've cared about, though? This gets said a lot at SDA, but we rely on trust a lot already. E.g. it would be very easy to pass off a segmented run as SS. I think the bigger problem with banning free-scroll wheels is that it just means people will need to find other hardware alternatives to button-spam for them, some of which may be so similar (e.g. a freescroll wheel on a joystick or something else that technically hasn't been considered yet) that they make the rule look stupid. Since PC runs have been using either the mousewheel or scripts to button-spam since the dawn of time, and button-spamming is seriously vital to running quite a few games, it's pretty much inevitable that serious runners of those games will look for the best button-spamming method allowable under SDA rules; nobody wants to fail a segment two or three times as many times as they otherwise would, or end up with a segment a couple of seconds slower, because the method they were using to button-spam for them was suboptimal.

[quote="Caracarn"]The problem with scripts is that you can execute complex tricks automatically by pressing one key.[/quote]

Just for the record, only Half Life 1 and its expansions (Half Life: Opposing Force and Half Life: Blue Shift) have ever had runs with such scripts. The Source engine runs only used turbo scripts and so could in principle have been executed with a freescroll mousewheel with barely any extra difficulty.

(I'm not sure whether or how this contributes to the debate over what should be allowed but it seemed relevant.)

CrypticJacknife

2011-07-22 04:57:10 am

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

Quote:

Feels a bit arbitrary and grey to me. Firstly, define 'input'. It sounds right now like spinning an ordinary mousewheel fast, pressing two keys with one finger or running a finger quickly over a row of keys could be equally non-legit by that definition, though it depends on what counts as '1 input'.

1 input is definied as 1 keystroke, 1 command. I don't know how you could think spinning an ordinary mousewheel fast or pressing two keys with one finger is one input, as they are clearly more than one input, because it is sending more than 1 command to the game engine. 1 input within a game is 1 action, activated by that corresponding button press. Sure, if there are game's that allow you to hold one button to jump constantly, that is perfectly fine as one input (except in the case obviously of scripts). However, if you are sending more than one command into the system with something like a freescroll mouse, that's not only sending multiple commands to the game without extra effort, it's just flat out half-assing running the game in the first place (or as you guys say, finding the best button-spam technique). Are you guys asking whether SDA would consider them legit within their rules? Or whether the SDA community considers them legit? Because "it's pretty much inevitable that serious runners of those games will look for the best button-spamming method allowable under SDA rules" seems to be another way of saying "those looking for the best times will look for loopholes", considering the free-wheel mouse thought wasn't even considered as half-legit until someone brought it up almost immediately after scripts were banned.

Whether it gets flagged as legit or not doesn't bother me honestly. But know that I (along with inevitably many other players) will still see it as not as good as a run without it (as it would require more skill to do a good run that way). But from the look of it, the runners seem to only care whether it gets onto SDA, not whether SDA as a community actually think the run shows skill, otherwise you'd be conversing the community opinion, not it's legality under the current ruleset.

Right, that's my full say. If anything is grey or arbitrary in there, you are clearly forcing an opinion upon yourself and not looking at it from both sides. If you don't agree with what I've said and think it's all garbage, well why the hell did you ask for opinions in the first place? Have fun keeping these guys in tow Mods and Co. ^__^ I'm gonna go back to playing consoles, where people all play the same way.

[quote]Feels a bit arbitrary and grey to me. Firstly, define 'input'. It sounds right now like spinning an ordinary mousewheel fast, pressing two keys with one finger or running a finger quickly over a row of keys could be equally non-legit by that definition, though it depends on what counts as '1 input'.[/quote]

1 input is definied as 1 keystroke, 1 command. I don't know how you could think spinning an ordinary mousewheel fast or pressing two keys with one finger is one input, as they are clearly more than one input, because it is sending more than 1 command to the game engine. 1 input within a game is 1 action, activated by that corresponding button press. Sure, if there are game's that allow you to hold one button to jump constantly, that is perfectly fine as one input (except in the case obviously of scripts). However, if you are sending more than one command into the system with something like a freescroll mouse, that's not only sending multiple commands to the game without extra effort, it's just flat out half-assing running the game in the first place (or as you guys say, finding the best button-spam technique). Are you guys asking whether SDA would consider them legit within their rules? Or whether the SDA community considers them legit? Because "it's pretty much inevitable that serious runners of those games will look for the best button-spamming method allowable under SDA rules" seems to be another way of saying "those looking for the best times will look for loopholes", considering the free-wheel mouse thought wasn't even considered as half-legit until someone brought it up almost immediately after scripts were banned.

Whether it gets flagged as legit or not doesn't bother me honestly. But know that I (along with inevitably many other players) will still see it as not as good as a run without it (as it would require more skill to do a good run that way). But from the look of it, the runners seem to only care whether it gets onto SDA, not whether SDA as a community actually think the run shows skill, otherwise you'd be conversing the community opinion, not it's legality under the current ruleset.

Right, that's my full say. If anything is grey or arbitrary in there, you are clearly forcing an opinion upon yourself and not looking at it from both sides. If you don't agree with what I've said and think it's all garbage, well why the hell did you ask for opinions in the first place? Have fun keeping these guys in tow Mods and Co. ^__^ I'm gonna go back to playing consoles, where people all play the same way.

2011-07-22 06:35:32 am

(new acc. drMalcom)

ok, but make sure not to press two buttons with one finger ^^

Exo

2011-07-22 08:04:25 am

Sandbagging

Quote from Amoirealinge:

ok, but make sure not to press two buttons with one finger ^^

Good job not getting the issue at all.

CrypticJacknife pretty much nailed it.
A freescrollwheel is pretty much equal to holding the spacebar to bunnyhop.

2011-07-22 09:09:13 am

or, moving the mouse for several thousand distinct moments with one wrist twitch in order to determine the direction of the pointer

2011-07-23 01:56:24 am

(new acc. drMalcom)

Quote from Exo:

Quote from Amoirealinge:

ok, but make sure not to press two buttons with one finger ^^

Good job not getting the issue at all.

CrypticJacknife pretty much nailed it.
A freescrollwheel is pretty much equal to holding the spacebar to bunnyhop.

Well yes, I'm really sorry but I don't really get his point. I sincerely apologize, my english isn't so good so maybe that's why. As I understand it, he first says that more than one input with one command is not legit (which bans the regular scroll as well as the two buttons-one finger thing). Then he says that it's ok if it's legit and then he says the console are the best ever.
So again sorry, from now on I will probably just silently watch this thread Smiley

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-07-23 05:12:12 am

2011-07-23 05:10:34 am

Quote from CrypticJacknife:

1 input is definied as 1 keystroke, 1 command. I don't know how you could think spinning an ordinary mousewheel fast or pressing two keys with one finger is one input, as they are clearly more than one input, because it is sending more than 1 command to the game engine.

Yeah, you've just demonstrated precisely why I said that at first glance your distinction seems arbitrary and badly defined, because it would be equally true for me to say:

"1 input is definied as 1 keystroke, 1 command. I don't know how you could think spinning a freescroll mousewheel is one input, as that is clearly more than one input, because it is sending more than 1 command to the game engine."

For that matter, I could even say

"I don't know how you could think using a single script that runs the entire game for you is one input, as that is clearly more than one input, because it is sending more than 1 command to the game engine."

So yeah basically I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Quote from Amoirealinge:

Well yes, I'm really sorry but I don't really get his point. I sincerely apologize, my english isn't so good so maybe that's why.

Don't worry, I'm a native English speaker and I have no idea what his point is either.

Quote from Exo:

CrypticJacknife pretty much nailed it.
A freescrollwheel is pretty much equal to holding the spacebar to bunnyhop.

I honestly don't know whether this is sarcasm or not.

[quote="CrypticJacknife"]1 input is definied as 1 keystroke, 1 command. I don't know how you could think spinning an ordinary mousewheel fast or pressing two keys with one finger is one input, as they are clearly more than one input, because it is sending more than 1 command to the game engine.[/quote]

Yeah, you've just demonstrated precisely why I said that at first glance your distinction seems arbitrary and badly defined, because it would be equally true for me to say:

"1 input is definied as 1 keystroke, 1 command. I don't know how you could think spinning a freescroll mousewheel is one input, as that is clearly more than one input, because it is sending more than 1 command to the game engine."

For that matter, I could even say

"I don't know how you could think using a single script that runs the entire game for you is one input, as that is clearly more than one input, because it is sending more than 1 command to the game engine."

So yeah basically I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

[quote="Amoirealinge"]Well yes, I'm really sorry but I don't really get his point. I sincerely apologize, my english isn't so good so maybe that's why.[/quote]

Don't worry, I'm a native English speaker and I have no idea what his point is either.

[quote="Exo"]CrypticJacknife pretty much nailed it.
A freescrollwheel is pretty much equal to holding the spacebar to bunnyhop.[/quote]

I honestly don't know whether this is sarcasm or not.

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2011-07-23 05:34:20 am

Exo: 2011-07-23 05:34:19 am

Exo: 2011-07-23 05:33:58 am

Exo: 2011-07-23 05:32:58 am

Exo: 2011-07-23 05:30:11 am

2011-07-23 05:27:49 am

Sandbagging

Here is the issue boiled down to a single equation :
Freescroll-wheel = bhop-script

Some might argue that a normal mousewheel does the same thing but that really only shows that they never tried to bhop in a source game. Retaining full speed while bhopping is an exact science with a mousewheel whereas it becomes selfworking with a freescroll wheel.
In the end SDA has no way of banning hardware or to check if any kind of script was used in the first place so this discussion is pretty much an infinite loop.

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-07-23 05:52:21 am

2011-07-23 05:50:31 am

Quote from Exo:

Here is the issue boiled down to a single equation :
Freescroll-wheel = bhop-script

A freescroll wheel is pretty much functionally equivalent to a turbo script, yes. I think that's something we can all agree on.

Quote:

In the end SDA has no way of banning hardware

Here's a way of banning hardware: an admin says 'This is now banned,' they add a sentence saying so to the rules, and all is done.

Yes, as Flip has already pointed out, we can't actually enforce it and anyone who wants to cheat will probably be able to get away with in a segmented run, which I think is your point. My take on this: who cares? Cheating is easy here already. (I'm in favour of allowing this stuff by the way, I just don't think the difficulty of 'enforcing' a ban is a significant factor.)

ridd3r.

2011-07-23 06:53:56 am

we have lift off

It's about time a ruling was done on this to be honest, with new games like portal 2 being run, it's a current issue. My view is since mice with scroll wheels are already accepted and there is variance between scrollability, unless you say all PC runners have to use a set mouse (which is ridiculous and you'd lose 95% of PC runners) then it's already unfair. Banning free scrollers doesn't make it fairer (since currently anyone can buy one), it just means everyone would have to get the next best alternative.

Quote from CrypticJacknife:

Right, that's my full say. If anything is grey or arbitrary in there, you are clearly forcing an opinion upon yourself and not looking at it from both sides.

I just don't see how your argument is even relevant. The whole 1 input thing is just.... People already have multiple inputs to games and that's not even considering the perfectly valid "scroll wheels are one action but many inputs" argument which you seem to have ignored (and which is currently allowed).

Quote from Exo:

Some might argue that a normal mousewheel does the same thing but that really only shows that they never tried to bhop in a source game. Retaining full speed while bhopping is an exact science with a mousewheel whereas it becomes selfworking with a freescroll wheel.

I agree it is different, but mice which scroll differently already make it easier or harder to bhop. If anything, allowing free scrollers evens the playing field and makes it fair. Banning scripts at least had the advantage that it stopped people using external programs (AHK) to run games. This is unmodified and popular hardware and is fully supported by games.

It's about time a ruling was done on this to be honest, with new games like portal 2 being run, it's a current issue. My view is since mice with scroll wheels are already accepted and there is variance between scrollability, unless you say all PC runners have to use a set mouse (which is ridiculous and you'd lose 95% of PC runners) then it's already unfair. Banning free scrollers doesn't make it fairer (since currently anyone can buy one), it just means everyone would have to get the next best alternative.

[quote="CrypticJacknife"] Right, that's my full say. If anything is grey or arbitrary in there, you are clearly forcing an opinion upon yourself and not looking at it from both sides.[/quote]

I just don't see how your argument is even relevant. The whole 1 input thing is just.... People already have multiple inputs to games and that's not even considering the perfectly valid "scroll wheels are one action but many inputs" argument which you seem to have ignored (and which is currently allowed).

[quote="Exo"]Some might argue that a normal mousewheel does the same thing but that really only shows that they never tried to bhop in a source game. Retaining full speed while bhopping is an exact science with a mousewheel whereas it becomes selfworking with a freescroll wheel.[/quote]

I agree it is different, but mice which scroll differently already make it easier or harder to bhop. If anything, allowing free scrollers evens the playing field and makes it fair. Banning scripts at least had the advantage that it stopped people using external programs (AHK) to run games. This is unmodified and popular hardware and is fully supported by games.

Linkinito

2011-07-23 01:15:00 pm

This is my avatar

Free scrolling, in my opinion, is comparable to a turbo feature.
Turbo controllers are banned on SDA, so the free scrolling should be.

ridd3r.

2011-07-24 04:21:31 am

we have lift off

I think it's a mistake to compare console with PC. Yes turbo controllers aren't allowed for console, but scroll wheel is allowed for PC and that allows people to essentially press a button faster than they could normally anyway. The scroll wheel is a part of standard PC hardware like it or not, trying to put a cap on how well it scrolls is way too arbitrary.