Final Fantasy VIII

2012-12-24 10:16:42 am

Huge yes.

a PSP-3000 isn't that expensive either; nowadays you can find them for around $60-80 on eBay.

I didn't just buy it for speedrunning though; it's pretty much the best handheld system ever if you install a homebrew loader. With a homebrew loader installed (which puts it into a temporary debug mode), you can also get away with using PSN too as long as said homebrew loader is not enabled. So, PSone Classics and emulators ahoy!

FFgamer86

2012-12-24 01:14:39 pm

SDA Speedruns: 1

The training center corridor is not that long. The quad is much longer. Cafeteria is too far north compared to the Library, so the run back to the directory is shorter with the Library.

Poxnor

2013-01-04 01:13:05 am

Moo! Flap! Hug!

FFgamer, Nitrodon, and I were working on getting lots of Meteor Strikes into the Diablos fight quickly. As part of that, we figured out the correct state transition table for Zell's Duel limit break (there's a lot of incorrect information out there on it. Here it is:

Code:

Punch Rush [0] > Booya [1], Mach Kick [5], Dolphin Blow [3]
Booya [1] > Punch Rush [0], Heel Drop [2], Meteor Strike [4]
Heel Drop [2] > Booya [1], Mach Kick [6], Meteor Strike [7]
Dolphin Blow [3] > Heel Drop [10], Mach Kick [5], Meteor Barret [22]
Meteor Strike [4] > Booya [12], Heel Drop [2], Dolphin Blow [11]
Mach Kick [5] > Punch Rush [8], Dolphin Blow [9], Booya [1]
Mach Kick [6] > Punch Rush [15], Heel Drop [13], Meteor Strike [4]
Meteor Strike [7] > Booya [14], Dolphin Blow [9], My Final Heaven [23]
Punch Rush [8] > Heel Drop [19], Dolphin Blow [3], Meteor Strike [18]
Dolphin Blow [9] > Booya [1], Heel Drop [2], Meteor Strike [4]
Heel Drop [10] > Punch Rush [0], Mach Kick [16], Meteor Barret [22]
Dolphin Blow [11] > Punch Rush [0], Booya [1], Mach Kick [16]
Booya [12] > Punch Rush [17], Dolphin Blow [11], Different Beat [24]
Heel Drop [13] > Booya [12], Dolphin Blow [20], Meteor Strike [4]
Booya [14] > Heel Drop [19], Dolphin Blow [9], Burning Rave [21]
Punch Rush [15] > Heel Drop [2], Meteor Strike [7], My Final Heaven [23]
Mach Kick [16] > Punch Rush [0], Dolphin Blow [3], Meteor Barret [22]
Punch Rush [17] > Mach Kick [16], Dolphin Blow [11], Different Beat [24]
Meteor Strike [18] > Heel Drop [19], Mach Kick [5], Burning Rave [21]
Heel Drop [19] > Mach Kick [5], Dolphin Blow [9], Burning Rave [21]
Dolphin Blow [20] > Booya [12], Meteor Strike [4], Different Beat [24]
Burning Rave [21] >
Meteor Barret [22] >
My Final Heaven [23] >
Different Beat [24] >

Initial action is either Punch Rush [0] or Booya [1].

In case anyone want to play around with the this transition table programmatically, e.g., for search purposes, I've tossed a simple implementation of this transition table up with this post.

FFgamer, Nitrodon, and I were working on getting lots of Meteor Strikes into the Diablos fight quickly.  As part of that, we figured out the correct state transition table for Zell's Duel limit break (there's a lot of incorrect information out there on it.  Here it is:

[code]Punch Rush [0] > Booya [1], Mach Kick [5], Dolphin Blow [3]
Booya [1] > Punch Rush [0], Heel Drop [2], Meteor Strike [4]
Heel Drop [2] > Booya [1], Mach Kick [6], Meteor Strike [7]
Dolphin Blow [3] > Heel Drop [10], Mach Kick [5], Meteor Barret [22]
Meteor Strike [4] > Booya [12], Heel Drop [2], Dolphin Blow [11]
Mach Kick [5] > Punch Rush [8], Dolphin Blow [9], Booya [1]
Mach Kick [6] > Punch Rush [15], Heel Drop [13], Meteor Strike [4]
Meteor Strike [7] > Booya [14], Dolphin Blow [9], My Final Heaven [23]
Punch Rush [8] > Heel Drop [19], Dolphin Blow [3], Meteor Strike [18]
Dolphin Blow [9] > Booya [1], Heel Drop [2], Meteor Strike [4]
Heel Drop [10] > Punch Rush [0], Mach Kick [16], Meteor Barret [22]
Dolphin Blow [11] > Punch Rush [0], Booya [1], Mach Kick [16]
Booya [12] > Punch Rush [17], Dolphin Blow [11], Different Beat [24]
Heel Drop [13] > Booya [12], Dolphin Blow [20], Meteor Strike [4]
Booya [14] > Heel Drop [19], Dolphin Blow [9], Burning Rave [21]
Punch Rush [15] > Heel Drop [2], Meteor Strike [7], My Final Heaven [23]
Mach Kick [16] > Punch Rush [0], Dolphin Blow [3], Meteor Barret [22]
Punch Rush [17] > Mach Kick [16], Dolphin Blow [11], Different Beat [24]
Meteor Strike [18] > Heel Drop [19], Mach Kick [5], Burning Rave [21]
Heel Drop [19] > Mach Kick [5], Dolphin Blow [9], Burning Rave [21]
Dolphin Blow [20] > Booya [12], Meteor Strike [4], Different Beat [24]
Burning Rave [21] >
Meteor Barret [22] >
My Final Heaven [23] >
Different Beat [24] >

Initial action is either Punch Rush [0] or Booya [1].[/code]
In case anyone want to play around with the this transition table programmatically, e.g., for search purposes, I've tossed a simple implementation of this transition table up with this post.

Attachment:

DuelState.java

gyth

2013-01-04 07:18:38 pm

I've seen
(Punch Rush [0]) > Booya [1] > { Meteor Strike [4] > Heel Drop [2] > Booya [1] > }

This looks better
(Punch Rush [0]) > Booya [1] > { Meteor Strike [4] > Heel Drop [2] > Meteor Strike [7] > Dolphin Blow [9] > }

Were you thinking of letting Zell gravity with little str, and then finish off with a junctioned Squall?

Nitrodon

2013-01-04 08:00:28 pm

The current plan is to make a junctioned Zell gravity about 5-6 times and then finish him off in the same Duel.

I also made a graphical representation of that state transition table. It's much cleaner than I would have expected.

Attachment:

Duel2.png

Caracarn

2013-01-05 02:44:40 pm

So the new Duel order strat is now

1. Booya
2. Meteor Strike
3. Heel Drop
4. Meteor Strike
5. Dolphin Blow
6. Booya
7. Meteor Strike
8. Heel Drop
9. Meteor Strike
10.Dolphin Blow
11.Heel Drop
12.Meteor Strike
13.Dolphin Blow
14.Heel Drop
15.Booya
16.Punch Rush
17.Dolphin Blow
18.Heel Drop
19.Punch Rush

Compared to the old strat of

1. Booya
2. Meteor Strike
3. Heel Drop
4. Booya
5. Meteor Strike
6. Heel Drop
7. Booya
8. Meteor Strike
9. Heel Drop
10.Booya
11.Meteor Strike
12.Heel Drop
13.Booya
14.Meteor Strike
15.Heel Drop
16.Booya
17.Punch Rush
18.Dolphin Blow
19.Heel Drop
20.Punch Rush
21.Dolphin Blow

I think I'm still more comfortable with the old strat on the 4 second timer, since there are less dolphin blows, meaning quicker inputs, but the new strat is surely better for the longer timers.

FFgamer86

2013-01-06 05:26:24 am

SDA Speedruns: 1

Thats not the Strat I use caracarn anymore. I changed it again, when poxnor got the new tables. Its

1. Booya
2. Meteor Strike
3. Heel Drop
4. Meteor Strike
5. Dolphin Blow
6. Meteor Strike
7. Heel Drop
8. Meteor Strike
9. Dolphin Blow
10. Metoer Strike
11. Heel Drop
12. Meteor Strike
13. Dolphin Blow
14. Booya
15. Punch Rush
16. Dolphin Blow

Realize if you crit on one of the Meteor Strikes, you can stop at 15. Punch Rush

Also here is link to my 9:09:49 SS Run on PS2 Fast Disc Speed http://www.twitch.tv/ffgamer86/b/354412690#

Sush

Edit history:

Sush: 2013-01-10 02:48:25 am

Sush: 2013-01-10 02:47:08 am

Sush: 2013-01-10 02:45:01 am

Sush: 2013-01-10 02:43:25 am

2013-01-10 02:41:57 am

That is a really impressive effort. I have no doubt you can get that to a comfortable sub-9. Damn nice.

I was wondering something: I'd like to redo my segmented run and iron out some of the glaring errors from my last attempt. The thing is I would enjoy doing this on the NTSC version simply so that its comparable to other runs and would provide a comparison for other people to challenge it.

On the other hand my new laptop somehow runs the strange enhanced textures included in the PC port and it looks super super smooth. Also I've finally added in a sound mod so all the music is actually up to par. If anything the quality is much better than the PS versions.

Long story short: I'd like to make a "perfect" Segmented run, and would like to know if people would be more interested in a NTSC version which would require me to get a PS2 delivered to the UK.

Caracarn

2013-01-10 04:45:59 am

I would be more interested in seeing a run on the console version, I won't speak for anyone else though.

FFgamer86

Edit history:

FFgamer86: 2013-01-11 12:11:25 am

2013-01-11 12:09:43 am

SDA Speedruns: 1

I agree, with Caracarn. Its much nicer for comparison since PC is so ridicuously fast, faster than the tas. I was also thinking of perhaps routing some segmented stuff in the future after C4L. It could take awhile though since I'm going to probably go super risky since its segmented.

EDIT: Not sure how realistic this goal is, but I think it would be nice if I could get the single segment time down to sub 8:47 because that would make it faster than the original segmented run that dark wasabi did. Not sure how easy it would be to get it down that low but I know sub 9 should not be that hard. My disc 1 was horrible.

Sush

2013-01-16 04:03:20 pm

Well well, bought an NTSC PS2 Slim and a copy of the game of ebay on the cheap so planning commence!

I don't think I'll even attempt a single segment run as my skill/patience isn't comparable to that of you lot but I'm more than happy to bang my head at specific segments. Already looking forward to getting Zells' card in one round...

FFgamer86

2013-01-17 07:21:28 pm

SDA Speedruns: 1

Ill prob work on doing segmented route after c4l

DarkKobold

2013-01-31 12:54:47 am

RPG TASer

From Poxnor's stream, here is my step script. If you got perfect stutter stepping, you can skip 1 encounter in Ifrit's cave. I never got this script to work for the roll-over, after all 255 steps have been used. Maybe someone can tell me why it's wrong.

Attachment:

StepScript2.lua

Poxnor

Edit history:

Poxnor: 2013-01-31 02:24:06 am

2013-01-31 02:23:48 am

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Just taking a swing in the dark (I haven't had much time to look at it or play with it), but it looks like your script doesn't make use of the Offsync value, which was described here: http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/final_fantasy_viii_no_more_speedrunning_for_me_sadface27.html

Could that possibly be the problem?

Poxnor

2013-01-31 02:49:02 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Some awesome improvements to TriadHelper, with some great effort from Nitrodon. Nitrodon figured out that the FF8 AI is using a fixed-depth alpha-beta search with the game-score as the evaluation function, ties broken (non-uniformly?) randomly. While the fixed-depth d is different for different in-game opponents (e.g., d=1 for Minimog kid, d=2 for Trepie #1), that's a tuneable parameter in the TriadHelper. So, figure out the right depth (model.verify in /etc/triadHelper.conf may help, to some extent, with that) and you're good to go.

As an example, the bot already came up with a reliable strategy for when you're trying to get the Quistis card, if Trepie #1 plays first turn Quistis to spot #4 (the response is a blood bat to spot #6, then hope to recapture the blood bat from below).

As always, old attachments deleted, new ones posted (31 Jan 2013, v. 2.0-beta1) -- yeah, I figured all that opponent-modelling stuff finally earned this old horse a version bump Tongue

Attachments:

triadHelper-2.0-beta1-src.tgz

triadHelper-2.0-beta1.tgz

TengEng

Edit history:

TengEng: 2013-02-04 03:04:05 pm

2013-02-04 02:41:29 pm

Whatever, just do it quickly.

The strategy that you explored will be very helpful in a segmented run. You can get the Quistis card after returning from Fire Cavern and before you get changed. Then get the Zell card Zell card on the way back from Dollet. I'm thinking that DarkWasabi used a similar route since it's so easy to be selective about your RNG during a segmented run.

The SS route and the Segmented route are going to be vastly different from each other.

The fact that they are fixed-depth alpha betas with depth 1/2 are much easier to play against. The alpha-beta positional evaluation is trivially based on number of cards, correct? Next step would be to figure out how it breaks ties, so as to manipulate the game into playing blunders.

Poxnor

Edit history:

Poxnor: 2013-02-04 03:34:46 pm

2013-02-04 03:33:43 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

How it breaks ties is random -- Nitrodon knows the details. I know enough to know that all possible tied hands must be considered (all tied moves are possible), but I don't know if it breaks ties uniformly.

As for the seg'd route: no point in getting Zell card upon returning from Dollet. Get it before going to Timber, so you can save right before the 1/10 card game.

Sush

2013-02-11 03:19:41 pm

I drempt last night that I managed to glitch myself into the Dollet bar on the way up to the tower by use of menu toggling/stutter stepping. I believed I actually managed it for a good few minutes after waking up and was so stocked to find such a big skip in the game.

Maybe I should take a days break...

FFgamer86

2013-02-12 08:47:57 pm

SDA Speedruns: 1

The good thing about this skip if possible is that the only thing skipped is gf siren. So we would only need to fimd away to get another spell for junctioning to hp.

Sush

2013-02-13 09:23:37 am

A few questions for you fine fellows, if you'd be so kind:

- Is the NTSC port run on the PS2 with fast disk the same speed as the PS3 version or is it faster?

- For a segmented run would lowering the battle speed slightly (like in the TAS) be beneficial to getting in more attacks or is this something you could do with enough retries? If the latter it would be best to leave it on max I'm guessing. A good example of this is trying to kill Raijin/Fujin before they can cast Tornado (unnnng).

- In my endless quest to try to find a way around using Shiva in the Granaldo/Raldo fight I've been thinking about Ultra Waves. The problem is even though it casts much much faster I'm unsure about the chance of it doing enough damage to kill all the Raldos in one shot. Would using it, even with the highest Crisis Level, do enough?

FFgamer86

2013-02-13 09:38:03 am

SDA Speedruns: 1

my PS3 run is 9:43 whereas PS2 Fast disc runs are closing in on 8:50. I think top speed with enough retries would be sufficient. In the end it would generate a faster time since dont have to open a menu.

TenGeng

2013-02-13 09:56:27 am

Quote from Sush:

- For a segmented run would lowering the battle speed slightly (like in the TAS) be beneficial to getting in more attacks or is this something you could do with enough retries? If the latter it would be best to leave it on max I'm guessing. A good example of this is trying to kill Raijin/Fujin before they can cast Tornado (unnnng).

Lower battle speed from 1 to 2 doubles the amount of time it takes to refill the action bar. The time gained by fastest is small, but steady the time lost by one extra action is fairly large. You'll have to test it.

Quote from Sush:

- In my endless quest to try to find a way around using Shiva in the Granaldo/Raldo fight I've been thinking about Ultra Waves. The problem is even though it casts much much faster I'm unsure about the chance of it doing enough damage to kill all the Raldos in one shot. Would using it, even with the highest Crisis Level, do enough?

For UltraWaves, Quistis is doing magical damage so you'll want something to junction to her magic, but unlike physical attacks Magic matters much less than Str. I think Waters are still the best bet there. Instead the key is the attack power for the magical spell. From the lower crisis levels to the highest, the attack power goes from 27 to 48. This near doubling will represents something like a tripling of your damage. I'm not sure if you will be able to kill them all though.

[quote="Sush"]
- For a segmented run would lowering the battle speed slightly (like in the TAS) be beneficial to getting in more attacks or is this something you could do with enough retries? If the latter it would be best to leave it on max I'm guessing. A good example of this is trying to kill Raijin/Fujin before they can cast Tornado (unnnng).
[/quote]
Lower battle speed from 1 to 2 doubles the amount of time it takes to refill the action bar.  The time gained by fastest is small, but steady the time lost by one extra action is fairly large.   You'll have to test it.

[quote="Sush"]
- In my endless quest to try to find a way around using Shiva in the Granaldo/Raldo fight I've been thinking about Ultra Waves. The problem is even though it casts much much faster I'm unsure about the chance of it doing enough damage to kill all the Raldos in one shot. Would using it, even with the highest Crisis Level, do enough?
[/quote]
For UltraWaves, Quistis is doing magical damage so you'll want something to junction to her magic, but unlike physical attacks Magic matters much less than Str.  I think Waters are still the best bet there.  Instead the key is the attack power for the magical spell.  From the lower crisis levels to the highest, the attack power goes from 27 to 48.  This near doubling will represents something like a tripling of your damage.  I'm not sure if you will be able to kill them all though.

Sush

2013-02-13 10:00:10 am

Extensive testing commencing.

TengEng

Edit history:

TengEng: 2013-02-13 10:28:46 am

2013-02-13 10:15:12 am

Whatever, just do it quickly.

I did some preliminary calculations.
Your median damage for Ultra Waves should be 800 at crisis level 4 for full waters junction.
With no water junction, you'll do 600.

These numbers are better than Shiva but not enough for a kill on Granaldo which has ~1400 hp. So you might still give the Waters to Squall for a strength junction Renzoku.

On a side note.
Low crisis level Ultrawaves ~330 w/ Water Junction
~200 w/o Water Junction.
These numbers are worse than a boosted Shiva. (333? @ 150 boost - only 270 on the Raldos)

Feedback would be helpful on whether or not these calculations are correct.

FFgamer86

Edit history:

FFgamer86: 2013-02-13 03:16:42 pm

2013-02-13 03:15:32 pm

SDA Speedruns: 1

Can you get the ultra waves quick enough that it will actually save time over a Shiva boost? From my experience in ps2 slim fast disc speed. A battle where you instantly runaway takes 19-20 seconds. Shiva boost is what 30 seconds?

You can also force the fish fight to give 6 fins instead of 5, so you'd have an extra 20 waters to junction to quistis if you give 100 to squall.