Final Fantasy VII

2013-06-01 12:03:41 am

Quote from Essentia:

I just wanted to point out that this isn't quite correct. When you die in FFVI and go back to your previous save, the in-game clock doesn't get reset. So if you take the time to level everyone up to 99, all that time will still be counted on the timer.

Really? I seem to remember there being Japanese runs that used the trick and thus managed to get very low game clock times because of it.

Wypy

2013-06-01 06:37:26 am

Deal with it!

In my opinion the "Yuffie Warp Glitch" falls into he same category as the "Emerald Weapon Countdown timer glitch" (http://antdgar.com/final-fantasy-vii/the-emerald-glitch-final-fantasy-vii/). So why not use that glitch too? Antdgar posted it and got no response here.

My opinion on this debate:
The Yuffie Warp Glitch needs you to load at least 1 save file to work so that rules out single-segment. It could be used for RTA/Segmented but it would have to be added to the time. For RTA the timer would start with the preparaton file and for a segmented the prepared save has to be an own segment doesn't it? Of course you could argue about his but thats how I see it. But don't get me wrong I would love to see that glitch in action, but I don't think it belongs into the current categories. I would create a new category to be able to abuse it. And I don't know if the countown glitched could be combined with the warping glitch in any way to make it even more broken.

BrutalAl

Edit history:

BrutalAl: 2013-06-01 08:02:35 am

BrutalAl: 2013-06-01 07:59:37 am

2013-06-01 07:58:48 am

Quote from Wypy:

...for a segmented the prepared save has to be an own segment doesn't it?

That's the thing, it doesn't have to be an own segment (which has been stated and explained in several posts now). The preparation is nothing but another "failed" segment.

But yeah, you're right about the Emerald Glitch being the same thing.
You don't need another file to do it, all you need to set it up is a failed segment, just like how you need failed segments to manipulate battle enemies through out the game (and other random things in the game for that matter).

EDIT: So yeah, there is no reason to not use the Emerald Glitch as well, seeing how you don't need a separate file/save for that glitch either.
Do note though, the Yuffie glitch is PC exclusive and the Emerald Glitch is PSX exclusive, so you'll never see both used in the same run.

Wypy

2013-06-01 08:08:44 am

Deal with it!

So why not create a major glitch abuse category where we would have 2 different runs in.
1. PC Version Yuffie Warp Abuse
2. PSX Version Emerald Countdown Abuse
Whoever has fun doing runs with those glitches. So we would still have the old runs in their category and the heavily glitched ones in their own category. With this everybody should be happy.

BrutalAl

2013-06-01 08:46:41 am

Going by puwexil's post I'm guessing SDA prefers to use generic labels such as the "with major skips" he mentions (I guess because that way you don't end up with an array of different sub-categories if there are several different major skips).

So we're still looking at regular Segmented and Single-Segmented categories.
Just with the suggestion that if the Yuffie glitch is used it will also be labeled "with major skips" (and thus not compete with its "no major skips" counterpart).

Now, if the Emerald glitch is a major skip or not is another question though.
Technically it doesn't really skip any parts of the game, it actually doesn't even skip the battles, it just makes each battle end a bit faster. It still glitches the game in a major way though if you ask me, no doubt, just not with any major skips. But perhaps a label such as "with major glitches" (as opposed to skips) is already in full use (I don't know), and if it is then then there's no need for that particular discussion.

Rakuen

2013-06-01 08:50:40 am

Weegee Time

Significant differences between versions of a game usually create separate categories. I don't think PC and PSX versions of FF7 compete against each other. Note that the current record specifically mentions it's running the PC version of the game, rather than just being a generic time. Each version could also have its own "with major skips" category.

Basically, minimizing categories isn't an exact science. Minimize categories to the extent that it makes sense.

Essentia

2013-06-01 09:40:27 am

Everything's better with Magitek

Quote from Melodia:

Quote from Essentia:

I just wanted to point out that this isn't quite correct. When you die in FFVI and go back to your previous save, the in-game clock doesn't get reset. So if you take the time to level everyone up to 99, all that time will still be counted on the timer.

Really? I seem to remember there being Japanese runs that used the trick and thus managed to get very low game clock times because of it.

Well, I just tested it in on the Japanese version, and the clock didn't reset. I'm not sure what those Japanese runs are using for timing.

antd

Edit history:

antd: 2013-06-22 09:24:36 am

antd: 2013-06-22 09:24:07 am

antd: 2013-06-22 09:23:35 am

2013-06-22 09:21:08 am

If someone decides to use the Yuffie Warp glitch then they should try to combine it with the Emerald Glitch.
It could be possible to use both together if there's a solution for having them work in each respective version.

KartSeven

2013-08-03 07:43:02 am

Kart for SMK, and Seven for FF7.

Hello all, I have a technical question about FFVII console speedrun. PS2 with Fast Disk option looks like the best choice to be the fastest possible compared to the good old PS1. But is there a gap between the differents PS2 ? A PS2 Slim is a little faster than the original one, or it doesn't matter ?

Caracarn

2013-08-03 11:25:15 pm

PS2 Slim is a bit faster than PS2 fat, and it also tends to have less problems reading ps1 discs on fast disc speed.

TamaHawk

2013-08-06 05:36:04 pm

Re-post from previous topic

Hello forum I'm TamaHawk I've recently been inclined to start speedrunning final fantasy games and the first one I wanted to start with was 7 being the first game in the series I played. I have a few general questions about 7 that also pertain to other entries as well as I'm trying to familiarize myself with the scene

1. Basic question concerning categories. What is accepted in the community as legit categories ( I.E single segment, segmented, RTA, non-glitch run glitched run etc ) ? Single Segment is difficult for me due to time restrictions with my ever changing work schedule. So I wanted to start playing this game in a segmented fashion as I learn it. I'm more of a casual speedrunner anyway so I'm not trying to break any records right now but I would like my casual runs to hold legitimacy in the community so I want to make sure I'm running legit categories.

2. Regarding Segmented runs what is typical for the start of the timer and the end of the segment time?

Thank's for all help regarding these questions Smiley

Re-post from previous topic

Hello forum I'm TamaHawk I've recently been inclined to start speedrunning final fantasy games and the first one I wanted to start with was 7 being the first game in the series I played. I have a few general questions about 7 that also pertain to other entries as well as I'm trying to familiarize myself with the scene

1. Basic question concerning categories. What is accepted in the community as legit categories ( I.E single segment, segmented, RTA, non-glitch run glitched run etc ) ? Single Segment is difficult for me due to time restrictions with my ever changing work schedule. So I wanted to start playing this game in a segmented fashion as I learn it. I'm more of a casual speedrunner anyway so I'm not trying to break any records right now but I would like my casual runs to hold legitimacy in the community so I want to make sure I'm running legit categories.

2. Regarding Segmented runs what is typical for the start of the timer and the end of the segment time?

Thank's for all help regarding these questions :)

puwexil

2013-08-06 05:51:54 pm

Professional Second Banana

1. SS/RTA and Segmented are the primary categories recognized by SDA, though a pretty strong case could also be made for Slots/Non-Slots to be separate categories as the routes & battle strats are completely different for 2/3rds of the game.

2. The in-game timer in FF7 is pretty accurate, so for SS or Segmented I would just use that to check your progress. Unfortunately it's not possible to see the clock after beating the game, so an SDA submission of FF7 for either category would be based on real-time.

Ginzuishou

2013-08-06 06:41:55 pm

Thank you TamaHawk, for saving me from having to ask that. However I would like to ask a different question still related to categories. So would a segmented glitchless slots run be a run that would be accepted under the community guidelines? I've read GarlandG's FAQ, he mentioned it was cheating, but I don't know if the rest of the community has the same view on it. Just seeing if there's some clarity for that.

Melodia

2013-08-07 12:00:17 am

So many things speedrunners do are cheating, but not doing a major game breaking glitch doesn't mean you can't use minor ones.

Kynos

2013-08-07 12:57:25 am

I don't see why a segmented glichtless slots run would be rejected on the basis of using slots. It should be obvious that Slots is not "cheating" in any way. In fact, one could merely argue that using slots means having to abuse a glitch that allows one to get Game Over regardless of the Evil Flag (unless one is using either of the PC re-releases, on which the Evil Flag appears to be turned off permanently).

On the other hand, I am not sure if glitchless is an established category seeing as it is not very different from a non-glitchless run. The only major glitch being used in runs is the Midgar Skip and all the other minor glitches (Midgar Zolom Cutscene Skip, City of the Ancients Paralysis Dodge Glitch, Northern Crater Save Crystal Glitch etc.) hardly add up to more than three minutes that can be saved by performing them.

Additionally, all other considerations aside, a slots run should be faster than a non-slots run to be accepted, and whether this is the case in segmented runs is actually far from being clear.

I don't see why a segmented glichtless slots run would be rejected on the basis of using slots. It should be obvious that Slots is not "cheating" in any way. In fact, one could merely argue that using slots means having to abuse a glitch that allows one to get Game Over regardless of the Evil Flag (unless one is using either of the PC re-releases, on which the Evil Flag appears to be turned off permanently).

On the other hand, I am not sure if glitchless is an established category seeing as it is not very different from a non-glitchless run. The only major glitch being used in runs is the Midgar Skip and all the other minor glitches (Midgar Zolom Cutscene Skip, City of the Ancients Paralysis Dodge Glitch, Northern Crater Save Crystal Glitch etc.) hardly add up to more than three minutes that can be saved by performing them.

Additionally, all other considerations aside, a slots run should be faster than a non-slots run to be accepted, and whether this is the case in segmented runs is actually far from being clear.

Wypy

2013-08-07 04:20:56 am

Deal with it!

Slots is an established category for SS/RTA runs nowadays and I don't see any reason why it should be handled differently for segmented speedruns.

Ginzuishou

2013-08-07 05:39:43 am

Hey Kynos. I hope you are the person who's segmented run I've been watching on YouTube and that I would end up talking to you about FFVII in general =P
Your segmented run gave me lots of inspiration. I've always loved FFVII, and have always wanted to attempt running it. The reason I was thinking about glitchess was to not deviate from what was intended through a normal playthrough other than it just being faster, with using slots I would assume it should be.

With that said, I knew slots was an established SS/RTA category, Wypy. I just wanted so more clarification from other people on it before I sank my entire heart and soul into this as I was planning. I was still going to make a run at it regardless, but now that I know that it isn't a major deal as the FAQ made it out to be, Cait Sith and I are going to become really good friends.

KartSeven

2013-08-09 01:35:45 pm

Kart for SMK, and Seven for FF7.

Thanks for your answer Caracarn. Wink

Talking about the Slots category, I have another question about this one ; a separate category was created because of the 'Game Over' limit break. But what if you use Cait Sith's other limit breaks (Lucky Girl, Mog Dance, ...), and never Game Over ?

Are the 2 categories really Slots / No Slots, or rather Game Over / No Game Over ?

Ginzuishou

2013-08-09 06:33:21 pm

Pretty much. Game Over/ No Game Over are like the only main categories that you could run. However you sub-category those into glitchless and with major skips. I'm sure someone else can come up with some other sub-categories, but those are the only ones I can think of atm.

Wypy

2013-08-09 07:23:47 pm

Deal with it!

I think the main issue of the other slots abilties are that the time used getting slots is more then the other abilities could save. I could be wrong but thats what I think.

Carcinogen

Edit history:

Carcinogen: 2013-08-12 11:07:22 am

Carcinogen: 2013-08-12 11:05:50 am

2013-08-12 11:03:54 am

I'm playing around with the SaGa Frontier disc trick for fun, so I can maybe do a run of it during the bonus stream at AGDQ'14.

If you guys saw the AGDQ'13 bonus stream, you'd know what i'm talking about, but if you don't...

RE: Wypy -

I would say "no" on needing the PHS route-wise, because all the character switching you'd need to do is during events anyway. Here's the problem though: last I checked, Choco-Billy won't give you Chocobo Lure until you complete the Kalm segment. I need a chocobo in order to be able to do the glitch, because if I get into a battle while the SaGa disc is in my PS2, the game will crash.

I could get the Water Ring then run back to the next area, but... I think I need a higher level Chocobo Lure to get another chocobo, for one. Judging from my extremely low Chocobo Encounter% when I was trying to get one around Gold Saucer, I had to go all the way back to the Chocobo Farm before I encountered one... I'm going to use Matra Magic anyway to get Slots since the Mythril Mines are directly on the way back to the Chocobo Farm. I like Mythril Mines for grinding limits in normal playthroughs, because you can encounter 3-5 enemy mobs.

I'm playing around with the SaGa Frontier disc trick for fun, so I can maybe do a run of it during the bonus stream at AGDQ'14.

If you guys saw the AGDQ'13 bonus stream, you'd know what i'm talking about, but if you don't...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPf6xttVsFU

RE: Wypy -

I would say "no" on needing the PHS route-wise, because all the character switching you'd need to do is during events anyway. Here's the problem though: last I checked, Choco-Billy won't give you Chocobo Lure until you complete the Kalm segment. I need a chocobo in order to be able to do the glitch, because if I get into a battle while the SaGa disc is in my PS2, the game will crash.

I could get the Water Ring then run back to the next area, but... I think I need a higher level Chocobo Lure to get another chocobo, for one. Judging from my extremely low Chocobo Encounter% when I was trying to get one around Gold Saucer, I had to go all the way back to the Chocobo Farm before I encountered one... I'm going to use Matra Magic anyway to get Slots since the Mythril Mines are directly on the way back to the Chocobo Farm. I like Mythril Mines for grinding limits in normal playthroughs, because you can encounter 3-5 enemy mobs.

Wypy

Edit history:

Wypy: 2013-08-12 06:38:40 pm

2013-08-12 06:14:33 pm

Deal with it!

Yeah gringing at the Mythril Mines sounds good. I didn't know that Choco-Billy doesn't sell it to you until you visited Kalm (I don't see any reason for that though), but I never tried buying it before doing the flashback myself. I just assumed you could.

Segachief in Kyons chat told me he tested getting chocobo lure before entering Kalm and was able to do it.

Carcinogen

2013-08-13 08:03:17 am

I like to be wrong. Smiley

Ginzuishou

2013-08-14 05:01:50 am

Been working on some practice for my run, been able to get to Aps consistently in RTA at 1:00:00. I need to work on not clipping into walls and getting stuck. I assume if I just start doing segments I could shave at least a minute off, because last attempt I messed up both the scorpion and air buster fight having them both take more time than I wanted to.

I talked to Kynos about routing one day, and I have a question for him, or for anyone else if they feel so inclined to help with an answer. Aqualung, being that it is first available right after the Gold saucer by fighting a Harpy and most enemies in the game don't have water resist, it would be beneficial/if not crucial to the run to insert a segment of learning Aqualung right after the saucer correct? I was thinking about this as to learn it asap and use it to get Cait Sith his 40 enemy kills prior to Materia Keeper.

Also, I was wondering, instead of using a T/S Bomb on the Icicles in Gaea's cliff if it would be faster to just learn Laser while in Prison, again in it's own segment.

I will have Zero time to test both of these in the next few days as I'm starting a new Job today, and my next day off won't be until Monday. Don't know if anyone has the quick right answer to these.

Been working on some practice for my run, been able to get to Aps consistently in RTA at 1:00:00. I need to work on not clipping into walls and getting stuck. I assume if I just start doing segments I could shave at least a minute off, because last attempt I messed up both the scorpion and air buster fight having them both take more time than I wanted to.

I talked to Kynos about routing one day, and I have a question for him, or for anyone else if they feel so inclined to help with an answer. Aqualung, being that it is first available right after the Gold saucer by fighting a Harpy and most enemies in the game don't have water resist, it would be beneficial/if not crucial to the run to insert a segment of learning Aqualung right after the saucer correct? I was thinking about this as to learn it asap and use it to get Cait Sith his 40 enemy kills prior to Materia Keeper.

Also, I was wondering, instead of using a T/S Bomb on the Icicles in Gaea's cliff if it would be faster to just learn Laser while in Prison, again in it's own segment.

I will have Zero time to test both of these in the next few days as I'm starting a new Job today, and my next day off won't be until Monday. Don't know if anyone has the quick right answer to these.

Kynos

2013-08-14 05:52:08 am

Hey,
at least in RTAs, Aqualung is acquired as soon as possible (right after leaving the Corel Desert Prison) and used by Cait Sith to increase his Kill count to 40.
Now, for segmented runs, I am sure Aqualung is even more useful because other means of dealing damage with Cait Sith before learning Slots, i.e. Summons and Right Arms (which are limited in number though because stealing them, even in one attempt each, takes additional time), are by far slower than Aqualung.
I believe it would be fastest to learn Aqualung in the same segment you fight Dyne in for these reasons:
-In a segmented Slots Run, you don't need Laser (probably no T/S Bombs either) as you use Slots to beat the Icicles (which one can do also in RTAs).
-Saving after Dyne to have the Harpy encounter in its own segment wastes time, in particular because you will have to spend at least 10 seconds at the beginning of a potential Harpy segment only on driving through the desert to trigger an encounter in the first place.

By the way, I assume that routing the "kill 40 enemies with Cait Sith" part of a segmented Slots Run might very well be one of the most crucial points of it.
Obviously, you will want to get/manipulate encounters with as many enemies as possible to learn Slots without having to waste time on random battles.

Hey,
at least in RTAs, Aqualung is acquired as soon as possible (right after leaving the Corel Desert Prison) and used by Cait Sith to increase his Kill count to 40.
Now, for segmented runs, I am sure Aqualung is even more useful because other means of dealing damage with Cait Sith before learning Slots, i.e. Summons and Right Arms (which are limited in number though because stealing them, even in one attempt each, takes additional time), are by far slower than Aqualung.
I believe it would be fastest to learn Aqualung in the same segment you fight Dyne in for these reasons:
-In a segmented Slots Run, you don't need Laser (probably no T/S Bombs either) as you use Slots to beat the Icicles (which one can do also in RTAs).
-Saving after Dyne to have the Harpy encounter in its own segment wastes time, in particular because you will have to spend at least 10 seconds at the beginning of a potential Harpy segment only on driving through the desert to trigger an encounter in the first place.

By the way, I assume that routing the "kill 40 enemies with Cait Sith" part of a segmented Slots Run might very well be one of the most crucial points of it.
Obviously, you will want to get/manipulate encounters with as many enemies as possible to learn Slots without having to waste time on random battles.