Final Fantasy VII

2013-01-23 02:48:04 am

Final Fantasy VII Fanatic

When you do the Midgar skip it messes up the music on disc 3, if you take the 30 seconds to reset and load up it fixes the music, don't know if the trade off is worth it, the music is nice...

cR4p0

2013-02-06 11:31:56 am

I'm not sure it has already been posted but I just found alot of informations by the Qhimm team so this may be helpfull for some of you : http://q-gears.sourceforge.net/gears.pdf

Tons of info, data values and precisely how display works. English is not my native language, it'll be more helpfull for you than me Smiley

Neohart

2013-02-09 09:26:31 pm

Final Fantasy VII Fanatic

If anyone else is working on the PC version, all the skips so far seem to be working for me, Even the midgar skip has music after!

GarlandG

2013-02-15 11:46:52 am

I will knock you all down!

So that's how that is.

Mikethetv

2013-02-17 08:39:25 am

Hi, I just registered and am starting a FF7 run. I did one in the past without working too hard and made it inside the northern cave in 7:20 so I figured that I would try and beat my old time. I was wondering what glitches are permitted by the SDA while completing the run (i.e. the w-item glitch, hojo glitch, etc.)?

I have no name

2013-02-17 12:42:55 pm

Obscure games ftw

Everything goes as long as you don't mess with the console while it's playing the game (i.e. anything involves ejecting the disc tray except when you're supposed to swap discs)

nitwit

2013-03-19 09:42:26 pm

7:56:03 RTA by エマノン:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/mylist/36315884

RTA community rules apply. (Timed from power-on to the end; turbo is allowed; midgar skip is banned.)

I think that this run compares really favorably with the old Ultimania 7:26 TA. The 7:26 time was a final save time, and in emanon's new run, right before Jenova-SYNTHESIS, the game clock is sitting around 7:28 (real-time around 7:30).

BrutalAl

Edit history:

BrutalAl: 2013-03-22 06:31:44 pm

BrutalAl: 2013-03-22 06:25:11 pm

BrutalAl: 2013-03-22 06:24:24 pm

2013-03-22 05:06:34 pm

Just to elaborate

FF7(INT)
7h:56m:03s RTA by エマノン
=
7h:36m:48s final hit, in-game timer.
(Rounded up to nearest second, final hit considered to be first frame with visible damage/number, and the minor lag the in-game timer suffers from has been accounted for).

Add 7m54s (since it's single segment and since I don't know the total number of pickups) to get a rough US/NTSC equivalent
7h:36m:48s(J/INT)
=
7h:44m:42s(US/NTSC)

I haven't watched the entire run, but in case you're wondering, he does not save/load to avoid Midgar Zolom, and he does not save/load to avoid any Bandits in Corel Prison, so the run would possibly have passed as a legit Single-Segment by SDA ruling if it hadn't been for the fact that a turbo controller was used.

EDIT:
The old Ultimania Time Attack had a final time of 7h:55m:34s, not at the END-screen, but as the time when the "Title Logo" appears with a black background (this is just before the END-screen).
I'm going to assume they got the time from last visible in-game timer + manual timing (making no adjustments for in-game timer being a tad bit slower than actual time).

Now, If we do the same with the 7h:56m:03s RTA by エマノン we get:
7h:30m:55s (last visible in-game timer) + 23m:05s (manual timing up to logo) = 7h:54m:00s, a new all times, all categories, world record by a 1m 34s margin.

Just to elaborate

FF7(INT)
7h:56m:03s RTA by エマノン
=
7h:36m:48s final hit, in-game timer.
(Rounded up to nearest second, final hit considered to be first frame with visible damage/number, and the minor lag the in-game timer suffers from has been accounted for).

Add 7m54s (since it's single segment and since I don't know the total number of pickups) to get a rough US/NTSC equivalent
7h:36m:48s(J/INT)
=
7h:44m:42s(US/NTSC)

I haven't watched the entire run, but in case you're wondering, he does not save/load to avoid Midgar Zolom, and he does not save/load to avoid any Bandits in Corel Prison, so the run would possibly have passed as a legit Single-Segment by SDA ruling if it hadn't been for the fact that a turbo controller was used.

EDIT:
The old Ultimania Time Attack had a final time of 7h:55m:34s, not at the END-screen, but as the time when the "Title Logo" appears with a black background (this is just before the END-screen).
I'm going to assume they got the time from last visible in-game timer + manual timing (making no adjustments for in-game timer being a tad bit slower than actual time).

Now, If we do the same with the 7h:56m:03s RTA by エマノン we get:
7h:30m:55s (last visible in-game timer) + 23m:05s (manual timing up to logo) = 7h:54m:00s, a new all times, all categories, world record by a 1m 34s margin.

Neohart

2013-03-30 06:54:14 pm

Final Fantasy VII Fanatic

Quote from Mikethetv:

Hi, I just registered and am starting a FF7 run. I did one in the past without working too hard and made it inside the northern cave in 7:20 so I figured that I would try and beat my old time. I was wondering what glitches are permitted by the SDA while completing the run (i.e. the w-item glitch, hojo glitch, etc.)?

As far as I know, all those are acceptable within the community, except the Japanese don't do the Midgar skip.

CarNage64

2013-04-18 01:35:24 pm

Speed Runner

Got an 8:28 on the NTSC version no slots on PS2 on Tuesday, with plenty of mistakes and bad luck to save time on imma hit that sub 824 soon i feel Cheesy

puwexil

2013-04-25 08:03:39 am

Professional Second Banana

Got an 8:20:14 Single-Segment (No Slots) on the NTSC-U PSX version last weekend - big thanks to BrutalAl and Wypy for helping me massively improve my route and beat my previous PB by 45 minutes.

Recording is at with links in the video description to the Twitch recordings if you want to see my live commentary and split times.

Going to keep working on the run and hopefully get down into the 8:10-8:15 range within the next few months.

Neohart

Edit history:

Neohart: 2013-05-12 12:27:44 am

Neohart: 2013-05-12 12:21:08 am

2013-05-12 12:19:27 am

Final Fantasy VII Fanatic

I found a nice little glitch on the PC version of the game I thought I'd share. It warps you around the game to various fights. I call it the "Yuffie Warp"

I tested this on the playstation version and it did appear to work. (I know this in the Console thread and NOT PC but it still applys to FF7)

I don't know exactly how it's fully triggered but here is what I know: You die to any fight in the game (Except battles on the world map) without closing the game, you then load a file. (Here is where it get's tricky) You have to make sure you'r first encounter is with Yuffie (I prefer around Rocket Town for the high encounter rate) then you simply beat her. After you get the experience and gil for winning you start a fight with what killed you.

Now I tested warping back to various parts of the game. Some parts play out as if it was the first time being there. Others it soft locked my game since the events already happened. I warped to Safer Sephiroth and once I beat it. It triggered doing the Final Decent even tho I skipped it. I have not tested every little place you can warp or how you can abuse it.

I used a file where Cloud was not in the party and warped to "Bottemswell" and after I beat him.... Well, here is what happened as my game soft locked:

TLDR: Die to a enemy (Bosses work)
Load a file and Fight Yuffie as the first encounter
After the fight is over: Instead of recruiting Yuffie you fight what gave you a game over.

I don't see this being useful in a speed run setting since you have to use multiple files to exploit it, but in a 100% perfect game this can be used to get items that are one time things. I found this randomly while testing routing ideas with Yuffie.

Here is my video explaining it and a quick preview on how it looks: http://www.twitch.tv/neohart/c/2266897

I found a nice little glitch on the PC version of the game I thought I'd share. It warps you around the game to various fights. I call it the "Yuffie Warp"

I tested this on the playstation version and it did appear to work. (I know this in the Console thread and NOT PC but it still applys to FF7)

I don't know exactly how it's fully triggered but here is what I know: You die to any fight in the game (Except battles on the world map) without closing the game, you then load a file. (Here is where it get's tricky) You have to make sure you'r first encounter is with Yuffie (I prefer around Rocket Town for the high encounter rate) then you simply beat her. After you get the experience and gil for winning you start a fight with what killed you.

Now I tested warping back to various parts of the game. Some parts play out as if it was the first time being there. Others it soft locked my game since the events already happened. I warped to Safer Sephiroth and once I beat it. It triggered doing the Final Decent even tho I skipped it. I have not tested every little place you can warp or how you can abuse it.

I used a file where Cloud was not in the party and warped to "Bottemswell" and after I beat him.... Well, here is what happened as my game soft locked: [img]http://imgur.com/Ct4mtyX[/img]

TLDR: Die to a enemy (Bosses work)
Load a file and Fight Yuffie as the first encounter
After the fight is over: Instead of recruiting Yuffie you fight what gave you a game over.

I don't see this being useful in a speed run setting since you have to use multiple files to exploit it, but in a 100% perfect game this can be used to get items that are one time things. I found this randomly while testing routing ideas with Yuffie.

Here is my video explaining it and a quick preview on how it looks: [url]http://www.twitch.tv/neohart/c/2266897[/url]

DiscoCokkroach

2013-05-30 12:40:22 am

^ Can you die to JENOVA-Life, reload a save where Aerith is still available, then fight Yuffie, and bypass Aerith's "death"?

As for speed running, a potential application I could see for this is losing to a hard boss, reloading to a part where you can get an item that would help you defeat them, then fighting Yuffie and fight the boss again.

Regardless, I'm gonna try this glitch out and see what I can find Tongue

Kynos

2013-05-30 10:23:30 am

I don’t think I am very well known here but I just wanted to stop by to let you know that I am currently working on a segmented run of FF7 that will make use of the recently discovered Yuffie Warping Glitch (I am also about to finish an “ordinary” segmented PC run with a main goal of sub7 gametime, but that’s another story).

Anyway, as it has been less than a month that Neohart has discovered the most gamebreaking glitch of (the PC version of) Final Fantasy VII and since word of it does not seem to have spread that far yet, I would like to discuss its legitimacy as part of a speedrun and how Yuffie Warping could impact FF7 speedrun categories.

First of all, as Neohart explains, Yuffie Warping works in a rather simple way, it only works on the PC version (both the original 1998 and the 2012 rerelease) though.
You need to die in any boss battle or any random/scripted field map(!) encounter (it does not matter on which file).
Afterwards, when loading any file and immediately (without engaging in any other battles before that) fighting and defeating Yuffie, Yuffie Warping occurs.
If the previous Game Over was caused in a boss battle or a scripted field battle, one will have that very boss battle just after the EXP and spoils screen of the Mystery Ninja battle has been closed (just as in the Repeating Boss Glitch). If the previous Game Over was against a random field battle, one will be teleported to that very spot of that field map one died on without having that random battle again.

Obviously, Yuffie Warping is (almost) useless for RTAs (and hence Single Segments).

Still, due to how it is triggered, Yuffie Warping seems perfectly applicable for segmented runs.
Most importantly, one does NOT need more than one save file. All one needs is to make sure the last Game Over occurred on a specific boss, enemy or spot, and it is very well possible to accomplish this with just one save file, for instance by having a(n additional) Single Segment up until that precise point. Granted, that may be terribly inconvenient in several cases but that has always been the true nature of a segmented FF7 run…

So, in a segmented run, Yuffie Warping is nothing else than an extended soft reset.
Also, one exploits the soft resets mechanics already in “ordinary” segmented runs for a variety of reasons (mainly random battle manipulation on fields). Therefore, technically, Yuffie Warping is just one more instance of manipulation. Yes, Yuffie Warping is an incredibly powerful manipulation and one that involves a glitch but apart from that, it’s just the same as random battle manipulation on field maps by soft-resetting.

Nonetheless, Yuffie Warping clearly allows to beat FF7 (in segmented runs) in so little time (my goal is sub3 gametime) that ordinary segmented runs simply cannot compare in the least, which is why I would like to see Yuffie Warping as a completely new subcategory for segmented runs.

I don’t think I am very well known here but I just wanted to stop by to let you know that I am currently working on a segmented run of FF7 that will make use of the recently discovered Yuffie Warping Glitch (I am also about to finish an “ordinary” segmented PC run with a main goal of sub7 gametime, but that’s another story).

Anyway, as it has been less than a month that Neohart has discovered the most gamebreaking glitch of (the PC version of) Final Fantasy VII and since word of it does not seem to have spread that far yet, I would like to discuss its legitimacy as part of a speedrun and how Yuffie Warping could impact FF7 speedrun categories.

First of all, as Neohart explains, Yuffie Warping works in a rather simple way, it only works on the PC version (both the original 1998 and the 2012 rerelease) though.
You need to die in any boss battle or any random/scripted field map(!) encounter (it does not matter on which file).
Afterwards, when loading any file and immediately (without engaging in any other battles before that) fighting and defeating Yuffie, Yuffie Warping occurs.
If the previous Game Over was caused in a boss battle or a scripted field battle, one will have that very boss battle just after the EXP and spoils screen of the Mystery Ninja battle has been closed (just as in the Repeating Boss Glitch). If the previous Game Over was against a random field battle, one will be teleported to that very spot of that field map one died on without having that random battle again.

Obviously, Yuffie Warping is (almost) useless for RTAs (and hence Single Segments).

Still, due to how it is triggered, Yuffie Warping seems perfectly applicable for segmented runs.
Most importantly, one does NOT need more than one save file. All one needs is to make sure the last Game Over occurred on a specific boss, enemy or spot, and it is very well possible to accomplish this with just one save file, for instance by having a(n additional) Single Segment up until that precise point. Granted, that may be terribly inconvenient in several cases but that has always been the true nature of a segmented FF7 run…

So, in a segmented run, Yuffie Warping is nothing else than an extended soft reset.
Also, one exploits the soft resets mechanics already in “ordinary” segmented runs for a variety of reasons (mainly random battle manipulation on fields). Therefore, technically, Yuffie Warping is just one more instance of manipulation. Yes, Yuffie Warping is an incredibly powerful manipulation and one that involves a glitch but apart from that, it’s just the same as random battle manipulation on field maps by soft-resetting.

Nonetheless, Yuffie Warping clearly allows to beat FF7 (in segmented runs) in so little time (my goal is sub3 gametime)  that ordinary segmented runs simply cannot compare in the least, which is why I would like to see Yuffie Warping as a completely new subcategory for segmented runs.

I have no name

2013-05-30 11:52:11 am

Obscure games ftw

The thing is though, if my understanding is correct you need a 2nd file to perform the glitch. The problem is any time spent on a 2nd file setting up for the first file is also counted towards the time of the run, same thing holds if you "fork" the run partway through, all time spent performing things that aid the segmented run count towards the final time.

Kynos

Edit history:

Kynos: 2013-05-30 12:17:18 pm

Kynos: 2013-05-30 12:17:16 pm

Kynos: 2013-05-30 12:17:15 pm

2013-05-30 12:08:30 pm

No, you do not need a second file. You just need your last Game Over to occur at a specific point. Obviously, having a second file makes it easier to achieve this, but in a segmented run, it is just as possible to do this with only one file.
If you add up time for Game Overs (that is all the setup) here, you'd have to do the same thing for "ordinary" runs' manipulation of enemy encounters by purposefully getting a number of Game Overs to force a certain random battle. Of course, that would be absurd.

BrutalAl

2013-05-30 12:55:40 pm

Quote from I have no name:

The thing is though, if my understanding is correct you need a 2nd file to perform the glitch. The problem is any time spent on a 2nd file setting up for the first file is also counted towards the time of the run, same thing holds if you "fork" the run partway through, all time spent performing things that aid the segmented run count towards the final time.

While Kynos has already given an answer to this I'd like to elaborate on it.

In FF7 random battles are hardly random. If you start up your system, load a file and run into a field battle, that "random" battle will always be against enemy A, it's set in stone.
In fact, the only way to change the enemy in that "first" battle is to do the following.
-Start up your system, load the file, and play it for e.g. 3 battles in order to go through enemy A, B, and C.
-Once in the 3rd battle versus enemy C, get a Game Over (of soft-reset afterwards).
-Re-load the very same save (with no system re-start in between), run up to that "first" battle once more, and now it will be against enemy D (which perhaps was an enemy we wanted to face in order to get a good steal).

And this is the only way to manipulate the "Random" field battles in FF7, you play ahead, get a game over (or soft reset) where it is beneficial, and then load the same save once more. The current segmented PC run that is up on SDA already does this, and I don't know of any segmented FF7 run runner that doesn't do it, and time spent in "failed" segment attempts is obviously not added to the final time. (And I can't imagine FF7 would be the only game where this is the case).

So as Kynos says, the Yuffie warp can be (so long as you never create a "fork" segment) the very exact same thing as regular random battle manipulation.
You load your file, play up to a point where you want to game over in order to benefit yourself once you load the file again. The only difference is while Yuffie warping is quite an apparent manipulation, random battle manipulation is not.

[quote="I have no name"]The thing is though, if my understanding is correct you need a 2nd file to perform the glitch.  The problem is any time spent on a 2nd file setting up for the first file is also counted towards the time of the run, same thing holds if you "fork" the run partway through, all time spent performing things that aid the segmented run count towards the final time.[/quote]

While Kynos has already given an answer to this I'd like to elaborate on it.

In FF7 random battles are hardly random. If you start up your system, load a file and run into a field battle, that "random" battle will always be against enemy A, it's set in stone.
In fact, the only way to change the enemy in that "first" battle is to do the following.
-Start up your system, load the file, and play it for e.g. 3 battles in order to go through enemy A, B, and C.
-Once in the 3rd battle versus enemy C, get a Game Over (of soft-reset afterwards).
-Re-load the very same save (with no system re-start in between), run up to that "first" battle once more, and now it will be against enemy D (which perhaps was an enemy we wanted to face in order to get a good steal).

And this is the only way to manipulate the "Random" field battles in FF7, you play ahead, get a game over (or soft reset) where it is beneficial, and then load the same save once more. The current segmented PC run that is up on SDA already does this, and I don't know of any segmented FF7 run runner that doesn't do it, and time spent in "failed" segment attempts is obviously not added to the final time. (And I can't imagine FF7 would be the only game where this is the case).

So as Kynos says, the Yuffie warp can be (so long as you never create a "fork" segment) the very exact same thing as regular random battle manipulation.
You load your file, play up to a point where you want to game over in order to benefit yourself once you load the file again. The only difference is while Yuffie warping is quite an apparent manipulation, random battle manipulation is not.

Melodia

2013-05-31 12:12:59 am

Quote from Kynos:

No, you do not need a second file. You just need your last Game Over to occur at a specific point. Obviously, having a second file makes it easier to achieve this, but in a segmented run, it is just as possible to do this with only one file.
If you add up time for Game Overs (that is all the setup) here, you'd have to do the same thing for "ordinary" runs' manipulation of enemy encounters by purposefully getting a number of Game Overs to force a certain random battle. Of course, that would be absurd.

If you're going for clock time, sure. But you could do the same for FFVI using the trick (it's not even a gltich!) of saving at the second save point, leveing up to 99, dying, and crushing the game with high level characters. But the length of time it'd take to get to 99 (I assume lete river is the fastet way) would be far far longer than any actual speed run would be.
If you cut the part between saving near a Yuffie-forest and dying, there's no justification for the run -- it looks very much like somehow cheating.

[quote="Kynos"]No, you do not need a second file. You just need your last Game Over to occur at a specific point. Obviously, having a second file makes it easier to achieve this, but in a segmented run, it is just as possible to do this with only one file.
If you add up time for Game Overs (that is all the setup) here, you'd have to do the same thing for "ordinary" runs' manipulation of enemy encounters by purposefully getting a number of Game Overs to force a certain random battle. Of course, that would be absurd.[/quote]

If you're going for clock time, sure. But you could do the same for FFVI using the trick (it's not even a gltich!) of saving at the second save point, leveing up to 99, dying, and crushing the game with high level characters. But the length of time it'd take to get to 99 (I assume lete river is the fastet way) would be far far longer than any actual speed run would be.
If you cut the part between saving near a Yuffie-forest and dying, there's no justification for the run -- it looks very much like somehow cheating.

Kynos

Edit history:

Kynos: 2013-05-31 04:04:30 am

2013-05-31 04:03:57 am

I do not know enough about FF6's game mechanics to be able to compare Yuffie Warping with that FFVI trick you mention.

Nonetheless, regardless of how it may look like when one sees it for the first time, Yuffie Warping clearly is not cheating. Instead, it is exploiting a very major glitch.
To draw a comparison, if you were, without ever having witnessed it before, to watch the W-Item glitch being used, you would most likely assume it were cheating as well, however, the W-Item glitch is probably the most well-known glitch in FFVII today.

Melodia

Edit history:

Melodia: 2013-05-31 12:12:47 pm

2013-05-31 12:09:07 pm

The point, however, is that you need to 'set it up'. You can't just play for 6 hours and have it not count toward the speed run. Yes it's true that game overs don't count in segmented runs normally, but segments aren't (usually) influenced by the actions of what went on before (or if they are it's a simple RNG thing). I didn't say the Yuffie method WAS cheating, only that it LOOKS like it without the context of setting it up.

FWIW, what happens in FFVI is that, unlike every other FF game, when you die you don't return to the title screen, instead you get sent back to the last place you saved and keep exp and stats but nothing else -- including clock time. So if you save with Terra alone at the first opportunity, level to 99 on Lete River (or whereever else), and kill yourself, you now have a level 99 Terra at the very beginning of the game with only a few minutes shown on the clock (and since all party members join based on average level of the current party, everyone else joins at 99).

I'll grant this is a 'bit' different given that in this case you can't segment (since it doesn't go back to the title screen and thus you don't load a file), but it's a similar situation -- one that's been known for years -- but people don't consider it a legit tactic.

The point, however, is that you need to 'set it up'. You can't just play for 6 hours and have it not count toward the speed run. Yes it's true that game overs don't count in segmented runs normally, but segments aren't (usually) influenced by the actions of what went on before (or if they are it's a simple RNG thing). I didn't say the Yuffie method WAS cheating, only that it LOOKS like it without the context of setting it up.

FWIW, what happens in FFVI is that, unlike every other FF game, when you die you don't return to the title screen, instead you get sent back to the last place you saved and keep exp and stats but nothing else -- including clock time. So if you save with Terra alone at the first opportunity, level to 99 on Lete River (or whereever else), and kill yourself, you now have a level 99 Terra at the very beginning of the game with only a few minutes shown on the clock (and since all party members join based  on average level of the current party, everyone else joins at 99).

I'll grant this is a 'bit' different given that in this case you can't segment (since it doesn't go back to the title screen and thus you don't load a file), but it's a similar situation -- one that's been known for years -- but people don't consider it a legit tactic.

BrutalAl

Edit history:

BrutalAl: 2013-05-31 01:57:33 pm

2013-05-31 01:55:56 pm

Quote from Melodia:

The point, however, is that you need to 'set it up'. You can't just play for 6 hours and have it not count toward the speed run. Yes it's true that game overs don't count in segmented runs normally, but segments aren't (usually) influenced by the actions of what went on before (or if they are it's a simple RNG thing)

But as already stated, setting up segments is done in almost every segment already.
The only way to skip given enemies is to set it up, which is why setup-tactics is being used, and using Yuffie to warp is just as simple and technically even mostly the same, the only major difference being the impact it has.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand why one would like to make it a separate category seeing how game breaking it is and how different and not to mention faster the run would be compared to a run that doesn't use the warp. But to trying to pass it as non-legit, or claim that extra time should be added just because, would in fact be the same saying battle manipulation is also non-legit.

Oh, by the way.
The Singel Segment FF1 run hosted here at SDA uses "set up"-tactics in order to manipulate battles for the upcoming actual run attempt.
Now, is that set up time included in the total run time you may ask? Well, the answer is, of course, no. Only the actual successful attempt is counted towards the total time.

Do note that we are talking about Single Segment and/or Segmented categories here.
If we instead were to look at a category such as RTA (real time attack, which I'm not sure is actually hosted here at SDA?) where timing starts when you power on the console and stops only when you beat the game then all the set up time would of course be added to the final time, because everything you do in between the power on up to the end of the game counts, regardless of if you segment it or not.

Quote from Melodia:

I'll grant this is a 'bit' different given that in this case you can't segment (since it doesn't go back to the title screen and thus you don't load a file), but it's a similar situation -- one that's been known for years -- but people don't consider it a legit tactic.

As you said yourself, if you never end the segment then all that leveling up to 99 is obviously part of that segment, regardless of what the game clock says. Which indeed is not at all the same as Yuffie warping or regular battle manipulation.

[quote="Melodia"]The point, however, is that you need to 'set it up'. You can't just play for 6 hours and have it not count toward the speed run. Yes it's true that game overs don't count in segmented runs normally, but segments aren't (usually) influenced by the actions of what went on before (or if they are it's a simple RNG thing)[/quote]
But as already stated, setting up segments is done in almost every segment already.
The only way to skip given enemies is to set it up, which is why setup-tactics is being used, and using Yuffie to warp is just as simple and technically even mostly the same, the only major difference being the impact it has.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand why one would like to make it a separate category seeing how game breaking it is and how different and not to mention faster the run would be compared to a run that doesn't use the warp. But to trying to pass it as non-legit, or claim that extra time should be added just because, would in fact be the same saying battle manipulation is also non-legit.

Oh, by the way.
The [b]Singel Segment[/b] FF1 run hosted here at SDA uses "set up"-tactics in order to manipulate battles for the upcoming actual run attempt.
Now, is that set up time included in the total run time you may ask? Well, the answer is, of course, no. Only the actual successful attempt is counted towards the total time.

Do note that we are talking about Single Segment and/or Segmented categories here.
If we instead were to look at a category such as RTA (real time attack, which I'm not sure is actually hosted here at SDA?) where timing starts when you power on the console and stops only when you beat the game then all the set up time would of course be added to the final time, because everything you do in between the power on up to the end of the game counts, regardless of if you segment it or not.

[quote="Melodia"]I'll grant this is a 'bit' different given that in this case you can't segment (since it doesn't go back to the title screen and thus you don't load a file), but it's a similar situation -- one that's been known for years -- but people don't consider it a legit tactic.[/quote]
As you said yourself, if you never end the segment then all that leveling up to 99 is obviously part of that segment, regardless of what the game clock says. Which indeed is not at all the same as Yuffie warping or regular battle manipulation.

Rakuen

Edit history:

Rakuen: 2013-05-31 10:38:44 pm

Rakuen: 2013-05-31 10:35:02 pm

2013-05-31 10:27:11 pm

Weegee Time

There's an order of magnitude difference between cycling a couple battles before starting an attempt and playing through large tracts of the game for the Yuffie skip. The former is done by your average player as a matter of course. If you didn't know the RNG was rigged you'd never realize the cycling had happened. In similar manner, I'm sure there's other games where leaving the game on for X amount of time will alter the RNG to a more favorable position. It's not as if we're going to police when you start an attempt. However, the latter is quite intentional in nature. It's pretty obvious you shouldn't go from fighting Yuffie to fighting Sephiroth (or whomever) in a single screen transition. They do have similar principles but I could not say in good conscience that they are equal. That's just my view of it, mind.

I think it's an interesting technique and would make for an interesting run. I don't know if it belongs on SDA. I do agree that it should be a different category if it were allowed. I'd like to see an admin or two weigh in on the technique.

Quote:

If we instead were to look at a category such as RTA (real time attack, which I'm not sure is actually hosted here at SDA?)

Resets are now allowed for all single-segment runs and the time for the reset is probably included in your total time. It can create a separate category if it causes severe differences in the run. I think that's close to RTA but we still start and stop the timers differently. Smiley

Clarification: We don't call it RTA because we want to make it clear that runs with resets do not neccessarily compete with runs without resets. See the original post.

There's an order of magnitude difference between cycling a couple battles before starting an attempt and playing through large tracts of the game for the Yuffie skip.  The former is done by your average player as a matter of course.  If you didn't know the RNG was rigged you'd never realize the cycling had happened.  In similar manner, I'm sure there's other games where leaving the game on for X amount of time will alter the RNG to a more favorable position.  It's not as if we're going to police when you start an attempt.  However, the latter is quite intentional in nature.  It's pretty obvious you shouldn't go from fighting Yuffie to fighting Sephiroth (or whomever) in a single screen transition.  They do have similar principles but I could not say in good conscience that they are [i]equal[/i].  That's just my view of it, mind.

I think it's an interesting technique and would make for an interesting run.  I don't know if it belongs on SDA.  I do agree that it should be a different category if it were allowed.  I'd like to see an admin or two weigh in on the technique.

[quote]If we instead were to look at a category such as RTA (real time attack, which I'm not sure is actually hosted here at SDA?)[/quote]
Resets are now allowed [url=https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/single_segment_with_resets_now_accepted_globally.html]for all single-segment runs[/url] and the time for the reset is [i]probably[/i] included in your total time.  It can create a separate category if it causes severe differences in the run.  I think that's close to RTA but we still start and stop the timers differently. :)

Clarification: We don't call it RTA because we want to make it clear that runs with resets do not neccessarily compete with runs without resets.  See the [url=https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/single_segment_with_resets_now_accepted.html]original post[/url].

Essentia

2013-05-31 11:30:44 pm

Everything's better with Magitek

Quote from Melodia:

FWIW, what happens in FFVI is that, unlike every other FF game, when you die you don't return to the title screen, instead you get sent back to the last place you saved and keep exp and stats but nothing else -- including clock time. So if you save with Terra alone at the first opportunity, level to 99 on Lete River (or whereever else), and kill yourself, you now have a level 99 Terra at the very beginning of the game with only a few minutes shown on the clock (and since all party members join based on average level of the current party, everyone else joins at 99).

I just wanted to point out that this isn't quite correct. When you die in FFVI and go back to your previous save, the in-game clock doesn't get reset. So if you take the time to level everyone up to 99, all that time will still be counted on the timer.

puwexil

2013-05-31 11:41:06 pm

Professional Second Banana

I agree that a run that uses the Yuffie warp glitch to skip significant portions of the game (assuming it meets all normal requirements for submission to SDA) should fall under the "with major skips" category, like FF4 runs that use the 64-layer glitch to similar effect.

This could also raise the same question about the Disc 2 Midgar Skip, though I'm of the opinion that it doesn't fundamentally change the run/route enough to justify a separate category (plus we're only talking about skipping 10 minutes in an 8+ hour run compared to skipping 5 hours).

Neohart

Edit history:

Neohart: 2013-05-31 11:56:35 pm

2013-05-31 11:54:34 pm

Final Fantasy VII Fanatic

Quote from puwexil:

I agree that a run that uses the Yuffie warp glitch to skip significant portions of the game (assuming it meets all normal requirements for submission to SDA) should fall under the "with major skips" category, like FF4 runs that use the 64-layer glitch to similar effect.

This could also raise the same question about the Disc 2 Midgar Skip, though I'm of the opinion that it doesn't fundamentally change the run/route enough to justify a separate category (plus we're only talking about skipping 10 minutes in an 8+ hour run compared to skipping 5 hours).

I Agree with everything here. With the Yuffie warp we are talking about skipping ALL of disc 2 possibly (depends when you warp, I'd assume as soon as you can, or somewhere on disc 1) verses a Midgar skip only saving 10 minutes in the run.

When I was reading the replies to my post about it I was thinking the exact same thing done with ff4 to skip a big portion of the game. I would consider this to be among that as well.

And yes, a second file is not "Needed" to warp with Yuffie but in order to do it with one whole file you'd still need the game over, so all the progress you made would be for nothing once you die unless you saved of course. I'm all for this glitch being it's own category even tho I dislike the idea of skipping over most of the game. When I originally came across this glitch I honestly did not think much of it since it did not help with the Single Segment speed run.

And for talking about warping to Safer Sephiroth and killing him, after he dies and the game loads you back on the cliffs before the final decent, the game triggers the cutscene of you doing the final decent since you never did it. Thus you have to go down and fight Jenova ect..

[quote="puwexil"]I agree that a run that uses the Yuffie warp glitch to skip significant portions of the game (assuming it meets all normal requirements for submission to SDA) should fall under the "with major skips" category, like FF4 runs that use the 64-layer glitch to similar effect.

This could also raise the same question about the Disc 2 Midgar Skip, though I'm of the opinion that it doesn't fundamentally change the run/route enough to justify a separate category (plus we're only talking about skipping 10 minutes in an 8+ hour run compared to skipping 5 hours).[/quote]
I Agree with everything here. With the Yuffie warp we are talking about skipping ALL of disc 2 possibly (depends when you warp, I'd assume as soon as you can, or somewhere on disc 1) verses a Midgar skip only saving 10 minutes in the run.

When I was reading the replies to my post about it I was thinking the exact same thing done with ff4 to skip a big portion of the game. I would consider this to be among that as well.

And yes, a second file is not "Needed" to warp with Yuffie but in order to do it with one whole file you'd still need the game over, so all the progress you made would be for nothing once you die unless you saved of course. I'm all for this glitch being it's own category even tho I dislike the idea of skipping over most of the game. When I originally came across this glitch I honestly did not think much of it since it did not  help with the Single Segment speed run.

And for talking about warping to Safer Sephiroth and killing him, after he dies and the game loads you back on the cliffs before the final decent, the game triggers the cutscene of you doing the final decent since you never did it. Thus you have to go down and fight Jenova ect..