Final Fantasy III (DS)

2014-12-25 01:01:35 am

You can use the nautilus "dive" glitch to get to the Ancients' Maze faster than using the invincible. I actually did that on my first playthrough, but the game froze since I still had Unei in my party after I beat Xande so... I think you HAVE to get rid of Unei by going to the Ancient Ruins.

I pick up the leather shield, but skip most other things in the beginning, as Desch mentioned / trading the potion for a phoenix down. I force Land Turtle to drop an arctic wind and just dupe that (sell off extra antarctic winds) and buy the gold needles instead of duping the needles in battle because that forces you to go into the menu and let's be honest, this SR is basically random battles and menu management.

My first run was not technically a SR in the sense that I was clocking myself, but if you fight every battle from start to finish you will have enough HP / job levels to survive against COD. I feel like "grinding" in one spot doesn't really help you move the game forward as this game is basically about just managing enough HP to survive random battles long enough to get the item damage out. I would say that if a viking works for a LLG, it should fare just as well in a normal SR.

Are you guys clocking total playtime, or just the in-game playtime, because you can use RNG to help against Goldor (and other bosses). Right after Amur is the point where you can get a chocobo's wrath and I have manipulated the RNG to guarantee wrath drops. I know that this will vary from person to person as their game's cartridge has slightly different RNG from mine. If you are clocking total playtime I guess this method doesn't really work as I basically brute forced the method on my cartridge and just tested a bunch of inputs, but it could work to make your time faster.

As far as battling COD, I just used a SCH for that. I find that being consistent from start to finish your SCH will do as much damage if not more than a level 1 NIN against COD, and removes the need to duplicate items for gil.

As far as Garuda goes, my last attempt RNG farmed a raven's yawn and beat that boss that way (and used that on Ahriman at the end). Chocobo's wrath does a bit less damage, I believe. In that LLG YT video posted, the guy says you will never get Lightning two times in a row, so you basically need two people alive for a wrath or yawn to kill Garuda. Boss scripts are actually not set like normal RNG is (I went through Cave Of Tides and Kraken used a different move each time).

The game is getting kind of tedious for me, and I have been trying to speedrun this on a cartridge so I don't have save states to go off of other than a hard save, which is how I set my base RNG (I've been trying to be more rigorous about keeping everyone alive to keep their levels the same so that RNG is set).

I go to the Sunken Cave to pick up the cognitome since I use a SCH all the way through the game, and pick up the stuff needed for VIK (aegis shield there), and it makes the TOT infinitely easier (as well as having earthen drums / chocobo's wrath).

You can use the nautilus "dive" glitch to get to the Ancients' Maze faster than using the invincible. I actually did that on my first playthrough, but the game froze since I still had Unei in my party after I beat Xande so... I think you HAVE to get rid of Unei by going to the Ancient Ruins.

I pick up the leather shield, but skip most other things in the beginning, as Desch mentioned / trading the potion for a phoenix down. I force Land Turtle to drop an arctic wind and just dupe that (sell off extra antarctic winds) and buy the gold needles instead of duping the needles in battle because that forces you to go into the menu and let's be honest, this SR is basically random battles and menu management.

My first run was not technically a SR in the sense that I was clocking myself, but if you fight every battle from start to finish you will have enough HP / job levels to survive against COD. I feel like "grinding" in one spot doesn't really help you move the game forward as this game is basically about just managing enough HP to survive random battles long enough to get the item damage out. I would say that if a viking works for a LLG, it should fare just as well in a normal SR.

Are you guys clocking total playtime, or just the in-game playtime, because you can use RNG to help against Goldor (and other bosses). Right after Amur is the point where you can get a chocobo's wrath and I have manipulated the RNG to guarantee wrath drops. I know that this will vary from person to person as their game's cartridge has slightly different RNG from mine. If you are clocking total playtime I guess this method doesn't really work as I basically brute forced the method on my cartridge and just tested a bunch of inputs, but it could work to make your time faster.

As far as battling COD, I just used a SCH for that. I find that being consistent from start to finish your SCH will do as much damage if not more than a level 1 NIN against COD, and removes the need to duplicate items for gil.

As far as Garuda goes, my last attempt RNG farmed a raven's yawn and beat that boss that way (and used that on Ahriman at the end). Chocobo's wrath does a bit less damage, I believe. In that LLG YT video posted, the guy says you will never get Lightning two times in a row, so you basically need two people alive for a wrath or yawn to kill Garuda. Boss scripts are actually not set like normal RNG is (I went through Cave Of Tides and Kraken used a different move each time).

The game is getting kind of tedious for me, and I have been trying to speedrun this on a cartridge so I don't have save states to go off of other than a hard save, which is how I set my base RNG (I've been trying to be more rigorous about keeping everyone alive to keep their levels the same so that RNG is set).

I go to the Sunken Cave to pick up the cognitome since I use a SCH all the way through the game, and pick up the stuff needed for VIK (aegis shield there), and it makes the TOT infinitely easier (as well as having earthen drums / chocobo's wrath).

Eltherian

2014-12-25 12:05:19 pm

Velocity 2X

Nice info drop! That's a lot of great stuff that will help out.

I knew that the Nautilus submerge clip existed, but I couldn't really think of a way to use it that wouldn't result in the game borking out. If it turns out you just need to get rid of Unei and can then use the glitch to get straight to the Ancient's Maze, then that might save around 30 minutes to an hour on the run just by skipping the Doga + Unei fight and Cave of Shadows.

I was aware that RNG manipulation was possible for FF3DS since it and Golden Sun: Dark Dawn use a similar engine, but I did not know how to do it properly on FF3DS. Getting the early Chocobo's Wrath will make Goldor and Garuda trivial fights (and Raven's Yawn if you RNG manip that into dropping). All of what you posted sounds pretty good. A note on the grinding part - I am honestly not sure that needs to be included either. I listed it there more as a method of how to do it as I felt that was the best way to do it, but I don't know if it will have to be done in the first place.

In terms of the CoD fight, we've found that having a Ninja is no longer necessary since SCH just nukes her out of existence anyways. I've been testing some Black Belt strats to see how they fare so far, but I want to test them on the actually game cart to see how they pan out in the game.

If possible, could you try to include a more step-by-step process of how to manipulate the RNG for Raven's Yawn and Chocobo's Wrath drops? That'll take a huge amount of risk out of the run from Goldor and Garuda, as those are a few of the bottlenecks so far.

I can link drop all of my save states / files for emulator if you'd like, but that just means you have to go out and find the ROM to play the game. They use the emulator desmume, as that is the one I have found to work most consistently with the game so far. These are files for pretty much every important location in the game, and have been really useful for testing stuff out. Used in conjunction with a save editor, it makes things pretty easy. Here is the link to download the savefiles / save states for FF3DS - https://www.dropbox.com/s/jf77kqndw1ep3wo/FF3DS%20Save%20Files.rar?dl=0 .

Nice info drop! That's a lot of great stuff that will help out.

I knew that the Nautilus submerge clip existed, but I couldn't really think of a way to use it that wouldn't result in the game borking out. If it turns out you just need to get rid of Unei and can then use the glitch to get straight to the Ancient's Maze, then that might save around 30 minutes to an hour on the run just by skipping the Doga + Unei fight and Cave of Shadows.

I was aware that RNG manipulation was possible for FF3DS since it and Golden Sun: Dark Dawn use a similar engine, but I did not know how to do it properly on FF3DS. Getting the early Chocobo's Wrath will make Goldor and Garuda trivial fights (and Raven's Yawn if you RNG manip that into dropping). All of what you posted sounds pretty good. A note on the grinding part - I am honestly not sure that needs to be included either. I listed it there more as a method of how to do it as I felt that was the best way to do it, but I don't know if it will have to be done in the first place.

In terms of the CoD fight, we've found that having a Ninja is no longer necessary since SCH just nukes her out of existence anyways. I've been testing some Black Belt strats to see how they fare so far, but I want to test them on the actually game cart to see how they pan out in the game.

If possible, could you try to include a more step-by-step process of how to manipulate the RNG for Raven's Yawn and Chocobo's Wrath drops? That'll take a huge amount of risk out of the run from Goldor and Garuda, as those are a few of the bottlenecks so far.

I can link drop all of my save states / files for emulator if you'd like, but that just means you have to go out and find the ROM to play the game. They use the emulator desmume, as that is the one I have found to work most consistently with the game so far. These are files for pretty much every important location in the game, and have been really useful for testing stuff out. Used in conjunction with a save editor, it makes things pretty easy. Here is the link to download the savefiles / save states for FF3DS - https://www.dropbox.com/s/jf77kqndw1ep3wo/FF3DS%20Save%20Files.rar?dl=0 .

2014-12-25 12:58:31 pm

Speedrunning Final Fantasy III DS

First things first, where EXACTLY do you need do dive to get into the Ancient Maze? I have spent hours trying to look for something like that, so I'm really surprised to see someone who did it on their first playthrough. If all this works, then tell I need to know if you can just skip your way inot the Crystal Tower, without Doga and Unei's keys.

That aside, how the do you RNG manipulate this game? Like how do you, say, "force" the first boss to drop Arctic Wind? Or getting Chocobo's Wrath/Raven's Yawn and other stuff? Can you manipulate a Viking's Provoke to 100%? Please elaborate on this stuff.

Also, I am persoanally planning on doing this single segmented, so no RTA or anything like that. So for me, I'll start the clock when I select "New Game" and stops it at the first flash after beating the final boss.

Other notes comings here: I don't think grinding will be necessary. The ToT should be taken after the Sunken Cave. Knights should be used often for HP growth reasons. I think you read an "old" guide. All of the enemies can only use 1 non-standard attack per turn (only 1 magic/other ability per turn). It seems like you understand where you can save time (menu and random battles).

First things first, where EXACTLY do you need do dive to get into the Ancient Maze? I have spent hours trying to look for something like that, so I'm really surprised to see someone who did it on their first playthrough. If all this works, then tell I need to know if you can just skip your way inot the Crystal Tower, without Doga and Unei's keys.

That aside, how the do you RNG manipulate this game? Like how do you, say, "force" the first boss to drop Arctic Wind? Or getting Chocobo's Wrath/Raven's Yawn and other stuff? Can you manipulate a Viking's Provoke to 100%? Please elaborate on this stuff.

Also, I am persoanally planning on doing this single segmented, so no RTA or anything like that. So for me, I'll start the clock when I select "New Game" and stops it at the first flash after beating the final boss.

Other notes comings here: I don't think grinding will be necessary. The ToT should be taken after the Sunken Cave. Knights should be used often for HP growth reasons. I think you read an "old" guide. All of the enemies can only use 1 non-standard attack per turn (only 1 magic/other ability per turn). It seems like you understand where you can save time (menu and random battles).

Edit history:

FF3_DS: 2014-12-25 07:56:41 pm

FF3_DS: 2014-12-25 07:56:38 pm

2014-12-25 07:47:41 pm

Not my video, but I can verify that the dive works (http://www.benzedrine.cx/ff3). I just use this glitch to not waste the time making the statues disappear and then going back into the Invincible (it's super slow to me, anyway). The fight in Doga's Grotto with Doga and Unei gives you the Syrcus Key required to advance past the first level of the Crystal Tower, so you can't skip that stage... Unless it's possible to glitch past that point, too (or trick the game into thinking you have that item and trigger the cutscene). I would estimate using the glitch saves you about 1 minute to 1.5 minutes (the Invincible will most likely get you into a battle with enemies of a similar level while underwater you should be higher and guarantee a run away on the first attempt).

I was also trying to find a way to use the glitch to get to the Cave Of Shadows faster, but I haven't found a point where the glitch works at any close points of entry.

Since I have the cartridge I have no way of actually telling, but I believe the game works on a RNG cycle. To manipulate the RNG in my favor I do a hard save and exit the game (3DS), then simply restart it. The game's RNG will then base itself off of your character's level (NOT JOB LEVEL) and respective inputs / actions in or out of battle. Opening a menu can force the RNG cycle forward, zoning sometimes works, killing monsters in a specific order changes it, and the number of rounds it takes to finish a battle, et cetera. Since you are working with a ROM, you have the capability to look specifically at the game's source code / memory as it changes as you input actions to see what actually changes the RNG so that should probably help you.

The link below has some articles which helped me understand more about the game even though I can't access the game code / memory.

http://tasvideos.org/ArticleIndex.html

As far as starting from the most simple of cases (the beginning of the game), I always noticed that my second attack would always miss, no matter what I did. Upon viewing other people's runs from the start of the game, their second attack WOULD connect, leading me to believe that my each cartridge probably has a different psuedo-RNG, so your speedrun would have to be either based off the same exact ROM download if you were to collaborate with someone else, or specific to your cartridge (I think).

Here's the full listing of what I would note at the beginning (I have one empty save in the first slot, not sure if it influenced my RNG). In the very first battle, I would need to attack > guard x2 > attack x2. Go up, get the leather shield, then the potion. After getting the potion, open the menu, equip the shield, formation to back row, configuration to set to run (this doesn't really matter, just for convenience). Go to click the rock.

At this point if I messed up, a random battle would occur a few steps after this point. I'm positive there is some counter for your steps when you full-run, because if you tap the move button repeatedly, but extremely quickly so Luneth takes a half-step then stops, you don't get into any random battles. I actually did this once by using the dive glitch to Ancients' Maze and picking up every chest without a random battle (it did take 40 minutes or so, though). If the mess-up battle happens, I do what I usually do and run away.

However, if it went according to plan, I would not encounter a random battle till the corner in the top NW of the map to the zone with Land Turtle. I open a menu once at the corner, walk diagonally till I'm aligned with the steps to the zone, open the menu again (to circumvent the battle there). Note that if I got the messed up random battle after the rock, I would get an unavoidable battle in the path going west after retrieving the wind. If there is a way to completely avoid random battles, the way I just used by opening the menu works sometimes, but not all the time (and this would be extremely tedious for me as I would need to route and be VERY specific about how many steps I took in all zones).

If I didn't have gotten int the unavoidable battle, these are the actions I would do (order matters) = p h2 w36 h2 w39 h1 p h2 g h1 a4 h2 w41 = Arctic Wind. p is potion, h is when I take damage, w is antarctic wind, g is guard. If I did mess up, these are the actions I would take = w36 h2 w39 h2 g c1 g h1 r h4 w43 = Arctic Wind. r = run away.

The same kind of methodology I applied to farming chocobo's wrath / raven's yawn / protect rings, but at the point where you make the hard save you need to keep in mind what level your characters are (so you need to be diligent about keeping everyone's EXP the same).

I would hard save right outside of Amur, and basically test all combinations until I got into a battle that did drop with that specific input / hard save outside of Duster or Replito and attempt / hard save right outside of Crystal Tower and enter Ancients' Maze and do inputs till I got KB to drop the rings.

The TASvideo link I listed had something about LUA scripting and finding the fastest way possible but I'm not exactly savvy with that kind of stuff, but I think it would probably help find the fastest way to obtain drops if we knew how the game worked.

My notes are based off of the first guide Eltherian posted so I'm just going off of that. I stopped worrying about grinding for HP, fighting every battle from Crystal Tower to the World Of Darkness got me to level 48 with my SCH being the lowest at 1.9k HP approximately, (although the random battles are annoying, it would be easier to just grind the EXP if I could guarantee a bluck encounter after a hard save and grind EXP that way).

EDIT: I do not know how to guarantee the viking provoke to work 100% of the time, but the game reads and adjusts RNG according to your inputs, so if you could view the code, you could actually make a battle work to your advantage by manipulating your inputs during battle. But as far as me knowing how to guarantee that, it's out of my scope as I only have a cartridge to work with.

Not my video, but I can verify that the dive works (http://www.benzedrine.cx/ff3). I just use this glitch to not waste the time making the statues disappear and then going back into the Invincible (it's super slow to me, anyway). The fight in Doga's Grotto with Doga and Unei gives you the Syrcus Key required to advance past the first level of the Crystal Tower, so you can't skip that stage... Unless it's possible to glitch past that point, too (or trick the game into thinking you have that item and trigger the cutscene). I would estimate using the glitch saves you about 1 minute to 1.5 minutes (the Invincible will most likely get you into a battle with enemies of a similar level while underwater you should be higher and guarantee a run away on the first attempt).

I was also trying to find a way to use the glitch to get to the Cave Of Shadows faster, but I haven't found a point where the glitch works at any close points of entry.

Since I have the cartridge I have no way of actually telling, but I believe the game works on a RNG cycle. To manipulate the RNG in my favor I do a hard save and exit the game (3DS), then simply restart it. The game's RNG will then base itself off of your character's level (NOT JOB LEVEL) and respective inputs / actions in or out of battle. Opening a menu can force the RNG cycle forward, zoning sometimes works, killing monsters in a specific order changes it, and the number of rounds it takes to finish a battle, et cetera. Since you are working with a ROM, you have the capability to look specifically at the game's source code / memory as it changes as you input actions to see what actually changes the RNG so that should probably help you.

The link below has some articles which helped me understand more about the game even though I can't access the game code / memory.

http://tasvideos.org/ArticleIndex.html

As far as starting from the most simple of cases (the beginning of the game), I always noticed that my second attack would always miss, no matter what I did. Upon viewing other people's runs from the start of the game, their second attack WOULD connect, leading me to believe that my each cartridge probably has a different psuedo-RNG, so your speedrun would have to be either based off the same exact ROM download if you were to collaborate with someone else, or specific to your cartridge (I think).

Here's the full listing of what I would note at the beginning (I have one empty save in the first slot, not sure if it influenced my RNG). In the very first battle, I would need to attack > guard x2 > attack x2. Go up, get the leather shield, then the potion. After getting the potion, open the menu, equip the shield, formation to back row, configuration to set to run (this doesn't really matter, just for convenience). Go to click the rock.

At this point if I messed up, a random battle would occur a few steps after this point. I'm positive there is some counter for your steps when you full-run, because if you tap the move button repeatedly, but extremely quickly so Luneth takes a half-step then stops, you don't get into any random battles. I actually did this once by using the dive glitch to Ancients' Maze and picking up every chest without a random battle (it did take 40 minutes or so, though). If the mess-up battle happens, I do what I usually do and run away.

However, if it went according to plan, I would not encounter a random battle till the corner in the top NW of the map to the zone with Land Turtle. I open a menu once at the corner, walk diagonally till I'm aligned with the steps to the zone, open the menu again (to circumvent the battle there). Note that if I got the messed up random battle after the rock, I would get an unavoidable battle in the path going west after retrieving the wind. If there is a way to completely avoid random battles, the way I just used by opening the menu works sometimes, but not all the time (and this would be extremely tedious for me as I would need to route and be VERY specific about how many steps I took in all zones).

If I didn't have gotten int the unavoidable battle, these are the actions I would do (order matters) = p h2 w36 h2 w39 h1 p h2 g h1 a4 h2 w41 = Arctic Wind. p is potion, h is when I take damage, w is antarctic wind, g is guard. If I did mess up, these are the actions I would take = w36 h2 w39 h2 g c1 g h1 r h4 w43 = Arctic Wind. r = run away.

The same kind of methodology I applied to farming chocobo's wrath / raven's yawn / protect rings, but at the point where you make the hard save you need to keep in mind what level your characters are (so you need to be diligent about keeping everyone's EXP the same).

I would hard save right outside of Amur, and basically test all combinations until I got into a battle that did drop with that specific input / hard save outside of Duster or Replito and attempt / hard save right outside of Crystal Tower and enter Ancients' Maze and do inputs till I got KB to drop the rings.

The TASvideo link I listed had something about LUA scripting and finding the fastest way possible but I'm not exactly savvy with that kind of stuff, but I think it would probably help find the fastest way to obtain drops if we knew how the game worked.

My notes are based off of the first guide Eltherian posted so I'm just going off of that. I stopped worrying about grinding for HP, fighting every battle from Crystal Tower to the World Of Darkness got me to level 48 with my SCH being the lowest at 1.9k HP approximately, (although the random battles are annoying, it would be easier to just grind the EXP if I could guarantee a bluck encounter after a hard save and grind EXP that way).

EDIT: I do not know how to guarantee the viking provoke to work 100% of the time, but the game reads and adjusts RNG according to your inputs, so if you could view the code, you could actually make a battle work to your advantage by manipulating your inputs during battle. But as far as me knowing how to guarantee that, it's out of my scope as I only have a cartridge to work with.

FF3 DS Speedrun Route rev3.0 (1).docx

2014-12-26 05:28:04 am

Speedrunning Final Fantasy III DS

I've also wondered if each cartridge has its own "pseudo-RNG", but I am still not sure about it. In your case where your 2nd attack misses (seemingly no matter what you do) was a problem I also used to have. However, I found out that if you start by hitting the Goblin to the left, you won't miss 2nd hit. I guess this is some sort of RNG manipulation that I'm aware of, but it only really works like once in the game.

I'm starting to understand some of the ways this game works, and how to RNG manipulate it further, but it will be troublesome. There is so many different levels and party set-ups you can have at Amur, which makes things ridiculously hard to find a way to always get a wanted drop from a place every time. You could of course steadily try to get your party at a specific level at a specific time, but it can get very difficult, and even getting a drop at all is hard, finding the one way to get it when we want it, will be even harder.

About the glitch. I don't think we can trick the game into triggering the cutscene which lets us pass further into the Crystal Tower. That means that there's not really anything we can skip. However, you can get your Nautilus "inside" the Ancient Maze and land it at a very perfect spot, which enable you to do the Crystal fight, leave the Maze, enter your ship (to get out of bounds) and just fly up to the Crystal Tower, skipping the entire Ancient's Maze. That is a good time save, although we miss out on Crystal Armour for the Knight, but we can get it later if necessary iirc.

Lastly I'd like to point out that I will also only use the cartridge to use and test stuff with. You on the other hand, should look at the most recent version of the guide (I'll post it here) as that one is much more optimised than the old one. But grinding should not be necessary at any point in the game, imo. Maybe in the World of Darkness right before the final boss, but we'll see. You should make a video carefully explaining what you wrote earlier up, as it is a little complicated reading just text alone.

I've also wondered if each cartridge has its own "pseudo-RNG", but I am still not sure about it. In your case where your 2nd attack misses (seemingly no matter what you do) was a problem I also used to have. However, I found out that if you start by hitting the Goblin to the left, you won't miss 2nd hit. I guess this is some sort of RNG manipulation that I'm aware of, but it only really works like once in the game.

I'm starting to understand some of the ways this game works, and how to RNG manipulate it further, but it will be troublesome. There is so many different levels and party set-ups you can have at Amur, which makes things ridiculously hard to find a way to always get a wanted drop from a place every time. You could of course steadily try to get your party at a specific level at a specific time, but it can get very difficult, and even getting a drop at all is hard, finding the one way to get it when we want it, will be even harder.

About the glitch. I don't think we can trick the game into triggering the cutscene which lets us pass further into the Crystal Tower. That means that there's not really anything we can skip. However, you can get your Nautilus "inside" the Ancient Maze and land it at a very perfect spot, which enable you to do the Crystal fight, leave the Maze, enter your ship (to get out of bounds) and just fly up to the Crystal Tower, skipping the entire Ancient's Maze. That is a good time save, although we miss out on Crystal Armour for the Knight, but we can get it later if necessary iirc.

Lastly I'd like to point out that I will also only use the cartridge to use and test stuff with. You on the other hand, should look at the most recent version of the guide (I'll post it here) as that one is much more optimised than the old one. But grinding should not be necessary at any point in the game, imo. Maybe in the World of Darkness right before the final boss, but we'll see. You should make a video carefully explaining what you wrote earlier up, as it is a little complicated reading just text alone.

Attachment:

Chuckolator

Edit history:

Chuckolator: 2015-01-03 02:49:49 am

Chuckolator: 2015-01-03 02:48:50 am

Chuckolator: 2015-01-03 02:43:59 am

2015-01-03 02:43:48 am

I played this casually a few months ago where I tried to beat the game as low a level as possible, and I made "step counts" in which I would run until I got an encounter and try to flee. If I got damaged before I successfully fled, then I would reset, replay to that part, and open the menu right before I hit the encounter, which 90% of the time totally skipped it. Don't ask me how it works (I think doing things in the menu would also return different results) but as said above it had to do with seemingly every identical things you do, i.e. if I fled a battle in my step count with thief's flee instead of run away then it would be totally different. In addition, as you guys probably already know, the battles would also be identical, right down to the damage. This doesn't appear to be anything new (I should have posted this earlier, maybe? :P) but I thought I'd just add my 2¢ that this game has some serious Golden Sun-tier RNG manipulation potential, and I would love to see someone hammer out an insane route for it. Good luck!

2015-01-03 06:34:34 pm

Speedrunning Final Fantasy III DS

yeah, a super consistent RNG strat would be so awesome, but just imagine all the pain putting it together. *sigh* I am thinking about ways to do this, but I am not ready to willingly put myself into such torture yet. I think we should all just try our own theories at this point, and eventually put it all together somehow. The things we would need to find out would be all the ways you manipulate the RNG (change the outcome of a certain area, like a random battle), spend enough time to always force the first boss to drop the Arctic Wind, preferably without getting into any battles at that point, getting other sick drops, like Bomb Arm, Chocobo's Wrath, Raven's Yawn and more, not to mention some good enemy patterns along the way. This will take A LOT of time, hope someone is prepared for this.

Edit history:

WasabiKnight: 2015-01-19 09:25:34 pm

2015-01-19 08:55:41 pm

Hey guys!

Let me go on ahead and apologize for the huge, not very helpful, post of mine...
I want to join in on the fun. Last week I decided to start speedrunning for the first time in my life, I never did it before and I think it would be a good experience for me to put my mind off things and enjoy myself on a real challenge for a change. I decided to speedrun this game for two main reasons (I really like the game and I think it's feasible even for complete beginners like me) but I got really disappointed when I noticed there were no records for it on the SDA, though I got my hopes up back again when I found this thread!
Like I mentioned before I got no experience when it comes to speedrunning, but you guys got a really nice documentation going on so that makes it super easy for me. If you guys don't mind me joining in, it would make me super happy if I could use your routing plans and start testing things out so we can progress some more. It might take a while for me to get back at you with results (since the first... oh I don't know, 10, 20 runs?... will be complete garbage and it will be me getting used to speedrunning the game and such) but I really really want to help and contribute on this!

What I decided to do was, starting on February (exams are coming up soon), I will speedrun this route at least once a week (and/or whenever I find pockets of time), and at the same time I will stream each speedrun. I believe this can be useful both to me and to this routing as if any of you find yourselves with time you can see what's going on, and even if you don't at the end of each of my speedrun I will post the recorded run (in video format) and talk about my impressions on the route. I should mention that I set up splits with LiveSplits to use with the stream, based on your routing, so I can track my time for different crucial points on the run. Of course, I will only do this for valid speedruns, I won't post anything if I don't have any relevant speedrun to contribute. I also thought about opening a thread on Casual Speedrunning when the time comes as well, since, for the most part, I will be casually speedrunning until I get the hang of it.

I have been studying different parts of the game, and starting today, I will be thoroughly studying your progress, your routes and even the game mechanics so I can keep stupid acts to a minimum (let's hope). I should mention that I own the PC game version and I beat the game twice, once by myself and another one using a walkthrough so I managed to perform a 100% run of the game. One other thing I will mention is, since the item duplication glitch isn't possible in the PC version I will resort to using an emulator for these speedruns, I managed to use an emulator that runs at a consistent 60 fps even when I'm streaming, so I hope this is ok and valid for speedrunning purposes (let me know if not).

If you guys don't mind me joining in on the fun and help you out, I will need to know a few things:
1 - When should I start the timers? (Desch mentioned at the click of New Game);
2 - When should I hit the timers for the next split? (this is mainly towards reaching areas, should I time it when I enter the area or when the area finishes to load?)
3 - Regarding bosses should I use the consensus that was determined earlier and hit the timer when the first flash happens?

One last thing, I have a suggestion to make, is there nothing on the old NES run for FF3 that can be translated to this run? Perhaps some sort of pathing/item pickups if we ignore the fact they use glitches that don't exist in the DS version most of the time...

Once again I am sorry for the long post, it's my first time trying to speedrun or do anything of the sort and I am just trying to help and contribute.
Have a nice day guys.

Hey guys!

Let me go on ahead and apologize for the huge, not very helpful, post of mine...
I want to join in on the fun. Last week I decided to start speedrunning for the first time in my life, I never did it before and I think it would be a good experience for me to put my mind off things and enjoy myself on a real challenge for a change. I decided to speedrun this game for two main reasons (I really like the game and I think it's feasible even for complete beginners like me) but I got really disappointed when I noticed there were no records for it on the SDA, though I got my hopes up back again when I found this thread!
Like I mentioned before I got no experience when it comes to speedrunning, but you guys got a really nice documentation going on so that makes it super easy for me. If you guys don't mind me joining in, it would make me super happy if I could use your routing plans and start testing things out so we can progress some more. It might take a while for me to get back at you with results (since the first... oh I don't know, 10, 20 runs?... will be complete garbage and it will be me getting used to speedrunning the game and such) but I really really want to help and contribute on this!

What I decided to do was, starting on February (exams are coming up soon), I will speedrun this route at least once a week (and/or whenever I find pockets of time), and at the same time I will stream each speedrun. I believe this can be useful both to me and to this routing as if any of you find yourselves with time you can see what's going on, and even if you don't at the end of each of my speedrun I will post the recorded run (in video format) and talk about my impressions on the route. I should mention that I set up splits with LiveSplits to use with the stream, based on your routing, so I can track my time for different crucial points on the run. Of course, I will only do this for valid speedruns, I won't post anything if I don't have any relevant speedrun to contribute. I also thought about opening a thread on Casual Speedrunning when the time comes as well, since, for the most part, I will be casually speedrunning until I get the hang of it.

I have been studying different parts of the game, and starting today, I will be thoroughly studying your progress, your routes and even the game mechanics so I can keep stupid acts to a minimum (let's hope). I should mention that I own the PC game version and I beat the game twice, once by myself and another one using a walkthrough so I managed to perform a 100% run of the game. One other thing I will mention is, since the item duplication glitch isn't possible in the PC version I will resort to using an emulator for these speedruns, I managed to use an emulator that runs at a consistent 60 fps even when I'm streaming, so I hope this is ok and valid for speedrunning purposes (let me know if not).

If you guys don't mind me joining in on the fun and help you out, I will need to know a few things:
1 - When should I start the timers? (Desch mentioned at the click of New Game);
2 - When should I hit the timers for the next split? (this is mainly towards reaching areas, should I time it when I enter the area or when the area finishes to load?)
3 - Regarding bosses should I use the consensus that was determined earlier and hit the timer when the first flash happens?

One last thing, I have a suggestion to make, is there nothing on the old NES run for FF3 that can be translated to this run? Perhaps some sort of pathing/item pickups if we ignore the fact they use glitches that don't exist in the DS version most of the time...

Once again I am sorry for the long post, it's my first time trying to speedrun or do anything of the sort and I am just trying to help and contribute.
Have a nice day guys.

Edit history:

FF3_DS: 2015-01-20 01:29:53 am

FF3_DS: 2015-01-20 01:04:59 am

FF3_DS: 2015-01-20 01:02:38 am

2015-01-20 12:56:39 am

You should be at 4:38 or less right before entering Crystal Tower (not counting Eureka). The other SDA topic on this game has his game at 4:27, so that is probably attainable (he says he could shave off 15 to 30 minutes, or something like that, too). CT and WOD take a long time, probably a maximum of 2 hours and 30 to 40 minutes. Total run time not including game overs should be less than 7:50 (some Reddit post if you use Google). If you can run the game under 6 hours (or even 7) I would be impressed considering every route will most likely FIGHT all the battles they come across past the halfway mark. And if you try to single-segment this game without any use of hard saves (quick save is okay in my book if you use it for single-segmenting), I'd be even more impressed if you made it to the end without getting a wipeout considering a back attack will probably mean the run is over. I had trouble even splitting up this game with back attacks.

I don't know much about the emulation scene, but I don't know if it runs the game at normal speed. Timer starts when you hit new game yes, and when the final killshot is on COD. It should not matter about timing your split as long as you are consistent at starting the next one without any overlap or skips. As far as using the NES runs for inspiration, the game is coded too differently from the DS, and unless you are willing to attempt crazy things like duping past 99 (I did try that once and I didn't notice anything different), not much is going to change from the route that we have set. The differences in routes is mainly what job choices we have and what items we pick up, and even then I can't see the time differing wildly over say like 20 minutes. I've watched the NES speedruns and the one that is 7 minutes glitches code to call the end credits to play, and another one that is around 2:30 and that just glitches 1 character's level to 99 or something and basically has him solo the game and avoids every random battle (with broken stats).

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/final_fantasy_3_ds.html
http://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/254lyh/how_do_i_route_a_game/
http://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/25pbqo/ff3_ds_wr/

I should mention that every boss battle in this game is scripted based on your inputs but for some reason Kraken always used different moves when I ran him multiple times.

You should be at 4:38 or less right before entering Crystal Tower (not counting Eureka). The other SDA topic on this game has his game at 4:27, so that is probably attainable (he says he could shave off 15 to 30 minutes, or something like that, too). CT and WOD take a long time, probably a maximum of 2 hours and 30 to 40 minutes. Total run time not including game overs should be less than 7:50 (some Reddit post if you use Google). If you can run the game under 6 hours (or even 7) I would be impressed considering every route will most likely FIGHT all the battles they come across past the halfway mark. And if you try to single-segment this game without any use of hard saves (quick save is okay in my book if you use it for single-segmenting), I'd be even more impressed if you made it to the end without getting a wipeout considering a back attack will probably mean the run is over. I had trouble even splitting up this game with back attacks.

I don't know much about the emulation scene, but I don't know if it runs the game at normal speed. Timer starts when you hit new game yes, and when the final killshot is on COD. It should not matter about timing your split as long as you are consistent at starting the next one without any overlap or skips. As far as using the NES runs for inspiration, the game is coded too differently from the DS, and unless you are willing to attempt crazy things like duping past 99 (I did try that once and I didn't notice anything different), not much is going to change from the route that we have set. The differences in routes is mainly what job choices we have and what items we pick up, and even then I can't see the time differing wildly over say like 20 minutes. I've watched the NES speedruns and the one that is 7 minutes glitches code to call the end credits to play, and another one that is around 2:30 and that just glitches 1 character's level to 99 or something and basically has him solo the game and avoids every random battle (with broken stats).

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/final_fantasy_3_ds.html
http://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/254lyh/how_do_i_route_a_game/
http://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/25pbqo/ff3_ds_wr/

I should mention that every boss battle in this game is scripted based on your inputs but for some reason Kraken always used different moves when I ran him multiple times.

2015-01-20 10:53:06 am

Thank you so much for the information! I will take a while before I can produce any good results but as soon as I am able to hit the 8 hour mark I will start posting my results here, if I find anything relevant to help the route out (like testing a different option and finding that it's faster) I will also share it around.
I will do as you informed and time the splits appropriately. I will try out different ways to speedrun the game, starting off by doing a single segment though if I keep getting wiped out by back attacks (as you mentioned) I will switch to separate segments and test what I can do best.
I will ask around for how to deal with the emulators maybe someone can help me with this issue, though for the sake of improving routing I don't think this should be a problem. Emulators have issues with loading screens faster, resulting in minor seconds of difference from what I know.

I got something I want to share, like I mentioned I made splits on Livesplits based on the routing here. If anyone uses that program and wants to make use of the splits I'll attach it here.

Just a couple of notes:
1- I created the splits for when we enter a dungeon and when we defeat a boss, I made it this way so I could know how long I take in a dungeon and between different dungeons, so the splits can be changed to only time when the bosses are defeated if you'd like (since the bosses are there already);
2- There are some exceptions though, I placed the Village of Ancients as a split between the Giant Rat boss and Tower of Owen, because going to Tokkul for the Lamia Scale is completely optional (if we get a Tranquilizer drop from the Big Rat) and that can lead to different times;
3- I know that there are some dungeons who don't have bosses but they are still there as a split just for a general notion of time wasted;
4- Lastly there is a split for each grinding location and the location after that so we can know how much time we wasted grinding (for example there is a split for Sunken Cave followed by Unei's Cave), once again this is completely for the sake of knowing how long I take grinding in the end it is not necessary;

I hope this helps! I'll post some more things in a couple of weeks when I start speedrunning. Good luck everyone!

Thank you so much for the information! I will take a while before I can produce any good results but as soon as I am able to hit the 8 hour mark I will start posting my results here, if I find anything relevant to help the route out (like testing a different option and finding that it's faster) I will also share it around.
I will do as you informed and time the splits appropriately. I will try out different ways to speedrun the game, starting off by doing a single segment though if I keep getting wiped out by back attacks (as you mentioned) I will switch to separate segments and test what I can do best.
I will ask around for how to deal with the emulators maybe someone can help me with this issue, though for the sake of improving routing I don't think this should be a problem. Emulators have issues with loading screens faster, resulting in minor seconds of difference from what I know.

I got something I want to share, like I mentioned I made splits on Livesplits based on the routing here. If anyone uses that program and wants to make use of the splits I'll attach it here.

Just a couple of notes:
1- I created the splits for when we enter a dungeon and when we defeat a boss, I made it this way so I could know how long I take in a dungeon and between different dungeons, so the splits can be changed to only time when the bosses are defeated if you'd like (since the bosses are there already);
2- There are some exceptions though, I placed the Village of Ancients as a split between the Giant Rat boss and Tower of Owen, because going to Tokkul for the Lamia Scale is completely optional (if we get a Tranquilizer drop from the Big Rat) and that can lead to different times;
3- I know that there are some dungeons who don't have bosses but they are still there as a split just for a general notion of time wasted;
4- Lastly there is a split for each grinding location and the location after that so we can know how much time we wasted grinding (for example there is a split for Sunken Cave followed by Unei's Cave), once again this is completely for the sake of knowing how long I take grinding in the end it is not necessary;

I hope this helps! I'll post some more things in a couple of weeks when I start speedrunning. Good luck everyone!

Attachment:

ff3_ds.lss

2015-01-22 01:50:04 am

hello everyone im also interested in running this but for the PC version. might be a bit difficult but ill try my best to discover any interesting glitchs i find

Chuckolator

Edit history:

Chuckolator: 2015-01-26 01:50:13 am

Chuckolator: 2015-01-26 01:50:03 am

2015-01-25 04:11:13 pm

Quote:

2 - When should I hit the timers for the next split? (this is mainly towards reaching areas, should I time it when I enter the area or when the area finishes to load?)

Splits are totally your own thing. It doesn't matter at all when you have them or when to hit them, they're just a personal thing. If you think something deserves a split, put one in. Hell, you can choose to use no splits at all, just start and end the timer appropriately.

Quote:

I don't know much about the emulation scene, but I don't know if it runs the game at normal speed.

No DS emulators currently exist that emulate lag properly - they will all be faster than console, so should be considered a different category to console if you choose to go that route. You can take a look at the Pokemon community for that kind of documentation, they've studied this topic extensively.

Also I hope you guys realize that you can incorporate saves and resets into the route. It's not like that would disqualify the run or anything. Frankly, attempting to speedrun a game with this kind of manipulatable RNG without considering them is pointless.

Edit: Someone else showed me this: there's a guy on Nico doing FF3 DS route testing, and yes, he says he uses glitches. Worth checking out: http://com.nicovideo.jp/community/co2459051

[quote]2 - When should I hit the timers for the next split? (this is mainly towards reaching areas, should I time it when I enter the area or when the area finishes to load?)[/quote]
Splits are totally your own thing. It doesn't matter at all when you have them or when to hit them, they're just a personal thing. If you think something deserves a split, put one in. Hell, you can choose to use no splits at all, just start and end the timer appropriately.

[quote]I don't know much about the emulation scene, but I don't know if it runs the game at normal speed.[/quote]
No DS emulators currently exist that emulate lag properly - they will all be faster than console, so should be considered a different category to console if you choose to go that route. You can take a look at the Pokemon community for that kind of documentation, they've studied this topic extensively.

Also I hope you guys realize that you can incorporate saves and resets into the route. It's not like that would disqualify the run or anything. Frankly, attempting to speedrun a game with this kind of manipulatable RNG without considering them is pointless.

Edit: Someone else showed me this: there's a guy on Nico doing FF3 DS route testing, and yes, he says he uses glitches. Worth checking out: http://com.nicovideo.jp/community/co2459051

2015-01-27 12:57:13 am

He's at 7:13 right before Ancients' Maze with SCH x4 that just defeated Doga and Unei. What glitches does he use besides the ones we have already said?

Chuckolator

Edit history:

Chuckolator: 2015-01-27 10:26:27 pm

2015-01-27 10:24:46 pm

I don't know anything about what he does, I just thought it would be worth posting that there is someone else doing it. Perhaps you can find something useful from him, or perhaps not, I don't know. Japanese communities -generally- do not use glitches, so I thought it was worth pointing out that he does use them - probably just item dupe.

2015-01-28 03:00:46 am

i have a theory on the encounter rate for this game. i believe that character movement also plays a big part in determining when you will get a encounter. also the way you interact with the menu. im not entirely sure thats why its just a theory however i noticed when i tried different movement patterns that my encounter rate was different for each one

2015-01-28 03:44:35 am

I don't really understand Japanese and the streams are live so I can't really watch on my own time. If the general route just basically consists of the item duplication glitch, then the run shouldn't really be that much different than what we have already established in this thread.

As far as encounter rate goes, there is probably a step counter which increases a random value and once that random value reaches a certain point you get into a battle. Yes, opening the menu changes some form of the RNG, that I know as much.

2015-01-28 01:06:34 pm

to add to this i also believe that going in a diagonal direction increases the value by 2 instead of 1 meaning you may get more encounters for going in a diagonal direction. this was tested though i have yet to be 100% sure as i did not check the games data values while testing

2015-01-30 03:29:38 am

i may have accidentally discovered a way to manipulate encounter RNG to a small amount. do note that this strat does not work 100% of the time. however it works well enough to save 15 min worth of encounters (this is only up to kraken so might be more)
what i did was i moved foward while occasionally bumping into a edge. by edge i mean a wall or some sort of terrain. i might have had god like luck but the fact that i had only about 3 encounters per dungeon is no coincidence.

2015-01-31 02:19:49 pm

Speedrunning Final Fantasy III DS

Interesting discovery, but I am not able to pull it off. Like you said, you might had had insane luck, but I kinda doubt it the way you only had "around 3 encounters per dungeon" and "saved 15 mins up to Kraken". Could you try to experiment a little more with this? Find out exactly how often and how you do it. Like, does it work if you use the touchscreen? Can you go all 8 standard directions, or only 4? How often do you have to bump into something? What is a good bump? Etc.

After you've tested some more, and drawn some conclusions, you should tell us exactly what to do and how to do it with. I hope you're on to something!

2015-02-03 01:55:47 am

the walls of this game are quite interesting... . i opened up some RAM values of this game from a emulator. couple of things i noticed 1. directions have values 2. the game seems to be checking for something outside of battle <-- this might be related to encounter rate as when i enter encounters these values turn to 0. I've always wondered why is it you don't get encounters when you run at a wall? could it be that its due to your position not moving? OR the fact that the game is having a hard time finding you. i noticed as i was running at a wall my directional values would spike all over the place instead of the typical xx-xx digits that it should have. so this brings up a explanation to the bump/wall theory. assuming I'm correct than encounter rate in this game is due to the game examining your position and direction. simply turning/ moving around awkwardly will cause the game to reexamine your position which is not to difficult as it keeps a certain set of numbers for each direction ( i think about 30 Digits per direction ) however running up against the wall will expose all of the digits. causing the game to be unsure of where you are so they can set up a encounter for you. due to this you skip/trick the game from the encounter. due note this is a explanation for somethings. i need to look at the values of the walls more carefully and see if we can exploit it further. another note this does not manipulate it 100% as the game is still checking for you constantly outside of battle so bad RNG means the game pick your position value and placed you in a encounter. ps. (in the case i am hopelessly wrong i am sorry but this is the best explanation i have so far. i do know for a fact however encounters can be manipulated)

the walls of this game are quite interesting... . i opened up some RAM values of this game from a emulator. couple of things i noticed 1. directions have values 2. the game seems to be checking for something outside of battle <-- this might be related to encounter rate as when i enter encounters these values turn to 0. I've always wondered why is it you don't get encounters when you run at a wall? could it be that its due to your position not moving? OR the fact that the game is having a hard time finding you. i noticed as i was running at a wall my directional values would spike all over the place instead of the typical xx-xx digits that it should have. so this brings up a explanation to the bump/wall theory. assuming I'm correct than encounter rate in this game is due to the game examining your position and direction. simply turning/ moving around awkwardly will cause the game to reexamine your position which is not to difficult as it keeps a certain set of numbers for each direction ( i think about 30 Digits per direction ) however running up against the wall will expose all of the digits. causing the game to be unsure of where you are so they can set up a encounter for you. due to this you skip/trick the game from the encounter.   due note this is a explanation for somethings. i need to look at the values of the walls more carefully and see if we can exploit it further. another note this does not manipulate it 100% as the game is still checking for you constantly outside of battle so bad RNG means the game pick your position value and placed you in a encounter.  ps. (in the case i am hopelessly wrong i am sorry but this is the best explanation i have so far. i do know for a fact however encounters can be manipulated)

Edit history:

WasabiKnight: 2015-02-03 06:33:32 am

2015-02-03 06:33:00 am

soloman this information is incredibly useful, I think you are really on to something! I've been running the game a lot these past weeks, and this week I've been streaming my runs, and here's the deal. On the first level of the game after you fight the 3 tutorial goblins and you gain control, I pick up the potion, and trigger the door, when I go past the door and perform the curve I (90% of the time) get in a encounter with a single goblin. Now, I've managed in some runs to avoid this fight, and it was all because I bumped the walls in the right places, just like you theorized! I wasn't recording at the time so I'm not really sure where/how I bumped in to, but from now on I will record my attempts and if I manage to avoid fights for the first floor again I will upload it to Youtube and post it here.

I want to mention that this was no fluke as I distinctly remember on a different occasion, on the second floor to picking up the Antarctic Wind and bump the wall in a place I can't remember and avoid fights for all of the second floor completely.

soloman this information is incredibly useful, I think you are really on to something! I've been running the game a lot these past weeks, and this week I've been streaming my runs, and here's the deal. On the first level of the game after you fight the 3 tutorial goblins and you gain control, I pick up the potion, and trigger the door, when I go past the door and perform the curve I (90% of the time) get in a encounter with a single goblin. Now, I've managed in some runs to avoid this fight, and it was all because I bumped the walls in the right places, just like you theorized! I wasn't recording at the time so I'm not really sure where/how I bumped in to, but from now on I will record my attempts and if I manage to avoid fights for the first floor again I will upload it to Youtube and post it here.

I want to mention that this was no fluke as I distinctly remember on a different occasion, on the second floor to picking up the Antarctic Wind and bump the wall in a place I can't remember and avoid fights for all of the second floor completely.

2015-02-03 08:49:28 pm

just wondering what is your guys best time to reaching kraken?

2015-02-04 01:43:32 pm

Speedrunning Final Fantasy III DS

I don't remember the exact time, but I think it is around 2 hours, maybe slightly less.