European Speedster Assembly 2013 - Feedback thread [locked]

Edit history:

MrLonghair: 2013-08-06 02:06:57 am

2013-08-06 02:06:07 am

Audio-guy. twitchtv:ohgoddamnit

Micicing discipline was non-existant. I had plans for a day one hard briefing for runners and commenters of "go to this desk, equip mic, verify functionality, sit down and do your work" but ended up home. The audio going flat out silent after roaring high priority mics was a technical issue that looks to have come from the low-input streaming computer.

(Personal idea for a goal: Make more charity money, more donation incentives while keeping ESA being the chill Swedish summer festival it is. I think it should be doable.)

(Ah. Read edenal's post is now on the previous page, recommended you tab back for a good reply to feedback there)

Svenne

2013-08-06 05:31:40 am

Smörgåsbord

When the schedule was being completed there was only two games that could be the starter, Toki or GoldenEye. Being that more people waited for the marathon to start then what we had as a peak last year, I think I did the right decision and that race was really fun. Smiley

RoboSparkle

2013-08-06 12:34:50 pm

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

I have mixed feelings about Toki, and ironically the issue is that Shrimp and Adam were TOO good at the game. Toki is hilarious because it is very unfair, it kills you at every turn and aspects of the game are just ridiculous (see: the blind Toki race in bonus stream). I think it would have been good to have the race in the marathon because Adam and Shrimp are very good at the game and it is a good run to watch but with the benefit of hindsight I probably wouldn't have used it as the opener.

Some games are like that; for example during ESA Oasiz and I attempted to introduce a few people to Rick Dangerous for the Amiga, which is a brilliant game that has booby traps EVERYWHERE and will kill you often for the slightest misstep (think IWBTG with a Lives counter and less forgiving). But a live speedrun of it wouldn't be interesting because anyone competent at the game won't hit any traps and suddenly it looks like a slightly dull old-school platformer.

mikwuyma

2013-08-06 02:31:02 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Robosparkle said it best about Toki, and that's what Adam and I agreed on when we talked about it at SGDQ. When people are playing through Toki for the first time, it's hilarious because the game is stupid and bullshit. But when you have two people who are good at the game racing Toki, it just looks like a slow platformer.

Harima

2013-08-06 02:39:50 pm

Literally speaking... literally...

A slow, rather doable platformer. Bonus stream showed the true face of Toki.
But otherwise most of the important things have already been mentioned so far, so no need to recapture that.

What I'm currently looking for though is any information regarding recordings of the marathon. I'm aware that encoded versions of all the runs take incredible amounts of time and work but during the marathon a YouTube encode was mentioned several times. Where can people find that? A link would be really good, not for me alone but everyone else too that missed a run due to sleep or work. Or is there some kind of twitch timestamps recorded somewhere like someone did for SGDQ?
Either way, some info regarding that would be greatly appreciated.

Otherwise really fun event with a few problems, that got a little better later (mentioning the charity more, plugging future incentives, runs, and so on).

Svenne

Edit history:

Svenne: 2013-08-06 03:24:20 pm

2013-08-06 03:22:14 pm

Smörgåsbord

http://www.youtube.com/user/EuroSpeedAssembly

Yeah, I think you are right about Toki, the thing was that we did not want to start with two short games so if someone showed up late to the marathon, they would miss a whole run. So we did not start with DuckTales 1 and 2 because of it, and we also started esa2012 with ducktales 1 and 2. BUt what you are saying is pretty much is that toki was not a good starting game. I need to know what would be a good starting game! (lenght, how well known etc)

Alko

2013-08-06 03:27:40 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Re Youtube: The runs (and other stuff?) are still being uploaded there. Have patience and expect a note (in the main thread?) when they're all done ^^

RoboSparkle

2013-08-06 04:39:41 pm

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

In terms of starting games, it depends if you want to start on a block or a single standalone game. Either way you should be looking around the 1hr to 2hr 30min. Duck Tales was fine last year because iirc the main audience was very much on board with that and they are well known and respected speedrunning games. Looking back at the 'GQDs you have Okami (standalone - 2hrs), Ape Escape (standalone - 1hr), Startropics (1 & 2 - 2hr 30mins), Psychonauts (standalone, 1hr 20mins). In each case the games have never been mario or zelda levels of popularity but have a reasonable following and are somewhat popular speedrunning games where the runs look nice and as such have been nice openers.

In terms of what could have led instead (again, with the benefit of hindsight) there were a few options. Ape Escape 100% (if you didn't mind repeating AGDQ), Spyro 2 100% (If you don't mind no donations for language / spyro colour), Donkey Kong Country Returns (with the rest of the DK block following it), Scott Pilgrim, Resident Evil 4 race, or Star Fox 64 & Assault. I just picked a few games from the schedule that I think wouldn't look out of place as the lead game. Having said that, Toki is the only starter game in a marathon I've actually been interested in for a number of years so I'm probably not the best judge Smiley

In terms of starting games, it depends if you want to start on a block or a single standalone game.  Either way you should be looking around the 1hr to 2hr 30min.  Duck Tales was fine last year because iirc the main audience was very much on board with that and they are well known and respected speedrunning games.  Looking back at the 'GQDs you have Okami (standalone - 2hrs), Ape Escape (standalone - 1hr), Startropics (1 & 2 - 2hr 30mins), Psychonauts (standalone, 1hr 20mins).  In each case the games have never been mario or zelda levels of popularity but have a reasonable following and are somewhat popular speedrunning games where the runs look nice and as such have been nice openers.

In terms of what could have led instead (again, with the benefit of hindsight) there were a few options.  Ape Escape 100% (if you didn't mind repeating AGDQ), Spyro 2 100% (If you don't mind no donations for language / spyro colour), Donkey Kong Country Returns (with the rest of the DK block following it), Scott Pilgrim, Resident Evil 4 race, or Star Fox 64 & Assault.  I just picked a few games from the schedule that I think wouldn't look out of place as the lead game.  Having said that, Toki is the only starter game in a marathon I've actually been interested in for a number of years so I'm probably not the best judge :)

ThaRixer

2013-08-06 07:34:26 pm

Dog

For the feedback i'd like to add in:

Positives:
- I really think our stream layout looked great, with its stunning look, even before the marathon started.
- I like that we did more obscure games than other marathons do.
- I think the chat treated us nicely because we were good hosts.

Negatives:

- This is probably my biggest complaint. Throughout half of my Jak 3 run i could hear people talking either behind me or at the donation station. I personally could not concentrate on the commentary. If they want to say something they should at least be quiet
- I think for one or two of my runs, there was no one at the timer. Either to stop it when i was done, or paused it when my game froze.
- I think we should try to improve our commentary somehow next year.

Half of this stuff is probably just me trying to act way to professional, but what really mattered was that it was still great marathon even with flaws Smiley

WorldEater

2013-08-07 12:59:20 am

Just want to add 2 things:

- I really like that you pick some not so famous games. Since I'm a big game boy fan I loved to see some GB games at the marathon
- Flicky (together with robosparkle) made an interview / Chat Q&A with AdamAK while there was a short setup break. It was really hilarious and informative. You should do this more often

ozzy88

Edit history:

ozzy88: 2013-08-07 01:55:20 am

2013-08-07 01:25:58 am

Quote from WorldEater:

- Flicky (together with robosparkle) made an interview / Chat Q&A with AdamAK while there was a short setup break. It was really hilarious and informative. You should do this more often

The plan was for every setup-block was that there would be some interviews, sadly most setup-blocks had to be ignored to gain back time from different setbacks.

Alko

2013-08-07 05:52:14 am

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Quote from ozzy88:

Quote from WorldEater:

- Flicky (together with robosparkle) made an interview / Chat Q&A with AdamAK while there was a short setup break. It was really hilarious and informative. You should do this more often

The plan was for every setup-block was that there would be some interviews, sadly most setup-blocks had to be ignored to gain back time from different setbacks.

I feel you might be talking about different things here.
Yes, the setup-blocks (as in dedicated setup times on schedule) were meant to be turned into interviews as the schedule said. (and at least Wery got interviewed, because I was there, relaying questions).
What also happened during the setup in-between games: Once Flicky was there and had a mic to his disposal he just started talking to chat and spontaneously starting 'interviews' with the people right around him. (one of them was me and Nev, was Tompa there as well?) That falls into the category of 'Donation station should always be talking, if there is nothing else happening in the room, because they don't have to cope with things like cropping, console setup, handing out mics etc.' Which I think I've said before, should happen.

[quote="ozzy88"][quote="WorldEater"]- Flicky (together with robosparkle) made an interview / Chat Q&A with AdamAK while there was a short setup break. It was really hilarious and informative. You should do this more often[/quote]

The plan was for every setup-block was that there would be some interviews, sadly most setup-blocks had to be ignored to gain back time from different setbacks. [/quote]
I feel you might be talking about different things here.
Yes, the setup-blocks (as in dedicated setup times on schedule) were meant to be turned into interviews as the schedule said. (and at least Wery got interviewed, because I was there, relaying questions).
What also happened during the setup in-between games: Once Flicky was there and had a mic to his disposal he just started talking to chat and spontaneously starting 'interviews' with the people right around him. (one of them was me and Nev, was Tompa there as well?) That falls into the category of 'Donation station should always be talking, if there is nothing else happening in the room, because they don't have to cope with things like cropping, console setup, handing out mics etc.' Which I think I've said before, should happen.

MrLonghair

2013-08-07 09:18:07 am

Audio-guy. twitchtv:ohgoddamnit

The more feedback I read, the more scenes I see where I would have taken command (atten-hut) and (kindly) whipped things into shape if I had attended in person :<

Next ESA is going to dominate as long as people listen to the big bald mutha in a suit.

The Sid

Edit history:

The Sid: 2013-08-08 05:18:06 pm

2013-08-08 12:25:53 pm

raising the stakes on being bad!

I guess I should agree with some of the others
- the stream lay out was very clean and I loved it from the start despite the odd camera angles in the beginning
- the mix of games was fantastic and the things that could be watched at this marathon as apposed to a GDQ is in a great juxtaposition.

one more negative thing is
-the commentary did seem to suffer at points, like most of the other have said, due to lack of attention, kinda of sad being the depth and variety of games being the main selling point making this a bit of an issue.
Edit* Mike is right i just poorly phrased my sentence.
The runners themselves did a good job despite the language barrier, I was referring to the lack of wing man on the couch providing assistance in some cases, and in other cases others just distracting the runner making it hard for them to commentate. Though I do realize it is still a little much to expect every one to get a couch commando that knows your game and English relatively well.
If this still seems poorly phrased I am just trying to add constructive criticism, and its fair to call me out if Im outta bound, but please believe me it comes from a genuine place

hope to see this marathon improve next year and have it to be just as much fun to watch as it is to attended.
good luck and good speed my fellows from across the pond Grin

I guess I should agree with some of the others 
- the stream lay out was very clean and I loved it from the start despite the odd camera angles in the beginning
- the mix of games was fantastic and the things that could be watched at this marathon as apposed to a GDQ is in a great juxtaposition.

one more negative thing is
-[s]the commentary did seem to suffer at points, like most of the other have said, due to lack of attention, kinda of sad being the depth and variety of games being the main selling point making this a bit of an issue.[/s]
Edit* Mike is right i just poorly phrased my sentence. 
The runners themselves did a good job despite the language barrier, I was referring to the lack of wing man on the couch providing assistance in some cases, and in other cases others just distracting the runner making it hard for them to commentate. Though I do realize it is still a little much to expect every one to get a couch commando that knows your game and English relatively well.
If this still seems poorly phrased I am just trying to add constructive criticism, and its fair to call me out if Im outta bound, but please believe me it comes from a genuine place

hope to see this marathon improve next year and have it to be just as much fun to watch as it is to attended.
good luck and good speed my fellows from across the pond ;D

mikwuyma

Edit history:

mikwuyma: 2013-08-08 03:59:13 pm

2013-08-08 03:45:24 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Starter games: I think Robosparkle did a good job of summing it up.

About the setup block, you guys did a really good job of adhering to to the schedule, but you might want to add some more buffer in between runs so that if something went wrong (like near the end), you don't have to sacrifice things. It's much easier to fill in time than to shave time.

I don't think commentary is fair game for criticism because for many runners and commentators, English is not their first language. I know for some people it comes more naturally (like AdamAK and Robosparkle), but for a lot of people, they have to think about what they say because English doesn't come as naturally to them.

oasiz

2013-08-09 12:27:07 am

Iha paska

Let's do it all in swedish and have a ghetto english re-stream in the storage room !

Joka

2013-08-09 12:35:29 am

Personal text

Quote from mikwuyma:

but for a lot of people, they have to think about what they say because English doesn't come as naturally to them.

Yepp.. and then you mess up something in the run instead :/

RoboSparkle

2013-08-09 12:41:35 am

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

Quote from oasiz:

Let's do it all in swedish and have a ghetto english re-stream in the storage room !

Attachment:

English.png

The Sid

2013-08-09 11:10:36 am

raising the stakes on being bad!

^^^^^^
that is exactly what stupid English speakers like me deserve.
That's just to funny to not post in response to that made me smile Cheesy

glad you guys have such a great sense of humor.

LotBlind

2013-08-09 12:12:52 pm

So my general feedback is that everything went better than expected! It was my first marathon and I sometimes felt ambivalent about coming to attend it, but I have hardly any regrets now!

1) The feedback thread could also be initiated by a post that summarizes issues that the organizers are already going to be working on to cut down on duplicate comments. On the other hand it seems beneficial that it's a very freeform forum.

2) RoboSparkle, Timpz and some others brought up breakfast/kitchen stuff... It is true that the main issue this year was that it hadn't been prepared for as fully as it requires. As with many other issues, this time it's me who can say that this WILL be better next year with a guarantee, there's already plans of filling in the volunteer schedules ahead of time. Not even this year did anyone have to compromise much of their running/watching schedules for voluntary work in the kitchen or elsewhere (within my range of vision) and the better organization next year will guarantee people will have A LOT of alternatives to choose between in the ways they can offer their help to the event, especially if they sign up early. Also, breakfast will continue to be for everyone seeing as you may have duties elsewhere.

3) Sometimes I wanted to ask someone to wake me up at a certain time, but didn't really know who to ask. This would have been to avoid using an alarm clock (though maybe it wouldn't really have woken anyone else). Seeing as some runners/commentators ended up being missing when it was their turn makes me think they should be asked to be around already an hour or so before go-time to make sure they haven't forgotten. And if we are able to plan everyone's work schedules well enough, there should be no problems of the sort of not getting enough sleep in before your run. But in any case, would it be useful to have a system of wake-ups-at-request? You write down your name, see who has key-duty whenever you need to arise, mention it to them if you can find them... Maybe something like this?

Timpz mentioned poor communication with the "keymaster" but personally it seemed to me it worked well... The key-person should always check whether there's anyone wanting to go on the hour and those people should be waiting at the door on the hour.

4) Audio: One of the issues mentioned quite frequently was the viewers could not hear whenever someone spoke out in the audience. I have no doubt the audio team already has a few solutions at hand, but my first thought was simply to ask the runner and commentators to repeat whatever was said before answering. Looks like AdamAK had the same idea.

5) The room looking empty at times: yeah maybe changing the camera view would be an idea for such times, and in general. The first run and other "special" times may need to show the whole room, even just to give a glimpse into the tech stations, but after that it feels like a good idea to focus more on the runners and commentators. Looks like there's technical concerns with that... Could the view be zoomed in and cropped if necessary? Would that lower quality too much?

6) Even though there are points of dispute (as with the audio setups and using laptops and whatnot), I'd like to remind people that deciding to do something differently next time just for the sake of doing it differently may well give you better grounds for making decisions in the future.

7) Twich chat is ALWAYS always horrible. Props to the mods for trying to keep it a little better. It's even worse if your stream happens to be on Twitch front page (despite adding more viewers, most of them aren't the kind that we like anyway to be a little cynical).

8) Yes, the Toki blind race in the bonus stream was hilarious to no limits...

The Sid it's great to hear a viewer's opinion because you're right, most people posting here were part of the organizing or present at the marathon in some way!

...

Super Metroid has a run button?

So my general feedback is that everything went better than expected! It was my first marathon and I sometimes felt ambivalent about coming to attend it, but I have hardly any regrets now!

1) The feedback thread could also be initiated by a post that summarizes issues that the organizers are already going to be working on to cut down on duplicate comments. On the other hand it seems beneficial that it's a very freeform forum.

2) RoboSparkle, Timpz and some others brought up breakfast/kitchen stuff... It is true that the main issue this year was that it hadn't been prepared for as fully as it requires. As with many other issues, this time it's me who can say that this WILL be better next year with a guarantee, there's already plans of filling in the volunteer schedules ahead of time. Not even this year did anyone have to compromise much of their running/watching schedules for voluntary work in the kitchen or elsewhere (within my range of vision) and the better organization next year will guarantee people will have A LOT of alternatives to choose between in the ways they can offer their help to the event, especially if they sign up early. Also, breakfast will continue to be for everyone seeing as you may have duties elsewhere.

3) Sometimes I wanted to ask someone to wake me up at a certain time, but didn't really know who to ask. This would have been to avoid using an alarm clock (though maybe it wouldn't really have woken anyone else). Seeing as some runners/commentators ended up being missing when it was their turn makes me think they should be asked to be around already an hour or so before go-time to make sure they haven't forgotten. And if we are able to plan everyone's work schedules well enough, there should be no problems of the sort of not getting enough sleep in before your run. But in any case, would it be useful to have a system of wake-ups-at-request? You write down your name, see who has key-duty whenever you need to arise, mention it to them if you can find them... Maybe something like this?

Timpz mentioned poor communication with the "keymaster" but personally it seemed to me it worked well... The key-person should always check whether there's anyone wanting to go on the hour and those people should be waiting at the door on the hour.

4) Audio: One of the issues mentioned quite frequently was the viewers could not hear whenever someone spoke out in the audience. I have no doubt the audio team already has a few solutions at hand, but my first thought was simply to ask the runner and commentators to repeat whatever was said before answering. Looks like AdamAK had the same idea.

5) The room looking empty at times: yeah maybe changing the camera view would be an idea for such times, and in general. The first run and other "special" times may need to show the whole room, even just to give a glimpse into the tech stations, but after that it feels like a good idea to focus more on the runners and commentators. Looks like there's technical concerns with that... Could the view be zoomed in and cropped if necessary? Would that lower quality too much?

6) Even though there are points of dispute (as with the audio setups and using laptops and whatnot), I'd like to remind people that deciding to do something differently next time just for the sake of doing it differently may well give you better grounds for making decisions in the future.

7) Twich chat is ALWAYS always horrible. Props to the mods for trying to keep it a little better. It's even worse if your stream happens to be on Twitch front page (despite adding more viewers, most of them aren't the kind that we like anyway to be a little cynical).

8) Yes, the Toki blind race in the bonus stream was hilarious to no limits...

The Sid it's great to hear a viewer's opinion because you're right, most people posting here were part of the organizing or present at the marathon in some way!

...

Super Metroid has a run button?