European Speedster Assembly 2013 - Feedback thread [locked]

2013-08-03 06:11:43 pm

Audio-guy. twitchtv:ohgoddamnit

Quote from mikwuyma:

3. Did you guys have a compressor? It seemed like anytime the audio was loud (like during Etholon's cube run), the sound would cut out.

4. Did you guys ever have to replace the batteries on the lavalier mics? We're going to buy more lavaliers for AGDQ because

5. Who handled the tech stuff anyway? From this topic it looks like it was MrLonghair and Oasiz. I want to ask them some questions about their setup, because the tech stuff was quite fast and impressive.

3. The only compressors were the one onboard the Yamaha MG166C mixer, really not made for what was necessary here. A limiter would have kept signals from killing the audio, but it looks like the board was run "hot" because the streaming computer had a low input volume. The audio dipping could have come from circuit overload from that, a freaking PITA of an issue that would be solved by something as simple as a decent ($40) USB soundcard.

4. Beltpack batteries were replaced time to time, no in-line batteries were used. Normally powered lav mics should have their single battery replaced after 30-35 hours.

5. I assisted from home due to disease, helped with sound-checking and rigging, provided some equipment, pointers and teachings (definitely not enough). One arrangement was to have a mic underneath the desk with TVs pointed towards the center of the "couch" area, it ended up picking up some wonderful joypad clicking ambience and crowd audio.

[quote="mikwuyma"]3. Did you guys have a compressor? It seemed like anytime the audio was loud (like during Etholon's cube run), the sound would cut out.

4. Did you guys ever have to replace the batteries on the lavalier mics? We're going to buy more lavaliers for AGDQ because

5. Who handled the tech stuff anyway? From this topic it looks like it was MrLonghair and Oasiz. I want to ask them some questions about their setup, because the tech stuff was quite fast and impressive.[/quote]

3. The only compressors were the one onboard the Yamaha MG166C mixer, really not made for what was necessary here. A limiter would have kept signals from killing the audio, but it looks like the board was run "hot" because the streaming computer had a low input volume. The audio dipping could have come from circuit overload from that, a freaking PITA of an issue that would be solved by something as simple as a decent ($40) USB soundcard.

4. Beltpack batteries were replaced time to time, no in-line batteries were used. Normally powered lav mics should have their single battery replaced after 30-35 hours.

5. I assisted from home due to disease, helped with sound-checking and rigging, provided some equipment, pointers and teachings (definitely not enough). One arrangement was to have a mic underneath the desk with TVs pointed towards the center of the "couch" area, it ended up picking up some wonderful joypad clicking ambience and crowd audio.

RoboSparkle

2013-08-03 06:22:08 pm

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

Quote from mikwuyma:

1. What stream program did you use? Xsplit? OBS?

We used Xsplit for this, there were a number of pre-set scenes for different types of runs, races, etc. And I think a program using XML (can't remember though) that we used to enter the run/runner info/estimates etc. that updated the stream automatically. Oasiz, Edenal or Neviutz would probably be able to give you more detail on the Xsplit setup though.

AdamAK

2013-08-03 06:47:05 pm

Totally rad

Echoing flicky's words here, so I'll keep it very short. What made ESA my favourite marathon was that fun came first, and the charity/donations second. Due to the fact that we weren't representing the charity, we had a lot more freedom on stream, which I loved. I sincerely hope it'll be similar next year.

Crippe

2013-08-04 03:23:16 pm

meh

Ludendi is all about gaming gatherings, so expect next year to be the same or even better Smiley

Edenal

Edit history:

Edenal: 2013-08-05 02:49:15 am

2013-08-05 02:48:26 am

Hockey enthusiast

Even though I answered some of these questions when we talked last night. There might be others interested in the answers. So here we go!

Quote from mikwuyma:

1. What stream program did you use? Xsplit? OBS?

We used X-split, due to it's easier to use than OBS. We are looking into changing to OBS.

Quote from mikwuyma:

2. The 60 fps stream was sexy, I'm guessing that was done through the upscaler. We used a xrgb framemeister-mini but it might have fucked up because it was going through the dvd recorder first (btw I have no intention of using dvd recorders the next agdq).

Europe being SCART-land, and me and Oasiz having a big big big love for RGB, we wanted to stream with RGB as much as possible.
We decided that everything should be upscaled to 720p/60, to never, ever force us to change any settings within X-split. And being Europe-land, we also have to deal with different framerates and colorspaces from all PAL games we had on the schedule. Prior to ESA, I had tested the setup with every console I owned. But somehow forgot to test PAL60 (fuck that format btw...) and did not take into account that Xbox360 could both be SD and HD, also we had modded consoles with 50/60Hz switches that we had not anticipated. WMJ has way more experience with these types on consoles. I will be buying a Sync Strike and write a compendium for what consoles / setups works in the future.

Anyway...

The equipment we used was:

1x Black Magic Intensity Pro (Main capture)
1x PEXHDCAP (Secondary capture)
1x KISS-558 DVD-recorder (Needed to upscale PAL-content to 480i/576i to work with the CM-393)
2x CM-393 Scaler (Deinterlace 480i/576i and in the next step upscale to 720p. The second step was was added to not loose ~15 pixels on the right side of the screen when upscaling straight to 720p)
1x CP-255 Scaler (Eats anything, but SCART without further adapters. Amazing scaler!)
2x Powered SCART Splitters (1-in / 4-out. - Accepts composite/s-video/RGB)

Main setup:
Console -> Splitter -> KISS-558 -> CM-393 Scaler -> Capture card (RGB if possible)

PC-setup:
Console -> Splitter -> CP-255 scaled to 720p. Very simple.
D-Sub splitter to get the same image on the PC-monitor as the stream.

Audio:
For all console games, it was drawn from the splitter.
For all PC games, we split the 3.5mm output from the PC. One to speaker or headphones, one to mixer.

Races Console (second console):
Console -> Spliter -> CM-255 Scaler -> Capture card
With more preparation and just a tad more equipment we could have gotten RGB here as well. To simplify setup, we went composite.

Races PC:
PC -> CM-393 scaler -> Capture card
The CM-393 also upscales HDMI to 720, or acts like a pass-through.
The PC had to be set to 720p/60 and cloned to the monitor + HDMI-output. Both ways worked.

Really interested in how the XRGB-mini worked for you. Been looking into buying one myself. Especially how it handles PAL60 content / modded consoles with 50/60Hz switches.

Quote from mikwuyma:

3. Did you guys have a compressor? It seemed like anytime the audio was loud (like during Etholon's cube run), the sound would cut out.

Longhair has answered this I believe?

Quote from mikwuyma:

4. Did you guys ever have to replace the batteries on the lavalier mics? We're going to buy more lavaliers for AGDQ because the one we had during SGDQ was very well-received.

Mic-transmitters ran of AA-batteries. And we had Nisse made sure there were enough juice in them, and had changed/charged them every 8-12 hours. We had replacement batteries to cover all our needs.

Quote from mikwuyma:

5. Who handled the tech stuff anyway? From this topic it looks like it was MrLonghair and Oasiz. I want to ask them some questions about their setup, because the tech stuff was quite fast and impressive.

Stream-tech: Me, Oasiz and Nev.
Audio-tech: Longhair, Nisse and Charleon. (Grukk also manned the station alot on-site)

Even though I answered some of these questions when we talked last night. There might be others interested in the answers. So here we go!

[quote="mikwuyma"]
1. What stream program did you use? Xsplit? OBS?[/quote]
We used X-split, due to it's easier to use than OBS. We are looking into changing to OBS.

[quote="mikwuyma"]
2. The 60 fps stream was sexy, I'm guessing that was done through the upscaler. We used a xrgb framemeister-mini but it might have fucked up because it was going through the dvd recorder first (btw I have no intention of using dvd recorders the next agdq).[/quote]
Europe being SCART-land, and me and Oasiz having a big big big love for RGB, we wanted to stream with RGB as much as possible.
We decided that everything should be upscaled to 720p/60, to never, ever force us to change any settings within X-split. And being Europe-land, we also have to deal with different framerates and colorspaces from all PAL games we had on the schedule. Prior to ESA, I had tested the setup with every console I owned. But somehow forgot to test PAL60 (fuck that format btw...) and did not take into account that Xbox360 could both be SD and HD, also we had modded consoles with 50/60Hz switches that we had not anticipated. WMJ has way more experience with these types on consoles. I will be buying a Sync Strike and write a compendium for what consoles / setups works in the future.

Anyway...

The equipment we used was:

1x Black Magic Intensity Pro (Main capture)
1x PEXHDCAP (Secondary capture)
1x KISS-558 DVD-recorder (Needed to upscale PAL-content to 480i/576i to work with the CM-393)
2x CM-393 Scaler (Deinterlace 480i/576i and in the next step upscale to 720p. The second step was was added to not loose ~15 pixels on the right side of the screen when upscaling straight to 720p)
1x CP-255 Scaler (Eats anything, but SCART without further adapters. Amazing scaler!)
2x Powered SCART Splitters (1-in / 4-out. - Accepts composite/s-video/RGB)

Main setup: 
Console -> Splitter -> KISS-558 -> CM-393 Scaler -> Capture card (RGB if possible)

PC-setup:
Console -> Splitter -> CP-255 scaled to 720p. Very simple. 
D-Sub splitter to get the same image on the PC-monitor as the stream.

Audio: 
For all console games, it was drawn from the splitter.
For all PC games, we split the 3.5mm output from the PC. One to speaker or headphones, one to mixer.

Races Console (second console): 
Console -> Spliter -> CM-255 Scaler -> Capture card
With more preparation and just a tad more equipment we could have gotten RGB here as well. To simplify setup, we went composite.

Races PC:
PC -> CM-393 scaler -> Capture card
The CM-393 also upscales HDMI to 720, or acts like a pass-through. 
The PC had to be set to 720p/60 and cloned to the monitor + HDMI-output. Both ways worked.

Really interested in how the XRGB-mini worked for you. Been looking into buying one myself. Especially how it handles PAL60 content / modded consoles with 50/60Hz switches.

[quote="mikwuyma"]
3. Did you guys have a compressor? It seemed like anytime the audio was loud (like during Etholon's cube run), the sound would cut out.[/quote]
Longhair has answered this I believe?

[quote="mikwuyma"]
4. Did you guys ever have to replace the batteries on the lavalier mics? We're going to buy more lavaliers for AGDQ because the one we had during SGDQ was very well-received.[/quote]

Mic-transmitters ran of AA-batteries. And we had Nisse made sure there were enough juice in them, and had changed/charged them every 8-12 hours. We had replacement batteries to cover all our needs.

[quote="mikwuyma"]
5. Who handled the tech stuff anyway? From this topic it looks like it was MrLonghair and Oasiz. I want to ask them some questions about their setup, because the tech stuff was quite fast and impressive.[/quote]

Stream-tech: Me, Oasiz and Nev.
Audio-tech: Longhair, Nisse and Charleon. (Grukk also manned the station alot on-site)

charleon

2013-08-05 02:59:12 am

What is a man?

Quote from Edenal:

Audio-tech: Longhair, Nisse and Charleon. (Grukk also manned the station alot on-site)

My main area was to attend to the wireless mics and adjust Audio-volumes when needed. For actual setups and tech-questions, please refer to Nisse and Longhair as I am quite clueless to the Hardware that was used Smiley

Edenal

Edit history:

Edenal: 2013-08-05 06:23:58 am

Edenal: 2013-08-05 05:18:39 am

2013-08-05 05:17:37 am

Hockey enthusiast

In regards to the future of ESA and proximity to SGDQ and other events.
I believe I speak for everyone involved in planing that we were happy with this year position, in between EVO and SGDQ. While you can argue that we would have been better off distancing the events, we increased both out viewer-count by a tenfold, and the donation totalt with more than 6 times last year! We are soo thrilled about that. For upcoming years, if ESA continues we will have to figure out the best time for the event when we know when Dreamhack, EVO and SGDQ will be. Mike and Drew have been awesome in their communications with us, and we plan to continuously have conversations from now, till next year.

As for the places ESA are heading in terms of casual vs. donations. I don't think it's fair to make the distinction that way. That ESA was so "casual" this year, and last year for that matter, was not totally intentional. It's simply due to that the staff is too small to handle an event of that magnitude and the attendees just were themselves. Incidentally it worked out just fine and as long it does, why fix what isn't broken.

We will most likely put more effort into the charity upcoming years. But only through more donations incentives, prizes and promotion. Not through "safe?/super popular" game selection. Personally I feel there's room for even more indie- and lesser know titles and more experimentation. I know I spoke with someone about having "Bullet-hell"-games and even Rock Band if we can get good enough players to do them. Maybe 4 hours a day unscheduled for some really funky casual stuff? Official bonkers understream? I don't know...

Planning
Mail lists to spread information - Simply yes.
Additional clearly defined roles. Pre-event roles, on-site roles, post-event roles.

Staff
Expanding the staff is something we are looking to do. With this comes knowledge transfer because it is not viable to only have one person on-site who knows the details of the audio-setup and two for the stream PC. And it's not like we are going having a set amount of spots to fill, if you want to volunteer, speak up!

I personally felt like being a part, and helping out planning ESA brought me closer to the other guys. And made my ESA experience better.

Knowledge Transfer
Niss3 had a very good routine he said doctors used during their education. Called "Learn, Do, Teach". It's exactly as it sounds. First you learn from someone, then you do the task under supervision, finally you teach it to someone else. Brilliant!
Which we will use this method and implement it together with detailed documentation / cheat sheets.

Stream room issues
It's not fair to put that much blame the tech-crew for everything here. Because a majority of the issues were actually caused by the runners themselves. Sleeping in, not having a console ready, special demands for microphones etc. Of course there were times when the tech-crew were to blame for delays and issues and we've all learned from it. It was the first ever marathon experience for a lot of attendees, nerves came into play.

Though the one thing we've learned is to have a rundown with everyone about the routines when going on stream.

Equipment leaving the venue
Unless Ludendi buys equipment, this is still going to be an issue. Of course you can argue that equipment can be shipped back and forth, but in the end it's up to the person owning them. And I can really understand if someone would not be comfortable leaving equipment worth hundreds of dollars without supervision.

Commentary / Donation reading / On-site responsibilities in general
We are fortunate to have you guys outside the planing crew, Tompa, Alko, Bangerra, Suzy, Charleon, Grukk, Nev, Icedpingu, Lotblind who took on the tasks needed on site. (And anyone who helped but I failed to mention)
All we can do is be more specific about what we need assistance with during future events. And to be fair to those who offered to help, we did not do a good enough job in making it easy to do so.

We are looking to make it even easier to help out on site. Providing education for the tasks, and enabling sign-ups for specific roles prior to the event. And even make schedules, with short shifts so can volunteer for a short shift maybe one or twice during the entire event (still leaving hundreds of hours for playing games!)

Stream and Audio equipment / performance
Don't feel like this is something I need to go through here. We have a good idea about what we need to improve, and are going to discuss possible solutions to these problems amongst ourselves first.

Bottom line
It might sound like ESA is turning more strict and "less fun" from my answers. But that's not true at all. The planing will become much more strict sure, but for the actual stream, we have no intentions of making it any different (except for maybe no more Dark Souls, not because it wasn't the best run, but because of the conflicts with the chat).

Feel free to hurl any questions and we will try to answer them to the best of our abilities.

Edit: So many typos, and I'm sure there are dozens of grammatical errors still present.

[b]In regards to the future of ESA and proximity to SGDQ and other events.[/b]
I believe I speak for everyone involved in planing that we were happy with this year position, in between EVO and SGDQ. While you can argue that we would have been better off distancing the events, we increased both out viewer-count by a tenfold, and the donation totalt with more than 6 times last year! We are soo thrilled about that. For upcoming years, if ESA continues we will have to figure out the best time for the event when we know when Dreamhack, EVO and SGDQ will be. Mike and Drew have been awesome in their communications with us, and we plan to continuously have conversations from now, till next year.

As for the places ESA are heading in terms of casual vs. donations. I don't think it's fair to make the distinction that way. That ESA was so "casual" this year, and last year for that matter, was not totally intentional. It's simply due to that the staff is too small to handle an event of that magnitude and the attendees just were themselves. Incidentally it worked out just fine and as long it does, why fix what isn't broken.

We will most likely put more effort into the charity upcoming years. But only through more donations incentives, prizes and promotion. Not through "safe?/super popular" game selection. Personally I feel there's room for even more indie- and lesser know titles and more experimentation. I know I spoke with someone about having "Bullet-hell"-games and even Rock Band if we can get good enough players to do them. Maybe 4 hours a day unscheduled for some really funky casual stuff? Official bonkers understream? I don't know...

[b]Planning[/b]
Mail lists to spread information - Simply yes.
Additional clearly defined roles. Pre-event roles, on-site roles, post-event roles.

[b]Staff[/b]
Expanding the staff is something we are looking to do. With this comes knowledge transfer because it is not viable to only have one person on-site who knows the details of the audio-setup and two for the stream PC. And it's not like we are going having a set amount of spots to fill, if [u]you[/u] want to volunteer, speak up!

I personally felt like being a part, and helping out planning ESA brought me closer to the other guys. And made my ESA experience better.

[b]Knowledge Transfer[/b]
Niss3 had a very good routine he said doctors used during their education. Called "Learn, Do, Teach". It's exactly as it sounds. First you learn from someone, then you do the task under supervision, finally you teach it to someone else. Brilliant!
Which we will use this method and implement it together with detailed documentation / cheat sheets.

[b]Stream room issues[/b]
It's not fair to put that much blame the tech-crew for everything here. Because a majority of the issues were actually caused by the runners themselves. Sleeping in, not having a console ready, special demands for microphones etc. Of course there were times when the tech-crew were to blame for delays and issues and we've all learned from it. It was the first ever marathon experience for a lot of attendees, nerves came into play.

Though the one thing we've learned is to have a rundown with everyone about the routines when going on stream.

[b]Equipment leaving the venue[/b]
Unless Ludendi buys equipment, this is still going to be an issue. Of course you can argue that equipment can be shipped back and forth, but in the end it's up to the person owning them. And I can really understand if someone would not be comfortable leaving equipment worth hundreds of dollars without supervision.

[b]Commentary / Donation reading / On-site responsibilities in general[/b]
We are fortunate to have you guys outside the planing crew, Tompa, Alko, Bangerra, Suzy, Charleon, Grukk, Nev, Icedpingu, Lotblind who took on the tasks needed on site. (And anyone who helped but I failed to mention)
All we can do is be more specific about what we need assistance with during future events. And to be fair to those who offered to help, we did not do a good enough job in making it easy to do so.

We are looking to make it even easier to help out on site. Providing education for the tasks, and enabling sign-ups for specific roles prior to the event. And even make schedules, with short shifts so can volunteer for a short shift maybe one or twice during the entire event (still leaving hundreds of hours for playing games!)

[b]Stream and Audio equipment / performance[/b]
Don't feel like this is something I need to go through here. We have a good idea about what we need to improve, and are going to discuss possible solutions to these problems amongst ourselves first.

[b]Bottom line[/b]
It might sound like ESA is turning more strict and "less fun" from my answers. But that's not true at all. The planing will become much more strict sure, but for the actual stream, we have no intentions of making it any different (except for maybe no more Dark Souls, not because it wasn't the best run, but because of the conflicts with the chat).

Feel free to hurl any questions and we will try to answer them to the best of our abilities.

Edit: So many typos, and I'm sure there are dozens of grammatical errors still present.

Kotti

2013-08-05 08:24:47 am

Like most people have already said, ESA being a meet-up first and a charity marathon second really made it as incredibly fun to attend as it was. Having been to ESA'12 and AGDQ'13 before I was a bit worried if ESA '13 would be closer to AGDQ than before but I was very happy to notice that it wasn't the case at all. I didn't think any marathon could top last year's ESA (and I'm biased as that was my first marathon) but somehow this year managed to be even better.

Quote from Linkinito:

Dark Souls.

This should absolutely never happen again in any speedrunning marathon. It was evident that the runner didn't give a damn about the game and the whole run and I count this as a disrespect for the viewers and the charity. Thank god it was mercy killed and SGDQ did justice to this game. Also it was very disrespectful for the people who donated for the run to be online, and quitting when a viewer who came for PvP was coming. The run went completely into chaos and this shouldn't happen ever again. It might have been funny on-site, but trust me, the viewers were not amused by this. That's the kind of bad publicity that can ruin an entire marathon. And I hope the lesson have been learned now.

While I absolutely agree that Dark Souls should never happen again I will have to comment on some of the reasoning. First off, me not giving a damn may have been true at the start of the event but as the run got closer I found myself not having the time to sleep from practice (not necessarily my own practice) until someone directly told me to do so. While the thing with teaching multiple people segments of the run worked out better than I had expected I will never want to try it again as it is insanely stressful. The online part however was a big mistake considering the other elements of the run and considering DaS's less than perfect online system. Even that may have worked out better had my stress levels been anywhere close to reasonable which wasn't going to be possible due to the combination of co-op, online and the technical difficulties at the beginning of the run.

Still, a good amount of people apparently thought it was entertaining if for the wrong reasons so I refuse to consider it a complete disaster, only mostly. Probably the people who are more familiar with DaS runs as they at least got something out of the ordinary which is the reason why I wasn't interested in the SGDQ run in the slightest, that one was nothing I hadn't seen a million times over already. In any case, if anyone wants to blame someone for the run, I said I'd be taking the blame and I stand behind that.

Like most people have already said, ESA being a meet-up first and a charity marathon second really made it as incredibly fun to attend as it was. Having been to ESA'12 and AGDQ'13 before I was a bit worried if ESA '13 would be closer to AGDQ than before but I was very happy to notice that it wasn't the case at all. I didn't think any marathon could top last year's ESA (and I'm biased as that was my first marathon) but somehow this year managed to be even better.

[quote="Linkinito"][b]Dark Souls.[/b]

This should absolutely never happen again in any speedrunning marathon. It was evident that the runner didn't give a damn about the game and the whole run and I count this as a disrespect for the viewers and the charity. Thank god it was mercy killed and SGDQ did justice to this game. Also it was very disrespectful for the people who donated for the run to be online, and quitting when a viewer who came for PvP was coming. The run went completely into chaos and this shouldn't happen ever again. It might have been funny on-site, but trust me, the viewers were not amused by this. That's the kind of bad publicity that can ruin an entire marathon. And I hope the lesson have been learned now.[/quote]While I absolutely agree that Dark Souls should never happen again I will have to comment on some of the reasoning. First off, me not giving a damn may have been true at the start of the event but as the run got closer I found myself not having the time to sleep from practice (not necessarily my own practice) until someone directly told me to do so. While the thing with teaching multiple people segments of the run worked out better than I had expected I will never want to try it again as it is insanely stressful. The online part however was a big mistake considering the other elements of the run and considering DaS's less than perfect online system. Even that may have worked out better had my stress levels been anywhere close to reasonable which wasn't going to be possible due to the combination of co-op, online and the technical difficulties at the beginning of the run.

Still, a good amount of people apparently thought it was entertaining if for the wrong reasons so I refuse to consider it a complete disaster, only mostly. Probably the people who are more familiar with DaS runs as they at least got something out of the ordinary which is the reason why I wasn't interested in the SGDQ run in the slightest, that one was nothing I hadn't seen a million times over already. In any case, if anyone wants to blame someone for the run, I said I'd be taking the blame and I stand behind that.

garik16

2013-08-05 08:59:15 am

Quote from Linkinito:

Well, here's all my feedback for ESA 2013.

We can't deny that collecting $20,000 is quite great for a good cause and a second iteration for the marathon. As I seem to recall, nearly half of the donations came from the French community and restream. We were around 700 in average (peaking at 1,200) and 450 at least, at any given time. The original stream averaged 7,000 viewers (peaking at 14,000 during GTA SA). So 10% of the viewers actually gave nearly 50% of the donations. The french community really supported this event beyond all our expectations. Despite all the technical problems (it was Kanjo's first big restream), it went quite well overall.

I wouldn't feel bad about this - this is more about the French restream and MisterMV being freaking awesome than anything else. The Crystals4Life FF Marathon - a marathon of different scope but just as long = in March also had a vast majority of donations come from the french restream, despite a fraction of the viewers. What they do is amazing and is probably unique, and not something that should be expected of the others.

[quote="Linkinito"]Well, here's all my feedback for ESA 2013.

We can't deny that collecting $20,000 is quite great for a good cause and a second iteration for the marathon. As I seem to recall, nearly half of the donations came from the French community and restream. We were around 700 in average (peaking at 1,200) and 450 at least, at any given time. The original stream averaged 7,000 viewers (peaking at 14,000 during GTA SA). So 10% of the viewers actually gave nearly 50% of the donations. The french community really supported this event beyond all our expectations. Despite all the technical problems (it was Kanjo's first big restream), it went quite well overall.[/quote]

I wouldn't feel bad about this - this is more about the French restream and MisterMV being freaking awesome than anything else.  The Crystals4Life FF Marathon - a marathon of different scope but just as long = in March also had a vast majority of donations come from the french restream, despite a fraction of the viewers.  What they do is amazing and is probably unique, and not something that should be expected of the others.

Alko

2013-08-05 09:18:13 am

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Quote from garik16:

Quote from Linkinito:

Well, here's all my feedback for ESA 2013.

We can't deny that collecting $20,000 is quite great for a good cause and a second iteration for the marathon. As I seem to recall, nearly half of the donations came from the French community and restream. We were around 700 in average (peaking at 1,200) and 450 at least, at any given time. The original stream averaged 7,000 viewers (peaking at 14,000 during GTA SA). So 10% of the viewers actually gave nearly 50% of the donations. The french community really supported this event beyond all our expectations. Despite all the technical problems (it was Kanjo's first big restream), it went quite well overall.

I wouldn't feel bad about this - this is more about the French restream and MisterMV being freaking awesome than anything else. The Crystals4Life FF Marathon - a marathon of different scope but just as long = in March also had a vast majority of donations come from the french restream, despite a fraction of the viewers. What they do is amazing and is probably unique, and not something that should be expected of the others.

About one third of the 33,000 Canadian dollars came from France during C4L, unless I am very much mistaken (and iirc, that was only someone going through the donors and looking for obviously French names, so the true figure would be maybe even higher).

[quote="garik16"][quote="Linkinito"]Well, here's all my feedback for ESA 2013.

We can't deny that collecting $20,000 is quite great for a good cause and a second iteration for the marathon. As I seem to recall, nearly half of the donations came from the French community and restream. We were around 700 in average (peaking at 1,200) and 450 at least, at any given time. The original stream averaged 7,000 viewers (peaking at 14,000 during GTA SA). So 10% of the viewers actually gave nearly 50% of the donations. The french community really supported this event beyond all our expectations. Despite all the technical problems (it was Kanjo's first big restream), it went quite well overall.[/quote]

I wouldn't feel bad about this - this is more about the French restream and MisterMV being freaking awesome than anything else.  The Crystals4Life FF Marathon - a marathon of different scope but just as long = in March also had a vast majority of donations come from the french restream, despite a fraction of the viewers.  What they do is amazing and is probably unique, and not something that should be expected of the others.[/quote]
About one third of the 33,000 Canadian dollars came from France during C4L, unless I am very much mistaken (and iirc, that was only someone going through the donors and looking for obviously French names, so the true figure would be maybe even higher).

Yagamoth

2013-08-05 09:18:39 am

INTJ

My points are mainly commentary/audio related and probably highly subjective - It is NOT supposed to offend anyone and mostly my opinion, hoping it can get improved one way or another

Quote:

h, we did in some cases throw people a mic when they started doing commentary without being heard. But it was their own fault for not getting a mic when they wanted to commentate. I think all these audio issues will get a big re-think from MrLonghair, Niss3 and Charleon and we'll see what kind of solutions they can come up with.

While arguably true, people have other things in mind when preparing for their game to be ran. So in my opinion - never say it's the runners fault. Instead, have someone make sure they have everything set up.

Quote:

I like having mics on key people and the donation mic thing is good. However, this is a double edged sword. Viewers may miss some funny or insightful comments from the room and whatnot without audio covering the whole area. It’s quite annoying to see mouths move and people laugh or gasp when you can’t hear it. On the other hand, being able to talk about what I want while watching a run (ie, inane chatter) was very nice. I think you know which is more important though.

For me personally this was the biggest problem I had watching ESA. I can see how it's nice for people at the venue, but it was a big downside for me and a major reason why I wasn't particularly hooked to this marathon. Often someone would ask a question - no stream viewer could hear - and the runner simply answers "yeah, that's true". Less than ideal.
Microphones on key people is a good idea though. I have no idea how they did it at SGDQ, but I really liked how they set it up.

Further, the "chatting" in the room (which can't be heard by the stream viewer) may be nice as someone who likes to chat. But on one hand, it can be disrespectful towards the current runner and on the other hand can keep the commentators from commentating, because they hear other people talking.. Meanwhile on the stream it's dead silent.

Another thing I was missing was actually hearing the controller input. This probably sounds a bit weird, but - I love hearing button mashing of runners in various games. It tells a lot about the runners. Someone like Dragondarch or Siglemic have a highly focused and sharp sound to the inputs, while PJ or Feasel have more smooth inputs.

----------------------------------------------------------

Opinion:
The room visible on the stream was too big and unnecessarily empty most of the time. It should have more focus on the current runner and his/her commentators. This may be achieved by simply changing the camera angle. In any case it was weird to see the door in the background.

----------------------------------------------------------

On a different note: I like the chat interaction from the people at the venue and the Laptops didn't bother me - at least not the ones from the front row. (Note: I did not use the chat myself)

My points are mainly commentary/audio related and probably highly subjective - It is NOT supposed to offend anyone and mostly my opinion, hoping it can get improved one way or another

[quote]h, we did in some cases throw people a mic when they started doing commentary without being heard. [b]But it was their own fault for not getting a mic when they wanted to commentate[/b]. I think all these audio issues will get a big re-think from MrLonghair, Niss3 and Charleon and we'll see what kind of solutions they can come up with.[/quote]

While arguably true, people have other things in mind when preparing for their game to be ran. So in my opinion - never say it's the runners fault. Instead, have someone make sure they have everything set up.

[quote]I like having mics on key people and the donation mic thing is good. However, this is a double edged sword. Viewers may miss some funny or insightful comments from the room and whatnot without audio covering the whole area. It’s quite annoying to see mouths move and people laugh or gasp when you can’t hear it. On the other hand, being able to talk about what I want while watching a run (ie, inane chatter) was very nice. I think you know which is more important though.[/quote]

For me personally this was the biggest problem I had watching ESA. I can see how it's nice for people at the venue, but it was a big downside for me and a major reason why I wasn't particularly hooked to this marathon. Often someone would ask a question - no stream viewer could hear - and the runner simply answers "yeah, that's true". Less than ideal.
Microphones on key people is a good idea though. I have no idea how they did it at SGDQ, but I really liked how they set it up.

Further, the "chatting" in the room (which can't be heard by the stream viewer) may be nice as someone who likes to chat. But on one hand, it can be disrespectful towards the current runner and on the other hand can keep the commentators from commentating, because they hear other people talking.. Meanwhile on the stream it's dead silent.

Another thing I was missing was actually hearing the controller input. This probably sounds a bit weird, but - I love hearing button mashing of runners in various games. It tells a lot about the runners. Someone like Dragondarch or Siglemic have a highly focused and sharp sound to the inputs, while PJ or Feasel have more smooth inputs.

----------------------------------------------------------

Opinion:
The room visible on the stream was too big and unnecessarily empty most of the time. It should have more focus on the current runner and his/her commentators. This may be achieved by simply changing the camera angle. In any case it was weird to see the door in the background.

----------------------------------------------------------

On a different note: I like the chat interaction from the people at the venue and the Laptops didn't bother me - at least not the ones from the front row. (Note: I did not use the chat myself)

Svenne

2013-08-05 10:12:23 am

Smörgåsbord

I want to know how the viewership was at certain times etc, so I can determine what was true primetime for our marathon. I know that SDA had some way of finding out that stuff, so any info regarding that would be extremly helpful! Smiley

MrLonghair

Edit history:

MrLonghair: 2013-08-05 10:39:06 am

2013-08-05 10:15:15 am

Audio-guy. twitchtv:ohgoddamnit

Quote from Yagamoth:

For me personally this was the biggest problem I had watching ESA. I can see how it's nice for people at the venue, but it was a big downside for me and a major reason why I wasn't particularly hooked to this marathon. Often someone would ask a question - no stream viewer could hear - and the runner simply answers "yeah, that's true". Less than ideal.
Microphones on key people is a good idea though. I have no idea how they did it at SGDQ, but I really liked how they set it up.

SGDQ had mics pointed right at the audience, "we're" working on getting equipment to enable that for next ESA without risking the audience audio ever becoming so loud it booms speakers, hurts ears, or simply gets so loud that actual important audio cannot be heard.

No problem making the first row of the crowd have voices audible if they lean over into the couch area a little, but there's room for five in the "couch" after all; if someone knows about the game they should have a seat there.

Quote from Yagamoth:

Another thing I was missing was actually hearing the controller input. This probably sounds a bit weird, but - I love hearing button mashing of runners in various games. It tells a lot about the runners. Someone like Dragondarch or Siglemic have a highly focused and sharp sound to the inputs, while PJ or Feasel have more smooth inputs.

It was added after the first day, we decided to keep and improve it for the next time around.

Quote from Yagamoth:

It should have more focus on the current runner and his/her commentators.

It covered perfectly side to side, the most work that can be done for next time is lowering the tripod it stands on a little, it's a fixed focal length webcam. Making a note to try wider angle solutions, think of the 4:3 cam of SGDQ2013 but wide enough to cover the "couch" where the five can sit.

Update: A 90 degree wide view can be taken had with Logitech's new C930, but that would only make it seven degrees wider than the C920 used during ESA.

[quote="Yagamoth"]For me personally this was the biggest problem I had watching ESA. I can see how it's nice for people at the venue, but it was a big downside for me and a major reason why I wasn't particularly hooked to this marathon. Often someone would ask a question - no stream viewer could hear - and the runner simply answers "yeah, that's true". Less than ideal.
Microphones on key people is a good idea though. I have no idea how they did it at SGDQ, but I really liked how they set it up. [/quote]

SGDQ had mics pointed right at the audience, "we're" working on getting equipment to enable that for next ESA without risking the audience audio ever becoming so loud it booms speakers, hurts ears, or simply gets so loud that actual important audio cannot be heard.

No problem making the first row of the crowd have voices audible if they lean over into the couch area a little, but there's room for five in the "couch" after all; if someone knows about the game they should have a seat there.

[quote="Yagamoth"]Another thing I was missing was actually hearing the controller input. This probably sounds a bit weird, but - I love hearing button mashing of runners in various games. It tells a lot about the runners. Someone like Dragondarch or Siglemic have a highly focused and sharp sound to the inputs, while PJ or Feasel have more smooth inputs. [/quote]

It was added after the first day, we decided to keep and improve it for the next time around.

[quote="Yagamoth"]It should have more focus on the current runner and his/her commentators.[/quote]

It covered perfectly side to side, the most work that can be done for next time is lowering the tripod it stands on a little, it's a fixed focal length webcam. Making a note to try wider angle solutions, think of the 4:3 cam of SGDQ2013 but wide enough to cover the "couch" where the five can sit.

Update: A 90 degree wide view can be taken had with Logitech's new C930, but that would only make it seven degrees wider than the C920 used during ESA.

AdamAK

2013-08-05 10:37:47 am

Totally rad

Quote from Yagamoth:

Often someone would ask a question - no stream viewer could hear - and the runner simply answers "yeah, that's true". Less than ideal.
Microphones on key people is a good idea though. I have no idea how they did it at SGDQ, but I really liked how they set it up.

Further, the "chatting" in the room (which can't be heard by the stream viewer) may be nice as someone who likes to chat. But on one hand, it can be disrespectful towards the current runner and on the other hand can keep the commentators from commentating, because they hear other people talking.. Meanwhile on the stream it's dead silent.

Having a room mic is nice for applause or whatever, but it also means that people have to be quiet throughout the entire run, because it crowds out the runner. Not that people should be talking through a run non-stop anyway, but the ESA setup allows for this. If anyone had anything relevant to say, that person should have a mic. Alternatively, the runner could also repeat the question before answering it.

Quote:

Opinion:
The room visible on the stream was too big and unnecessarily empty most of the time. It should have more focus on the current runner and his/her commentators. This may be achieved by simply changing the camera angle. In any case it was weird to see the door in the background.

The camera angle was odd at the start of the marathon, but was improved a lot after that. It showed the entire audience along with the runners and couch commentators. Compare that to the PC setup for SGDQ, which made it seem like the entire marathon room was dead...
Besides, having the door in the view let us have a bit of fun with the stream as well. Link, Lunk and Lonk

Quote:

On a different note: I like the chat interaction from the people at the venue and the Laptops didn't bother me - at least not the ones from the front row. (Note: I did not use the chat myself)

It makes sense when people are relaying questions or comments to runners, but when it was just pokegrill giggling at chat 24/7 it got really annoying for both runners and run viewers. In general, it's pretty wasteful and very disrespectful to have the best spot for watching a run, and then only checking stream chat instead.

[quote="Yagamoth"]

Often someone would ask a question - no stream viewer could hear - and the runner simply answers "yeah, that's true". Less than ideal.
Microphones on key people is a good idea though. I have no idea how they did it at SGDQ, but I really liked how they set it up.

Further, the "chatting" in the room (which can't be heard by the stream viewer) may be nice as someone who likes to chat. But on one hand, it can be disrespectful towards the current runner and on the other hand can keep the commentators from commentating, because they hear other people talking.. Meanwhile on the stream it's dead silent.[/quote]

Having a room mic is nice for applause or whatever, but it also means that people have to be quiet throughout the entire run, because it crowds out the runner. Not that people should be talking through a run non-stop anyway, but the ESA setup allows for this. If anyone had anything relevant to say, that person should have a mic. Alternatively, the runner could also repeat the question before answering it.
 
[quote]
Opinion:
The room visible on the stream was too big and unnecessarily empty most of the time. It should have more focus on the current runner and his/her commentators. This may be achieved by simply changing the camera angle. In any case it was weird to see the door in the background. [/quote]

The camera angle was odd at the start of the marathon, but was improved a lot after that. It showed the entire audience along with the runners and couch commentators. Compare that to the PC setup for SGDQ, which made it seem like the entire marathon room was dead... 
Besides, having the door in the view let us have a bit of fun with the stream as well. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mVIBgrNUBpM&t=282]Link[/url], [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=STfJ4P9CuiE&t=1117]Lunk[/url] and [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NXqSjsctH3w&t=323]Lonk[/url]

[quote]
On a different note: I like the chat interaction from the people at the venue and the Laptops didn't bother me - at least not the ones from the front row. (Note: I did not use the chat myself)[/quote]
It makes sense when people are relaying questions or comments to runners, but when it was just pokegrill giggling at chat 24/7 it got really annoying for both runners and run viewers. In general, it's pretty wasteful and very disrespectful to have the best spot for watching a run, and then only checking stream chat instead.

Cool Matty

2013-08-05 10:44:34 am

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Quote from MrLonghair:

SGDQ had mics pointed right at the audience, "we're" working on getting equipment to enable that for next ESA without risking the audience audio ever becoming so loud it booms speakers, hurts ears, or simply gets so loud that actual important audio cannot be heard.

No problem making the first row of the crowd have voices audible if they lean over into the couch area a little, but there's room for five in the "couch" after all; if someone knows about the game they should have a seat there.

BTW, your mixer already has compressors on board so it should be as simple as sticking some mics in their direction. It's not terribly hard to balance the levels so that clapping doesn't destroy the ears with the compressors running.

MrLonghair

Edit history:

MrLonghair: 2013-08-05 10:53:41 am

2013-08-05 10:52:31 am

Audio-guy. twitchtv:ohgoddamnit

Quote from Cool Matty:

Quote from MrLonghair:

SGDQ had mics pointed right at the audience, "we're" working on getting equipment to enable that for next ESA without risking the audience audio ever becoming so loud it booms speakers, hurts ears, or simply gets so loud that actual important audio cannot be heard.

No problem making the first row of the crowd have voices audible if they lean over into the couch area a little, but there's room for five in the "couch" after all; if someone knows about the game they should have a seat there.

BTW, your mixer already has compressors on board so it should be as simple as sticking some mics in their direction. It's not terribly hard to balance the levels so that clapping doesn't destroy the ears with the compressors running.

Those compressors turned out to be a pile of muck best used for smoothening out instrument inputs and not-peaking vocals, I'm ready to say an external box for compression and limiting is essential.

(Well, judging how well they handled the runner&commenter mic audio. They flat out blew.)

[quote="Cool Matty"][quote="MrLonghair"]

SGDQ had mics pointed right at the audience, "we're" working on getting equipment to enable that for next ESA without risking the audience audio ever becoming so loud it booms speakers, hurts ears, or simply gets so loud that actual important audio cannot be heard.

No problem making the first row of the crowd have voices audible if they lean over into the couch area a little, but there's room for five in the "couch" after all; if someone knows about the game they should have a seat there.

[/quote]

BTW, your mixer already has compressors on board so it should be as simple as sticking some mics in their direction. It's not terribly hard to balance the levels so that clapping doesn't destroy the ears with the compressors running.[/quote]

Those compressors turned out to be a pile of muck best used for smoothening out instrument inputs and not-peaking vocals, I'm ready to say an external box for compression and limiting is essential.

(Well, judging how well they handled the runner&commenter mic audio. They flat out blew.)

garik16

2013-08-05 10:54:09 am

Quote from Linkinito:

Well, here's all my feedback for ESA 2013.

We can't deny that collecting $20,000 is quite great for a good cause and a second iteration for the marathon. As I seem to recall, nearly half of the donations came from the French community and restream. We were around 700 in average (peaking at 1,200) and 450 at least, at any given time. The original stream averaged 7,000 viewers (peaking at 14,000 during GTA SA). So 10% of the viewers actually gave nearly 50% of the donations. The french community really supported this event beyond all our expectations. Despite all the technical problems (it was Kanjo's first big restream), it went quite well overall.

But I'm gonna talk about the other 90% of the viewers who donated the other half. I'm pretty sure many people kept their money to donate the biggest part at SGDQ (and I won't hide it, many french people also did it). As they knew it would be the same charity organization (Doctors Without Borders), most of them donated a very small sum and did big donations at SGDQ. I think there were major factors that actually made people donate a small amount at ESA and a big amount at SGDQ:
- First of all is just that the 2 events were simply too close together. And while people showed their support for ESA by doing small donations (every dollar counts anyway!), they knew SGDQ was coming and then, kept their money for a little bit longer.

To add another comment, I think you need to remember something: the Marathons ARE NOT COMPETING WITH EACH OTHER. Especially in this case, where you're supporting the same charity - every dollar that a person held back from ESA to give to SGDQ went to the same exact place!

I get this is an issue where you have multiple marathons - due to the increasing # of community marathons - with different charities, but seriously guys, it's all going to a good cause. The ONLY time I worry about competing is where money is going to not a charity but to help people go to somewhere, such as the number of "get me to SGDQ/ESA/AGDQ" streams we've had in the past year. I'm not saying those may not be a net benefit to the charity in the long run - if a runners presence at a GDQ gets more money than they would've raised without to the point where the cost of flying them out there is worth it, that's fine. But in those cases, if you're taking money away from the marathon, it may not be a good thing.

but for charity marathons, stop it, you're not competing with one another.

----------------------------------------
Alko - thanks for the correction, you'd know better than I. Still an incredible performance by that community.

[quote="Linkinito"]Well, here's all my feedback for ESA 2013.

We can't deny that collecting $20,000 is quite great for a good cause and a second iteration for the marathon. As I seem to recall, nearly half of the donations came from the French community and restream. We were around 700 in average (peaking at 1,200) and 450 at least, at any given time. The original stream averaged 7,000 viewers (peaking at 14,000 during GTA SA). So 10% of the viewers actually gave nearly 50% of the donations. The french community really supported this event beyond all our expectations. Despite all the technical problems (it was Kanjo's first big restream), it went quite well overall.

But I'm gonna talk about the other 90% of the viewers who donated the other half. I'm pretty sure many people kept their money to donate the biggest part at SGDQ (and I won't hide it, many french people also did it). As they knew it would be the same charity organization (Doctors Without Borders), most of them donated a very small sum and did big donations at SGDQ. I think there were major factors that actually made people donate a small amount at ESA and a big amount at SGDQ:
- First of all is just that the 2 events were simply too close together. And while people showed their support for ESA by doing small donations (every dollar counts anyway!), they knew SGDQ was coming and then, kept their money for a little bit longer.
[/quote]

To add another comment, I think you need to remember something:  the Marathons ARE NOT COMPETING WITH EACH OTHER.  Especially in this case, where you're supporting the same charity - every dollar that a person held back from ESA to give to SGDQ went to the same exact place!

I get this is an issue where you have multiple marathons - due to the increasing # of community marathons - with different charities, but seriously guys, it's all going to a good cause.  The ONLY time I worry about competing is where money is going to not a charity but to help people go to somewhere, such as the number of "get me to SGDQ/ESA/AGDQ" streams we've had in the past year.  I'm not saying those may not be a net benefit to the charity in the long run - if a runners presence at a GDQ gets more money than they would've raised without to the point where the cost of flying them out there is worth it, that's fine.  But in those cases, if you're taking money away from the marathon, it may not be a good thing.

but for charity marathons, stop it, you're not competing with one another.

----------------------------------------
Alko - thanks for the correction, you'd know better than I.  Still an incredible performance by that community.

Cool Matty

2013-08-05 11:06:31 am

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Quote from MrLonghair:

Those compressors turned out to be a pile of muck best used for smoothening out instrument inputs and not-peaking vocals, I'm ready to say an external box for compression and limiting is essential.

(Well, judging how well they handled the runner&commenter mic audio. They flat out blew.)

Odd, ours worked fine. It's not a ton of control obviously, but since I only use them to keep the channels from peaking during extremely loud events, it's been fine for me. Our's is a Behringer mixer too, I'd expect Yamaha's to be of higher quality.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-08-05 11:12:21 am

2013-08-05 11:11:13 am

INTJ

Quote:

No problem making the first row of the crowd have voices audible if they lean over into the couch area a little, but there's room for five in the "couch" after all; if someone knows about the game they should have a seat there.

Well, true. But - Often some people that do know nothing about the game have really good questions, in the sense of: People that know about the run or even simply the game itself may take a lot of things for granted. But for people that are watching and have never played it, something as simple as executing things that are expected from a casual for a normal playthrough may not be obvious. Silly exaggerated example: I didn't realize Super Metroid had a run button.

Quote from AdamAK:

Having a room mic is nice for applause or whatever, but it also means that people have to be quiet throughout the entire run, because it crowds out the runner. Not that people should be talking through a run non-stop anyway, but the ESA setup allows for this. If anyone had anything relevant to say, that person should have a mic. Alternatively, the runner could also repeat the question before answering it.

For part of this I'd like to point to my previous paragraph, and for other:
- ESA setup allows for this, yes, I realize that after reading Flickys post and I can see the appeal to it. Which is why I mostly state my posts as an opinion as a single short-time viewer. I have no idea how it was to be there, or how it was to watch more or less the whole marathon Wink

Quote:

It makes sense when people are relaying questions or comments to runners, but when it was just pokegrill giggling at chat 24/7 it got really annoying for both runners and run viewers. In general, it's pretty wasteful and very disrespectful to have the best spot for watching a run, and then only checking stream chat instead.

100% agreed. I recommend restricting laptops to the runners or couch commentators. A good example of this was SGDQ MetaSigmas Secret of Evermore run where it turns out really nicely.

-----------------------

Also I apologize if I mentioned things that were fixed later into the marathon. I didn't get to watch all that much since I still had to work during that week.

[quote]No problem making the first row of the crowd have voices audible if they lean over into the couch area a little, but there's room for five in the "couch" after all; if someone knows about the game they should have a seat there.[/quote]

Well, true. But - Often some people that do know nothing about the game have really good questions, in the sense of: People that know about the run or even simply the game itself may take a lot of things for granted. But for people that are watching and have never played it, something as simple as executing things that are expected from a casual for a normal playthrough may not be obvious. Silly exaggerated example: I didn't realize Super Metroid had a run button.

[quote=AdamAK]Having a room mic is nice for applause or whatever, but it also means that people have to be quiet throughout the entire run, because it crowds out the runner. Not that people should be talking through a run non-stop anyway, but the ESA setup allows for this. If anyone had anything relevant to say, that person should have a mic. Alternatively, the runner could also repeat the question before answering it.[/quote]

For part of this I'd like to point to my previous paragraph, and for other:
- ESA setup allows for this, yes, I realize that after reading Flickys post and I can see the appeal to it. Which is why I mostly state my posts as an opinion as a single short-time viewer. I have no idea how it was to be there, or how it was to watch more or less the whole marathon ;)

[quote]It makes sense when people are relaying questions or comments to runners, but when it was just pokegrill giggling at chat 24/7 it got really annoying for both runners and run viewers. In general, it's pretty wasteful and very disrespectful to have the best spot for watching a run, and then only checking stream chat instead.[/quote]

100% agreed. I recommend restricting laptops to the runners or couch commentators. A good example of this was SGDQ MetaSigmas Secret of Evermore run where it turns out really nicely.

-----------------------

Also I apologize if I mentioned things that were fixed later into the marathon. I didn't get to watch all that much since I still had to work during that week.

The Sid

2013-08-05 06:36:11 pm

raising the stakes on being bad!

As many of my fellows have said the runs were great.

I do like all the little Easter eggs going on in the background, especial those I missed now I'll have to go check em all out on YouTube, most of which flicky pointed out on tssb.

From my experience twitch chat was not enjoyable, I was going to suggest an irc like SGDQ, because even there I found twitch chat to be less then pleasant despite the mods best efforts. From reading the posts I'm lead to understand you had an irc so I would say just try and make sure that it is know, kinda of like SDA's marathon page that had quake net with the channel set up right next to the marathon stream.
To be honest despite coming back a few times to watch 4 or 5 different runs, the only time I really enjoyed it was with chat hidden, which is what I should have done because I missed a lot of great runs by trying to interact with a wild chat, so guess it is partialy my fault for missing out on so many great runs Sad

Also from a newer viewer perspective, I have only ever seen YouTube videos of the past GDQ's and with this being my first marathon the lead in of Toki I think was a weak choice. It is an interesting game, but at the start of a marathon for me personally it failed to grab my attention and keep my interest. To be honest I was looking at the schedule to see what was next (which might have been my ADD) and it feels like a marathon shouldn't start that way.

I know every one has brought it up, but the schedule was an issue for me I missed a big chunk of some runs I wanted to watch do to the schedule being off which confused me and made it hard for me to convert the time properly, I think the suggestion of an auto converting time schedule would be a great improvement.

you may take all this with a grain of salt as I said I am a rather new convert from AGDQ 2013 YouTube videos, But I figured you might appreciate a viewers opinion as well as your fellow speed runners, marathon organizers, friends, tech experts, etc. just you regular stream viewer.
Also I am sorry if it seems I am trying to measure ESA with GDQ standards, I don't expect ESA=GDQ#3 I just want every one to enjoy the marathon to its fullest. Sorry for any "double posting", I just wanted to make sure any issues I had I made mention of just to help out future marathons.

As many of my fellows have said the runs were great.

I do like all the little Easter eggs going on in the background, especial those I missed now I'll have to go check em all out on YouTube, most of which flicky pointed out on tssb.

From my experience twitch chat was not enjoyable, I was going to suggest an irc like SGDQ, because even there I found twitch chat to be less then pleasant despite the mods best efforts. From reading the posts I'm lead to understand you had an irc so I would say just try and make sure that it is know, kinda of like SDA's marathon page that had quake net with the channel set up right next to the marathon stream.
To be honest despite coming back a few times to watch 4 or 5 different runs, the only time I really enjoyed it was with chat hidden, which is what I should have done because I missed a lot of great runs by trying to interact with a wild chat, so guess it is partialy my fault for missing out on so many great runs :(

Also from a newer viewer perspective, I have only ever seen YouTube videos of the past GDQ's and with this being my first marathon the lead in of Toki I think was a weak choice. It is an interesting game, but at the start of a marathon for me personally it failed to grab my attention and keep my interest. To be honest I was looking at the schedule to see what was next (which might have been my ADD) and it feels like a marathon shouldn't start that way.

I know every one has brought it up, but the schedule was an issue for me I missed a big chunk of some runs I wanted to watch do to the schedule being off which confused me and made it hard for me to convert the time properly, I think the suggestion of an auto converting time schedule would be a great improvement.

you may take all this with a grain of salt as I said I am a rather new convert from AGDQ 2013 YouTube videos, But I figured you might appreciate a viewers opinion as well as your fellow speed runners, marathon organizers, friends, tech experts, etc. just you regular stream viewer.
Also I am sorry if it seems I am trying to measure ESA with GDQ standards, I don't expect ESA=GDQ#3  I just want every one to enjoy the marathon to its fullest.     Sorry for any "double posting", I just wanted to make sure any issues I had I made mention of just to help out future marathons.

PJ

Edit history:

PJ: 2013-08-05 07:07:10 pm

2013-08-05 07:03:27 pm

Is PJ

Am I alone in thinking that the goal of this was to raise money for charity? Somewhere along the line it seemed to have changed into "this was just a meetup where we happened to raise money for charity while we were all here". Like, in everything I read during the organization/planning of this and during the TSSB hype episode it was supposed to be centered around the charity. Then apparently when it was done, the focus magically changed. Just trying to figure out what the real goal was.

I guess the reason I'm confused here is because all the background skits and inattention on stream kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. If I had known it was just a fun gathering instead of a charity event I probably would have watched with a different mindset.

As for the computers/mobiles on camera, I was not a big fan. Again, probably because I had the wrong impression of this event, but a lot of the runs had literally nobody paying attention to the run, despite having 6 others in the room. Everybody had their heads down talking to chat about irrelevant things, not "fielding questions" or "looking up notes for the runner". It just really bothered me to see an incredible run happening, and yet the two people on the couch were just staring straight down at the laptop pandering to the chat instead of actually watching.

That being said, I really enjoyed watching ESA! There were some really strong runs of games that don't get seen very often (F-Zero X and Maximo?! Yes please!).

Am I alone in thinking that the goal of this was to raise money for charity?  Somewhere along the line it seemed to have changed into "this was just a meetup where we happened to raise money for charity while we were all here".  Like, in everything I read during the organization/planning of this and during the TSSB hype episode it was supposed to be centered around the charity.  Then apparently when it was done, the focus magically changed.  Just trying to figure out what the real goal was.

I guess the reason I'm confused here is because all the background skits and inattention on stream kind of left a bad taste in my mouth.  If I had known it was just a fun gathering instead of a charity event I probably would have watched with a different mindset.

As for the computers/mobiles on camera, I was not a big fan.  Again, probably because I had the wrong impression of this event, but a lot of the runs had literally nobody paying attention to the run, despite having 6 others in the room.  Everybody had their heads down talking to chat about irrelevant things, not "fielding questions" or "looking up notes for the runner".  It just really bothered me to see an incredible run happening, and yet the two people on the couch were just staring straight down at the laptop pandering to the chat instead of actually watching.

That being said, I really enjoyed watching ESA!  There were some really strong runs of games that don't get seen very often (F-Zero X and Maximo?!  Yes please!).

mikwuyma

Edit history:

mikwuyma: 2013-08-05 10:18:47 pm

mikwuyma: 2013-08-05 09:07:12 pm

2013-08-05 09:06:08 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Okay I talked to Edenal so I'll post my thoughts.

Overall the event went really well, and viewer counts and the like were past my expectations.

The video: This was amazing! The layouts and 60 fps stream were very sexy. I talked to oasiz about having something similar for future GDQs.

The audio: Overall the audio was good, but I think there should be a room mic. It was weird hearing people say serious time and it sounded like there was no one talking in the room. I know you'll sometimes have to tell people to shut up, but hearing the noise I think creates excitement and hype.

Also, is there a reason why the audio was quiet at times? There were moments I could barely hear anything.

About the compressor, some people I talked to said the cause might actually be the wireless mics. Our mixer actually isn't as good as the ESA mixer, but it seems plenty capable of handling loud noise levels.

Laptop warriors and the like: Edenal agrees this shouldn't happen unless if they're actively looking at the chat to interact with the runner, like what happened during Bayonetta, or Evermore during SGDQ. When they're pandering to the chat it drains from the room and it makes chat worse.

The schedule: You guys did a good job of keeping on-pace with the schedule until the end. I'm not sure what happened there. I was impressed with how fast setup was, and you did a good job of keeping on pace with the schedule for the most part.

The starter: I asked this on TSSB, but why Toki as the starter? I feel like the starter should be a popularish game, but not too popular and something either fast-paced or with a decent amount of tricks. I felt like Toki was more of a drag, and this is coming from the guy who started the Toki craze.

The charity aspects: I'm seeing a lot of people saying that they liked that ESA was more of a meetup than about the charity. That's cool, I talked to Edenal about it and that's how he felt too. If you're going to make it different from a GDQ, that's one way to do it.

However, I have some questions for the long-term.

-I noticed some people saying the charity and donation incentives should be pushed more. I'd agree with that if the aim is to push the charity more, but if it's more meetup-centric, then wouldn't you want to not bother with that as much?

-I won't lie that a big part of the GDQs is to raise money for charity, but when did that suddenly become anti-fun or boring? I'm pretty sure bonesaw wasn't moaning in pain when teh urn dance raised enough money. And suddenly thinking of the Big the Cat race definitely didn't kill fun in the room when it was suggested. What about raising money for charity has to be separate from enjoyment? Because from what I've experienced at GDQs, it doesn't have to be.

Yes, there are compromises, you can't just swear all the time or get drunk on stream, but I don't see how compromising (and tbh, if you have to be drunk or swear a lot to be interesting, you probably aren't very interesting) means no fun. Also, there's a ton of meeting up and hanging out backstage at GDQs.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but that's the vibe I'm getting when people say they're happy that ESA is less about the charity. If I'm misinterpreting, then what is it about the meetup over charity aspect that is better?

These questions don't have to be answered right now, but I think these are important long-term questions about the future of the event, IMO.

Okay I talked to Edenal so I'll post my thoughts.

Overall the event went really well, and viewer counts and the like were past my expectations.

The video: This was amazing! The layouts and 60 fps stream were very sexy. I talked to oasiz about having something similar for future GDQs.

The audio: Overall the audio was good, but I think there should be a room mic. It was weird hearing people say serious time and it sounded like there was no one talking in the room. I know you'll sometimes have to tell people to shut up, but hearing the noise I think creates excitement and hype.

Also, is there a reason why the audio was quiet at times? There were moments I could barely hear anything.

About the compressor, some people I talked to said the cause might actually be the wireless mics. Our mixer actually isn't as good as the ESA mixer, but it seems plenty capable of handling loud noise levels.

Laptop warriors and the like: Edenal agrees this shouldn't happen unless if they're actively looking at the chat to interact with the runner, like what happened during Bayonetta, or Evermore during SGDQ. When they're pandering to the chat it drains from the room and it makes chat worse.

The schedule: You guys did a good job of keeping on-pace with the schedule until the end. I'm not sure what happened there. I was impressed with how fast setup was, and you did a good job of keeping on pace with the schedule for the most part.

The starter: I asked this on TSSB, but why Toki as the starter? I feel like the starter should be a popularish game, but not too popular and something either fast-paced or with a decent amount of tricks. I felt like Toki was more of a drag, and this is coming from the guy who started the Toki craze.

The charity aspects: I'm seeing a lot of people saying that they liked that ESA was more of a meetup than about the charity. That's cool, I talked to Edenal about it and that's how he felt too. If you're going to make it different from a GDQ, that's one way to do it.

However, I have some questions for the long-term.

-I noticed some people saying the charity and donation incentives should be pushed more. I'd agree with that if the aim is to push the charity more, but if it's more meetup-centric, then wouldn't you want to not bother with that as much?

-I won't lie that a big part of the GDQs is to raise money for charity, but when did that suddenly become anti-fun or boring? I'm pretty sure bonesaw wasn't moaning in pain when teh urn dance raised enough money. And suddenly thinking of the Big the Cat race definitely didn't kill fun in the room when it was suggested. What about raising money for charity has to be separate from enjoyment? Because from what I've experienced at GDQs, it doesn't have to be.

Yes, there are compromises, you can't just swear all the time or get drunk on stream, but I don't see how compromising (and tbh, if you have to be drunk or swear a lot to be interesting, you probably aren't very interesting) means no fun. Also, there's a ton of meeting up and hanging out backstage at GDQs.

Maybe I'm overreacting, but that's the vibe I'm getting when people say they're happy that ESA is less about the charity. If I'm misinterpreting, then what is it about the meetup over charity aspect that is better?

These questions don't have  to be answered right now, but I think these are important long-term questions about the future of the event, IMO.

Edenal

2013-08-06 12:51:08 am

Hockey enthusiast

Quote from PJ:

Am I alone in thinking that the goal of this was to raise money for charity? Somewhere along the line it seemed to have changed into "this was just a meetup where we happened to raise money for charity while we were all here". Like, in everything I read during the organization/planning of this and during the TSSB hype episode it was supposed to be centered around the charity. Then apparently when it was done, the focus magically changed. Just trying to figure out what the real goal was.

I think this TSSB-episode was a bit skewed when it comes to the focus of the event.

From the start (all the way back to ESA2012). I believe ESA was an attempt to replicate *GDQ in Europe. But as ESA2013 came around the internal focus shifted slightly, in the regard that the event had outgrown the organization and the members of the planing crew felt that the games were more important than the charity, so in a sense, the charity involuntarily became secondary. Can't stress enough that this wasn't by design!

Waaay later, I'd say during the final months before the event, it became apparent that most attendees seemed to care more about the games than the charity-aspect. We really struggled to find prizes and the handful of people trying to make the event happen were swamped with other tasks or were unavailable due to complications in life. I would say that no more than 5 people did 95% of the pre-event work.

When we came around to promote the event, it was promoted as a charity event. But again, the charity took a backseat on both the website and twitch page. And even Twitter I guess? I'm not a very frequent user so can't say for sure. Again, the charity taking a backseat on the website is my "fault", because I put all my time into promoting the games and runners. Coming to think of it, in one way or another most shortcoming of ESA can be traced back to me in some way.

To summarize: The very small ESA-organization could not keep up. Games, runners and tech got most focus because that's what close to the hearts for the organizers. We could not keep up on-site either and the event evolved into an organism with it's own life reflecting the attendants.
"Meetup first, charity second" is kind of a rationalization. Not our outspoken goal with the event, but what it turned into.

So PJ, I'd say you are right on the mark here. Observant as always.

[quote="PJ"]Am I alone in thinking that the goal of this was to raise money for charity?  Somewhere along the line it seemed to have changed into "this was just a meetup where we happened to raise money for charity while we were all here".  Like, in everything I read during the organization/planning of this and during the TSSB hype episode it was supposed to be centered around the charity.  Then apparently when it was done, the focus magically changed.  Just trying to figure out what the real goal was.[/quote]

I think this TSSB-episode was a bit skewed when it comes to the focus of the event.

From the start (all the way back to ESA2012). I believe ESA was an attempt to replicate *GDQ in Europe. But as ESA2013 came around the internal focus shifted slightly, in the regard that the event had outgrown the organization and the members of the planing crew felt that the games were more important than the charity, so in a sense, the charity [u]involuntarily[/u] became secondary. Can't stress enough that this wasn't by design!

Waaay later, I'd say during the final months before the event, it became apparent that most attendees seemed to care more about the games than the charity-aspect. We really struggled to find prizes and the handful of people trying to make the event happen were swamped with other tasks or were unavailable due to complications in life. I would say that no more than 5 people did 95% of the pre-event work.

When we came around to promote the event, it was promoted as a charity event. But again, the charity took a backseat on both the website and twitch page. And even Twitter I guess? I'm not a very frequent user so can't say for sure. Again, the charity taking a backseat on the website is my "fault", because I put all my time into promoting the games and runners. Coming to think of it, in one way or another most shortcoming of ESA can be traced back to me in some way.

To summarize: The very small ESA-organization could not keep up. Games, runners and tech got most focus because that's what close to the hearts for the organizers. We could not keep up on-site either and the event evolved into an organism with it's own life reflecting the attendants. 
"Meetup first, charity second" is kind of a rationalization. Not our outspoken goal with the event, but what it turned into.

So PJ, I'd say you are right on the mark here. Observant as always.

PJ

2013-08-06 01:10:37 am

Is PJ

Thanks for the clarification. ^_^

Edenal

Edit history:

Edenal: 2013-08-06 02:39:27 am

Edenal: 2013-08-06 02:38:21 am

2013-08-06 02:01:34 am

Hockey enthusiast

Quote from mikwuyma:

The audio: Overall the audio was good, but I think there should be a room mic. It was weird hearing people say serious time and it sounded like there was no one talking in the room. I know you'll sometimes have to tell people to shut up, but hearing the noise I think creates excitement and hype.

Also, is there a reason why the audio was quiet at times? There were moments I could barely hear anything.

About the compressor, some people I talked to said the cause might actually be the wireless mics. Our mixer actually isn't as good as the ESA mixer, but it seems plenty capable of handling loud noise levels.

I'll leave this for now. I know that Longhair / Nisse / Charleon are already discussion improvements.

Quote from mikwuyma:

Laptop warriors and the like: Edenal agrees this shouldn't happen unless if they're actively looking at the chat to interact with the runner, like what happened during Bayonetta, or Evermore during SGDQ. When they're pandering to the chat it drains from the room and it makes chat worse.

I hope a few simple rules how to behave in the stream room is needed. Also we plan to put up tables on the other side of the room where people can sit with their laptops for the future. More tables!

Quote from mikwuyma:

The schedule: You guys did a good job of keeping on-pace with the schedule until the end. I'm not sure what happened there. I was impressed with how fast setup was, and you did a good job of keeping on pace with the schedule for the most part.

We lost time on people not showing up for their runs.
Audio issues with the PC (at least the same issue won't happen again).
Console issues. Only 1 PAL NES with a semi-bad connector.
The Internet being cut from the stream PC.
Only two/three stream crashes during the first day! This is probably what I'm most proud of!
Needing to go get a LED-TV.
DVD-upscaler being set to component output only by mistake. = No image what so ever.
A runner getting last minute IRL issues so we had to replace his games.
Just a few games going over schedule due to short estimates / donation incentives added when there wasn't really time.
Games randomly softlocking.

It could have been worse Smiley

Quote from mikwuyma:

The starter: I asked this on TSSB, but why Toki as the starter? I feel like the starter should be a popularish game, but not too popular and something either fast-paced or with a decent amount of tricks. I felt like Toki was more of a drag, and this is coming from the guy who started the Toki craze.

We wanted to start with a race. And I think we felt that the length of Toki was good as a starter. I don't have a good answer. Gut-feeling?
I don't think it turned out being a drag. Maybe the popularity of AdamAK (not to take anything away from Shrimp!) helped.

Quote from mikwuyma:

The charity aspects: I'm seeing a lot of people saying that they liked that ESA was more of a meetup than about the charity. That's cool, I talked to Edenal about it and that's how he felt too. If you're going to make it different from a GDQ, that's one way to do it.

I think I answered that above as a reply to PJ's post.

Quote from mikwuyma:

-I noticed some people saying the charity and donation incentives should be pushed more. I'd agree with that if the aim is to push the charity more, but if it's more meetup-centric, then wouldn't you want to not bother with that as much?

A goal for us next year is to increase the amount of prizes, donation incentives and generally the interaction with the chat / viewers. This is a way of promoting the charity aspect, without promoting the charity organization specifically. The mentally would be something like:
"Oh hey, we play games and have fun! If you donate a few bucks towards a cool donation incentive, blindfolded challenge or to kill those nasty animals in Super Metroid you are entered into a drawing of some cool prizes! And btw, all the money goes to charity!"

It's unfortunately not cheap attending a marathon / meet-up. And the stream is without a doubt the big reason why a majority of the attendants come. I would go so far as saying, without the marathon stream the attendance would likely drop to ~20 people next year.

Quote from mikwuyma:

-I won't lie that a big part of the GDQs is to raise money for charity, but when did that suddenly become anti-fun or boring? I'm pretty sure bonesaw wasn't moaning in pain when teh urn dance raised enough money. And suddenly thinking of the Big the Cat race definitely didn't kill fun in the room when it was suggested. What about raising money for charity has to be separate from enjoyment? Because from what I've experienced at GDQs, it doesn't have to be.

Yes, there are compromises, you can't just swear all the time or get drunk on stream, but I don't see how compromising (and tbh, if you have to be drunk or swear a lot to be interesting, you probably aren't very interesting) means no fun. Also, there's a ton of meeting up and hanging out backstage at GDQs.

Quote from mikwuyma:

Maybe I'm overreacting, but that's the vibe I'm getting when people say they're happy that ESA is less about the charity. If I'm misinterpreting, then what is it about the meetup over charity aspect that is better?

See my reply to PJ's post. And event the reply above this quote.

The whole meet-up before charity has become so skewed since the end of SGDQ. The events are not that different. Definitely not as much as these posts makes them out to be.

[quote="mikwuyma"]
The audio: Overall the audio was good, but I think there should be a room mic. It was weird hearing people say serious time and it sounded like there was no one talking in the room. I know you'll sometimes have to tell people to shut up, but hearing the noise I think creates excitement and hype.

Also, is there a reason why the audio was quiet at times? There were moments I could barely hear anything.

About the compressor, some people I talked to said the cause might actually be the wireless mics. Our mixer actually isn't as good as the ESA mixer, but it seems plenty capable of handling loud noise levels.[/quote]

I'll leave this for now. I know that Longhair / Nisse / Charleon are already discussion improvements.

[quote="mikwuyma"]
Laptop warriors and the like: Edenal agrees this shouldn't happen unless if they're actively looking at the chat to interact with the runner, like what happened during Bayonetta, or Evermore during SGDQ. When they're pandering to the chat it drains from the room and it makes chat worse.[/quote]

I hope a few simple rules how to behave in the stream room is needed. Also we plan to put up tables on the other side of the room where people can sit with their laptops for the future. More tables!

[quote="mikwuyma"]
The schedule: You guys did a good job of keeping on-pace with the schedule until the end. I'm not sure what happened there. I was impressed with how fast setup was, and you did a good job of keeping on pace with the schedule for the most part.[/quote]

We lost time on people not showing up for their runs. 
Audio issues with the PC (at least the same issue won't happen again).
Console issues. Only 1 PAL NES with a semi-bad connector. 
The Internet being cut from the stream PC.
Only two/three stream crashes during the first day! This is probably what I'm most proud of!
Needing to go get a LED-TV.
DVD-upscaler being set to component output only by mistake. = No image what so ever.
A runner getting last minute IRL issues so we had to replace his games.
Just a few games going over schedule due to short estimates / donation incentives added when there wasn't really time.
Games randomly softlocking.

It could have been worse :)

[quote="mikwuyma"]
The starter: I asked this on TSSB, but why Toki as the starter? I feel like the starter should be a popularish game, but not too popular and something either fast-paced or with a decent amount of tricks. I felt like Toki was more of a drag, and this is coming from the guy who started the Toki craze. [/quote]

We wanted to start with a race. And I think we felt that the length of Toki was good as a starter. I don't have a good answer. Gut-feeling? 
I don't think it turned out being a drag. Maybe the popularity of AdamAK (not to take anything away from Shrimp!) helped.

[quote="mikwuyma"]
The charity aspects: I'm seeing a lot of people saying that they liked that ESA was more of a meetup than about the charity. That's cool, I talked to Edenal about it and that's how he felt too. If you're going to make it different from a GDQ, that's one way to do it.[/quote]

I think I answered that above as a reply to PJ's post.

[quote="mikwuyma"]
-I noticed some people saying the charity and donation incentives should be pushed more. I'd agree with that if the aim is to push the charity more, but if it's more meetup-centric, then wouldn't you want to not bother with that as much? [/quote]

A goal for us next year is to increase the amount of prizes, donation incentives and generally the interaction with the chat / viewers. This is a way of promoting the charity aspect, without promoting the charity organization specifically. The mentally would be something like:
"Oh hey, we play games and have fun! If you donate a few bucks towards a cool donation incentive, blindfolded challenge or to kill those nasty animals in Super Metroid you are entered into a drawing of some cool prizes! [size="8"]And btw, all the money goes to charity![/size]"

It's unfortunately not cheap attending a marathon / meet-up. And the stream is without a doubt the big reason why a majority of the attendants come. I would go so far as saying, without the marathon stream the attendance would likely drop to ~20 people next year.

[quote="mikwuyma"]
-I won't lie that a big part of the GDQs is to raise money for charity, but when did that suddenly become anti-fun or boring? I'm pretty sure bonesaw wasn't moaning in pain when teh urn dance raised enough money. And suddenly thinking of the Big the Cat race definitely didn't kill fun in the room when it was suggested. What about raising money for charity has to be separate from enjoyment? Because from what I've experienced at GDQs, it doesn't have to be.

Yes, there are compromises, you can't just swear all the time or get drunk on stream, but I don't see how compromising (and tbh, if you have to be drunk or swear a lot to be interesting, you probably aren't very interesting) means no fun. Also, there's a ton of meeting up and hanging out backstage at GDQs.[/quote]

[quote="mikwuyma"]
Maybe I'm overreacting, but that's the vibe I'm getting when people say they're happy that ESA is less about the charity. If I'm misinterpreting, then what is it about the meetup over charity aspect that is better? [/quote]

See my reply to PJ's post. And event the reply above this quote.

The whole meet-up before charity has become so skewed since the end of SGDQ. The events are not that different. Definitely not as much as these posts makes them out to be.