EarthBound

2010-12-28 07:12:25 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/1277564352

The RTA of this game on Nico nico is incredible... Done in 1:48:52!!!!!! using timing from character select screen, to the "To Be Continued" screen. So, by SDA timing, without all of that, the run would be about 10-15 min shorter than his. I wish I knew Japanese, since I don't know half the stuff he buys, and to top it all off, he also goes out of bounds at least 6 times in the run!!!

I wanted to do a speedrun of this game using the latest glitches, but now that I've seen this, I know nobody here would want me to do a segmented run without doing the same thing this guy does, which is insane, even in a segmented run. I know I can replicate Onett - Threed route, but after that I wish I knew what he bought and half the stuff he does. I understand the whole duplicating file and using that file to go Oob, dying, and then opening the main file to start in Oob, but I can't follow anything else.

A lot of planning would have to go into this run, so it would be nice if this thread could come alive again. No way could I plan a run like this on my own... As for the above video... ENJOY!!!!

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/1277564352

The RTA of this game on Nico nico is incredible... [b]Done in 1:48:52!!!!!![/b] using timing from character select screen, to the "To Be Continued" screen. So, by SDA timing, without all of that, the run would be about 10-15 min shorter than his. I wish I knew Japanese, since I don't know half the stuff he buys, and to top it all off, he also goes out of bounds at least 6 times in the run!!!

I wanted to do a speedrun of this game using the latest glitches, but now that I've seen this, I know nobody here would want me to do a segmented run without doing the same thing this guy does, which is insane, even in a segmented run. I know I can replicate Onett - Threed route, but after that I wish I knew what he bought and half the stuff he does. I understand the whole duplicating file and using that file to go Oob, dying, and then opening the main file to start in Oob, but I can't follow anything else.

A lot of planning would have to go into this run, so it would be nice if this thread could come alive again. No way could I plan a run like this on my own... As for the above video... ENJOY!!!!

Raiker Z

2010-12-28 07:49:16 pm

Wish I could read japanese, I can't even figure out how to watch videos on the site Tongue

do I need to register? cuz every other thing I click seems to lead me to what I assume is a logon screen.

As for figuring out the items, try to go to the stores he does and replicate what item he goes to, I'm sure you could figure it out, sorry I can't contribute much more, I like the mother series, but I haven't played them much *and the first one at all if I'm remembering right*

Mickey_Mage

2010-12-28 08:03:42 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Yeah I know people probably can't watch it. The register button is on that page. If that doesn't help, you can Google translate it and try to make an account on the site.

Rakuen

2010-12-28 08:09:59 pm

Weegee Time

I imagine the item locations are the same between the two versions, but are the prices as well? If so, that's another way to figure out the items.

MUGG

2010-12-28 08:47:41 pm

TASer

That run's author is pirohiko, who also made tool-assisted speedruns of Earthbound.
1h 10m 0s (walk through cliffs, walk through walls)
30m 42s (tent glitch, debug menu)

The latter of these categories is pretty much TAS-only and also controversial (is using a debug menu ok?), so that's out of the question I guess.
What you want is to reach Lumine Hall where you need to use the entrance to Lost Underworld.
And you need to beat Ness' Nightmare in Magicant.
Doing both sets flags that enable you to use the Phase Distorter and battle Gyigas.

Game map (10 MB!)

Walk through walls explanations

The TAS walks through the cliffs in Twoson to skip directly to Threed (this requires a Skip Sandwich, which increases your speed for 10 seconds). This skip is probably TAS-only, so you'll have to do Twoson first. Well, I didn't watch pirohiko's RTA, but maybe you can just use that run's strategies.

Maybe I was just restating the obvious, maybe I was helpful. Anyway, I wish good luck to anyone attempting to make a new run. I'm afraid I can't really help with strategies.

That run's author is pirohiko, who also made tool-assisted speedruns of Earthbound. 
[url=http://tasvideos.org/1297M.html]1h 10m 0s[/url] (walk through cliffs, walk through walls)
[url=http://tasvideos.org/1627M.html]30m 42s[/url] (tent glitch, debug menu)

The latter of these categories is pretty much TAS-only and also controversial (is using a debug menu ok?), so that's out of the question I guess.
What you want is to reach Lumine Hall where you need to use the entrance to Lost Underworld.
And you need to beat Ness' Nightmare in Magicant.
Doing both sets flags that enable you to use the Phase Distorter and battle Gyigas.

[url=http://starmen.net/mother2/maps/fullmap.png]Game map[/url] (10 MB!)

[url=http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=175106#175106]Walk through walls explanations[/url]

The TAS walks through the cliffs in Twoson to skip directly to Threed (this requires a Skip Sandwich, which increases your speed for 10 seconds). This skip is probably TAS-only, so you'll have to do Twoson first. Well, I didn't watch pirohiko's RTA, but maybe you can just use that run's strategies.

Maybe I was just restating the obvious, maybe I was helpful. Anyway, I wish good luck to anyone attempting to make a new run. I'm afraid I can't really help with strategies.

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2010-12-28 09:57:55 pm

Mickey_Mage: 2010-12-28 09:57:37 pm

2010-12-28 09:56:31 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Yea, I knew about all the triggers and flags. My current route after the Franklin Badge is going from Threed to Lumine Hall to get the Rabbit's Foot and beat Electro Spectre (battle is random so how long it takes depends on a lot); get the Sea Pendant in Lost Underworld and die to go back to Threed; Oob to Magicant and go from there... I did not know you could Oob in the Past (did not know that menu glitch), but that is definitely a nice thing to have.

Rakuen: Yeah, the prices are the same, but some items he buys so quickly I can't follow where the cursor goes. I guess I can just go by the amount of money lost, though.

Sillygramcracker

2010-12-29 01:37:13 pm

THIS RUN CONTAINS SECRET WORLDS

I found this while googling a method for watching nicovideos without having to register. http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html
You can simply copy/paste the URL of the video page linked above into this redirector, and a video player comes up that displays the video from the URL you entered.

cyg

2010-12-29 03:38:33 pm

guys guys just click here http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/the_nicovideo_speedrun_index83.html#the_nicovideo_speedrun_index83

registering is so easy and you'll be glad you did

ShinerCCC

2011-01-11 11:36:15 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

A lot of people in the chat during the marathon were requesting Earthbound.

Someone needs to get this glitch run happening. I'd like to learn how once I get my other speedruns done with...

Mickey_Mage

2012-02-22 05:18:07 am

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

With the success of the glitched run this year, if I'm going to do a full game run next year, a little planning might need to happen. I can study the run on the site but, since I'll need to level up a bit more for survival, it might be hard to use every strat on there. I really just wanted to post to bring that up, though. I'll study the speedrun on here, first, and then I'll post again if the route I get from that doesn't work very well for RTA purposes.

MUGG

Edit history:

MUGG: 2012-02-22 06:34:41 am

2012-02-22 06:32:20 am

TASer

You might want to contact skateman222
He actually got the glitchless single-segment WR for the game (5 hours 37 minutes), I think.
http://www.justin.tv/skateman222/b/305528662

__sdfg

2012-02-22 07:33:39 am

D:

About that....

I don't know if there is agreement on what "full game" means. I'm sure everyone agrees the marathon route could be used to explain "major skips" to new visitors to the site, but there is a grey area between that and not glitching at all. I haven't really played the game in the past three years (other than a half-hour session that ended when I lost power, which I guess had the beneficial effect of forcing me to rearrange my electronics so my SNES could be on a UPS, but still terrified me), so I may be missing definitions and I may also be giving definitions that would have the same route anyway, but here are some ideas:

All sanctuaries
- I suspect the stair glitch would still see quite a bit of use.
- Am I allowed to vote against entries this early in the list? I hope so.
No stair-glitching
- Would still be able to run through walls to skip PRV early on, if it turns out to be faster to do so. I'm not sure what happens with Carpainter and such if Paula is already in your party, though.
No out-of-bounds (strict-ish)
- This would exclude skipping PRV, since it requires traversing an area that the player can't reach without glitching through what's supposed to be a wall. I'm not sure if that qualifies as OoB or not by the site's usual definition, but OoB was the best way I could find to describe it other than, "You can't use the stair glitch and you also can't walk from Twoson to Threed without doing PRV."
- Could still run through walls in PRV and Lilliput Steps.
No glitching at all
- My segmented run is in an awful lot of trouble. XD
- Does SDA have categories like this anymore?

I vote for the second one, personally (no stair-glitching).

I have not watched skateman222's run. If it is the one in the verification queue, I would be open to using it to set the definition. I would also be fine with setting a definition irrespective of what happens in that run, but not holding the definition against the run since it was submitted before the definition was established.

About that....

I don't know if there is agreement on what "full game" means.  I'm sure everyone agrees the marathon route could be used to explain "major skips" to new visitors to the site, but there is a grey area between that and not glitching at all.  I haven't really played the game in the past three years (other than a half-hour session that ended when I lost power, which I guess had the beneficial effect of forcing me to rearrange my electronics so my SNES could be on a UPS, but still terrified me), so I may be missing definitions and I may also be giving definitions that would have the same route anyway, but here are some ideas:
[list]
[*][b]All sanctuaries[/b]
[list]
[*]I suspect the stair glitch would still see quite a bit of use.
[*]Am I allowed to vote against entries this early in the list?  I hope so.
[/list]

[*][b]No stair-glitching[/b]
[list]
[*]Would still be able to run through walls to skip PRV early on, if it turns out to be faster to do so.  I'm not sure what happens with Carpainter and such if Paula is already in your party, though.
[/list]

[*][b]No out-of-bounds (strict-ish)[/b]
[list]
[*]This would exclude skipping PRV, since it requires traversing an area that the player can't reach without glitching through what's supposed to be a wall.  I'm not sure if that qualifies as OoB or not by the site's usual definition, but OoB was the best way I could find to describe it other than, "You can't use the stair glitch and you also can't walk from Twoson to Threed without doing PRV."
[*]Could still run through walls in PRV and Lilliput Steps.
[/list]

[*][b]No glitching at all[/b]
[list]
[*]My segmented run is in an awful lot of trouble. XD
[*]Does SDA have categories like this anymore?
[/list]
[/list]
I vote for the second one, personally (no stair-glitching).

I have not watched skateman222's run.  If it is the one in the verification queue, I would be open to using it to set the definition.  I would also be fine with setting a definition irrespective of what happens in that run, but not holding the definition against the run since it was submitted before the definition was established.

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2012-02-22 04:53:38 pm

2012-02-22 04:52:43 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

I haven't watched his run, yet, but the problem I see with stairs glitch (unless Skateman does use it) is that if you try to do something too early it can mess with flag triggers. I don't see the point in having more than two categories for this game anyway, as only minor skips are used in a full game (i.e. wall skips). I talked with mike uyama about this, and wall skips like the ones in your run are allowed in a RTA full game; because the parts skipped are too minor. He said that I should do no stair glitch in the RTA at the marathon next year also.

@mugg: Well, at least I have a time to go off of for full game. Five and a half hours does sound about what we predicted a few years ago. So, I can expect some leeway for the marathon run and have the estimate maybe a little over 6 hours. We'll see after i watch skateman's run.

__sdfg

2012-02-22 11:07:27 pm

D:

I agree on only having two categories. I'm not sure why I bothered asking whether stair-glitching would be allowed in both. I am curious what the wall glitches in Twoson would do to a run that doesn't also use the stair glitch.

I watched the first couple hours of skateman222's run and I don't think it uses any glitches at all.

Mickey_Mage

2012-02-23 05:38:13 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Well, let's put it this way. You can skip to Threed early if you want but, it's not advised even in a speedrun because pretty much anything can destroy you there. I don't think you're at the level to beat some enemies quickly enough (remember, paula will be level 1 when you get her, and level 9 after you beat the Threed Tent). I'm not sure what flags are set when you do all of the plot in Threed but, you can go back to Twoson after you kill Belch. Really I only foresee the level problem being there. I can test it out anyway.

skateman222

2012-02-24 06:48:28 pm

Hey guys, skateman222 here.

Very interesting that Earthbound is being discussed recently for next year's marathon for a full run. Really excited to hear about this! Yes, to all people wondering, my run is glitchless and I never hit the reset button on my console. I got quite lucky because I usually have to use a couple resets due to the huge luck factor that is involved with this run. I do use a neat deathwarp to save a lot of time and use a slightly altered route than any other run out there that I believe is the fastest way of completing the game glitchless.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I'd love to discuss possible route improvements/changes because I believe my run could be improved ever so slightly, but I'd have to get amazing luck again, which would take many attempts.

__sdfg

2012-02-26 02:13:55 pm

D:

Hey, skateman222. I finished watching your run. I like the route for the last five Sanctuaries. My segmented run definitely under-utilized running and I unfortunately didn't realize it until the second-to-last segment, when it was too late to fix it. I might go back and give your run a more detailed viewing later this week (i.e., while I'm not also trying to get work done). I'll let you know if I have questions or suggestions for the route.

I know you had really good luck at some key points in the run (Frank, Diamond Dog), but I think you are going to want to record another run to smooth out the mistakes even if this one is accepted. Trust me. Sad

skateman222

2012-02-27 05:09:58 am

Yea, whether it gets accepted or not, I will still be doing some attempts in the summer, maybe as early as in the next month or two if Mickey_Mage and I improve the route. Of course, your suggestions would also be very helpful and I'm sure you can come up with better strategies yourself.

The one thing that confuses me for this run, however, is the Skip Sandwich wall glitches that can be performed. Sure, they save quite some time if you get them done, but I don't know if I really should be using them, considering I'd like to make this a glitchless run. I figured that since the sandwich glitch and the stair glitch are performed in the glitched OOB run, I shouldn't be using them in a SS. So, personally, I don't really like using the sandwich glitch, but if it comes to the point where I have to learn it consistently, I guess I have no choice. :l

__sdfg

2012-02-27 06:57:55 pm

D:

Based on the conversation I had with Mickey_Mage in this thread a few days ago (and I guess another conversation he had with Mike), I don't think you'll have the option of doing a completely glitchless run on principle. It doesn't seem like there'll be a separate SDA category for that. You may still decide it's not worthwhile trying to do the wall glitches in your run, however. Going through the walls in Peaceful Rest Valley and Lilliput Steps only saves a couple minutes. I have enough trouble doing them that if I were verifying, I don't think I'd reject a run that ignored them unless it had some really terrible encounter luck in the parts that the glitches would have skipped. I suck at video games, though. :|

Getting into Threed early may not matter. Mickey_Mage's point about the party being under-leveled if you do that skip is very valid. If it is feasible to play at that low a level in a single-segment run, I have no idea if it would save time.

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2012-02-28 07:36:41 pm

Mickey_Mage: 2012-02-28 07:16:04 pm

2012-02-28 07:15:06 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Well, I'm making the Lilliput cave wall skip mandatory for future runs, only because it's the easiest of the two (it doesn't need any sandwiches to get through, and is a very basic skip, even for a beginner). If someone at least attempts the wall skip in Peaceful Rest Valley (once or twice, space provided, of course), then that's ok if it's not executed. Segmented runs should always attempt both, as well as the new wall skip that I found in the very beginning of PRV that skips a very encounter heavy area).

This game just doesn't make sense for more than two categories right now (any% and low%) only because those two wall skips, like _sdfg said, only saves a couple of minutes. The glitched run skips 7 sanctuary places. While a few minutes may not seem like a lot, I have noticed that if you don't do those skips, encounters getting to that same point can be worse. Granted, in skateman's route right now, he gets the cup of lifenoodles in PRV but, that might or might not stay in the route (mondo mole is a pain).

The only way I can see there being a third category, is if the tent glitch can ever be done on console, for a speedrun (either the debug glitch in Onett or Threed). That would be considered low% extreme glitches, or something.

Well, I'm making the Lilliput cave wall skip mandatory for future runs, only because it's the easiest of the two (it doesn't need any sandwiches to get through, and is a very basic skip, even for a beginner). If someone at least attempts the wall skip in Peaceful Rest Valley (once or twice, space provided, of course), then that's ok if it's not executed. Segmented runs should always attempt both, as well as the new wall skip that I found in the very beginning of PRV that skips a very encounter heavy area).

This game just doesn't make sense for more than two categories right now (any% and low%) only because those two wall skips, like _sdfg said, only saves a couple of minutes. The glitched run skips 7 sanctuary places. While a few minutes may not seem like a lot, I have noticed that if you don't do those skips, encounters getting to that same point can be worse. Granted, in skateman's route right now, he gets the cup of lifenoodles in PRV but, that might or might not stay in the route (mondo mole is a pain).

The only way I can see there being a third category, is if the tent glitch can ever be done on console, for a speedrun (either the debug glitch in Onett or Threed). That would be considered low% extreme glitches, or something.

skateman222

2012-02-28 07:38:17 pm

Alright, if the skip sandwich glitch is allowed, I'll definitely have to see if I can get them down with practice. If days of practice doesn't help me, I'll just walk it out. Like you said, it's really only a couple of minutes, but I guess minutes add up in a run this long. I estimate with amazing luck and a perfect route, just maybe sub 5:25 is possible, but I don't think it could get any lower than that on the English cart. I know the Japanese cart glitchless record is sub-4 hours when defeating the final blow and considering how much faster that version runs, it's no surprise there's at least an hour and a half difference between our times.

I wish I had time to test frame-by-frame how much quicker the Japanese game is in comparison to the English game, but I can say that in battles, when you try to Lifeup yourself from a mortal blow, the Japanese can get away with it at around 16-18 HP, while the English cart can only get away with around 22-24 HP. So, if you do the math just based on that alone, the Japanese text is about 25% faster than the English text. Then again, it is very much possible that other parts of the game are slower or quicker than just 25%, meaning that I can't just set in stone that it is 25% faster. It's just a rough comparison, I guess you can say.

Ratio to Minutes
17 = 239
23 x

x = 323 minutes = 5:23:xx

Once again, this is just me rambling about some comparisons to the Japanese game, but this could easily be all proven wrong. It seems that around 5:23 is possible, which is only 14 minutes faster than my submitted run, which probably could have been sub-5:30 without all the silly mistakes. So, I'm gonna shoot for sub-5:30, but if it seems that 5:23 or less is possible, then I'll keep on going. Thankfully, with my new computer set-up, I can easily stream myself playing while recording my runs directly to my computer (I'd have to test it out, but my computer seems fully capable of doing so).

Don't know when I'll be able to get more attempts in anytime soon, but all I know is it's going to be at the very latest, around June-July. I'll probably spend a couple of weeks this month to brush up the route completely and another few weeks to practice the sandwich glitches and some other untested things.

Alright, if the skip sandwich glitch is allowed, I'll definitely have to see if I can get them down with practice. If days of practice doesn't help me, I'll just walk it out. Like you said, it's really only a couple of minutes, but I guess minutes add up in a run this long. I estimate with amazing luck and a perfect route, just maybe sub 5:25 is possible, but I don't think it could get any lower than that on the English cart. I know the Japanese cart glitchless record is sub-4 hours when defeating the final blow and considering how much faster that version runs, it's no surprise there's at least an hour and a half difference between our times.

I wish I had time to test frame-by-frame how much quicker the Japanese game is in comparison to the English game, but I can say that in battles, when you try to Lifeup yourself from a mortal blow, the Japanese can get away with it at around 16-18 HP, while the English cart can only get away with around 22-24 HP. So, if you do the math just based on that alone, the Japanese text is about 25% faster than the English text. Then again, it is very much possible that other parts of the game are slower or quicker than just 25%, meaning that I can't just set in stone that it is 25% faster. It's just a rough comparison, I guess you can say.

[u][b]Ratio to Minutes[/b][/u]
     [u]17[/u] = [u]239[/u]
     23       x

x = 323 minutes = 5:23:xx

Once again, this is just me rambling about some comparisons to the Japanese game, but this could easily be all proven wrong. It seems that around 5:23 is possible, which is only 14 minutes faster than my submitted run, which probably could have been sub-5:30 without all the silly mistakes. So, I'm gonna shoot for sub-5:30, but if it seems that 5:23 or less is possible, then I'll keep on going. Thankfully, with my new computer set-up, I can easily stream myself playing while recording my runs directly to my computer (I'd have to test it out, but my computer seems fully capable of doing so).

Don't know when I'll be able to get more attempts in anytime soon, but all I know is it's going to be at the very latest, around June-July. I'll probably spend a couple of weeks this month to brush up the route completely and another few weeks to practice the sandwich glitches and some other untested things.

Mickey_Mage

2012-02-28 07:47:27 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

You bring up a good point also that, if anybody runs the japanese version, it would have to be separated based on speed of text (usually it's not this extreme but, i've noticed with this game it's crazy fast for japanese). An hour faster SS in nuts. I'm curious to see, with my route, how fast the glitched run could be in japanese. Obviously for an actual submittable glitched run, the Nico Nico route would probably be used.

skateman222

2012-02-28 07:52:12 pm

Well, if your record is 2:30ish (I honestly don't remember what your best time is), it'd probably be around 1:51ish on the Japanese cart. Then again, yea, you would have to use the Nico route considering the Mach Pizza strategy for the stair glitch doesn't work.

Mickey_Mage

2012-02-28 07:56:33 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Well, my run for the marathon was around 2:25ish (2:30 should be about average with my route), but I know I've done a little better than that on stream at least once. Yeah, damn the lack of the pizza guy in the Japanese cart. That's ok, I would do a segmented run since I'm not crazy enough to do SS (nor have the time anymore).

MUGG

Edit history:

MUGG: 2012-03-01 09:39:29 am

MUGG: 2012-03-01 09:38:22 am

2012-03-01 09:32:55 am

TASer

http://listeners.reep.info/?cmd=read&page=Peercast%20Record%2FMOTHER2
http://www40.atwiki.jp/niconamarta/pages/80.html

According to these japanese RTA lists, the WR for the glitched run is 1:35:55 (this was already known).
And according to はしばみ's nicovideo page it seems the WR for the glitchless run is at least 4:14:15.

There's a video of a 4 hour 33 minutes long run.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm16390168