EarthBound

Mickey_Mage

2012-03-01 07:04:23 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

So, the Japanese version does take an hour off, at least. Good to know.

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2012-03-01 07:22:34 pm

2012-03-01 07:13:04 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Also, I've been screwing around with going to Threed before Happy Happy, and it doesn't seem like anything is wrong with that route. I'm not sure how much time is gained (there has to be some) but, it seems just as safe to do either. I don't think you can do any plot stuff after Threed, though (meaning, before we go back to Happy Happy village), so that might be as far as we go with that. Not saying it should be added to a route (unless it helps with the time tremendously). So, for now this is just playing around on my part.

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2012-03-02 07:35:15 pm

2012-03-02 07:33:04 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

The only problem with doing the route above is, when you save in Twoson you're not going to be doing a deathwarp until you lose Paula, and defeat the Department Store Spook. You will get Paula back when you get her in Happy Happy, by the way (I knew this a long time ago, just never for actual speedrun route planning. Granted, in a live setting at the marathon I would save more, not using the deathwarp to twoson. Only buses would be used to get back to Twoson.

In my playthrough last night, I was able to survive until I deathwarped back to Twoson, but it was kind of dangerous (the 3rd Strongest mole cave isn't really all that hard if you just don't fight that many snakes and noosemen. The department is actually harder to survive when you're worrying about dying than anywhere else that early... I haven't really considered this a hard route to plan out so far, but I can't compare route times until I know the rest of Skateman's route (still need to watch all of the run...). Hopefully this route can save enough time to use it, but if it doesn't it's at least fun to play around with anyway.

The only problem with doing the route above is, when you save in Twoson you're not going to be doing a deathwarp until you lose Paula, and defeat the Department Store Spook. You will get Paula back when you get her in Happy Happy, by the way (I knew this a long time ago, just never for actual speedrun route planning. Granted, in a live setting at the marathon I would save more, not using the deathwarp to twoson. Only buses would be used to get back to Twoson.

In my playthrough last night, I was able to survive until I deathwarped back to Twoson, but it was kind of dangerous (the 3rd Strongest mole cave isn't really all that hard if you just don't fight that many snakes and noosemen. The department is actually harder to survive when you're worrying about dying than anywhere else that early... I haven't really considered this a hard route to plan out so far, but I can't compare route times until I know the rest of Skateman's route (still need to watch all of the run...). Hopefully this route can save enough time to use it, but if it doesn't it's at least fun to play around with anyway.

skateman222

2012-03-02 07:42:58 pm

It could save time. I'm just not a fan of the glitches, especially when the Japanese RTA runners don't use them unless they do the full glitched run. Also, I was curious to see how much faster I can get than the record at Twin Galaxies, which of course doesn't allow glitches, but it turned out I was an hour ahead, which is nuts. I think I am going to stick to my route, maybe make more improvements to be more risky and save more time (like a lot less saving). Gotta save those frames!

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2012-03-06 05:03:13 am

Mickey_Mage: 2012-03-02 09:02:44 pm

2012-03-02 09:01:38 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

The Japanese full game RTA doesn't use either wall glitch in Peaceful Rest Valley or Lilliput? I highly doubt that, since they're no Twin Galaxies. If the nico nico community can save time, I'm sure they will do it however they can. I mean, sure, they don't have to do what I suggested in my last post, but the PRV and Lilliput wall skips save over a minute each. That's huge on the Japanese cart.

skateman222

2012-03-02 09:54:26 pm

They do not do it. I'm telling you. I have seen pretty much every Japanese RTA on Nico. They ALL don't use it.

skateman222

Edit history:

skateman222: 2012-05-27 03:02:25 pm

2012-05-20 06:12:55 pm

Alright guys. It's time to get back to work on my SS run of this game. Thank you very much for the comments as I knew improvements can easily be made. While I did not agree with all of the comments, most of them were right and there were even some I did not even notice. So, it's really nice to see that there are very keen verifiers out there! ^_^

I am streaming an attempt right now, but I doubt it will be any good. It will be more of a refresher of the game than going for World Record, but anyways. I'll be streaming at http://www.twitch.tv/skateman222.

Milligramcracker

2012-05-21 06:38:57 pm

Micromanager extraordinaire

Hey skateman, the link is broken. Can you fix that?

Strongfox

Edit history:

Strongfox: 2012-05-21 07:17:13 pm

2012-05-21 07:16:54 pm

Quote from Milligramcracker:

Hey skateman, the link is broken. Can you fix that?

fixed it for you http://www.twitch.tv/skateman222

nemi

Edit history:

nemi: 2012-11-12 05:32:14 pm

2012-11-12 05:31:43 pm

I guess the current focus is on a full-game run for AGDQ, but watching Mickey_Mage's glitched run got me really interested in attempting a similar run. I'll probably use the same route Pirohiko used (with a few minor changes, which I describe below), though I don't know if Ukyou's 1:35:55 used a different route.

This is Pirohiko's route:

[ Standard up to Twoson. ]

TWOSON/THREED/WINTERS

1. Buy 3 Ketchup Packets and 6 Skip Sandwiches in Burglin Park. Call Escargo Express in the Bus Station and store the Ketchup Packets.
2. Skip to Threed and get captured.
3. Go through Winters as Jeff, and save in Dr. Andonuts's Lab.
4. Reset the game and the RNG. Go through a specific sequence of actions to get an Urban Zombie to appear in Threed. The fight should proceed such that Ness catches a cold, Paula and Jeff fall unconscious, and Ness successfully runs away.

SUMMERS

5. Skip to Summers. Wait until Ness falls to 4 HP, and save in the museum.
6. Reset and copy the save file.
7. Glitch on the stairs in Summers, and get a Diamond Band in the Pyramid.
8. Glitch on the stairs in the Pyramid and skip to Lumine Hall. Death warp back to Summers.

TOTO

9. Go to Toto shop and save.
10. Reset and manipulate the RNG again to buy a max HP/PP Lucky Sandwich. Sell the Diamond Band ($4999).
11. Buy 4 Secret Herbs and revive Paula.

MAGICANT

12. Save and reset. Load the second file and die on the stairs in Summers. Load the original file and ghost to Magicant shop. Buy and equip an Earth Pendant ($4000) for Ness.
13. Talk to Tracy and retrieve the 3 Ketchup Packets.
14. Recruit 2 Flying Men and get the Bag of Dragonite. Avoid everything except Mr. Molecules.
15. Fight 1 Kraken. Use Paralysis until it works. Use a Secret Herb on Paula if she falls unconscious.
16. Defeat Ness's Nightmare. Use the Lucky Sandwich (dupe with Ketchup Packets) to maintain PP.

ENDGAME

17. Go through the entrance to Saturn Valley to add it to your teleport list.
18. Teleport to Winters and save in the drugstore.
19. Die in Summers and reload in Winters. Glitch to Lier X. Agerate's house, and obtain the Meteorite Piece.
20. In Saturn Valley, buy a Night Pendant and equip it on Ness. Give the Earth Pendant to Paula. Buy 4 Horns of Life and give one or two to Paula.
21. Buy a bunch of Ketchup Packets in Twoson. Pirohiko ended up with 7.
22. Go back in time and save.
23. Reset, die in Summers, and skip to Giygas's lair.

The RNG manipulation methods used in steps 4 & 10 need to change for EarthBound because of the different amount of text. The best I could find were these:

I've repeated these several times, and they seem pretty consistent. Sometimes, the zombies appear on the left side of the screen, but doing the same steps during the fight seems to produce the same results.

I also looked for possible alternatives to Pirohiko's route (I don't want to rip him off completely). One possibility I found was to get the Sea Pendant and a Horn of Life in the Underworld rather than getting the Diamond Band and the Earth Pendant. Getting the Sea Pendant is potentially about 30 seconds faster:

There's a bit of RNG manipulation in the Underworld video to prevent the geyser from erupting and to get an enemy to appear near the Sea Pendant. I also cut out a few seconds from the Diamond Band video because I suspect the waiting in the Pyramid can be more optimal.

So the slightly modified route I'm currently looking at is:

[ Standard up to Twoson. ]

TWOSON/THREED/WINTERS

1. Enter Twoson with almost no money. Sell the Tee Ball Bat, the Mr. Baseball Cap, the Cheap Bracelet, and any remaining food. Leave only the ATM Card, Sound Stone, Map, and possibly a Cup of Coffee.
2. Buy 6 Ketchup Packets and 4 Skip Sandwiches in Burglin Park.
3. Skip to Threed. Buy a Cup of Coffee if I don't have one. Get captured.
4. Go through Winters as Jeff, and save in Dr. Andonuts's Lab.

SUMMERS

5. Reset and skip to Summers. Wait until Ness falls to 4 HP, and save in the museum.
6. Reset and copy the save file.
7. Glitch on the stairs in Summers, and skip to Lumine Hall. Get a Horn of Life and the Sea Pendant, then death warp back to Summers.

TOTO

8. Go to Toto shop and save.
9. Reset and manipulate the RNG again to buy a max HP/PP Lucky Sandwich.
10. Sell Jeff's Defense Spray and Paula's Teddy Bear. Buy 2 Secret Herbs and save.

MAGICANT

11. Reset, load the second file, and die on the stairs in Summers. Load the original file and skip to the Flying Men's house. Recruit 2 Flying Men.
12. While going through Magicant, get the Bag of Dragonite and a Magic Tart (for Poo during the Giygas fight). Avoid everything except Mr. Molecules, and revive Paula with a Secret Herb.
13. Defeat Ness's Nightmare. Use the Lucky Sandwich (dupe with Ketchup Packets) to maintain PP.

ENDGAME

14. Go through the entrance to Saturn Valley to add it to your teleport list.
15. Teleport to Winters and save in the drugstore.
16. Die in Summers and reload in Winters. Ghost to Lier X. Agerate's house, and obtain the Meteorite Piece.
17. In Saturn Valley, buy a Night Pendant and equip it on Ness. Give the Sea Pendant to Paula. Buy 4 Horns of Life and give one or two to Paula.
18. Buy a few Ketchup Packets in Twoson.
19. Go back in time and save.
20. Reset, die in Summers, and skip to Giygas's lair.

I guess the current focus is on a full-game run for AGDQ, but watching Mickey_Mage's glitched run got me really interested in attempting a similar run. I'll probably use the same route Pirohiko used (with a few minor changes, which I describe below), though I don't know if Ukyou's 1:35:55 used a different route.

This is [url=http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/1277564352]Pirohiko's[/url] route:

[hidden]
[ Standard up to Twoson. ]

TWOSON/THREED/WINTERS

1. Buy 3 Ketchup Packets and 6 Skip Sandwiches in Burglin Park. Call Escargo Express in the Bus Station and store the Ketchup Packets.
2. Skip to Threed and get captured.
3. Go through Winters as Jeff, and save in Dr. Andonuts's Lab.
4. Reset the game and the RNG. Go through a specific sequence of actions to get an Urban Zombie to appear in Threed. The fight should proceed such that Ness catches a cold, Paula and Jeff fall unconscious, and Ness successfully runs away.

SUMMERS

5. Skip to Summers. Wait until Ness falls to 4 HP, and save in the museum.
6. Reset and copy the save file.
7. Glitch on the stairs in Summers, and get a Diamond Band in the Pyramid.
8. Glitch on the stairs in the Pyramid and skip to Lumine Hall. Death warp back to Summers.

TOTO

9. Go to Toto shop and save.
10. Reset and manipulate the RNG again to buy a max HP/PP Lucky Sandwich. Sell the Diamond Band ($4999).
11. Buy 4 Secret Herbs and revive Paula.

MAGICANT

12. Save and reset. Load the second file and die on the stairs in Summers. Load the original file and ghost to Magicant shop. Buy and equip an Earth Pendant ($4000) for Ness.
13. Talk to Tracy and retrieve the 3 Ketchup Packets.
14. Recruit 2 Flying Men and get the Bag of Dragonite. Avoid everything except Mr. Molecules.
15. Fight 1 Kraken. Use Paralysis until it works. Use a Secret Herb on Paula if she falls unconscious.
16. Defeat Ness's Nightmare. Use the Lucky Sandwich (dupe with Ketchup Packets) to maintain PP.

ENDGAME

17. Go through the entrance to Saturn Valley to add it to your teleport list.
18. Teleport to Winters and save in the drugstore.
19. Die in Summers and reload in Winters. Glitch to Lier X. Agerate's house, and obtain the Meteorite Piece.
20. In Saturn Valley, buy a Night Pendant and equip it on Ness. Give the Earth Pendant to Paula. Buy 4 Horns of Life and give one or two to Paula.
21. Buy a bunch of Ketchup Packets in Twoson. Pirohiko ended up with 7.
22. Go back in time and save.
23. Reset, die in Summers, and skip to Giygas's lair.
[/hidden]

The RNG manipulation methods used in steps 4 & 10 need to change for EarthBound because of the different amount of text. The best I could find were these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kebYev9ESDM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RcdpGwgol8

I've repeated these several times, and they seem pretty consistent. Sometimes, the zombies appear on the left side of the screen, but doing the same steps during the fight seems to produce the same results.

I also looked for possible alternatives to Pirohiko's route (I don't want to rip him off [i]completely[/i]). One possibility I found was to get the Sea Pendant and a Horn of Life in the Underworld rather than getting the Diamond Band and the Earth Pendant. Getting the Sea Pendant is potentially about 30 seconds faster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDf5aExAz3E

There's a bit of RNG manipulation in the Underworld video to prevent the geyser from erupting and to get an enemy to appear near the Sea Pendant. I also cut out a few seconds from the Diamond Band video because I suspect the waiting in the Pyramid can be more optimal.

So the slightly modified route I'm currently looking at is:

[hidden]
[ Standard up to Twoson. ]

TWOSON/THREED/WINTERS

1. Enter Twoson with almost no money. Sell the Tee Ball Bat, the Mr. Baseball Cap, the Cheap Bracelet, and any remaining food. Leave only the ATM Card, Sound Stone, Map, and possibly a Cup of Coffee.
2. Buy 6 Ketchup Packets and 4 Skip Sandwiches in Burglin Park.
3. Skip to Threed. Buy a Cup of Coffee if I don't have one. Get captured.
4. Go through Winters as Jeff, and save in Dr. Andonuts's Lab.

SUMMERS

5. Reset and skip to Summers. Wait until Ness falls to 4 HP, and save in the museum.
6. Reset and copy the save file.
7. Glitch on the stairs in Summers, and skip to Lumine Hall. Get a Horn of Life and the Sea Pendant, then death warp back to Summers.

TOTO

8. Go to Toto shop and save.
9. Reset and manipulate the RNG again to buy a max HP/PP Lucky Sandwich.
10. Sell Jeff's Defense Spray and Paula's Teddy Bear. Buy 2 Secret Herbs and save.

MAGICANT

11. Reset, load the second file, and die on the stairs in Summers. Load the original file and skip to the Flying Men's house. Recruit 2 Flying Men. 
12. While going through Magicant, get the Bag of Dragonite and a Magic Tart (for Poo during the Giygas fight). Avoid everything except Mr. Molecules, and revive Paula with a Secret Herb.
13. Defeat Ness's Nightmare. Use the Lucky Sandwich (dupe with Ketchup Packets) to maintain PP.

ENDGAME

14. Go through the entrance to Saturn Valley to add it to your teleport list.
15. Teleport to Winters and save in the drugstore.
16. Die in Summers and reload in Winters. Ghost to Lier X. Agerate's house, and obtain the Meteorite Piece.
17. In Saturn Valley, buy a Night Pendant and equip it on Ness. Give the Sea Pendant to Paula. Buy 4 Horns of Life and give one or two to Paula.
18. Buy a few Ketchup Packets in Twoson.
19. Go back in time and save.
20. Reset, die in Summers, and skip to Giygas's lair.
[/hidden]

nemi

2012-11-23 02:01:07 am

This is my second complete run:

SDA time: 1:36:56
Nico time: 1:54:45

This run is somewhat rough, but it establishes a decent benchmark. The biggest mistake is that it took me a couple of tries to activate the glitch in Summers. Otherwise, I got every major shortcut on the first try. The execution in the second half isn't very smooth due to lack of practice, since this is only the 3rd time I got past Threed.

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2012-12-13 09:52:00 pm

2012-12-13 09:50:59 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

I have to give you much praise, nemi. That is simply amazing! Shocked

Skateman mentioned you put these up, so I had to check them out. I still haven't watched your run, but I will tomorrow definitely. Love how you found ways to manipulate luck in real time. I need to try some of these out sometime soon, too.

I'm so glad people are working on the glitched run, since it makes up for my laziness. Though to be fair, I'm not on the same level since I never practiced a true glitched route, and got so used to the one I created for the marathon. Cant wait to see more videos from you, and maybe even a submitted run to SDA? Anyway, good luck with everything!

nemi

2012-12-14 11:26:02 pm

Thanks, Mickey_Mage. I'm definitely aiming for a submittable run, but I still have some testing/practice to do. Right now, I'm looking into the possibility of forgoing Toto Shop since I didn't need to revive Paula in the Sea of Eden in my practice run. The Lucky Sandwich can be replaced with the Brain Food Lunch (+ Salt Packets) from the Underworld. This is another risk on top of everything else, though, so it might be a while before I make meaningful progress.

0xwas

Edit history:

0xwas: 2013-02-10 02:40:05 am

2013-02-10 02:35:33 am

yuri 4 life

http://www.twitch.tv/0xwas/c/1912459 i got 4:55:27 today but i timed from "Are you sure?" so real sda time would be 4:54:19 or 20.

This run was sloppy in some places due to bad rng and bad menus. Although i got good rng in last 1 hour. I used VC injected but it won't make huge time difference i guess.

Stenirrpg

2013-04-04 11:51:06 am

Has anybody attempted a 100% run? I started work on it, and made it through Onett and Twoson, then went back and revamped my route. I know there's a massive debate on what "100%" is. I had the following breakdown of runs I was going to do:

100% ND - No Drops
Rule 1 - Must fight one of every enemy
Rule 2 - Must do all sidequests (Insignificant Item, Seeds, Coffee stops, etc.)
Rule 3 - Must open all gift boxes, trash cans, etc.
Rule 4 - Must get all PSI powers, but do not need to get to level 99 (the stats could be covered by abusing the Rock Candy trick faster than leveling)
Rule 5 - Must get all Fuzzy Pickles Photoman Locations

100% EO - Final Equips Only
In addition to rules 1-5 from ND above:
Rule 6 - Must get the best final equips for everyone

100% Full - All Drops
In addition to rules 1-6 from ND and EO above:
Rule 7 - Must get drops from all monsters, but only those drops which can not be found elsewhere (e.g., you don't have to fight until a Pizza drops from a monster, as you can buy it)

Those are the three versions I was looking at doing runs for. Theoretically, the fastest time for 100% EO would be a few battles past ND, if you assume that you get the multiple items you needed to drop 100% of the time.

I started to work on the ND version, because that was a good starting point. I had one run where I managed to fight all the enemies, get through Onett and Twoson, and do everything (except the second Photo in Onett at the shack, which I was going to come back at a later time to get). I was segmenting it, and then was going to use those timings as a basis for a full non-segmented run. I managed to get to Threed and Save in about 2h5m.

Then last night, I started a run and got some super stupid luck (knocking out two cops, each with a SMAAAASH; getting a pizza, killing Captain Strong during rolling HP death, etc.). I ended up doing a lot in Onett and started on Peaceful Rest Valley, but then I (stupidly) tried to reorder some of my splits and jacked it up. Didn't realize it would reset the timer. Should have kept going, but I got frustrated and wanted a break.

If anybody can give me some pointers, I'm listing the videos here (first run I didn't realize I had bad settings for video, but I fixed them for the abandoned run). I was proud of what I got done. I ended up around 4 minutes faster than my segmented by that point (abandoned run had Onett and Twoson together).

First Run
Onett -
Twoson -

Second Run - Aborted

Has anybody attempted a 100% run? I started work on it, and made it through Onett and Twoson, then went back and revamped my route. I know there's a massive debate on what "100%" is. I had the following breakdown of runs I was going to do:

[u]100% ND - No Drops[/u]
Rule 1 - Must fight one of every enemy
Rule 2 - Must do all sidequests (Insignificant Item, Seeds, Coffee stops, etc.)
Rule 3 - Must open all gift boxes, trash cans, etc.
Rule 4 - Must get all PSI powers, but do not need to get to level 99 (the stats could be covered by abusing the Rock Candy trick faster than leveling)
Rule 5 - Must get all Fuzzy Pickles Photoman Locations

[u]100% EO - Final Equips Only[/u]
In addition to rules 1-5 from ND above:
Rule 6 - Must get the best final equips for everyone

[u]100% Full - All Drops[/u]
In addition to rules 1-6 from ND and EO above:
Rule 7 - Must get drops from all monsters, but only those drops which can not be found elsewhere (e.g., you don't have to fight until a Pizza drops from a monster, as you can buy it)

Those are the three versions I was looking at doing runs for. Theoretically, the fastest time for 100% EO would be a few battles past ND, if you assume that you get the multiple items you needed to drop 100% of the time.

I started to work on the ND version, because that was a good starting point. I had one run where I managed to fight all the enemies, get through Onett and Twoson, and do everything (except the second Photo in Onett at the shack, which I was going to come back at a later time to get). I was segmenting it, and then was going to use those timings as a basis for a full non-segmented run. I managed to get to Threed and Save in about 2h5m.

Then last night, I started a run and got some super stupid luck (knocking out two cops, each with a SMAAAASH; getting a pizza, killing Captain Strong during rolling HP death, etc.). I ended up doing a lot in Onett and started on Peaceful Rest Valley, but then I (stupidly) tried to reorder some of my splits and jacked it up. Didn't realize it would reset the timer. Should have kept going, but I got frustrated and wanted a break.

If anybody can give me some pointers, I'm listing the videos here (first run I didn't realize I had bad settings for video, but I fixed them for the abandoned run). I was proud of what I got done. I ended up around 4 minutes faster than my segmented by that point (abandoned run had Onett and Twoson together).

[u]First Run[/u]
Onett - [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-FnEkxKPog[/url]
Twoson - [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxSwhTTUVBw[/url]

[u]Second Run - Aborted[/u]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c12Cm4GpP0[/url]

MUGG

2013-04-04 11:58:53 pm

TASer

Why fight each kind of enemy? If there is no point to that then I wouldn't do it.

Is it even possible to hold all items at the same time?

Without knowing better I think all items and all photos is 100%.
Not sure about sidequests. Definitely not agreeing with opening all trashcans and such though, that's like if you open all chests in Ocarina of time which they don't do.

Stenirrpg

2013-04-05 05:11:01 am

When I was trying to come up with the different aspects of what would be considered 100% for Earthbound, I was looking at a bunch of different areas where people were talking about it. Photoman was a staple of everyone's version of 100%. Doing glitchless means I'm doing either natural route, or Milky Well "delay", where you come back later.

Since the views were so varied and there were so many different combinations, I figured this would be somewhat similar to the FFX challenges. Things like No Sphere Grid, or No Items, etc. This, of course, would be on a much smaller scale.

The problem is that I don't believe any group of people has sat down and actually decided what 100% means. This is why I had three different timings - I wanted to try and catch as many beliefs of "100% Earthbound Requirements" as possible.

To answer your question directly, the reason I put a rule of fighting each kind of enemy was completeness. The point of 100% is to do most of the game, correct? Barring any silliness like luck-based item drops (cough Sword of Kings). However, I didn't feel that this was that bad of a rule; even with not requiring level 99 and only requiring getting all PSI, I would need to fight a nice number of enemies. Since the first goal for this is Single Segment 100%, I have to play it safe and not goof up. So I need the experience. Yeah, it can screw you over as it did in my aborted run where I couldn't get the game to spawn a Cranky Lady in Twoson for a minute or two.

The good news is that I hoped to get a discussion going about 100% - look, I did it!

I don't believe there's enough room to have all items at the same time, even counting Escargo Express' storage. This is why I changed the line of thought from "have all items" to more of a "have access to all items". It makes no sense to store a Hamburger when you can easily just buy it. So, that's why I change the item rule to either be only the best final equipment for each character or only farm for the drops that you can't get anywhere else. As long as you can buy it somewhere (or have found it in a box), I don't believe you should have to waste storage on it.

Regarding opening trashcans and such, I understand the comparison, but I don't believe it's a perfect analogy. OoT has required items to get 100% stuck in Chests; Earthbound does not. You could do a run without getting any (other than the Cracked Bat, of course). But, for completeness sake, I figured 100% Presents/Cans/etc. was not too time consuming, and would help ensure that I had enough money or items to survive.

Granted, games like OoT gave me reason to avoid "100% Earthbound = Talking to everyone". Name one game where you have to talk to everyone to ge 100%. We'd be here all day in Earthbound...and the rest of this week.

My goal is to complete a 100% Photoman, 100% Enemy, 100% Sidequest, 100% Present/Can/Chest as a starting point. Sure, I accept that not everyone will agree with me, but it's a starting point. I wouldn't mind doing a bunch of different versions. Besides, even if I complete a first run, it wouldn't be anywhere near submittable. I'd end up wanting to do analysis and see if there's better routing.

Thanks for raising some excellent points.

When I was trying to come up with the different aspects of what would be considered 100% for Earthbound, I was looking at a bunch of different areas where people were talking about it. Photoman was a staple of everyone's version of 100%. Doing glitchless means I'm doing either natural route, or Milky Well "delay", where you come back later.

Since the views were so varied and there were so many different combinations, I figured this would be somewhat similar to the FFX challenges. Things like No Sphere Grid, or No Items, etc. This, of course, would be on a much smaller scale.

The problem is that I don't believe any group of people has sat down and actually decided what 100% means. This is why I had three different timings - I wanted to try and catch as many beliefs of "100% Earthbound Requirements" as possible.

To answer your question directly, the reason I put a rule of fighting each kind of enemy was completeness. The point of 100% is to do most of the game, correct? Barring any silliness like luck-based item drops (cough Sword of Kings).  However, I didn't feel that this was that bad of a rule; even with not requiring level 99 and only requiring getting all PSI, I would need to fight a nice number of enemies. Since the first goal for this is Single Segment 100%, I have to play it safe and not goof up. So I need the experience. Yeah, it can screw you over as it did in my aborted run where I couldn't get the game to spawn a Cranky Lady in Twoson for a minute or two.

The good news is that I hoped to get a discussion going about 100% - look, I did it!

I don't believe there's enough room to have all items at the same time, even counting Escargo Express' storage. This is why I changed the line of thought from "have all items" to more of a "have access to all items". It makes no sense to store a Hamburger when you can easily just buy it. So, that's why I change the item rule to either be only the best final equipment for each character or only farm for the drops that you can't get anywhere else. As long as you can buy it somewhere (or have found it in a box), I don't believe you should have to waste storage on it.

Regarding opening trashcans and such, I understand the comparison, but I don't believe it's a perfect analogy. OoT has required items to get 100% stuck in Chests; Earthbound does not. You could do a run without getting any (other than the Cracked Bat, of course). But, for completeness sake, I figured 100% Presents/Cans/etc. was not too time consuming, and would help ensure that I had enough money or items to survive.

Granted, games like OoT gave me reason to avoid "100% Earthbound = Talking to everyone". Name one game where you have to talk to everyone to ge 100%. We'd be here all day in Earthbound...and the rest of this week.

My goal is to complete a 100% Photoman, 100% Enemy, 100% Sidequest, 100% Present/Can/Chest as a starting point. Sure, I accept that not everyone will agree with me, but it's a starting point. I wouldn't mind doing a bunch of different versions. Besides, even if I complete a first run, it wouldn't be anywhere near submittable. I'd end up wanting to do analysis and see if there's better routing.

Thanks for raising some excellent points.

jceresa2

2013-04-05 09:34:04 am

Mostly posting to keep up with this discussion as it unfolds but aren't most games 100% requirements things that are trackable in game. IE; since the game does not track what trash cans you have or have not opened it wouldn't be required to open them all?

Stenirrpg

Edit history:

Stenirrpg: 2013-04-05 10:04:52 am

2013-04-05 10:01:42 am

Most games, I would agree. But if you go off of that for Earthbound, you would have to get all Photoman locations, level 99, exact maximum statistics, get your bank to maximum amount, have the maximum amount on you.

Problem is that Earthbound doesn't actually track much, so I think it's actually hard to go off that.

Things players could track would be the presents/trash cans, the completion of sidequests like the Insignificant Item or the desert quest where you get the sock as a reward, having all of Jeff's broken items fixed, etc.

So, I was trying to come up with a happy medium for saying 100% completion. Normally you would do all sidequests in RPGs to be considered 100%, so I would count that. Fixing Jeff's broken items wouldn't be too far out of the way, and it makes sense.

Perhaps the best runs are set up like FFX challenges after all, where there's a combination of:
SQ - All Sidequests
PM - All Photoman
JB - All Items Fixed by Jeff
GB - Getting All Gift Boxes/Trash Cans
EN - All Enemies Fought at Least Once
PS - All Psychic Powers
LV - Level 99
LL - Low Level

I personally believe 100% would be all except LV and LL, because the whole point of 100% is to experience the entire game. I would, however, agree that since EN (All Enemies) is really down to luck-based RNG on when enemies scroll onto the screen, that should be left out. I don't think Luck-Based is something you can have in 100%, since it could happen on try 1, 100, 500, or never. So since the first four are pretty much easy enough to complete, I think I should go off those for what 100% should be called.

All I can say is that I'm going to end up ruining Tony's birthday party trying to complete a 100% run with SQ/PM/JB/GB/PS. I don't like the idea of grinding to Level 99 instead of the Rock Candy trick. Especially since this would be glitchless.

Most games, I would agree. But if you go off of that for Earthbound, you would have to get all Photoman locations, level 99, exact maximum statistics, get your bank to maximum amount, have the maximum amount on you.

Problem is that Earthbound doesn't actually track much, so I think it's actually hard to go off that.

Things players could track would be the presents/trash cans, the completion of sidequests like the Insignificant Item or the desert quest where you get the sock as a reward, having all of Jeff's broken items fixed, etc.

So, I was trying to come up with a happy medium for saying 100% completion. Normally you would do all sidequests in RPGs to be considered 100%, so I would count that. Fixing Jeff's broken items wouldn't be too far out of the way, and it makes sense.

Perhaps the best runs are set up like FFX challenges after all, where there's a combination of:
SQ - All Sidequests
PM - All Photoman
JB - All Items Fixed by Jeff
GB - Getting All Gift Boxes/Trash Cans
EN - All Enemies Fought at Least Once
PS - All Psychic Powers
LV - Level 99
LL - Low Level

I personally believe 100% would be all except LV and LL, because the whole point of 100% is to experience the entire game. I would, however, agree that since EN (All Enemies) is really down to luck-based RNG on when enemies scroll onto the screen, that should be left out. I don't think Luck-Based is something you can have in 100%, since it could happen on try 1, 100, 500, or never. So since the first four are pretty much easy enough to complete, I think I should go off those for what 100% should be called.

All I can say is that I'm going to end up ruining Tony's birthday party trying to complete a 100% run with SQ/PM/JB/GB/PS. I don't like the idea of grinding to Level 99 instead of the Rock Candy trick. Especially since this would be glitchless.

__sdfg

Edit history:

__sdfg: 2013-04-05 07:50:52 pm

2013-04-05 07:50:19 pm

D:

Quote from Stenirrpg:

The point of 100% is to do most of the game, correct?

I think of 100% as completing all of the objectives the game offers you, rather than just doing what'll get you through the game the fastest like in any%. Looking at it that way makes it easier to rule out requirements like "all NPC dialogue" or whatever.

Here are my thoughts on what you've listed:

Rule 1 (every enemy) - There is no prize or score-tracking for fighting every enemy. I would say to skip this.

Rule 2 (all side quests) - I think the side quests in EarthBound are mainly for atmosphere. The game tends to give you either a consumable item or nothing as a reward. I would also leave this out, though you could argue for it.

Rule 3 (all presents) - This is not a common 100% requirement. The game obviously does track which chests you've opened in the sense that you can't open them twice, but you don't get anything for opening all of them (other than ALL THE THIGNS) and there is no end-of-game present-opening score like in the Lufia games. I say skip it.

Rule 4 (all PSI powers) - Since the only requirement for the PSI powers is grinding, I'd rather not include PSI powers. 100% definitions tend to go more toward collection rather than maxing levels and stats, and I view this as being akin to maxing levels even though you don't have to fully max your levels to do it.

Rule 5 (all photomen) - This could work. The game plays all the photos back during the ending. At the moment, I'd lean against including it because you don't get anything for it other than the prettier ending and the only gameplay requirement it adds is more walking around, but I might change my mind.

Rule 6 (best final equips) - This is what comes to mind for me when someone mentions a 100% EarthBound run. You'd have to decide what counts as the "best" equips, but I don't think it'd be hard to find a definition. Getting multiple 1/128 drops would so incredibly painful, though. Sad

Rule 7 (all drop-only drops) - I don't think this is needed on top of Rule 6. The unequippable drops that would fall into this category aren't very interesting.

JB (Jeff fixes everything) - Most of the fixed items are either better weapons than you might be able to buy at a particular stage of the game (depending on Jeff's IQ) or novelties, IMO. The fact that you can get Defense spray through other means doesn't help. I don't see a need for this other than the Gaia beam as part of Rule 6.

To summarize, my guess at a 100% definition would be getting the rare equipment and maybe triggering all of the photo shoots. The game gives you clear rewards that aren't Supormas for both of those tasks. You wouldn't see as much of the game as if some of the other requirements were included, but I think the accomplishment-to-wandering-around ratio on the others is too low to justify them. Whether my definition is realistic given the odds involved in acquiring the rare equipment, though... well, I don't know, but I don't think just requiring all photo shoots does enough to make 100% interesting vs. any%.

That's my opinion, though. 100% requirements in games that don't award a percentage are really subjective. For reference, FF6 100% includes all characters in the World of Ruin and all espers except Odin, but doesn't include other "quests" like filling out Gau's rage list. So, having the discussion is good. TBH I think the reason there hasn't been much discussion before is that getting the rare equipment seems like an obvious requirement and nobody wants to do that in a run. :<

Regarding suggestions for your run, I highly recommend that you check out the run 0xwas linked a few posts above. IIRC 0xwas, skateman222, and Mickey_Mage are the people most knowledgeable about current full-game strategies (if I missed anyone, sorry >_>). I only skipped through the videos you posted a bit, but to get you started, here are a couple things I noticed in Onett:

Sell the Mr. Baseball cap and use the money to buy a Cheap bracelet. You should have enough money to also pick up a regular Baseball cap. The two together will give you some extra defense for Frank, and you won't miss the Mr. Baseball cap when you go to Giant Step later.
Try to avoid fighting Black Antoids and Rowdy Mice. You will level faster off Attack Slugs. If an Antoid or a Mouse is chasing you and you don't want to fight it, use the stutter-stepping trick 0xwas used in his run to trick the AI into keeping the enemy away from you. This only works with certain enemies, but fortunately, all of the enemies in Giant Step are included.

Other than that, I think having a set 100% definition will help a lot so you'll know if you have to route opening presents/fighting certain enemies/talking to random people like Lier X. Agerate/etc.

[quote="Stenirrpg"]The point of 100% is to do most of the game, correct?[/quote]
I think of 100% as completing all of the objectives the game offers you, rather than just doing what'll get you through the game the fastest like in any%.  Looking at it that way makes it easier to rule out requirements like "all NPC dialogue" or whatever.

Here are my thoughts on what you've listed:

Rule 1 (every enemy) - There is no prize or score-tracking for fighting every enemy.  I would say to skip this.

Rule 2 (all side quests) - I think the side quests in EarthBound are mainly for atmosphere.  The game tends to give you either a consumable item or nothing as a reward.  I would also leave this out, though you could argue for it.

Rule 3 (all presents) - This is not a common 100% requirement.  The game obviously does track which chests you've opened in the sense that you can't open them twice, but you don't get anything for opening all of them (other than ALL THE THIGNS) and there is no end-of-game present-opening score like in the Lufia games.  I say skip it.

Rule 4 (all PSI powers) - Since the only requirement for the PSI powers is grinding, I'd rather not include PSI powers.  100% definitions tend to go more toward collection rather than maxing levels and stats, and I view this as being akin to maxing levels even though you don't have to fully max your levels to do it.

Rule 5 (all photomen) - This could work.  The game plays all the photos back during the ending.  At the moment, I'd lean against including it because you don't get anything for it other than the prettier ending and the only gameplay requirement it adds is more walking around, but I might change my mind.

Rule 6 (best final equips) - This is what comes to mind for me when someone mentions a 100% EarthBound run.  You'd have to decide what counts as the "best" equips, but I don't think it'd be hard to find a definition.  Getting multiple 1/128 drops would so incredibly painful, though. :(

Rule 7 (all drop-only drops) - I don't think this is needed on top of Rule 6.  The unequippable drops that would fall into this category aren't very interesting.

JB (Jeff fixes everything) - Most of the fixed items are either better weapons than you might be able to buy at a particular stage of the game (depending on Jeff's IQ) or novelties, IMO.  The fact that you can get Defense spray through other means doesn't help.  I don't see a need for this other than the Gaia beam as part of Rule 6.

To summarize, my guess at a 100% definition would be getting the rare equipment and maybe triggering all of the photo shoots.  The game gives you clear rewards that aren't Supormas for both of those tasks.  You wouldn't see as much of the game as if some of the other requirements were included, but I think the accomplishment-to-wandering-around ratio on the others is too low to justify them.  Whether my definition is realistic given the odds involved in acquiring the rare equipment, though...  well, I don't know, but I don't think just requiring all photo shoots does enough to make 100% interesting vs. any%.

That's my opinion, though.  100% requirements in games that don't award a percentage are really subjective.  For reference, FF6 100% includes all characters in the World of Ruin and all espers except Odin, but doesn't include other "quests" like filling out Gau's rage list.  So, having the discussion is good.  TBH I think the reason there hasn't been much discussion before is that getting the rare equipment seems like an obvious requirement and nobody wants to do that in a run. :<

Regarding suggestions for your run, I highly recommend that you check out the run 0xwas linked a few posts above.  IIRC 0xwas, skateman222, and Mickey_Mage are the people most knowledgeable about current full-game strategies (if I missed anyone, sorry >_>).  I only skipped through the videos you posted a bit, but to get you started, here are a couple things I noticed in Onett:
[ul]
[li]Sell the Mr. Baseball cap and use the money to buy a Cheap bracelet.  You should have enough money to also pick up a regular Baseball cap.  The two together will give you some extra defense for Frank, and you won't miss the Mr. Baseball cap when you go to Giant Step later.[/li]
[li]Try to avoid fighting Black Antoids and Rowdy Mice.  You will level faster off Attack Slugs.  If an Antoid or a Mouse is chasing you and you don't want to fight it, use the stutter-stepping trick 0xwas used in his run to trick the AI into keeping the enemy away from you.  This only works with certain enemies, but fortunately, all of the enemies in Giant Step are included.[/li]
[/ul]
Other than that, I think having a set 100% definition will help a lot so you'll know if you have to route opening presents/fighting certain enemies/talking to random people like Lier X. Agerate/etc.

moooh

2013-04-06 04:20:16 am

Exoray

Quote from Stenirrpg:

To answer your question directly, the reason I put a rule of fighting each kind of enemy was completeness. The point of 100% is to do most of the game, correct?

The problem here is that "completeness" is very subjective and means very different things to each viewer.
We try to avoid including arbitrary things in the definition because they are, well, arbitrary. Why fight one of each enemy but not include obtaining max money? You don't mention visiting every room in the game at least once, wouldn't map completion also be part of it?
When we make 100% definitions it should be for things that the game actually track or things that can otherwise very easily be verified.

Quote from Stenirrpg:

Since the views were so varied and there were so many different combinations, I figured this would be somewhat similar to the FFX challenges. Things like No Sphere Grid, or No Items, etc. This, of course, would be on a much smaller scale.

Challenging yourself every now and then by imposing personal handicaps is fine to do on the casual side, however things like this has no place on SDA. When we present runs on one of our pages we want the viewer to understand and know what they are exactly watching. There's probably thousands of different personal challenges one can think of for each game and we are not about to create a new category for each one of them since the majority of these challenges only make sense to the runner him/herself.

Quote from Stenirrpg:

Regarding opening trashcans and such, I understand the comparison, but I don't believe it's a perfect analogy. OoT has required items to get 100% stuck in Chests; Earthbound does not. You could do a run without getting any (other than the Cracked Bat, of course). But, for completeness sake, I figured 100% Presents/Cans/etc. was not too time consuming, and would help ensure that I had enough money or items to survive.

Opening chests in OOT is just a means to getting the needed item/equipment. OOT tracks a fixed amount of unique items and thus those items can be included in a 100% definition. The amount of chests opened is not tracked and therefore it's not part of a 100% definition.

This brings us to the next issue with arbitrary things: verifiability.
How would you even verify that someone did open all possible chests in the entire game? For something to be in a 100% definition it has to be easily verifiable that the objective was actually met. In games which tracks %, the runner just shows off 100% at the end. In FF6 for instance, you can instantly see that they have all characters from the character select screen at the final dungeon and a full list of espers from a quick glance at the esper list. This just doesn't work for things like get one of all items or open all chests when they aren't being tracked by the game in any way.

Re: Getting all the best final equips:
This is also pretty arbitrary. What's the best equip really? For Poo it might be obvious since he only really has one set of equips. But for the rest? Is the All-star bat better or worse?
Getting back to OOT as a comparison since it was already brought up, in this game it's easy to see that the golden gauntlets are the best gauntlets and the 50 arrow quiver is the best quiver etc. These are all tracked by the game inventory in a way that an RPG with hundreds of equips do not.

Mostly agreeing with what __sdfg already brought up. The only of your suggested rules that would work including into a 100% definition would be all photomen since this is actually tracked by the game in a way. This one could still use some discussion though since it could be thought of something akin to "viewing all cutscenes" or something like that which is usually a ridiculous requirement. Also it's not overly easy to verify that someone did get all, but I guess counting them during the credits wouldn't be too much of a hassle.

[quote="Stenirrpg"]To answer your question directly, the reason I put a rule of fighting each kind of enemy was completeness. The point of 100% is to do most of the game, correct?[/quote]
The problem here is that "completeness" is very subjective and means very different things to each viewer. 
We try to avoid including arbitrary things in the definition because they are, well, arbitrary. Why fight one of each enemy but not include obtaining max money? You don't mention visiting every room in the game at least once, wouldn't map completion also be part of it?
When we make 100% definitions it should be for things that the game actually track or things that can otherwise very easily be verified.

[quote="Stenirrpg"]
Since the views were so varied and there were so many different combinations, I figured this would be somewhat similar to the FFX challenges. Things like No Sphere Grid, or No Items, etc. This, of course, would be on a much smaller scale.
[/quote]
Challenging yourself every now and then by imposing personal handicaps is fine to do on the casual side, however things like this has no place on SDA. When we present runs on one of our pages we want the viewer to understand and know what they are exactly watching. There's probably thousands of different personal challenges one can think of for each game and we are not about to create a new category for each one of them since the majority of these challenges only make sense to the runner him/herself.

[quote="Stenirrpg"]
Regarding opening trashcans and such, I understand the comparison, but I don't believe it's a perfect analogy. OoT has required items to get 100% stuck in Chests; Earthbound does not. You could do a run without getting any (other than the Cracked Bat, of course). But, for completeness sake, I figured 100% Presents/Cans/etc. was not too time consuming, and would help ensure that I had enough money or items to survive.
[/quote]
Opening chests in OOT is just a means to getting the needed item/equipment. OOT tracks a fixed amount of unique items and thus those items can be included in a 100% definition. The amount of chests opened is not tracked and therefore it's not part of a 100% definition.

This brings us to the next issue with arbitrary things: verifiability.
How would you even verify that someone did open all possible chests in the entire game? For something to be in a 100% definition it has to be easily verifiable that the objective was actually met. In games which tracks  %, the runner just shows off 100% at the end. In FF6 for instance, you can instantly see that they have all characters from the character select screen at the final dungeon and a full list of espers from a quick glance at the esper list. This just doesn't work for things like get one of all items or open all chests when they aren't being tracked by the game in any way.

Re: Getting all the best final equips:
This is also pretty arbitrary. What's the best equip really? For Poo it might be obvious since he only really has one set of equips. But for the rest? Is the All-star bat better or worse?
Getting back to OOT as a comparison since it was already brought up, in this game it's easy to see that the golden gauntlets are the best gauntlets and the 50 arrow quiver is the best quiver etc. These are all tracked by the game inventory in a way that an RPG with hundreds of equips do not.

Mostly agreeing with what  __sdfg already brought up. The only of your suggested rules that would work including into a 100% definition would be all photomen since this is actually tracked by the game in a way. This one could still use some discussion though since it could be thought of something akin to "viewing all cutscenes" or something like that which is usually a ridiculous requirement. Also it's not overly easy to verify that someone did get all, but I guess counting them during the credits wouldn't be too much of a hassle.

Stenirrpg

2013-04-06 05:41:32 am

Good points. This is the first time I was thinking about running something, so I was surprised there was the any% but no 100%. Then I noticed how much of a debate went on at different forums over what EarthBound 100% was.

I will, of course, take a look at all of those videos and learn as much as I can. I, at first, skipped them, because it sounded like they were glitch runs, which I was attempting to avoid to start with (I've read it's easier to do a non-glitch first, then find glitches that improve it, but I may be wrong on that account).

While I'm probably a bit of a ways off before I would even think of submitting something, I wanted to at least get a locked down definition of what 100% would be here. I understand the decision not to have different runs for different categories that are like the FFX challenges; my decision to state my thoughts that way was motivated more by the fact that those are different elements to the game broken down, and it seemed like a good place to start.

I take it by easily verifiable, you mean that it wouldn't require someone to sit there the entire run counting how many boxes were opened. That certainly makes sense.

I did end up nixing most of the original rules, because I started removing luck-based. Even the enemy spawn is somewhat luck based. As far as getting the "best equips", Poo's would be the easiest right off the bat for the reason you stated - anything that ends in "of Kings". Wouldn't the typical definition of this be simple? Ness would get the Gutsy Bat over the Casey Bat (assuming the math is right, it does over time around three times as much damage, and probably more due to the increase of about 50% on the critical hit rate), Paula would get the Holy Fry Pan, and Jeff would get the Gaia Beam. Ness, Paula, and Jeff would each get a Star Pendant, and then one would get the Pixie's Bracelet, one would get the Cherub's Band, and one would get the Goddess Band. As far as the Other slot, Paula should get the Goddess Ribbon; Jeff and Ness have to fight over who gets the Souvenir Coin and who is stuck with a Shiny Coin. Starmen.net says that Poo can equip Coins, which would mean that he would actually need a Shiny Coin, as it boosts his Defense and Luck by more than his Diadem does. The issue with switching out the Cloak of Kings for the added benefits of a Star Pendant would be the drop of Luck.

There's a lot more that's arbitrary than I realized. Thanks for the wonderful discussion. I've learned a lot!

Good points. This is the first time I was thinking about running something, so I was surprised there was the any% but no 100%. Then I noticed how much of a debate went on at different forums over what EarthBound 100% was.

I will, of course, take a look at all of those videos and learn as much as I can. I, at first, skipped them, because it sounded like they were glitch runs, which I was attempting to avoid to start with (I've read it's easier to do a non-glitch first, then find glitches that improve it, but I may be wrong on that account).

While I'm probably a bit of a ways off before I would even think of submitting something, I wanted to at least get a locked down definition of what 100% would be here. I understand the decision not to have different runs for different categories that are like the FFX challenges; my decision to state my thoughts that way was motivated more by the fact that those are different elements to the game broken down, and it seemed like a good place to start.

I take it by easily verifiable, you mean that it wouldn't require someone to sit there the entire run counting how many boxes were opened. That certainly makes sense.

I did end up nixing most of the original rules, because I started removing luck-based. Even the enemy spawn is somewhat luck based. As far as getting the "best equips", Poo's would be the easiest right off the bat for the reason you stated - anything that ends in "of Kings". Wouldn't the typical definition of this be simple? Ness would get the Gutsy Bat over the Casey Bat (assuming the math is right, it does over time around three times as much damage, and probably more due to the increase of about 50% on the critical hit rate), Paula would get the Holy Fry Pan, and Jeff would get the Gaia Beam. Ness, Paula, and Jeff would each get a Star Pendant, and then one would get the Pixie's Bracelet, one would get the Cherub's Band, and one would get the Goddess Band. As far as the Other slot, Paula should get the Goddess Ribbon; Jeff and Ness have to fight over who gets the Souvenir Coin and who is stuck with a Shiny Coin. Starmen.net says that Poo can equip Coins, which would mean that he would actually need a Shiny Coin, as it boosts his Defense and Luck by more than his Diadem does. The issue with switching out the Cloak of Kings for the added benefits of a Star Pendant would be the drop of Luck.

There's a lot more that's arbitrary than I realized. Thanks for the wonderful discussion. I've learned a lot!

Patashu

2013-04-06 06:27:02 am

100% requirements can be luck based - there is one heart piece in ocarina of time that is completely luck based (dampe heart piece), but it's part of 100% definition anyway.

Stenirrpg

2013-04-06 07:02:02 am

That's true, but based on what I'm hearing heart pieces are counted towards 100% because they are immediately trackable (if you finish the game with the maximum number of hearts, then you got them all). If you go too long on Dampe, it's also much easier to restart.

In EarthBound, enemy spawns are luck-based, so All Enemies wouldn't count. Enemy drops are luck-based, so other than the possibility of "best final equips", that wouldn't count either. At least, this is what I'm hearing and getting from the discussion. True, I could say that there are a finite number of boxes/chests/cans in the game to open, but since it seems like for verifiability that would be a real chore, in a true 100% speedrun, it seems to be going more of the route of skip that. I do think, however, that it is countable, but it would take a lot of work and a listing of all of the boxes in the game to check them off one by one.

The two real questions I have are what sorts of things are usually counted towards 100% that aren't tracked by the game themselves (photomen excluded, as the game tracks it for purposes of which ones to show during the end credits)...and are any of these applicable to EB?

That's true, but based on what I'm hearing heart pieces are counted towards 100% because they are immediately trackable (if you finish the game with the maximum number of hearts, then you got them all). If you go too long on Dampe, it's also much easier to restart.

In EarthBound, enemy spawns are luck-based, so All Enemies wouldn't count. Enemy drops are luck-based, so other than the possibility of "best final equips", that wouldn't count either. At least, this is what I'm hearing and getting from the discussion. True, I could say that there are a finite number of boxes/chests/cans in the game to open, but since it seems like for verifiability that would be a real chore, in a true 100% speedrun, it seems to be going more of the route of skip that. I do think, however, that it is countable, but it would take a lot of work and a listing of all of the boxes in the game to check them off one by one.

The two real questions I have are what sorts of things are usually counted towards 100% that aren't tracked by the game themselves (photomen excluded, as the game tracks it for purposes of which ones to show during the end credits)...and are any of these applicable to EB?

LotBlind

2013-04-06 02:22:58 pm

Quote from Stenirrpg:

what sorts of things are usually counted towards 100% that aren't tracked by the game themselves... and are any of these applicable to EB?

If there was a consensus on what constitutes the side-quests in this game, those would be easy to manually keep track of and verify. I.e all the stuff that involves a decision on the player's part to get involved into something or not. Doesn't really matter IMO what the reward is if there clearly is a reward item (especially if it's a unique item). Maybe all side-quests could be defined as "doing all optional story lines that involve extra dialogue and a reward item" so that would remove having to get the 1/128 items. And you can also think of it from a "what would be fun to do/for viewers to watch" -perspective. Even if you don't end up convincing people of the need to make your definition into an official, submittable category of runs, you'll still get plenty of attention by posting it on the casual side of the forums and upping it on YouTube.

Someone else is doing a Runescape speed run about which it was established early on that it will never be accepted as an SDA run (it's a MMORPG). Actually I think he posts on the PC Games thread despite that. Maybe it's ok for you too because you're still looking for advice for a serious speed run attempt.

Another idea for what is sometimes included into a 100% category would be entering all areas, but aren't most areas actually visited in a standard speed run? Also sounds arbitrary and not particularly interesting. Then there's secret areas, but I don't think the game has any really does it?

[quote="Stenirrpg"]
what sorts of things are usually counted towards 100% that aren't tracked by the game themselves... and are any of these applicable to EB?[/quote]

If there was a consensus on what constitutes the side-quests in this game, those would be easy to manually keep track of and verify. I.e all the stuff that involves a decision on the player's part to get involved into something or not. Doesn't really matter IMO what the reward is if there clearly is a reward item (especially if it's a unique item). Maybe all side-quests could be defined as "doing all optional story lines that involve extra dialogue and a reward item" so that would remove having to get the 1/128 items. And you can also think of it from a "what would be fun to do/for viewers to watch" -perspective. Even if you don't end up convincing people of the need to make your definition into an official, submittable category of runs, you'll still get plenty of attention by posting it on the casual side of the forums and upping it on YouTube.

Someone else is doing a Runescape speed run about which it was established early on that it will never be accepted as an SDA run (it's a MMORPG). Actually I think he posts on the PC Games thread despite that. Maybe it's ok for you too because you're still looking for advice for a serious speed run attempt.

Another idea for what is sometimes included into a 100% category would be entering all areas, but aren't most areas actually visited in a standard speed run? Also sounds arbitrary and not particularly interesting. Then there's secret areas, but I don't think the game has any really does it?