Dr. Mario 64

FrankJones

Edit history:

FrankJones: 2015-08-31 11:26:40 pm

2015-08-31 11:24:44 pm

Quote from yoshifan:

Recently I've been trying Easy and Normal the most, but I would like to try running all four of the difficulties. Competition is perfectly welcome, of course. Smiley

Starting today I'm recording every attempt I make, since these kinds of runs have so much potential for unexpected events. But besides hoping for good setups, my efficiency could also use a bit of work. I tend to leave a column of viruses on the left or right side near the end, so that I end up wasting more capsules than if I had worked evenly. Of course, making your enemy retire is the best way to save time, but I think efficient habits can really make a difference, since you can't end every battle early.

In the meantime, here are my current best times:

Easy - 8:12
Normal - 14:44
Hard - 21:01
S-Hard - 25:22 (no deaths!)

It's hard to set particular expectations right now, but I think 8:00 would be a great target for Easy.

This is an astounding accomplishment. Levels 8 and 9 on S-Hard are unfathomably difficult. In years past, I didn't record myself playing, so I gave it a try just now and watched it afterward, only focusing on what the computer player is doing. As I was watching level 8, I said to myself "How do I possibly win this? He's putting the pieces down lightning fast with no major errors." The only thing I noticed was a high number of moves that caused a lot of drop-lag (or whatever it's called when your own pieces fall a long distance from a dangling clear).

I managed to beat him in 4:21 with only 12 extra pieces on my screen (a full virus pill being counted as 2 pieces).

Next, Vampire Wario. My deathless run was quickly ruined. I was annihilated on my first attempt. Watching it on playback, I am not sure it was possible to have won. The speed and accuracy and intricate combos he made were just not matchable by human hands, eyes, and mind.

After a few more tries, I decided to just set up an umbrella on one side, since I do not see how one can survive his relentless combos at lightning pace. This worked, but it took 6:50.

A couple interesting notes on Vampire Wario on S-hard (and probably hard also, I just haven't reviewed it to see): He does set up some very dangerous combos on which you could deliver a deathblow if the piece falls on the dangerous center tile that he has piled one from the top. I then said to myself, "Yeah but I probably didn't have anything resembling a combo." but that isn't true, I had one set up, and it was a simultaneous clear combo also.

Also, as incredible as the AI vampire Wario is on S-Hard, the algorithm is broken (I assume intentionally?) when it comes to endgame, as there are two glaring weaknesses:

1) A complete inability to attack from the bottom up, which is necessary for him if you managed to ruin one side early with combos, and
2) A baffling tendency in endgame to repeatedly make the best move relative to the colors on the board but irrelevant of whether the pieces being cleared are actually viruses. I watched as he just kept making intricate combos with new pill pieces but wasn't clearing any viruses.

[quote="yoshifan"]Recently I've been trying Easy and Normal the most, but I would like to try running all four of the difficulties.  Competition is perfectly welcome, of course. :)

Starting today I'm recording every attempt I make, since these kinds of runs have so much potential for unexpected events.  But besides hoping for good setups, my efficiency could also use a bit of work.  I tend to leave a column of viruses on the left or right side near the end, so that I end up wasting more capsules than if I had worked evenly.  Of course, making your enemy retire is the best way to save time, but I think efficient habits can really make a difference, since you can't end every battle early.

In the meantime, here are my current best times:

Easy - 8:12
Normal - 14:44
Hard - 21:01
S-Hard - 25:22 (no deaths!)

It's hard to set particular expectations right now, but I think 8:00 would be a great target for Easy.[/quote]

This is an astounding accomplishment.  Levels 8 and 9 on S-Hard are unfathomably difficult.  In years past, I didn't record myself playing, so I gave it a try just now and watched it afterward, only focusing on what the computer player is doing.  As I was watching level 8, I said to myself "How do I possibly win this? He's putting the pieces down lightning fast with no major errors."  The only thing I noticed was a high number of moves that caused a lot of drop-lag (or whatever it's called when your own pieces fall a long distance from a dangling clear).

I managed to beat him in 4:21 with only 12 extra pieces on my screen (a full virus pill being counted as 2 pieces).

Next, Vampire Wario.  My deathless run was quickly ruined.  I was annihilated on my first attempt.  Watching it on playback, I am not sure it was possible to have won.  The speed and accuracy and intricate combos he made were just not matchable by human hands, eyes, and mind.

After a few more tries, I decided to just set up an umbrella on one side, since I do not see how one can survive his relentless combos at lightning pace.  This worked, but it took 6:50.

A couple interesting notes on Vampire Wario on S-hard (and probably hard also, I just haven't reviewed it to see):  He does set up some very dangerous combos on which you could deliver a deathblow if the piece falls on the dangerous center tile that he has piled one from the top.  I then said to myself, "Yeah but I probably didn't have anything resembling a combo." but that isn't true, I had one set up, and it was a simultaneous clear combo also.

Also, as incredible as the AI vampire Wario is on S-Hard, the algorithm is broken (I assume intentionally?) when it comes to endgame, as there are two glaring weaknesses:

1)  A complete inability to attack from the bottom up, which is necessary for him if you managed to ruin one side early with combos, and
2)  A baffling tendency in endgame to repeatedly make the best move relative to the colors on the board but irrelevant of whether the pieces being cleared are actually viruses.  I watched as he just kept making intricate combos with new pill pieces but wasn't clearing any viruses.

FrankJones

2015-09-05 03:58:35 am

I finally managed to finish Super Hard with no deaths.

Super hard is...., well.... super hard. Yoshifan's 25:22 is a superb accomplishment.

I finished level 6 at 17:26 and level 7 at 21:22. I think all but two of these were virus clears. Level 1 was a combo kill around the 1:30 mark, and one of them id levels was a combo kill sometime around 2 minutes. The level 7 in 3:56 was a virus clear, not easy to do on S-hard. That was a rare board in which I think I made zero errors, but also received favorable treatment from the three opponents, who did not combo me very often.

Level 8 and level 9 have absurd difficulty.

Level 8 took 6:10 as we took turns barraging each other with combos, and each has one virus left with 3 to the color. (Luckily?) I got my piece slightly before the AI and was able to get it in place. I say Luckily with the Question mark because I thought it was somewhat unlucky to even have been close to losing, but the AI at that level is unforgiving.

Level 9 took 4:50 and amazingly also came down to the final virus each and final piece each. I had to come from underneath after creating an umbrella, and I got 4 bad pieces in a row when all I needed was a yellow. When I won and heard the round over music I didn't even know who had won, and I initially thought it wasn't me.

Tough, tough game on S-Hard. I think it would be cool if someone submitted a video of a deathless S-hard.

I finally managed to finish Super Hard with no deaths.

Super hard is...., well.... super hard.  Yoshifan's 25:22 is a superb accomplishment.

I finished level 6 at 17:26 and level 7 at 21:22.  I think all but two of these were virus clears.  Level 1 was a combo kill around the 1:30 mark, and one of them id levels was a combo kill sometime around 2 minutes.  The level 7 in 3:56 was a virus clear, not easy to do on S-hard.  That was a rare board in which I think I made zero errors, but also received favorable treatment from the three opponents, who did not combo me very often.

Level 8 and level 9 have absurd difficulty.

Level 8 took 6:10 as we took turns barraging each other with combos, and each has one virus left with 3 to the color.  (Luckily?) I got my piece slightly before the AI and was able to get it in place.  I say Luckily with the Question mark because I thought it was somewhat unlucky to even have been close to losing, but the AI at that level is unforgiving.

Level 9 took 4:50 and amazingly also came down to the final virus each and final piece each.  I had to come from underneath after creating an umbrella, and I got 4 bad pieces in a row when all I needed was a yellow.  When I won and heard the round over music I didn't even know who had won, and I initially thought it wasn't me.

Tough, tough game on S-Hard.  I think it would be cool if someone submitted a video of a deathless S-hard.

FrankJones

2015-09-20 10:15:51 am

Where have all the Dr. Mario 64 players gone?

No one except me has replied to this thread since 2013.

Can someone clarify what the goal should be for submitting a run? Right now we have a confusing situation in which the posted time for story mode hard (24 something) has been claimed to have been beaten by 6 minutes (Yoshifan's 18 minute run), but the link to the video does not work.

I managed a 22:30 on story mode Hard, with no deaths and no resets. The only way to get an 18 minute time is to get incredibly lucky. Yoshifan himself said that levels 5-8 took a total of 4:15. a skilled player could play for years without having that happen.

I am hoping to generate some discussion here on reviving interest in runs of this game. Since Yoshifan doesn't seem to want to submit his videos, and I have one that is 1:40 faster than the one posted here, can I submit it?

Also, since there is no S-hard run posted, can we set some goals for posting that run? for example, "deathless run faster than _____" ?

Where have all the Dr. Mario 64 players gone?

No one except me has replied to this thread since 2013.

Can someone clarify what the goal should be for submitting a run?  Right now we have a confusing situation in which the posted time for story mode hard (24 something) has been claimed to have been beaten by 6 minutes (Yoshifan's 18 minute run), but the link to the video does not work.

I managed a 22:30 on story mode Hard, with no deaths and no resets.  The only way to get an 18 minute time is to get incredibly lucky.  Yoshifan himself said that levels 5-8 took a total of 4:15.  a skilled player could play for years without having that happen.

I am hoping to generate some discussion here on reviving interest in runs of this game.  Since Yoshifan doesn't seem to want to submit his videos, and I have one that is 1:40 faster than the one posted here, can I submit it?

Also, since there is no S-hard run posted, can we set some goals for posting that run?  for example, "deathless run faster than _____" ?

azkiboh

2015-09-20 11:09:12 am

Terribad is as terribad does

I'm kinda new to the whole SDA thing...but nearly 2 min of improvement seems worth cleaning up and submitting to me. Just one persons opinion.

FrankJones

2015-09-20 01:51:30 pm

Quote from azkiboh:

I'm kinda new to the whole SDA thing...but nearly 2 min of improvement seems worth cleaning up and submitting to me. Just one persons opinion.

I think the difficulty in assessing the value of a speedrun in this game lies with the random nature of the events. Sometimes I bombard the CPU with combo after combo, and nothing happens. I find myself asking almost out loud, "Are these combos doing ANYTHING to him?" Other times, a few consecutive combos ends him immediately.

Sometimes you set everything up nicely, and just get one terrible piece after another.

Sometimes the CPU's combos drop garbage in the absolute worst spots, other times they are harmless.

And for reasons I cannot comprehend, the computer seems to have two modes: "relaxed" and "hyper." I can barely concentrate when the CPU is in "hyper" mode because I can hear him moving the pieces at warp speed and I know that one combo after another is about to come raining down on my board. This seems to happen especially frequently toward the end, when my virus are very low - the CPU drops a combo, and while the garbage is falling with agonizing slowness, he places 3 or 4 more pieces, resulting in another combo. And so on. I have had a lot of runs ruined by an end-board sequence that takes forever. For whatever reason, the CPU in the posted 24 minute video does not seem to play with much urgency. Not to detract from the video in any way, but as I was watching it, I thought to myself, "on levels 4 and up, my CPU opponents move the pieces a lot faster than this and do more combos."

And, on level 7, sometimes the opponents destroy each other while dropping nothing on you. During my 22:30 run, This was the case, and I managed a triple kill in 1:15 (approximately).

The point of all this is, the posted video of 24-something by "essentia" is certainly beatable, since I have attained a 22:30. But, her video is almost flawlessly played. There were maybe 5 or 6 mistakes the entire game, which is amazing considering how fast she places the pieces. My piece placement rate is ever so slightly slower. My mistake rate is slightly higher. My 22:30 is not as "clean" as her 24-minute video. The manner in which she plays in her video seems to scream out "I can make the best of whatever pieces I am given, and if this time is beaten, it probably means the person who beat it got better luck." That's certainly true in my case, as I make no claim to have superior play in my video. I just have a faster time.

Then, of course, here's this mysterious 18-minute run whose existence has been discussed here in this thread but for which I can find no video of. I give someone all the props in the world for attaining an 18-minute time on hard mode, but if that is going to be the time to beat, I think we need to see the video.

As for S-hard mode, merely finishing it without dying is extraordinarily difficult. I have accomplished it twice, once at a snail-like 38:00, and another at 29 or 31 minutes (I cannot recall which). I just had an S-hard run end on stage 8 when the CPU dropped something like 30 combos and cleared his board in about 2.5 minutes. There's just nothing you can do against that.

That said, I think SOMEONE should post a deathless S-hard clear, just so other people have something to aim at when goign for the record.

[quote="azkiboh"]I'm kinda new to the whole SDA thing...but nearly 2 min of improvement seems worth cleaning up and submitting to me. Just one persons opinion.[/quote]

I think the difficulty in assessing the value of a speedrun in this game lies with the random nature of the events.   Sometimes I bombard the CPU with combo after combo, and nothing happens.  I find myself asking almost out loud, "Are these combos doing ANYTHING to him?"  Other times, a few consecutive combos ends him immediately.

Sometimes you set everything up nicely, and just get one terrible piece after another.

Sometimes the CPU's combos drop garbage in the absolute worst spots, other times they are harmless.

And for reasons I cannot comprehend, the computer seems to have two modes:  "relaxed" and "hyper."  I can barely concentrate when the CPU is in "hyper" mode because I can hear him moving the pieces at warp speed and I know that one combo after another is about to come raining down on my board.  This seems to happen especially frequently toward the end, when my virus are very low - the CPU drops a combo, and while the garbage is falling with agonizing slowness, he places 3 or 4 more pieces, resulting in another combo.  And so on.  I have had a lot of runs ruined by an end-board sequence that takes forever.   For whatever reason, the CPU in the posted 24 minute video does not seem to play with much urgency.  Not to detract from the video in any way, but as I was watching it, I thought to myself, "on levels 4 and up, my CPU opponents move the pieces a lot faster than this and do more combos."

And, on level 7, sometimes the opponents destroy each other while dropping nothing on you.  During my 22:30 run, This was the case, and I managed a triple kill in 1:15 (approximately).

The point of all this is, the posted video of 24-something by "essentia" is certainly beatable, since I have attained a 22:30.  But, her video is almost flawlessly played.  There were maybe 5 or 6 mistakes the entire game, which is amazing considering how fast she places the pieces.  My piece placement rate is ever so slightly slower.  My mistake rate is slightly higher.  My 22:30 is not as "clean" as her 24-minute video.   The manner in which she plays in her video seems to scream out "I can make the best of whatever pieces I am given, and if this time is beaten, it probably means the person who beat it got better luck."  That's certainly true in my case, as I make no claim to have superior play in my video.  I just have a faster time.

Then, of course, here's this mysterious 18-minute run whose existence has been discussed here in this thread but for which I can find no video of.  I give someone all the props in the world for attaining an 18-minute time on hard mode, but if that is going to be the time to beat, I think we need to see the video.

As for S-hard mode, merely finishing it without dying is extraordinarily difficult.  I have  accomplished it twice, once at a snail-like 38:00, and another at 29 or 31 minutes (I cannot recall which).  I just had an S-hard run end on stage 8 when the CPU dropped something like 30 combos and cleared his board in about 2.5 minutes.   There's just nothing you can do against that.

That said, I think SOMEONE should post a deathless S-hard clear, just so other people have something to aim at when goign for the record.

FrankJones

2015-09-22 03:31:06 pm

I managed a 30:24 on S-hard with no deaths and no resets. Gameplay was solid. Obviously there are going to be mistakes when the CPU is dumping garbage at such a high rate.

FrankJones

2015-09-23 07:03:13 am

AAAAAAAAARGH.

Trying to beat my personal best on S-hard can be so frustrating. I had a good run going (8:19 through the first 4 rounds). Then the CPU went into "you lose" mode.

In the first 1:02, it performed TEN combos on me.

After a 24 second stretch without combos, he then dropped SIX on me in 32 seconds.

Then a relatively quiet 1:06 during which he dropped only two combos,

followed by 6 more in the next 32 seconds. All the while, his board was a complete mess from the combos I was dropping on him)

he then did only one combo in the next 47 seconds,

then proceeded to drop FOURTEEN COMBOS on me in the next 1:08.

halfway through that insane sequence, I had 4 viruses left to his 16.

I never did clear those 4 viruses.