Donkey Kong 64

ING-X

Edit history:

ING-X: 2012-06-18 11:36:56 am

2012-06-18 11:34:12 am

umad

How different would the NMS route be for SS as opposed to with savewarps? I might be interested in doing that one of these days, since DK64 was one of my favorite childhood games and I'd like to be able to do a full run that really does the game justice in a single segment (single segment with resets is too similar to segmented in this game, to the point where I personally think they should be the same category). I think NMS is a really good category for showing off a lot of the game since it does most of the game without being extremely long like 101%.

Manocheese

Edit history:

Manocheese: 2012-06-18 07:39:48 pm

2012-06-18 12:58:57 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

The route would be very similar for a single-segment run. You would have to do the trick to get to Diddy's minigames early in Helm, but other than that, the in-level routes (which make up the vast majority of the planning) would probably be identical. Some of the DK Isles stuff would have to be changed.

ING-X

2012-06-18 01:39:52 pm

umad

Ah, ok. How close is the NMS route to being finalized?

Manocheese

2012-06-18 05:25:03 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Toes has posted preliminary routes for six levels here. They may have to change quite a bit to add or remove GBs. It will be clearer which GBs should be cut once every level has a preliminary route. However, it's been about a month since Toes has posted about the route, so I'm not sure if he's still working on it.

ING-X

2012-06-19 12:28:13 pm

umad

Well, I tried RingRush's new FWG method, and while it never did anything to Game 1, it seems like it completely fucked up Game 2 (which was my 101% file jafksdlfjdsklfjsdklfjsdklfjs). My theory is that if there's files with data in them already it will affect those instead of the empty file.

leftysheroes

2012-06-19 08:23:08 pm

UPDATE: My signal stopped working a while back and I thought at first that I could just play without it since I wasonly getting like 0.1-0.2 seconds worth of lag(its completely unnoticeble on like 98% of the game) but on the parts where it does have an effect(blast barrels,DK Arcade) its absolutely killing me. I have checked pretty much every store that I thought had a chance of selling them and they don't seem to exist anymore. If anyone knows where I can buy one or it there is someone in Pittsburgh who can lend me one it would be appreciated greatly.

Exchord92

2012-06-20 03:29:16 am

Quote from ING-X:

Well, I tried RingRush's new FWG method, and while it never did anything to Game 1, it seems like it completely fucked up Game 2 (which was my 101% file jafksdlfjdsklfjsdklfjsdklfjs). My theory is that if there's files with data in them already it will affect those instead of the empty file.

The FWG always overwrites the file that was loaded or played. So if you play slot 2 in Adventure mode, quit the game and then do the glitch, it will overwrite slot 2. Try loading a file you don't need before going to Monkey Smash: Select that file in Adventure mode, but only look at the stats without actually starting the game.

Here's a video that shows exactly how to overwrite a specific game slot (in this case, slot 3):

ING-X

2012-06-20 05:55:27 am

umad

It overwrote Game 2 even though I picked an empty Game 1. I'm referring to the new method of FWG that RingRush came up with a while back.

Quote:

1. Make sure file is deleted before turning on console
2. Turn on console, pause/a to skip various cutscenes, head to mystery menu
3. Activate Intro Story Glitch
4. Back to main menu, turn off cutscenes, back to main menu, start file 1
5. As soon as mini-intro CS is done save and exit
6. Back to main menu…the DK rap will be playing when you start the main menu which is a nice bonus Wink
7. Head to mystery menu, A+B on Rambi arena
8. Back to main menu, to battle menu, start vs mode (immediately ends) [DK rap is still playing :)]
9. Watch the intro cutscene again (time here doesn't count)
10. Start file, continue as before

I did this with an empty Game 1 and it overwrote game 2 instead. I tested it more than once and it had the same effect every time.

Manocheese

Edit history:

Manocheese: 2012-06-20 08:33:26 pm

Manocheese: 2012-06-20 08:32:58 pm

2012-06-20 08:24:17 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Quote from leftysheroes:

UPDATE: My signal stopped working a while back and I thought at first that I could just play without it since I wasonly getting like 0.1-0.2 seconds worth of lag(its completely unnoticeble on like 98% of the game) but on the parts where it does have an effect(blast barrels,DK Arcade) its absolutely killing me. I have checked pretty much every store that I thought had a chance of selling them and they don't seem to exist anymore. If anyone knows where I can buy one or it there is someone in Pittsburgh who can lend me one it would be appreciated greatly.

I think this is what I have. I have it connected with method 2c here.

Exchord92

2012-06-21 01:43:34 am

Quote from ING-X:

It overwrote Game 2 even though I picked an empty Game 1. I'm referring to the new method of FWG that RingRush came up with a while back.

Quote:

1. Make sure file is deleted before turning on console
2. Turn on console, pause/a to skip various cutscenes, head to mystery menu
3. Activate Intro Story Glitch
4. Back to main menu, turn off cutscenes, back to main menu, start file 1
5. As soon as mini-intro CS is done save and exit
6. Back to main menu…the DK rap will be playing when you start the main menu which is a nice bonus Wink
7. Head to mystery menu, A+B on Rambi arena
8. Back to main menu, to battle menu, start vs mode (immediately ends) [DK rap is still playing :)]
9. Watch the intro cutscene again (time here doesn't count)
10. Start file, continue as before

I did this with an empty Game 1 and it overwrote game 2 instead. I tested it more than once and it had the same effect every time.

My guess is that the game loads a different slot during the Nintendo, Rare and DK TV stuff. Anyway, I'm not sure how entering Adventure mode and quitting the game is supposed to save time. It may skip the cutscene in DK's tree area later but I don't think the play time is reset once you start Monkey Smash. But if you want to overwrite a certain file with this method, select that file after step 6 and before step 8 without starting the game.

[quote="ING-X"]It overwrote Game 2 even though I picked an empty Game 1. I'm referring to the new method of FWG that RingRush came up with a while back.

[quote]1. Make sure file is deleted before turning on console
2. Turn on console, pause/a to skip various cutscenes, head to mystery menu
3. Activate Intro Story Glitch
4. Back to main menu, turn off cutscenes, back to main menu, start file 1
5. As soon as mini-intro CS is done save and exit
6. Back to main menu…the DK rap will be playing when you start the main menu which is a nice bonus Wink
7. Head to mystery menu, A+B on Rambi arena
8. Back to main menu, to battle menu, start vs mode (immediately ends) [DK rap is still playing :)]
9. Watch the intro cutscene again (time here doesn't count)
10. Start file, continue as before[/quote]

I did this with an empty Game 1 and it overwrote game 2 instead. I tested it more than once and it had the same effect every time.[/quote]

My guess is that the game loads a different slot during the Nintendo, Rare and DK TV stuff. Anyway, I'm not sure how entering Adventure mode and quitting the game is supposed to save time. It may skip the cutscene in DK's tree area later but I don't think the play time is reset once you start Monkey Smash. But if you want to overwrite a certain file with this method, select that file after step 6 and before step 8 without starting the game.

RingRush

2012-06-21 02:34:18 am

That version of the FWG doesn't work in Single Segment, since it requires exiting the game. For RTA however, there are two scenarios:

1) Real time: The trick saves something on the order of 10 seconds, since the process of starting the game, exiting, and heading back to Rambi Arena is only a few seconds longer than you would have to wait at the Rambi Arena otherwise. So instead of waiting doing nothing, you sacrificed a few seconds but have already watched the mini-intro cutscene which saves time as soon as you re-enter the file.

2) Game time: After step 5 above, the timer FWG is going to send to the file is set to 0. Using this method, you'll start with a time somewhere in the 50 second range, which means a 0:00 starting time (old method can't get below 0:01). This makes the trick save even more than it would in a real-time optimized run, although it is unclear whether this qualifies as timer manipulation (since when the timer starts was already manipulated to something strange). Personally, I think game time is not fit for an RTA of this game. From an entertainment/speed standpoint, it adds in about 9-10 resets, many of which save only a few seconds of game time at the cost of 35+ seconds real time. Furthermore, timing by game time and allowing resets gives you the ability to retry sections without it counting against your time (such as moonkick to Caves), which seems very contrary to the purpose of the run. Add in the timing issue with FWG and things are kind of a mess. Personally, I just stick to real time: I start my timer at the same time I hit A on the mystery menu to activate the intro story (the start of glitching) and end my timing when the punch cutscene begins after Chunky's 4th hit.

That version of the FWG doesn't work in Single Segment, since it requires exiting the game. For RTA however, there are two scenarios:

1) Real time: The trick saves something on the order of 10 seconds, since the process of starting the game, exiting, and heading back to Rambi Arena is only a few seconds longer than you would have to wait at the Rambi Arena otherwise. So instead of waiting doing nothing, you sacrificed a few seconds but have already watched the mini-intro cutscene which saves time as soon as you re-enter the file.

2) Game time: After step 5 above, the timer FWG is going to send to the file is set to 0. Using this method, you'll start with a time somewhere in the 50 second range, which means a 0:00 starting time (old method can't get below 0:01). This makes the trick save even more than it would in a real-time optimized run, although it is unclear whether this qualifies as timer manipulation (since when the timer starts was already manipulated to something strange). Personally, I think game time is not fit for an RTA of this game. From an entertainment/speed standpoint, it adds in about 9-10 resets, many of which save only a few seconds of game time at the cost of 35+ seconds real time. Furthermore, timing by game time and allowing resets gives you the ability to retry sections without it counting against your time (such as moonkick to Caves), which seems very contrary to the purpose of the run. Add in the timing issue with FWG and things are kind of a mess. Personally, I just stick to real time: I start my timer at the same time I hit A on the mystery menu to activate the intro story (the start of glitching) and end my timing when the punch cutscene begins after Chunky's 4th hit.

Manocheese

2012-06-21 10:36:45 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

The first trick in this video could be useful in NMS or 101%. You could do it after turning in blueprints in Japes 2.

cfox7

2012-06-21 10:57:45 pm

you already go by cranky with tiny for a balloon and there is also a fairy by water that you can STVW through to that same gb. It does look like it could save some travel time though with some re-routing. very cool find.

Manocheese

2012-06-22 01:49:51 am

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Yeah, the 101% Japes 2 route would have to be changed quite a bit to work the trick in, and it might be faster not to use it. It's probably more useful in NMS, since there's no reason for Tiny to go to the area with the fairy.

cfox7

2012-06-22 09:28:15 am

i wonder where else there could be walls like this really high up that the developers didn't bother fully creating.

leftysheroes

2012-06-22 07:42:06 pm

Quote from cfox7:

i wonder where else there could be walls like this really high up that the developers didn't bother fully creating.

Angry Aztec: Aside from an OoB near the beginning of the stage that les you quickly skip to one of the large open areas without going through the tunnel, I don't really see anything being all that useful.

Frantic Factory: There are 2 very useful possible skips here. Number one is opening room to production room. Landing high enough to activate the W4 pad would be a major bonus. Number 2 is Chunky cage or DK arcade room to the room with the block tower. Naturally I have spend a pretty good amount of time trying to find a way to do these breaks without success. Maybe that wierd mid-air high jump thing will help.

Gloomy Galleon: Let's hurry up and find something because it sure is SUPER ANNOYING having to open up those gates LOLOLOL!!!

Fungi Forest: You can skip some of the gates here by using STVW but it is generally slower to do so. If there were other OoB's here it probably would be the same for those to. There are alsh rocketbarrels in 3 of the 4 main areas and as glitched as this game is I don't think Rare would leave a false wall in a room where the rocketbarrel is available.

Crystal Caves: You can use STVW to get OoB but the death zones which warp you back to the beginning after getting Oob are very unforgiving here.

Creepy Castle: Maybe you can get OoB in DK's room in the crypt and avoid having to pull the levers?

Hideout Helm: Aside from a OoB in the blast-o-matic room to access Diddy's room without all the current Oob nonsense I can't think of anything that would be useful.

P.S. given the laziness that seems to have gone on in the production of this game I feel that the loading one for Creepy Castle has to be stashed in DK Isles somewhere. Even though I am 100% sure it can't possibly be there I would probably laugh for days straight if the Castle loading zone ended up being in the so called "secret room" that like everyone knows about(given how many people have played around in there the chance of a loading zone in there escaping detection would be pretty much zero). I really do feel that there has to be a physical loading zone for Castle stashed somewhere.

[quote="cfox7"]i wonder where else there could be walls like this really high up that the developers didn't bother fully creating.[/quote]

Angry Aztec: Aside from an OoB near the beginning of the stage that les you quickly skip to one of the large open areas without going through the tunnel, I don't really see anything being all that useful.

Frantic Factory: There are 2 very useful possible skips here. Number one is opening room to production room. Landing high enough to activate the W4 pad would be a major bonus. Number 2 is Chunky cage or DK arcade room to the room with the block tower. Naturally I have spend a pretty good amount of time trying to find a way to do these breaks without success. Maybe that wierd mid-air high jump thing will help.

Gloomy Galleon: Let's hurry up and find something because it sure is SUPER ANNOYING having to open up those gates LOLOLOL!!!

Fungi Forest: You can skip some of the gates here by using STVW but it is generally slower to do so. If there were other OoB's here it probably would be the same for those to. There are alsh rocketbarrels in 3 of the 4 main areas and as glitched as this game is I don't think Rare would leave a false wall in a room where the rocketbarrel is available.

Crystal Caves: You can use STVW to get OoB but the death zones which warp you back to the beginning after getting Oob are very unforgiving here.

Creepy Castle: Maybe you can get OoB in DK's room in the crypt and avoid having to pull the levers?

Hideout Helm: Aside from a OoB in the blast-o-matic room to access Diddy's room without all the current Oob nonsense I can't think of anything that would be useful.

P.S. given the laziness that seems to have gone on in the production of this game I feel that the loading one for Creepy Castle has to be stashed in DK Isles somewhere. Even though I am 100% sure it can't possibly be there I would probably laugh for days straight if the Castle loading zone ended up being in the so called "secret room" that like everyone knows about(given how many people have played around in there the chance of a loading zone in there escaping detection would be pretty much zero). I really do feel that there has to be a physical loading zone for Castle stashed somewhere.

cfox7

2012-06-26 12:00:17 am

I didn't realize how many possible places there would be haha. Would be cool to have more tricks like this in 101%. btw Lefty, what is your best 101% Time in one sitting?

leftysheroes

Edit history:

leftysheroes: 2012-06-26 06:11:44 pm

leftysheroes: 2012-06-26 06:09:50 pm

2012-06-26 06:05:22 pm

Quote from cfox7:

I didn't realize how many possible places there would be haha. Would be cool to have more tricks like this in 101%. btw Lefty, what is your best 101% Time in one sitting?

Best single segment 101% is 7:39 but its definitely possible to do better than that.

For segmented I think it was like in the 7:28 range give or take 2-3 minutes but I don't really remember since that was over a year ago.

Out of all those things I suggested the Factory ones are the only ones that are really worth looking for since they would save so much time(A skip from the opening room to the factory room that also activates W4 early would easily save 2 minutes. Skipping into the storage room I'm really not sure since it would cause problems with Tiny's banana although if both tricks were found I assume you could use the first skip to get a quick 15 for her at some point by breaking into Snide's room and then exitwarping out.

Even though the Forest STVW's don't really help in the 101% I will make a video of them since they may be useful in a NMS.

[quote="cfox7"]I didn't realize how many possible places there would be haha. Would be cool to have more tricks like this in 101%. btw Lefty, what is your best 101% Time in one sitting?[/quote]

Best single segment 101% is 7:39 but its definitely possible to do better than that.

For segmented I think it was like in the 7:28 range give or take 2-3 minutes but I don't really remember since that was over a year ago.
 
Out of all those things I suggested the Factory ones are the only ones that are really worth looking for since they would save so much time(A skip from the opening room to the factory room that also activates W4 early would easily save 2 minutes. Skipping into the storage room I'm really not sure since it would cause problems with Tiny's banana although if both tricks were found I assume you could use the first skip to get a quick 15 for her at some point by breaking into Snide's room and then exitwarping out.

Even though the Forest STVW's don't really help in the 101% I will make a video of them since they may be useful in a NMS.

Manocheese

Edit history:

Manocheese: 2012-06-28 02:20:49 am

2012-06-28 12:35:59 am

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

I recorded some new stuff, including a use for the skid jump:

I also investigated the GB from Tiny's shooting game in Factory. It turns out that even if you glitch into the spot it comes from, it's not there (see #6 in the video).

Exchord92

2012-06-28 07:28:29 am

I found a nice 101% / NMS timesaver in Gloomy Galleon. After completing the barrel blast course, hold Z and mash the C-up button. If you're fast enough, the cutscene with the seal coming out of the cage will be skipped by DK playing his instrument in mid-air. Also, you'll find that there are two seals; one in the area with the lighthouse, still swimming somewhere near the wall, and one in front of the seal race area, waiting to give you his GB.

cfox7

2012-06-28 10:26:33 am

Nice finds, do you think you can walk back out through the gate to bean stalk in fungi if you haven't opened them yet?

cfox7

2012-06-28 10:27:37 am

Quote from Exchord92:

I found a nice 101% / NMS timesaver in Gloomy Galleon. After completing the barrel blast course, hold Z and mash the C-up button. If you're fast enough, the cutscene with the seal coming out of the cage will be skipped by DK playing his instrument in mid-air. Also, you'll find that there are two seals; one in the area with the lighthouse, still swimming somewhere near the wall, and one in front of the seal race area, waiting to give you his GB.

Also this seems very cool ill definitely give it a try on my next run

Manocheese

Edit history:

Manocheese: 2012-06-28 01:18:07 pm

2012-06-28 01:17:47 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Quote from cfox7:

Nice finds, do you think you can walk back out through the gate to bean stalk in fungi if you haven't opened them yet?

I just tested it and the gate is solid from both sides.

Quote from Exchord92:

I found a nice 101% / NMS timesaver in Gloomy Galleon. After completing the barrel blast course, hold Z and mash the C-up button. If you're fast enough, the cutscene with the seal coming out of the cage will be skipped by DK playing his instrument in mid-air. Also, you'll find that there are two seals; one in the area with the lighthouse, still swimming somewhere near the wall, and one in front of the seal race area, waiting to give you his GB.

Nice find. I tried it and the timing seems tricky. Here's a video:

ING-X

Edit history:

ING-X: 2012-06-28 03:52:59 pm

2012-06-28 03:52:40 pm

umad

So according to Flip SS w/ resets runs for DK64 will indeed be timed manually in order to account for the time it takes to reset. In light of this I will be doing SS w/ resets if I do a no major skips run of DK64. However this probably means the route will need to be adjusted still.

leftysheroes

2012-06-28 05:59:18 pm

That trick to skip the seal cutscene is pretty nice. There are a few other cutscenes that may be skippable with this method:
- Freeing the llama in Aztec.
- Setting the bird free in Aztec.
- Toy monster forming in Factory(you can lead him around little while fighting him to get the bananas.
- Opening cutscene of spider boss in Forest.
- Highly unlikely but perhaps the opening cutscene of the actual boss fights(Mad Jack in particular).

I do know that it is possible to get every item in Crystal Caves without having to watch the cutscene of the stalactites in Crystal Caves but it involves playing your instrument every 15 seconds or so. The fact that you can also cancel that cutscene with the instrument seems to argue for the possiblilty of the others.