Discussion on the Out of Bounds rule

2006-07-30 10:52:23 am

Quote:

I have a problem with this methodology.

Basically what you're saying is "you can abuse glitches all you like up until this point, then no more." Aren't you then basically putting an arbitrary limit on how low the speedrun can go, which is not linked to either the length of the game or the skill of the runner?

Any rule of this sort has to be steadfast, and apply in all cases. Either the "anything goes" category is permitted for all games, or none.

I'm sure my point has already been brought up at length, but I felt I needed to get my views clear on the issue as well.

For the record, I'd prefer to see a run be done as fast as possible utilising any (legitimate) means available instead of playing through in the intended manner because it "makes sense" from the character's point of view.

To split hairs, from the characters point of view, glitches don't exist, and things are done as programmers, and game designers intended for them to be done.

The only reason I listed that in the first place was not to place limits, but to put levels of severity on how bad a video would be abusing glitches.

I personally think it would lead to an easier debate, compared to earlier posts when there was no standard. After all, a flimsy standard to relate to is better than complete chaos ~_~;

And just to cement my argument...

Quote:

...I think if we had some sort of guidlines like those, we could judge how abusive a trick was going out of bounds.

And

Quote:

I don't think that should be allowed at all.

Next time, I'll make sure that my english doesn't hinge on interpreting one word. I skim through topics too ~_~

[quote]

I have a problem with this methodology.

Basically what you're saying is "you can abuse glitches all you like up until this point, then no more." Aren't you then basically putting an arbitrary limit on how low the speedrun can go, which is not linked to either the length of the game or the skill of the runner?

Any rule of this sort has to be steadfast, and apply in all cases. Either the "anything goes" category is permitted for all games, or none.

I'm sure my point has already been brought up at length, but I felt I needed to get my views clear on the issue as well.

For the record, I'd prefer to see a run be done as fast as possible utilising any (legitimate) means available instead of playing through in the intended manner because it "makes sense" from the character's point of view.[/quote]

To split hairs, from the characters point of view, glitches don't exist, and things are done as programmers, and game designers intended for them to be done.

The only reason I listed that in the first place was not to place limits, but to put levels of severity on how bad a video would be abusing glitches.

I personally think it would lead to an easier debate, compared to earlier posts when there was no standard.  After all, a flimsy standard to relate to is better than complete chaos ~_~;

And just to cement my argument...
[quote]...I think if we had some sort of guidlines like those, we could judge how abusive a trick was going out of bounds.[/quote]

And

[quote] I don't [b]think[/b] that should be allowed at all.[/quote]

Next time, I'll make sure that my english doesn't hinge on interpreting one word.  I skim through topics too ~_~

ZooM

Edit history:

ZooM: 2006-08-07 02:42:44 am

2006-08-07 01:49:58 am

But why can't Radix just turn this into a separate category? Didn't he do that with 'death abuse' and 'save warping'?

I remember in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes it was possible to skip the DS2 battle by going out of bounds. It saved some time and I thought it was much cooler to see than any fast DS2 battle. I mean, come on, anything like that is pure ownage and should be appreciated in some way.

You know, sometimes I really wonder if Radix's view on this has to do with a past metroid2002/samus.co.uk conflict more than anything else. I'm not saying that's how it is, though.

Edit: I see now that categorizing it has already been discussed. Anyway, I certainly think that a separate category is the way to go, as Gorash said.

nate

2006-08-07 03:43:02 am

radix and i of course predate metroid 2002, considering i met him at the same time as i met the rest of the sequence breakers, and then i later created metroid 2002. you are correct in that there was a prevailing anti-secret world sentiment at m2k2 until a few months ago, but i think that this sentiment here has largely become a separate thing from m2k2 as of now. the bottom line here is that if radix thinks secret worlds are crap, then why should he spend his (very) valuable time helping other people post videos with them in it? i mean, isn't that what metroid 2002 is for?

DJGrenola

2006-08-07 04:11:57 am

guffaw

I should probably chip in at this point ...

I think it's important to remember that in Metroid Prime 1 secret worlds were, and are, pretty much useless in a speed run context (although sparky is casually investigating a new any% route that gets ice beam early by means of the well known IBBF out-of-bounds path, but that's something of a digression). Because of this there was a very strong belief amongst the hardcore speed running community that secret worlds were a stupid waste of time, a position that was frankly not without justification.

Prime 2 changed all that, given that the lowest % in that game is now believed to be 16 using secret worlds (out-of-bounds methods), whereas it is 21 if you remove them from the equation, and an any % speed run that used secret worlds would beat the current any % run by some margin, due to the DS2 skip that you mentioned and also the possibility of collecting a power bomb expansion very early in Dynamo Chamber.

Now that out-of-bounds is useful both in terms of % drop and in terms of pure speed, I think the anti-SW sentiment of which you speak has definitely faded somewhat. In fact the most comprehensive list of Prime 1's secret worlds (which for the most part aren't even useful) can be found at, you guessed it, m2k2 (and I know this because I spent weeks making the damn thing). As far as Echoes is concerned, there are three speed runs currently being produced which use out-of-bounds (a single-segment any%, a no space jump run, and my very own 17% run, coming eventually to a web server near you).

I was the first to produce a speed run on a Prime game that used secret worlds, when I did a proof-of-concept "who cares" 20% (just FWIW you can find this at http://www.archive.org/details/MetroidEchoes_20p_244 ). I did this run in the knowledge that it wouldn't count as a record at SDA, and I'm working on 17% knowing again that it probably won't count as a record at SDA. I have, and have always had, the utmost respect for the job that Radix does, and frankly I was just pleased that he'd allow it on archive.org, never mind SDA.

I agree that there is a case for allowing out-of-bounds as a separate category (after all we now have "abuses death", "save warping" et al). Even though it would benefit me enormously for this to happen, my position is still that if Radix doesn't want them, I will respect this decision simply because I appreciate the amount of work he does to keep this site operational, and such runs will still be completed and published whether they make it onto the news page of SDA or not.

I should probably chip in at this point ...

I think it's important to remember that in Metroid Prime 1 secret worlds were, and are, pretty much useless in a speed run context (although sparky is casually investigating a new any% route that gets ice beam early by means of the well known IBBF out-of-bounds path, but that's something of a digression). Because of this there was a very strong belief amongst the hardcore speed running community that secret worlds were a stupid waste of time, a position that was frankly not without justification.

Prime 2 changed all that, given that the lowest % in that game is now believed to be 16 using secret worlds (out-of-bounds methods), whereas it is 21 if you remove them from the equation, and an any % speed run that used secret worlds would beat the current any % run by some margin, due to the DS2 skip that you mentioned and also the possibility of collecting a power bomb expansion very early in Dynamo Chamber.

Now that out-of-bounds is useful both in terms of % drop and in terms of pure speed, I think the anti-SW sentiment of which you speak has definitely faded somewhat. In fact the most comprehensive list of Prime 1's secret worlds (which for the most part aren't even useful) can be found at, you guessed it, m2k2 (and I know this because I spent weeks making the damn thing). As far as Echoes is concerned, there are three speed runs currently being produced which use out-of-bounds (a single-segment any%, a no space jump run, and my very own 17% run, coming eventually to a web server near you).

I was the first to produce a speed run on a Prime game that used secret worlds, when I did a proof-of-concept "who cares" 20% (just FWIW you can find this at http://www.archive.org/details/MetroidEchoes_20p_244 ). I did this run in the knowledge that it wouldn't count as a record at SDA, and I'm working on 17% knowing again that it probably won't count as a record at SDA. I have, and have always had, the utmost respect for the job that Radix does, and frankly I was just pleased that he'd allow it on archive.org, never mind SDA.

I agree that there is a case for allowing out-of-bounds as a separate category (after all we now have "abuses death", "save warping" et al). Even though it would benefit me enormously for this to happen, my position is still that if Radix doesn't want them, I will respect this decision simply because I appreciate the amount of work he does to keep this site operational, and such runs will still be completed and published whether they make it onto the news page of SDA or not.

Lazylen

2006-08-08 03:58:44 am

fuck you i wont do what you tell me

Addressing the issue of High Speed Halo's videos also being hosted here (or moved, im not up-to-date), there is going to be even more argument over this topic. There will be questions about superbounces, the infamous skulls, meaning Sputnik and the one that gives you overshield for dealing damage... it will also deal with glitches that make marines (and yourself, as im sure there's a glitch that does so) temporarily invincible, climbing on top of levels with abuse of how vehicles move (ghosts climbing delta halo).

I think that an overhaul of the rules may be imminent, but that exceptions really shouldnt be made if or when the rules are changed; out of the level is out of the level, and you basically know when you are.

and as much as i'd like to see Grenola's 17% run here, i dont think that this is the place for it.

slYnki

2006-08-08 06:44:39 am

XXY

Dear god I've held off this reply for so long for no reason o_O

Quote:

No, they're not. Half-life (and all quake engine games) have to have sealed levels. You can't fall out of the map. He's just in the sky, which is used as a visibility hint in the bsp creator. Therefore when you're inside a sky brush, the engine gets "confused" and isn't sure what to draw.

Well actually, you CAN fall out of the map (Residue Processing), but I get your point. So would literally walking on top of the dam on an invisible floor in Surface Tension be considered more out of bounds than the skyboxes?

Quote:

If you've read this far, I congradulate you for enduring my crummy tale of plot holes and spelling errors... But I think if we had some sort of guidlines like those, we could judge how abusive a trick was going out of bounds. Or we could add an extra category (although that would be more work for Radix and Nate...). Just ideas.

Yeah, that's about what I was trying to get across in a round about kind of way. I don't want to put more work on Radix's shoulders, but these are just ideas.

Quote:

If a game can be taken apart by glitching through everything to the ending like exploration zone, the logical consequence is to add one and only one additional category named "anything goes".

True. I always hear about runners redoing their runs to make them better, and I always see people running their games like crazy people, trying to make the runs perfect, but it's annerving, knowing there's a sweet little glitch out there, but you can't use it. Of course, in most cases runners are told to redo their runs because they either outright suck, or Radix just thinks they could be better, but you get my point XD!

Quote:

Like I've said before the only tricks I would ban is any trick that lets you go through any wall at will and tricks that allow players to go into freespace for extenive periods.

Yes.

Quote:

While this all sounds nice and everything...where would the skill come in if you just glitch through 3/4 of the game? You could easily say that "finding the glitch and implementing it requires skill."

That's why there should be guidelines to depict just how abusive said glitch is. I would also hate to watch a run that's 3/4 walking in a void. I like to see skill. The odd glitch can be very entertaining as well, though.

Quote:

Besides the typical SDA resistance to change, this really would create a lot of problems since a lot of existing runs could be done better now.

How is that a problem? Existing runs being done better = great. Although, if this does end up turning into a new category, old runs would stay put, abusive runs would just kinda, "snuggle up" to the real stuff.

Quote:

so what's the difference between a pile of rocks blocking your path and a chasm blocking your path? is the root of this issue found in the term 'clipping'?

Nice o.o;

Quote:

Yes. And you still HAVE to control Gordon in a way so you gain speed.

We all know how grueling it can be to push down a button and move your mouse in the direction of that strafe = )

Scripts to me are goofy, only when they're used in Half-Life 1. I mean, to each his own, but I generally don't relish the idea of them. If I ever attempt a run of Unreal, I'll be using a jumping script to make "frogjumping" infinitely easier, but that's only because frogjumping is BITCHING hard. I'll still have to jump, I just won't have as much pressure on me. You have to draw the line on scripts when it becomes an issue of you not actually doing anything, and letting the scripts do everything else for you. They just make ingame techniques a tad easier.

But in the case of Half-Life scripts, anything that eases bunnyhopping, or allows for faster tau speed with less ammo, or hinders the height of a mortor jump.... I prefer to do everything in Half-Life normally. The only script I would ever implement in a Half-Life run would be to uncap the bunnyhopping speed. Then I'd just do the hopping myself with good ol' spacebar XD!

The mousewheel was ok for awhile, but I found when I spammed it too much, it's like I was jumping too "heavily" or something. My screen would do a weird shake, and I would lose some speed. Especially in Blue-Shift v.1.1.1.0, where you crouch automatically when you jump, that was a MAJOR problem. You have to bounce once on the ground for your speed to be optimal and perfect, not a whole bunch of times on the spot, or unclearly on the spot, rather. See, spinning the mousewheel rapidly on the spot will help your timing, but it's more likely the second or third spin of the wheel will make you jump, not the first spin. But anyways, enough about bunnyhopping, time for my REAL area of expertise =D

Quote:

Addressing the issue of High Speed Halo's videos also being hosted here (or moved, im not up-to-date), there is going to be even more argument over this topic. There will be questions about superbounces, the infamous skulls, meaning Sputnik and the one that gives you overshield for dealing damage... it will also deal with glitches that make marines (and yourself, as im sure there's a glitch that does so) temporarily invincible, climbing on top of levels with abuse of how vehicles move (ghosts climbing delta halo).

First, the runs hosted on SDA were old and tattered, while new runs brimming with energy were sitting patiently over at HSH. Videos, which, in a couple weeks to my knowledge, will be sitting here on SDA. Then the entire table (the amount of runs is fucking disgusting). Second, there won't be any discussion on superbounces or the skulls, because there's nothing to discuss. Superbounces are just glitches, and they aren't used in any level to get out of said level. The only level that utilizes a superbounce is Metropolis to get on top of the scarab early. HSH already has a strict set of rules for the skulls, and that's that you can't pick up whatever skulls you please, then run through a level. You can, however, pick up the skull when you're on whatever level said skull is on, then continue on with its effects. No one has picked up a skull in a regular run, BUT, the new project going on over there, "Halo 2 Done Segmented", we're going to be picking up some of the skulls, because the shortcuts available to us on later levels will be awesome. And, just for a little bit of information:

Sputnik: Easier physics

Blackeye: Overcharged shields when you blunt strike something

There isn't a single run on HSH that features invincible marines either. It's possible to make them invincible, and to even clone them, but yeah, this has nothing to do with being Out of Bounds. As for climbing on top of Delta Halo (featured), that isn't out of bounds, you're just on top of the cliff, no biggie. Unless you're jumping on light fixtures on top of the map, I don't think you'll see anyone walking in a void for long periods of time to skip a huge portion of the game. Then again, you CAN fly a banshee outside the level, but that run is coming later <_<;

Also, Bungie isn't too concerned with out of bounds areas anymore. That's become a relative term for them now. If you saw some of the glitches in the Halo games, you'd shit your pants.

Dear god I've held off this reply for so long for no reason o_O

[quote]No, they're not. Half-life (and all quake engine games) have to have sealed levels. You can't fall out of the map. He's just in the sky, which is used as a visibility hint in the bsp creator. Therefore when you're inside a sky brush, the engine gets "confused" and isn't sure what to draw.[/quote]
Well actually, you CAN fall out of the map (Residue Processing), but I get your point. So would literally walking on top of the dam on an invisible floor in Surface Tension be considered more out of bounds than the skyboxes?

[quote]If you've read this far, I congradulate you for enduring my crummy tale of plot holes and spelling errors... But I think if we had some sort of guidlines like those, we could judge how abusive a trick was going out of bounds. Or we could add an extra category (although that would be more work for Radix and Nate...). Just ideas.[/quote]
Yeah, that's about what I was trying to get across in a round about kind of way. I don't want to put more work on Radix's shoulders, but these are just ideas.

[quote]If a game can be taken apart by glitching through everything to the ending like exploration zone, the logical consequence is to add one and only one additional category named "anything goes".[/quote]
True. I always hear about runners redoing their runs to make them better, and I always see people running their games like crazy people, trying to make the runs perfect, but it's annerving, knowing there's a sweet little glitch out there, but you can't use it. Of course, in most cases runners are told to redo their runs because they either outright suck, or Radix just thinks they could be better, but you get my point XD!

[quote]Like I've said before the only tricks I would ban is any trick that lets you go through any wall at will and tricks that allow players to go into freespace for extenive periods.[/quote]
Yes.

[quote]While this all sounds nice and everything...where would the skill come in if you just glitch through 3/4 of the game? You could easily say that "finding the glitch and implementing it requires skill."[/quote]
That's why there should be guidelines to depict just how abusive said glitch is. I would also hate to watch a run that's 3/4 walking in a void. I like to see skill. The odd glitch can be very entertaining as well, though.

[quote]Besides the typical SDA resistance to change, this really would create a lot of problems since a lot of existing runs could be done better now.[/quote]
How is that a problem? Existing runs being done better = great. Although, if this does end up turning into a new category, old runs would stay put, abusive runs would just kinda, "snuggle up" to the real stuff.

[quote]so what's the difference between a pile of rocks blocking your path and a chasm blocking your path? is the root of this issue found in the term 'clipping'?[/quote]
Nice o.o;

[quote]Yes. And you still HAVE to control Gordon in a way so you gain speed.[/quote]
We all know how grueling it can be to push down a button and move your mouse in the direction of that strafe = )

Scripts to me are goofy, only when they're used in Half-Life 1. I mean, to each his own, but I generally don't relish the idea of them. If I ever attempt a run of Unreal, I'll be using a jumping script to make "frogjumping" infinitely easier, but that's only because frogjumping is BITCHING hard. I'll still have to jump, I just won't have as much pressure on me. You have to draw the line on scripts when it becomes an issue of you not actually doing anything, and letting the scripts do everything else for you. They just make ingame techniques a tad easier.

But in the case of Half-Life scripts, anything that eases bunnyhopping, or allows for faster tau speed with less ammo, or hinders the height of a mortor jump.... I prefer to do everything in Half-Life normally. The only script I would ever implement in a Half-Life run would be to uncap the bunnyhopping speed. Then I'd just do the hopping myself with good ol' spacebar XD!

The mousewheel was ok for awhile, but I found when I spammed it too much, it's like I was jumping too "heavily" or something. My screen would do a weird shake, and I would lose some speed. Especially in Blue-Shift v.1.1.1.0, where you crouch automatically when you jump, that was a MAJOR problem. You have to bounce once on the ground for your speed to be optimal and perfect, not a whole bunch of times on the spot, or unclearly on the spot, rather. See, spinning the mousewheel rapidly on the spot will help your timing, but it's more likely the second or third spin of the wheel will make you jump, not the first spin. But anyways, enough about bunnyhopping, time for my REAL area of expertise =D

[quote]Addressing the issue of High Speed Halo's videos also being hosted here (or moved, im not up-to-date), there is going to be even more argument over this topic. There will be questions about superbounces, the infamous skulls, meaning Sputnik and the one that gives you overshield for dealing damage... it will also deal with glitches that make marines (and yourself, as im sure there's a glitch that does so) temporarily invincible, climbing on top of levels with abuse of how vehicles move (ghosts climbing delta halo).[/quote]
First, the runs hosted on SDA were old and tattered, while new runs brimming with energy were sitting patiently over at HSH. Videos, which, in a couple weeks to my knowledge, will be sitting here on SDA. Then the entire table (the amount of runs is fucking disgusting). Second, there won't be any discussion on superbounces or the skulls, because there's nothing to discuss. Superbounces are just glitches, and they aren't used in any level to get out of said level. The only level that utilizes a superbounce is Metropolis to get on top of the scarab early. HSH already has a strict set of rules for the skulls, and that's that you can't pick up whatever skulls you please, then run through a level. You can, however, pick up the skull when you're on whatever level said skull is on, then continue on with its effects. No one has picked up a skull in a regular run, BUT, the new project going on over there, "Halo 2 Done Segmented", we're going to be picking up some of the skulls, because the shortcuts available to us on later levels will be awesome. And, just for a little bit of information:

Sputnik: Easier physics

Blackeye: Overcharged shields when you blunt strike something

There isn't a single run on HSH that features invincible marines either. It's possible to make them invincible, and to even clone them, but yeah, this has nothing to do with being Out of Bounds. As for climbing on top of Delta Halo (featured), that isn't out of bounds, you're just on top of the cliff, no biggie. Unless you're jumping on light fixtures on top of the map, I don't think you'll see anyone walking in a void for long periods of time to skip a huge portion of the game. Then again, you CAN fly a banshee outside the level, but that run is coming later <_<;

Also, Bungie isn't too concerned with out of bounds areas anymore. That's become a relative term for them now. If you saw some of the glitches in the Halo games, you'd shit your pants.

Lazylen

2006-08-08 07:46:18 pm

fuck you i wont do what you tell me

i do some of the glitches in the halo games. o_O

but only the multiplayer ones, for the most part (getting outside of burial mounds, terminal, etc...)

its fun splattering around invincible marines in metropolis... i once covered an entire room with blood from some marine with a ghost. Tongue

that one video where the guy traverses the ravine in the Covie level before quarantine zone... That. is awesome.

I'd consider taking a ghost on top of delta halo being out of the level, but i guess since it still requires some skill to get back in (terminal falls), it is allowed...

i dont think that secret worlds in prime should be allowed, because you are thoroughly out of the level.

slYnki

2006-08-08 08:23:04 pm

XXY

Quote:

I'd consider taking a ghost on top of delta halo being out of the level

I cannot possibly wrap my head around this, but whatever.

dex

2006-08-08 09:40:14 pm

Invisible avatar

Quote:

We all know how grueling it can be to push down a button and move your mouse in the direction of that strafe = )

Well, i didn't mean they were HARD. Hell, it's bloody, painfully easy. It's just that when you are trying to run the level, it can be a little of a pain in an ass, as it blows your concentration a little.

Quote:

Scripts to me are goofy, only when they're used in Half-Life 1. I mean, to each his own, but I generally don't relish the idea of them. If I ever attempt a run of Unreal, I'll be using a jumping script to make "frogjumping" infinitely easier, but that's only because frogjumping is BITCHING hard. I'll still have to jump, I just won't have as much pressure on me. You have to draw the line on scripts when it becomes an issue of you not actually doing anything, and letting the scripts do everything else for you. They just make ingame techniques a tad easier.

But in the case of Half-Life scripts, anything that eases bunnyhopping, or allows for faster tau speed with less ammo, or hinders the height of a mortor jump.... I prefer to do everything in Half-Life normally. The only script I would ever implement in a Half-Life run would be to uncap the bunnyhopping speed. Then I'd just do the hopping myself with good ol' spacebar XD!

Well, i agree. It's quite easy even with a trusty old spacebar in HL. When i'm focusing on it, i hit every jump with ease. But, there's one thing stopping me from using it in a run, or even during casual play. What is it? Well, i learned bhopping in Quake, which is suprisingly near to HL really. The only difference is, when you bunnyhop in Quake, you don't have to hit jump in the exact moment. You can press it a lot before hitting the ground from a jump. If you hold it, you'll jump off. But in HL, it doesn't work that way. You have to be precise. So, when i'm not focusing on bhopping, i miss jumps the entire time. That's why i use one Spider's script in HL. I couldn't bunnyhop and do ANYTHING at the same time. I'm too used to Quake bhop ^^
I do not use techniques from other scripts you mentioned though. It makes things too easy >_<

Quote:

The mousewheel was ok for awhile, but I found when I spammed it too much, it's like I was jumping too "heavily" or something. My screen would do a weird shake, and I would lose some speed. Especially in Blue-Shift v.1.1.1.0, where you crouch automatically when you jump, that was a MAJOR problem. You have to bounce once on the ground for your speed to be optimal and perfect, not a whole bunch of times on the spot, or unclearly on the spot, rather. See, spinning the mousewheel rapidly on the spot will help your timing, but it's more likely the second or third spin of the wheel will make you jump, not the first spin.

I don't use wheel for the same reason. Though, from what i've seen on one of my friends, the more you practice, the lighter the jump with wheel is.

[quote]We all know how grueling it can be to push down a button and move your mouse in the direction of that strafe = )
[/quote]
Well, i didn't mean they were HARD. Hell, it's bloody, painfully easy. It's just that when you are trying to run the level, it can be a little of a pain in an ass, as it blows your concentration a little.
[quote]Scripts to me are goofy, only when they're used in Half-Life 1. I mean, to each his own, but I generally don't relish the idea of them. If I ever attempt a run of Unreal, I'll be using a jumping script to make "frogjumping" infinitely easier, but that's only because frogjumping is BITCHING hard. I'll still have to jump, I just won't have as much pressure on me. You have to draw the line on scripts when it becomes an issue of you not actually doing anything, and letting the scripts do everything else for you. They just make ingame techniques a tad easier.

But in the case of Half-Life scripts, anything that eases bunnyhopping, or allows for faster tau speed with less ammo, or hinders the height of a mortor jump.... I prefer to do everything in Half-Life normally. The only script I would ever implement in a Half-Life run would be to uncap the bunnyhopping speed. Then I'd just do the hopping myself with good ol' spacebar XD!
[/quote]

Well, i agree. It's quite easy even with a trusty old spacebar in HL. When i'm focusing on it, i hit every jump with ease. But, there's one thing stopping me from using it in a run, or even during casual play. What is it? Well, i learned bhopping in Quake, which is suprisingly near to HL really. The only difference is, when you bunnyhop in Quake, you don't have to hit jump in the exact moment. You can press it a lot before hitting the ground from a jump. If you hold it, you'll jump off. But in HL, it doesn't work that way. You have to be precise. So, when i'm [b]not[/b] focusing on bhopping, i miss jumps the entire time. That's why i use one Spider's script in HL. I couldn't bunnyhop and do ANYTHING at the same time. I'm too used to Quake bhop ^^
I do not use techniques from other scripts you mentioned though. It makes things too easy >_<
[quote]The mousewheel was ok for awhile, but I found when I spammed it too much, it's like I was jumping too "heavily" or something. My screen would do a weird shake, and I would lose some speed. Especially in Blue-Shift v.1.1.1.0, where you crouch automatically when you jump, that was a MAJOR problem. You have to bounce once on the ground for your speed to be optimal and perfect, not a whole bunch of times on the spot, or unclearly on the spot, rather. See, spinning the mousewheel rapidly on the spot will help your timing, but it's more likely the second or third spin of the wheel will make you jump, not the first spin.[/quote]
I don't use wheel for the same reason. Though, from what i've seen on one of my friends, the more you practice, the lighter the jump with wheel is.

Phauxe

2006-08-08 09:43:51 pm

Quote:

i dont think that secret worlds in prime should be allowed, because you are thoroughly out of the level.

All the more reason to set guidlines, it removes personal opinion (after they're set of course) and allows us to look at things more objectively ~_~

DJGrenola

Edit history:

DJGrenola: 2006-08-09 05:59:04 am

2006-08-09 05:57:45 am

guffaw

Well, I'll throw in another $0.02 I guess.

I think if the out of bounds rule were to be relaxed at all, it would be pretty unfair if it was done in such a way as to exclude prime secret worlds. Do SWs make it possible to walk through miles of void to get to the end of the game without doing anything ? No, because in order to move from one room to the next you have to stand atop one of the doors between rooms and manipulate the room loader into loading the next room, usually a non-trivial process. Do they make the game easier ? I can pretty much categorically state, having already done one speed run that uses them, that the answer is a resounding no. If any OOB is allowed, I challenge anyone to provide a decent argument as to why SWs shouldn't also be allowed. (I'd still completely expect OOB to be a separate category, however).

I'm also having a slightly hard time believing that scripts (which have a distinct TAS flavour to me) are somehow more legitimate than OOB. It's easy to argue that script use, being an intrinsic part of a game engine, is OK. But then OOB is also an intrinsic part of a game engine. Cheat codes are also a part of some game engines. You can see where I'm going with this.

It's important to remember that Radix has famously stated on several occasions that he wants to keep the rules as simple and all-encompassing as possible. Once we go down the route of "oh OOB is OK for this selection of games over here but not OK for this selection of games over here" things end up like twin galaxies. If the simplest way of preventing a large class of dumb trivial speedups is completely to ban OOB, then that seems fair enough in the interests of simplicity - but even then there is a grey area. For example I've always felt that the half-life 1 and 2 skywalking tricks should strictly be banned under OOB, because they differ from prime secret world usage in a way that seems very much to me like a convenient technicality - but it's never seemed like something that was worth rocking the boat over, because I can still do runs and publish them whether they break SDA rules or not, and low% tends to be something of a niche interest anyway.

Well, I'll throw in another $0.02 I guess.

I think if the out of bounds rule were to be relaxed at all, it would be pretty unfair if it was done in such a way as to exclude prime secret worlds. Do SWs make it possible to walk through miles of void to get to the end of the game without doing anything ? No, because in order to move from one room to the next you have to stand atop one of the doors between rooms and manipulate the room loader into loading the next room, usually a non-trivial process. Do they make the game easier ? I can pretty much categorically state, having already done one speed run that uses them, that the answer is a resounding no. If any OOB is allowed, I challenge anyone to provide a decent argument as to why SWs shouldn't also be allowed. (I'd still completely expect OOB to be a separate category, however).

I'm also having a slightly hard time believing that scripts (which have a distinct TAS flavour to me) are somehow more legitimate than OOB. It's easy to argue that script use, being an intrinsic part of a game engine, is OK. But then OOB is also an intrinsic part of a game engine. Cheat codes are also a part of some game engines. You can see where I'm going with this.

It's important to remember that Radix has famously stated on several occasions that he wants to keep the rules as simple and all-encompassing as possible. Once we go down the route of "oh OOB is OK for this selection of games over here but not OK for this selection of games over here" things end up like twin galaxies. If the simplest way of preventing a large class of dumb trivial speedups is completely to ban OOB, then that seems fair enough in the interests of simplicity - but even then there is a grey area. For example I've always felt that the half-life 1 and 2 skywalking tricks should strictly be banned under OOB, because they differ from prime secret world usage in a way that seems very much to me like a convenient technicality - but it's never seemed like something that was worth rocking the boat over, because I can still do runs and publish them whether they break SDA rules or not, and low% tends to be something of a niche interest anyway.

nate

2006-08-09 08:02:53 am

only thing i have to say about that is that you can never ignore the culture/history of a given segment of the population (for example, what grew up around metroid prime after it came out, the earliest extant glimpse of which can be seen today at m2k2). if most people around metroid prime think that secret worlds are crap, then probably you aren't going to see the superstrate organization (sda) allowing secret worlds in runs: it would not be in sda's interests to do so. these things change over time, however, as you pointed out in your earlier post, so i think it's possible that secret worlds might be allowed one day for prime 2. however, this would not necessarily mean all out-of-bounds travel would be allowed, for example in alttp. radix's rules ideal is just that - an ideal.

DJGrenola

2006-08-09 03:28:00 pm

guffaw

Quote:

only thing i have to say about that is that you can never ignore the culture/history of a given segment of the population (for example, what grew up around metroid prime after it came out, the earliest extant glimpse of which can be seen today at m2k2). if most people around metroid prime think that secret worlds are crap, then probably you aren't going to see the superstrate organization (sda) allowing secret worlds in runs: it would not be in sda's interests to do so.

Perhaps I should make myself more clear - I'm not demanding that prime/echoes SWs should be acceptable SDA material, because I gave up worrying about that some time ago, and expecting the world to agree with your viewpoint (read: my viewpoint) all the time is an exercise in futility. The point I'm making is that if Radix wants to ban prime/echoes secret world usage (which is entirely his call, of course, and it's his site, so fair enough), I think it would be very difficult to find a generalised set of rules which would explicitly allow "beneficial" OOB traversal in some games but explicitly disallow "evil" OOB traversal like secret worlds in prime, without resorting to twin galaxies style per-game guidelines. His assertion that the half life engines have completely sealed levels has proved a good way to achieve this balance so far, but as others have pointed out, this system may begin to crumble if more popular runs come in that use/abuse [depending on your viewpoint ;)] OOB in some way.

I really don't want to make a big issue out of this btw, or seem like I'm being aggressive about it, because I think the site as a whole is more important than whether controversial run X is legal or not, even if run X happens to be one of mine. Wink

I'm a big picture kind of guy, but you probably know that.

[quote]only thing i have to say about that is that you can never ignore the culture/history of a given segment of the population (for example, what grew up around metroid prime after it came out, the earliest extant glimpse of which can be seen today at m2k2). if most people around metroid prime think that secret worlds are crap, then probably you aren't going to see the superstrate organization (sda) allowing secret worlds in runs: it would not be in sda's interests to do so.[/quote]

Perhaps I should make myself more clear - I'm not demanding that prime/echoes SWs should be acceptable SDA material, because I gave up worrying about that some time ago, and expecting the world to agree with your viewpoint (read: my viewpoint) all the time is an exercise in futility. The point I'm making is that if Radix wants to ban prime/echoes secret world usage (which is entirely his call, of course, and it's his site, so fair enough), I think it would be very difficult to find a generalised set of rules which would explicitly allow "beneficial" OOB traversal in some games but explicitly disallow "evil" OOB traversal like secret worlds in prime, without resorting to twin galaxies style per-game guidelines. His assertion that the half life engines have completely sealed levels has proved a good way to achieve this balance so far, but as others have pointed out, this system may begin to crumble if more popular runs come in that use/abuse [depending on your viewpoint ;)] OOB in some way.

I really don't want to make a big issue out of this btw, or seem like I'm being aggressive about it, because I think the site as a whole is more important than whether controversial run X is legal or not, even if run X happens to be one of mine. ;) I'm a big picture kind of guy, but you probably know that.

comeasur337

2006-08-09 03:54:19 pm

One Man Army

While I don't agree with the rules seemingly being different for similar glitches/tricks in certain games, I do think there is a solution to this argument which might please everyone, or at least be justified enough to not argue it over and over again. I also don't think we've found that solution, and it may be some time until we do, but I'll try to put some thoughts down to hopefully inspire something in others.

Some games have had tricks found which utilise "Out of Bounds" tricks (I don't agree about that being the correct term, because as long as the game still works, you really are still "In the bounds of it", but that's another argument) which have significantly improved the time, quality, and difficulty of runs. While many of these games may have been contested for a long time before those tricks were found (ex. Perfect Dark), people still compete and contest their runs so that they will be the FASTEST. Whether these tricks are considered to be legitimate, allowed, etc. is an opinion left up to the player/audience. While a general consensus opinion would be a good option for deciding if a run should go up, it's not always possible, as not everybody is intelligible about a certain game.

I certainly understand why people are both for and against certain runs being allowed. We're all gamers and we all enjoy playing and watching games, but we also have strong opinions on how those games should be played. I think it's within the best interests of everyone if there is a common rule for every game, not swaying between allowing or disallowing similar tricks, but with the variety of games and techniques, that may not be possible.

Personally, I think that any of the tricks discussed so far in this thread and the others that I have seen in other threads should be allowed, but under certain circumstances:

-There should be a "trick-less" run which doesn't use the trick in question.

-The run including the trick MUST include a (lengthy) explanation, perhaps including the history of the trick and how it differs from the normal run.

-The video of the trick should be of very good quality, and the execution should not show many faults. Show that it isn't a freak occurance and that it is merely a new way to play the game.

These are just my thoughts, surely different from others, but I feel that the site is missing out on a lot of things not allowing runs like Perfect Dark or others which may fall under the same scrutiny.

While I don't agree with the rules seemingly being different for similar glitches/tricks in certain games, I do think there is a solution to this argument which might please everyone, or at least be justified enough to not argue it over and over again.  I also don't think we've found that solution, and it may be some time until we do, but I'll try to put some thoughts down to hopefully inspire something in others.

Some games have had tricks found which utilise "Out of Bounds" tricks (I don't agree about that being the correct term, because as long as the game still works, you really are still "In the bounds of it", but that's another argument) which have significantly improved the time, quality, and difficulty of runs.  While many of these games may have been contested for a long time before those tricks were found (ex. Perfect Dark), people still compete and contest their runs so that they will be the FASTEST.  Whether these tricks are considered to be legitimate, allowed, etc. is an opinion left up to the player/audience.  While a general consensus opinion would be a good option for deciding if a run should go up, it's not always possible, as not everybody is intelligible about a certain game.

I certainly understand why people are both for and against certain runs being allowed.  We're all gamers and we all enjoy playing and watching games, but we also have strong opinions on how those games should be played.  I think it's within the best interests of everyone if there is a common rule for every game, not swaying between allowing or disallowing similar tricks, but with the variety of games and techniques, that may not be possible.

Personally, I think that any of the tricks discussed so far in this thread and the others that I have seen in other threads should be allowed, but under certain circumstances:

-There should be a "trick-less" run which doesn't use the trick in question.

-The run including the trick MUST include a (lengthy) explanation, perhaps including the history of the trick and how it differs from the normal run.

-The video of the trick should be of very good quality, and the execution should not show many faults.  Show that it isn't a freak occurance and that it is merely a new way to play the game.

These are just my thoughts, surely different from others, but I feel that the site is missing out on a lot of things not allowing runs like Perfect Dark or others which may fall under the same scrutiny.

Amazing Ampharos

2006-08-21 11:17:01 am

The thing is you always get some gray area, and there's a lot of stuff allowed in some games that isn't allowed in others. My favorite example of strictness is Zelda:lttp. Not only do you have the exploration zone, which is basically an instant win, but you also have things like the death mountain decent that aren't really abusive at all(it's basically doing the same thing that you do in early shadow temple in lttp excpet in 2d). You don't even glitch through the barrier; you glitch on top of it and jump down. That land you are on looking ugly shouldn't be a discriminating factor, nor should the weird stuff that happens should you foolishly go north/warp back to the light world. Actually, OoT vs lttp is the classic example. In OoT a ton of silly stuff is allowed, and it feels like lttp is having a few things banned just because it's 2d and has some weird code that is prone to causing graphical errors.

I would agree with the entertainment idea, and separate catagories could be really quite cool for it. Even the exploration zone in lttp could be used for a good speedrun. Just define beating the game as beating Ganon and then walking north out of the room instead of simply triggering the ending credits and things get cool. I'd watch that, and I'm sure a lot of other people would too. I can only imagine the route on a LA run with screenwarping that aims to beat Dethyl as fast as possible.

So yeah, I advocate just adding a new catagory for applicable games "with ridiculous glitch abuse".

Also, on the note of truly leaving the game world, the exploration zone in lttp doesn't leave the game world at all; it just puts you in a weird plane, like the opposite of being on top of the sky. I have truly left the game world in lttp by glitching on top of the boundary around Misery Mire with the world confusion glitch and heading south. The game actually crashes rather softly and just leaves you with a soft hum that reminds me of running water. And the inevitable black screen. Not fair at all because I could have used that to go to DW Zora's River where King Zora is in phase 1. Too bad that place doesn't exist... Note doing this in the light world ends you up in the area under the bridge, but it's so unstable due to your inproper entry to a place with very weird coding in the first place that you'll quickly trigger either an infinite loop or a crash, and no sprites will load either way. You can also truly exit the game world by entering the segundary exploration zone and exiting it. Instead of looping around itself like the primary does, it just crashes the game as you go somewhere that does not exist.

I mean, you're always walking a fine line with glitches, and I see the way to deal with it that makes everyone happy is a separate catagory for the ridiculously abusive stuff. I can't say I'd even count that as the main displayed time; it would just be fun to watch, which was the point of the runs in the first place.

The thing is you always get some gray area, and there's a lot of stuff allowed in some games that isn't allowed in others.  My favorite example of strictness is Zelda:lttp.  Not only do you have the exploration zone, which is basically an instant win, but you also have things like the death mountain decent that aren't really abusive at all(it's basically doing the same thing that you do in early shadow temple in lttp excpet in 2d).  You don't even glitch through the barrier; you glitch on top of it and jump down.  That land you are on looking ugly shouldn't be a discriminating factor, nor should the weird stuff that happens should you foolishly go north/warp back to the light world.  Actually, OoT vs lttp is the classic example.  In OoT a ton of silly stuff is allowed, and it feels like lttp is having a few things banned just because it's 2d and has some weird code that is prone to causing graphical errors.

I would agree with the entertainment idea, and separate catagories could be really quite cool for it.  Even the exploration zone in lttp could be used for a good speedrun.  Just define beating the game as beating Ganon and then walking north out of the room instead of simply triggering the ending credits and things get cool.  I'd watch that, and I'm sure a lot of other people would too.  I can only imagine the route on a LA run with screenwarping that aims to beat Dethyl as fast as possible.

So yeah, I advocate just adding a new catagory for applicable games "with ridiculous glitch abuse".

Also, on the note of truly leaving the game world, the exploration zone in lttp doesn't leave the game world at all; it just puts you in a weird plane, like the opposite of being on top of the sky.  I have truly left the game world in lttp by glitching on top of the boundary around Misery Mire  with the world confusion glitch and heading south.  The game actually crashes rather softly and just leaves you with a soft hum that reminds me of running water.  And the inevitable black screen.  Not fair at all because I could have used that to go to DW Zora's River where King Zora is in phase 1.  Too bad that place doesn't exist...  Note doing this in the light world ends you up in the area under the bridge, but it's so unstable due to your inproper entry to a place with very weird coding in the first place that you'll quickly trigger either an infinite loop or a crash, and no sprites will load either way.  You can also truly exit the game world by entering the segundary exploration zone and exiting it.  Instead of looping around itself like the primary does, it just crashes the game as you go somewhere that does not exist.

I mean, you're always walking a fine line with glitches, and I see the way to deal with it that makes everyone happy is a separate catagory for the ridiculously abusive stuff.  I can't say I'd even count that as the main displayed time; it would just be fun to watch, which was the point of the runs in the first place.

Lazylen

2006-08-24 12:23:08 am

fuck you i wont do what you tell me

maybe there could just be a new category in itself, being a "no holds barred" sort of thing, allowing anything that will get the game done faster and then some.

the problem with that is that the games that entirely abuse those glitches will overshadow the "legitimate" runs, as they will have faster times.

nate

2006-08-24 03:37:35 am

it will also thus reduce the reputation of sda in the minds of people who like to be entertained when watching videos.

Amazing Ampharos

2006-08-25 03:58:48 am

I would consider all out glitch catagories to not really qualify for the #1 speed spot but instead to simply be there as an alternate side catagory. In all honesty, watching all out abuse is entertaining, especially when you still have the "real" run right there. Like, don't count them when figuring what the fastest time for the game is to post next to the title but just include them at the bottom of the list as a side catagory.

Manocheese

2006-08-25 04:06:55 am

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Quote:

I would consider all out glitch catagories to not really qualify for the #1 speed spot but instead to simply be there as an alternate side catagory. In all honesty, watching all out abuse is entertaining, especially when you still have the "real" run right there. Like, don't count them when figuring what the fastest time for the game is to post next to the title but just include them at the bottom of the list as a side catagory.

I like this idea. Having a hard and fast "no out-of-bounds" rule really restricts runs. The only problem I see is determining whether or not something uses boundary abuse.

petrie911

2006-08-25 04:16:06 am

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

You know, a lot of things that are banned for "boundary violation" really violate mysterious teleporting. Take ALttP's exploration glitch. The problem here isn't really that you are beyond the walls; the problem is that you suddenly (and rather mysteriously) have teleported to the Triforce room. Meanwhile, a Secret World in MP, for example, isn't exactly very mysterious. you go over a wall and walk into another room. Not really that unreasonable. You just aren't using the door.

nate

2006-08-25 04:37:36 am

it looks like shit though and it's usually quite boring.

petrie911

2006-08-25 04:43:28 am

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

Well, I think a low% run of MP2 with secret worlds would be very interesting, as it allows you to skip more than just the Grapple Beam.

Amazing Ampharos

2006-08-25 08:40:24 am

All of lttp's glitches become tools of excellence if you just define beating the game as defeating Ganon instead of triggering the ending credits. Both are plausible ways to do it; the latter is just more interesting. In my experience, the only ones really boring to watch are the ones which circumvent all actual playing of the game, and those usually can be ignored by simply redefining beating the games in question by slaying the final boss instead of triggering the ending credits(typically one implied the other, but with these glitches you have to distinguish). I'm still mulling over exactly how I would go about speedrunning lttp with full glitch abuse if beating the game were defined as beating Ganon(or walking north out of the room after beating Ganon; doesn't matter so long as beating him is part of the requirement). It's an amazingly difficult thing to route plan around, especially when you have to worry about such things as whether the sprites will be intactive when you hop into a dungeon or whether you'll get stuck behind crystal switches you have no means to change. Avoiding getting stuck in a wall can be difficult if you don't know what you are doing. In many ways, the route planning side of it is far more difficult, and running it can be much harder at points as wrong moves don't cost time, they get the game stuck in an infinite loop, and you find yourself against lategame bosses while you are ludicrisly underequipped.

As per the glitch graphics, different people take it different ways. In some ways it's ugly to see these malformed sprites and blobs of nonsense that shouldn't exist and objects behaving in ways radically different than the way they should(Grandma Urula attacks!), but in other ways it is an exciting thing. It's very hard to predict what is going to happen watching a run like that as the image of the world itself is clouded in insanity; watching the character move through it is like watching a character in a horror film walk through a dark forest. You know horrible things lie beyond your sight, but you have to trust the person to know what they are doing to navigate the incomprehensible maze. Ok, I'm romanticizing glitch abuse, but I can say this. Everyone has a different standard of beauty so you can't universally call it ugly(I see a sort of beauty in the glitch sprites), and it is almost never boring to watch as you are seeing your favorite games be twisted in ways you never imagined. In almost all games, there is still a very real element of skill in using the glitches correctly and still actually completing the game. I mean, let's use the lttp example saying we defined beating the game in such a way that defeating Ganon were required:

First of all, to win the Ganon fight, you need a sword of level 2 or higher, the bow and silver arrows, and either the lanturn or the fire rod.

To get into the Ganon fight, you need to clear Ganon's Tower.

In order to ascend Ganon's Tower, even with glitches(at least glitches you can do on a real console), you need the hookshot and fire.

In order to get the Hookshot, you need the flippers which in turn cost 500 rupees and cannot be gotten before you return Zelda to Sanctuary.

In order to get the silver arrows, you must save the smithy's partner and complete Misery Mire and the Ice Palace.

In order to correctly enter Misery Mire so crystal 6 drops, you need Ether which requires either the Book of Mudora/level2 or higher sword/pegausus boots or beating a boss to activate the Ether glitch. You also need either the Pegasus Boots or the Hookshot to clear the first room. Furthermore, in order to even get to the entrance to use Ether, you need the Titan's Mitts and the activated flute. You will need to get the Cane of Somaria within the dungeon to finish it.

In order to clear Ice Palace, you need the fire rod and the magic hammer as well as either flippers or the magic mirror.

In order to rescue the smithy's partner, you need just the magic mirror(world confusion glitch and complicated abuse).

In order to be able to actually win the fight with Ganon, not being a bunny is needed. You had better get the Moon Pearl.

Um, that's like every item in the game, and you're fighting Ganon with 6 hearts at most. That's a narrow margin for error if I do say. I don't claim it should be compared to the actual lttp speedrun types as that would be ludicris, but I'm just saying it could be of benefit to this site to allow runs like this to be around, if not competing with the standard runs for best time. I know Link's Awakening stands for a similar insanity with screen warping, and I'm sure a lot of games I don't know about or can't think about stand to have some pretty insane stunts in them too. I used lttp as my example because that's the game I'm most farmiliar with. I in no means am trying exclusively to advocate it; I'm just talking about the game I know about.

All of lttp's glitches become tools of excellence if you just define beating the game as defeating Ganon instead of triggering the ending credits.  Both are plausible ways to do it; the latter is just more interesting.  In my experience, the only ones really boring to watch are the ones which circumvent all actual playing of the game, and those usually can be ignored by simply redefining beating the games in question by slaying the final boss instead of triggering the ending credits(typically one implied the other, but with these glitches you have to distinguish).  I'm still mulling over exactly how I would go about speedrunning lttp with full glitch abuse if beating the game were defined as beating Ganon(or walking north out of the room after beating Ganon; doesn't matter so long as beating him is part of the requirement).  It's an amazingly difficult thing to route plan around, especially when you have to worry about such things as whether the sprites will be intactive when you hop into a dungeon or whether you'll get stuck behind crystal switches you have no means to change.  Avoiding getting stuck in a wall can be difficult if you don't know what you are doing.  In many ways, the route planning side of it is far more difficult, and running it can be much harder at points as wrong moves don't cost time, they get the game stuck in an infinite loop, and you find yourself against lategame bosses while you are ludicrisly underequipped.

As per the glitch graphics, different people take it different ways.  In some ways it's ugly to see these malformed sprites and blobs of nonsense that shouldn't exist and objects behaving in ways radically different than the way they should(Grandma Urula attacks!), but in other ways it is an exciting thing.  It's very hard to predict what is going to happen watching a run like that as the image of the world itself is clouded in insanity; watching the character move through it is like watching a character in a horror film walk through a dark forest.  You know horrible things lie beyond your sight, but you have to trust the person to know what they are doing to navigate the incomprehensible maze.  Ok, I'm romanticizing glitch abuse, but I can say this.  Everyone has a different standard of beauty so you can't universally call it ugly(I see a sort of beauty in the glitch sprites), and it is almost never boring to watch as you are seeing your favorite games be twisted in ways you never imagined.  In almost all games, there is still a very real element of skill in using the glitches correctly and still actually completing the game.  I mean, let's use the lttp example saying we defined beating the game in such a way that defeating Ganon were required:

First of all, to win the Ganon fight, you need a sword of level 2 or higher, the bow and silver arrows, and either the lanturn or the fire rod.

To get into the Ganon fight, you need to clear Ganon's Tower.

In order to ascend Ganon's Tower, even with glitches(at least glitches you can do on a real console), you need the hookshot and fire.

In order to get the Hookshot, you need the flippers which in turn cost 500 rupees and cannot be gotten before you return Zelda to Sanctuary.

In order to get the silver arrows, you must save the smithy's partner and complete Misery Mire and the Ice Palace.

In order to correctly enter Misery Mire so crystal 6 drops, you need Ether which requires either the Book of Mudora/level2 or higher sword/pegausus boots or beating a boss to activate the Ether glitch.  You also need either the Pegasus Boots or the Hookshot to clear the first room.  Furthermore, in order to even get to the entrance to use Ether, you need the Titan's Mitts and the activated flute.  You will need to get the Cane of Somaria within the dungeon to finish it.

In order to clear Ice Palace, you need the fire rod and the magic hammer as well as either flippers or the magic mirror.

In order to rescue the smithy's partner, you need just the magic mirror(world confusion glitch and complicated abuse).

In order to be able to actually win the fight with Ganon, not being a bunny is needed.  You had better get the Moon Pearl.

Um, that's like every item in the game, and you're fighting Ganon with 6 hearts at most.  That's a narrow margin for error if I do say.  I don't claim it should be compared to the actual lttp speedrun types as that would be ludicris, but I'm just saying it could be of benefit to this site to allow runs like this to be around, if not competing with the standard runs for best time.  I know Link's Awakening stands for a similar insanity with screen warping, and I'm sure a lot of games I don't know about or can't think about stand to have some pretty insane stunts in them too.  I used lttp as my example because that's the game I'm most farmiliar with.  I in no means am trying exclusively to advocate it; I'm just talking about the game I know about.