Diablo 2 LoD: 100% 8-player-teamrun planning thread

2009-11-23 03:52:12 pm

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

Javazon is also good for killing act bosses, with the bow-switch glitched charged strike. But needs a fanaticism pala, or a shitton of ias.

Lag.Com

2009-11-23 04:53:09 pm

sda loyalist

The paladin I was playing in d24p was planned to go Thorns -> Fanaticism with Zeal. I think it'd still work but obviously only when paired with Necro when exploring

FraGFroG

Edit history:

FraGFroG: 2009-12-10 06:40:44 am

2009-11-23 05:28:15 pm

OK, let me start to clear things up about the strategy. We WILL be able to reach sub-2-hours with this strategy and sub-90-minutes is also quite feasible if we optimize enough... Zurreco and zoonel you must be joking about the sub-Siykos-time, or do you really mean it serious? If so ROFL is my answer to that estimate... Wink

First of all here are the characters for this strategy:
1 Meteor/Fb-sorc: Skills
1 Blizzard/Glacial Spike/Static-sorc: Skills
1 Blizzard/Glacial Spike/Static-sorc: Skills
1 Nova/Static-sorc: Skills
1 Frozen Orb/cold mastery/Static-sorc: Skills
1 Fire Blast/WoF/Death Sentry/Shadowmaster/BoS/CoS/Mb-Assassin: Skills
1 Holy Fire/Zeal/Holy Shield/Vigor/Meditation/Conviction-Paladin: Skills
1 Lightning Fury/Charged Strike/Pierce/Valkyrie-Amazon: Skills

The basic idea of this setup is to fully abuse static + finishing skills in normal and nightmare. If you combine that with 4 seperate 2-player-teams (1 static-sorc + 1 finishing character each team) always exping the best-xp-areas around you can get some INSANE fast leveling done. One of the 2-player-teams (the highest one always) will then be responsible for proceeding the act with the necessary quests. The last leveling (45-59) is then also done with insane speed in the Lost City/Ancient Tunnels in hell, which is just the best leveling areas of the whole game (MUCH better than Hell-Baalrunexp if you manipulate them). You can manage to get up to FOURTEEN bosses in just those two tiny areas alone (ancient tunnels are not much bigger than Lut Gholein). And the ancient tunnels is a level 85 area, so the xp given for those bosses is insane too (I'm talking about ~5 levels per ~2-minute-run), also they don't really have much resistances, so you can kill them quite easily.

Here are the best 2-player-teams for normal we could come up with:
assa + orb-sorc, static (good area-dmg, team for mass killing, fallen camps/flayer/etc.)
ama + nova-sorc, static (good area-dmg, team for mass killing, fallen camps/flayer/etc.)
fire-sorc + lightning-sorc, static (good boss-killer-team, team for Tristram/Tower/etc.)
pala + blizz-sorc, static (good boss-killer-team, team for Tristram/Tower/etc.)

And these are the best 2-player-teams for nightmare we could come up with:
assa + orb-sorc, static (good area-dmg, team for mass killing, fallen camps/flayer/etc.)
ama + nova-sorc, static (good area-dmg, team for mass killing, fallen camps/flayer/etc.)
fire-sorc + blizz-sorc, static (good boss-killer-team, team for nm-massboss-areas)
pala + lightning-sorc, static (good boss-killer-team, team for nm-massboss-areas)

Now some words on the items: The only feasible way to get decent equipment in a speedrun is by using runewords. For those runewords we can get 8 bigger runes in hellforge norm/nm each and some smaller runes from countess-runs in normal/nightmare.

With those hellforge/countess-runes, we plan on getting decent equipment for 3 characters and some more stuff for the others:
- Meteor/Fb-sorc
- Blizzard-sorc
- Lightning-sorc

And 8 more items: 1 ShaelEth-Shield for the Paladin (maxblock is easily achievable), +2 Conviction Szepter for the Paladin, +3 offensive Aura Amulet for the Paladin (both items to get maximum -resi on Conviction), Peace-Armor for the Amazon, +3 Java Gloves and/or Javelins for the Amazon, TirRal-Staff for the Assassin, 2 TalEth-Armors for the teleporting sorcs (assassin and amazon at start).

So what runewords/items does the Meteor/Fb-sorc need?:
- TirRal (Leaf) in +2 or +3 fireball-staff: Staff bought/found in act 2 norm, sockets --> act 5 quest 1, Tir from Countess norm, Ral from act 5 quest 2 norm.
- PulRalSol (Enlightenment) in Breast Plate: Breast Plate bought/found in act 2 norm, sockets --> act 5 quest 1, Pul from Hellforge nm, Ral from act 5 quest 2 norm, Sol from Hellforge nm
- +3 Fireskill-Amulet: cubed with 3 hellforge-pgs from ilvl-60-amulet - Baal norm and all monster from CS nm on can drop those amulets.
- +2 Fireskill rare-circlet: imbueable from Charsi in nightmare on level 33

What about the Blizzard-sorc?:
- +3 Blizzard-Orb: From Anya norm or bought/found somewhere.
- RalOrtTal in Large Shield: Large Shield bought/found from act 2 norm, sockets --> act 5 quest 1, act 5 quest 2 for the runes.
- PulRalSol (Enlightenment) in Breast Plate: Breast Plate bought/found in act 2 norm, sockets --> act 5 quest 1, Pul from Hellforge nm, Ral from act 5 quest 2 norm, Sol from Hellforge nm
- +3 Coldskill-Amulet: cubed with 3 hellforge-pgs from ilvl-60-amulet - Baal norm and all monster from CS nm on can drop those amulets.
- +2 Coldskill rare-circlet: imbueable from Charsi in nightmare on level 33

What about the Lightning-sorc?:
- LumIoSolEth (Memory) in +3 Lightning-Staff: Staff bought/found in act 2 norm, sockets --> act 5 quest 1, Lum from Hellforge nm, Io from Hellforge nm, Sol from Countess nm, Eth from Countess norm.
- PulRalSol (Enlightenment) in Breast Plate: Breast Plate bought/found in act 2 norm, sockets --> act 5 quest 1, Pul from Hellforge nm, Ral from act 5 quest 2 norm, Sol from Hellforge nm
- +3 Lightningskill-Amulet: cubed with 3 hellforge-pgs from ilvl-60-amulet - Baal norm and all monster from CS nm on can drop those amulets.
- +2 Lightningskill rare-circlet: imbueable from Charsi in nightmare on level 33

Other items:
- ShaelEth-Bone-Shield: Shael from Countess nm, Eth from Countess norm.
- +2 Conviction-Szepter: Bought somewhere or from Anya norm.
- +3 offensive-Aura-Amulet: cubed with 3 hellforge-pgs from ilvl-60-amulet - Baal norm and all monster from CS nm on can drop those amulets.
- ShaelThulAmn (Peace) in Breast Plate: Breast Plate bought/found in act 2 norm, sockets --> act 5 quest 1, Shael from Countess nm, Thul from Hellforge norm, Amn from Hellforge norm.
- +3 Javelins/Gloves: Found somewhere or Anya norm.
- TirRal (Leaf) in Short Staff: 2-socket Short Staff bought in act 1 normal, Tir from Countess norm, Ral from act 5 quest 2.
- 2 * TalEth (Stealth) Armor: Armors found/bought at act 1, 2* Tal from countess norm, 2* Eth from countess norm.

Now for some segment-planning:
1. Segment: 4 players doing act 1 quest 1, 4 players searching for stony field wp (split on both ways in cold plains) and doing Rakanishu for the first time.
2. All together in underground passage and then split up in dark wood for fast wp/tree-finding
3. All together Tristram with enough manipulated random-bosspacks before/in Tristram.
4. Not clear yet. First team-splitting (2-player-teams) should occur when all players have reached ~Level 9 (high enough static-level and good finisher) so maybe another Tristram-run here.

More will come later, but I think this is enough to discuss on for now...

Best regards

FraGFroG

OK, let me start to clear things up about the strategy. We WILL be able to reach sub-2-hours with this strategy and sub-90-minutes is also quite feasible if we optimize enough... Zurreco and zoonel you must be joking about the sub-Siykos-time, or do you really mean it serious? If so ROFL is my answer to that estimate... ;)

First of all here are the characters for this strategy:
1 Meteor/Fb-sorc: [url=http://diablo3.ingame.de/spiel/skills/calc/index.php?lang=en&char=sor&lvl=61&diff=0&set=2,0,0,8,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,11,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,20,3,1,0,0,0,20,0,15,0,0,0]Skills[/url]
1 Blizzard/Glacial Spike/Static-sorc: [url=http://diablo3.ingame.de/spiel/skills/calc/index.php?lang=en&char=sor&lvl=61&diff=0&set=2,5,0,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,20,0,0,0,20,0,20,3,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,6,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]Skills[/url]
1 Blizzard/Glacial Spike/Static-sorc: [url=http://diablo3.ingame.de/spiel/skills/calc/index.php?lang=en&char=sor&lvl=61&diff=2&set=0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,13,0,0,0,20,0,20,3,0,0,0,0,8,0,0,0,6,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]Skills[/url]
1 Nova/Static-sorc: [url=http://diablo3.ingame.de/spiel/skills/calc/index.php?lang=en&char=sor&lvl=61&diff=0&set=0,0,0,3,1,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,5,0,20,0,1,0,20,3,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,20,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]Skills[/url]
1 Frozen Orb/cold mastery/Static-sorc: [url=http://diablo3.ingame.de/spiel/skills/calc/index.php?lang=en&char=sor&lvl=61&diff=0&set=0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,1,0,0,0,20,0,20,0,4,0,20,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]Skills[/url]
1 Fire Blast/WoF/Death Sentry/Shadowmaster/BoS/CoS/Mb-Assassin: [url=http://diablo3.ingame.de/spiel/skills/calc/index.php?lang=en&char=assa&lvl=61&diff=0&set=0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,1,0,0,0,11,0,11,3,1,0,0,0,1,0,20,3,0,0,1,0,0,0,20,0,0,0]Skills[/url]
1 Holy Fire/Zeal/Holy Shield/Vigor/Meditation/Conviction-Paladin: [url=http://diablo3.ingame.de/spiel/skills/calc/index.php?lang=en&char=pal&lvl=61&diff=0&set=0,0,3,0,1,0,6,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,10,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,14,2,1,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,20,2,1,0,1,0,1,0,4,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,5,0,0,0]Skills[/url]
1 Lightning Fury/Charged Strike/Pierce/Valkyrie-Amazon: [url=http://diablo3.ingame.de/spiel/skills/calc/index.php?lang=en&char=ama&lvl=61&diff=0&set=2,0,0,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,7,0,1,0,12,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,20,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,20,0]Skills[/url]

The basic idea of this setup is to fully abuse static + finishing skills in normal and nightmare. If you combine that with 4 seperate 2-player-teams (1 static-sorc + 1 finishing character each team) always exping the best-xp-areas around you can get some INSANE fast leveling done. One of the 2-player-teams (the highest one always) will then be responsible for proceeding the act with the necessary quests. The last leveling (45-59) is then also done with insane speed in the Lost City/Ancient Tunnels in hell, which is just the best leveling areas of the whole game (MUCH better than Hell-Baalrunexp if you manipulate them). You can manage to get up to FOURTEEN bosses in just those two tiny areas alone (ancient tunnels are not much bigger than Lut Gholein). And the ancient tunnels is a level 85 area, so the xp given for those bosses is insane too (I'm talking about ~5 levels per ~2-minute-run), also they don't really have much resistances, so you can kill them quite easily.

Here are the best 2-player-teams for normal we could come up with:
assa + orb-sorc, static (good area-dmg, team for mass killing, fallen camps/flayer/etc.)
ama + nova-sorc, static (good area-dmg, team for mass killing, fallen camps/flayer/etc.)
fire-sorc + lightning-sorc, static (good boss-killer-team, team for Tristram/Tower/etc.)
pala + blizz-sorc, static (good boss-killer-team, team for Tristram/Tower/etc.)

And these are the best 2-player-teams for nightmare we could come up with:
assa + orb-sorc, static (good area-dmg, team for mass killing, fallen camps/flayer/etc.)
ama + nova-sorc, static (good area-dmg, team for mass killing, fallen camps/flayer/etc.)
fire-sorc + blizz-sorc, static (good boss-killer-team, team for nm-massboss-areas)
pala + lightning-sorc, static (good boss-killer-team, team for nm-massboss-areas)

Now some words on the items: The only feasible way to get decent equipment in a speedrun is by using runewords. For those runewords we can get 8 bigger runes in hellforge norm/nm each and some smaller runes from countess-runs in normal/nightmare.

With those hellforge/countess-runes, we plan on getting decent equipment for 3 characters and some more stuff for the others: 
- Meteor/Fb-sorc
- Blizzard-sorc
- Lightning-sorc

And 8 more items: 1 ShaelEth-Shield for the Paladin (maxblock is easily achievable), +2 Conviction Szepter for the Paladin, +3 offensive Aura Amulet for the Paladin (both items to get maximum -resi on Conviction), Peace-Armor for the Amazon, +3 Java Gloves and/or Javelins for the Amazon, TirRal-Staff for the Assassin, 2 TalEth-Armors for the teleporting sorcs (assassin and amazon at start).

So what runewords/items does the Meteor/Fb-sorc need?:
- TirRal (Leaf) in +2 or +3 fireball-staff: Staff bought/found in act 2 norm, sockets --> act 5 quest 1, Tir from Countess norm, Ral from act 5 quest 2 norm.
- PulRalSol (Enlightenment) in Breast Plate: Breast Plate bought/found in act 2 norm, sockets --> act 5 quest 1, Pul from Hellforge nm, Ral from act 5 quest 2 norm, Sol from Hellforge nm
- +3 Fireskill-Amulet: cubed with 3 hellforge-pgs from ilvl-60-amulet - Baal norm  and all monster from CS nm on can drop those amulets.
- +2 Fireskill rare-circlet: imbueable from Charsi in nightmare on level 33

What about the Blizzard-sorc?:
- +3 Blizzard-Orb: From Anya norm or bought/found somewhere.
- RalOrtTal in Large Shield: Large Shield bought/found from act 2 norm, sockets --> act 5 quest 1, act 5 quest 2 for the runes.
- PulRalSol (Enlightenment) in Breast Plate: Breast Plate bought/found in act 2 norm, sockets --> act 5 quest 1, Pul from Hellforge nm, Ral from act 5 quest 2 norm, Sol from Hellforge nm
- +3 Coldskill-Amulet: cubed with 3 hellforge-pgs from ilvl-60-amulet - Baal norm  and all monster from CS nm on can drop those amulets.
- +2 Coldskill rare-circlet: imbueable from Charsi in nightmare on level 33

What about the Lightning-sorc?:
- LumIoSolEth (Memory) in +3 Lightning-Staff: Staff bought/found in act 2 norm, sockets --> act 5 quest 1, Lum from Hellforge nm, Io from Hellforge nm, Sol from Countess nm, Eth from Countess norm.
- PulRalSol (Enlightenment) in Breast Plate: Breast Plate bought/found in act 2 norm, sockets --> act 5 quest 1, Pul from Hellforge nm, Ral from act 5 quest 2 norm, Sol from Hellforge nm
- +3 Lightningskill-Amulet: cubed with 3 hellforge-pgs from ilvl-60-amulet - Baal norm and all monster from CS nm on can drop those amulets.
- +2 Lightningskill rare-circlet: imbueable from Charsi in nightmare on level 33

Other items:
- ShaelEth-Bone-Shield: Shael from Countess nm, Eth from Countess norm.
- +2 Conviction-Szepter: Bought somewhere or from Anya norm.
- +3 offensive-Aura-Amulet: cubed with 3 hellforge-pgs from ilvl-60-amulet - Baal norm and all monster from CS nm on can drop those amulets.
- ShaelThulAmn (Peace) in Breast Plate: Breast Plate bought/found in act 2 norm, sockets --> act 5 quest 1, Shael from Countess nm, Thul from Hellforge norm, Amn from Hellforge norm.
- +3 Javelins/Gloves: Found somewhere or Anya norm.
- TirRal (Leaf) in Short Staff: 2-socket Short Staff bought in act 1 normal, Tir from Countess norm, Ral from act 5 quest 2.
- 2 * TalEth (Stealth) Armor: Armors found/bought at act 1, 2* Tal from countess norm, 2* Eth from countess norm.

Now for some segment-planning:
1. Segment: 4 players doing act 1 quest 1, 4 players searching for stony field wp (split on both ways in cold plains) and doing Rakanishu for the first time.
2. All together in underground passage and then split up in dark wood for fast wp/tree-finding
3. All together Tristram with enough manipulated random-bosspacks before/in Tristram.
4. Not clear yet. First team-splitting (2-player-teams) should occur when all players have reached ~Level 9 (high enough static-level and good finisher) so maybe another Tristram-run here.

More will come later, but I think this is enough to discuss on for now...

Best regards

FraGFroG

Zurreco

2009-11-23 06:50:42 pm

Just call me the cynicism machine

Quote from FraGFroG:

Zurreco and zoonel you must be joking about the sub-Siykos-time, or do you really mean it serious? If so ROFL is my answer to that estimate... Wink

Ancient Tunnels in hell

I don't know if you're laughing because you don't believe it to be possible or because you think it is a foregone conclusion that you will beat his time. Keep in mind that you have two competing factors here: he always knew where he was going and was able to manipulate drops with relative ease. You won't be able to scout the map and you will have a very hard time getting notably good drops at a dependable rate. So the formula is (8p time) = (Siyko time) + (scouting time) + (necessity for everyone to turn in quests before you continue) + (necessity of everyone to get enough drops to ensure a potion fund) + (time needed for 8 people to micro appropriately) - (power of 8 players strong). It's ambiguous, so I don't know why you're laughing either way.

What are the Ancient Tunnels? You mean the Ancient's Way? Because it's better to stick with A4 Hell than to move on for levels.

Otherwise, it seems like you're very sure of what you want to do. Good luck with that, I presume.

[quote="FraGFroG"]Zurreco and zoonel you must be joking about the sub-Siykos-time, or do you really mean it serious? If so ROFL is my answer to that estimate... ;)

Ancient Tunnels in hell[/quote]
I don't know if you're laughing because you don't believe it to be possible or because you think it is a foregone conclusion that you will beat his time.  Keep in mind that you have two competing factors here: he always knew where he was going and was able to manipulate drops with relative ease.  You won't be able to scout the map and you will have a very hard time getting notably good drops at a dependable rate.  So the formula is (8p time) = (Siyko time) + (scouting time) + (necessity for everyone to turn in quests before you continue) + (necessity of everyone to get enough drops to ensure a potion fund) + (time needed for 8 people to micro appropriately) - (power of 8 players strong).  It's ambiguous, so I don't know why you're laughing either way.

What are the Ancient Tunnels?  You mean the Ancient's Way?  Because it's better to stick with A4 Hell than to move on for levels.

Otherwise, it seems like you're very sure of what you want to do.  Good luck with that, I presume.

LeWoVoc

2009-11-23 07:07:16 pm

He means the Ancient Tunnels, which is a small-ish area in the Lost City. The experience there is just incredible.

sapphirerawk

Edit history:

sapphirerawk: 2009-11-23 07:48:11 pm

2009-11-23 07:12:11 pm

Edit: Are you going to do 8 hellforge segments in norm and nm?

moooh

2009-11-24 05:29:01 am

Exoray

Quote from Zurreco:

According to the last multi/100% thread:

100% means all quests on all difficulties ONLY. Not waypoints or levels or areas or dialog options or other bullshit. All quests have to be done in their respective act before you can move on to the next act (so make those imbues work). Cow King is considered a quest after Baal, so you have to do Normal Cow King before you can move on to Nightmare A1.

Just wanted to point out that the rules mentioned in this quote are rules made up by pweisger for a run to be eligible for one of his bounties. These are not official rules required for a regular SDA submission of this game. There's nothing about D2 in the low%/100% topic so you might want to check with mike which things actually apply before you do more planning.

sapphirerawk

2009-11-24 06:17:36 am

100% rules were confirmed when siyko submitted his run and they are the same as those quoted.

zoonel

2009-11-24 07:49:39 am

Go play spacechem !

Quote:

I also want to point out that Zons suck and you won't really have a competent build for it without dropping a really good weapon.

Zons powns everything that's packed and not light immune. The only condition to be viable is with mana leech and +x mana per drop ... if you cant find titan's of course.

That said i completely forgot that you cant see map layout in multiplayer ::), so maybe i was too quick when saying that siykos time should be beaten.
I woud add to zurecco's equation a - (multitasking quests / levelling)
Wait a minute, what time are you talking about? I talk about the 4:22 time, but you say sub 2h :s

I mentionned the minions for necro only to use vs ancients, other than that its just for lower resists / decrepify. CE sucks in 8 ppl game because it takes into account only the 1 player monster hp and its half physical and half fire dmg (that sucks in hell).

Quote:

The only feasible way to get decent equipment in a speedrun is by using runewords

In a 8 ppl game cant you run mephisto in nm ? All junk will be gone, and with some topaz yo could actually drop uniques/sets. But dont underestimate the power of rares.

Anyway you have already a welll thought plan. I'm wondering why you dont use a barb, because bo is such a relief when you need to teleport, especially since you must explore the map. I doubt potions will be enough for intensive teleport + killing.

[quote]I also want to point out that Zons suck and you won't really have a competent build for it without dropping a really good weapon.[/quote]
Zons powns everything that's packed and not light immune. The only condition to be viable is with mana leech and +x mana per drop ... if you cant find titan's of course.

That said i completely forgot that you cant see map layout in multiplayer  ::), so maybe i was too quick when saying that siykos time should be beaten.
I woud add to zurecco's equation a - (multitasking quests / levelling)
Wait a minute, what time are you talking about? I talk about the 4:22 time, but you say sub 2h :s

I mentionned the minions for necro only to use vs ancients, other than that its just for lower resists / decrepify. CE sucks in 8 ppl game because it takes into account only the 1 player monster hp and its half physical and half fire dmg (that sucks in hell).

[quote]The only feasible way to get decent equipment in a speedrun is by using runewords[/quote]
In a 8 ppl game cant you run mephisto in nm ? All junk will be gone, and with some topaz yo could actually drop uniques/sets. But dont underestimate the power of rares.

Anyway you have already a welll thought plan. I'm wondering why you dont use a barb, because bo is such a relief when you need to teleport, especially since you must explore the map. I doubt potions will be enough for intensive teleport + killing.

20-100

2009-11-24 11:16:03 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

@Fragfrog: Very nice post. Do you think 5 sorcies are needed or would it be possible to perhaps trade one in for a barbarian with maxed BO, giving constant huge boosts to life/mana, +1 skills and stunning all monsters with war cry? He's also pretty useful early on with tanking/melee'ing.

I think the main gear requirement that will make or break the run is for the teleporting sorceresses to reach the 63 FCR breakpoint, that will speed things up immensely and it should definitely be considered to sacrifice some damage in order to reach that speed. Stealth + 2 rings gets us to 45% which is enough for the lightning sorceresses who get 33% from the staff, but the fire & cold sorcies still need something there.

Beenman500

2009-11-24 11:21:50 am

Joke of all trades

yeah, not too mention for the FB/metoer sorc will benifit greatly from FCR as it will attack quicker aswell

mfb

2009-11-24 11:43:01 am

I teleported in hell when we planned our 2player-run, with lower fcr and less mana and life than the sorcs in the speedrun. It's possible to die, but the risk is quite small in most areas and we can redo segments if the teleport sorc fails. Dangerous areas can be combined with easy tasks for the other chars.

In speedruns, time is used for 4 things:
- leveling -> in a full game and with a good party (conviction-support and so on), the chars will get much more experience. A clear plus for the team.
- teleporting/running -> we do not know the map, but we can help a bit with our segmenting. And we can have a very short map everywhere if we want to, while siyko had to use the given map. A small minus for the team.
- quests -> a solo-runner must do them, we must do them.
- item management -> we need roughly the same amount of runes per player, but we have to manage the hellforge-quests. A small minus for the team.

The team can do multiple tasks at the same time, and that ist the biggest advantage over a solo-run: For example, one sorc can teleport, two chars can do a quest, two chars can do another quest, three chars can level in a good area.
=> The total time is no longer the sum of all 4 times, but the largest one of these. Leveling probably, as teleporting needs less than one hour.

I teleported in hell when we planned our 2player-run, with lower fcr and less mana and life than the sorcs in the speedrun. It's possible to die, but the risk is quite small in most areas and we can redo segments if the teleport sorc fails. Dangerous areas can be combined with easy tasks for the other chars.

In speedruns, time is used for 4 things:
- leveling -> in a full game and with a good party (conviction-support and so on), the chars will get much more experience. A clear plus for the team.
- teleporting/running -> we do not know the map, but we can help a bit with our segmenting. And we can have a very short map everywhere if we want to, while siyko had to use the given map. A small minus for the team.
- quests -> a solo-runner must do them, we must do them.
- item management -> we need roughly the same amount of runes per player, but we have to manage the hellforge-quests. A small minus for the team.

The team can do multiple tasks at the same time, and that ist the biggest advantage over a solo-run: For example, one sorc can teleport, two chars can do a quest, two chars can do another quest, three chars can level in a good area.
=> The total time is no longer the sum of all 4 times, but the largest one of these. Leveling probably, as teleporting needs less than one hour.

FraGFroG

Edit history:

FraGFroG: 2009-11-24 12:57:05 pm

2009-11-24 12:04:40 pm

Ok, here are some answers (also look at mfb's post - he's my teammate in our previous planned and started 2-player-run).
@Zurreco/zoonel: The speed-formula is the following:
8-player-time = (Siykos time)
- [time for shitty teleport maps and failed tries (manipulated out)]
- (you don't have to be in the area where questing takes place - just same act - and can get xp meanwhile)
- (necessity to give too much thought on drops, cause four seperate teams getting drops from bosses mainly in an 8-player-game = BIG gold/item/potion-source)
- (much less than half the time to get to level 60, compared to Siykos run, because it's 2-player in an 8-player-game and most of the players can level in the perfect areas like tower, tristram, etc, while just one team has to move on)
- (time to proceed forward in questing - done by one of four teams while rest is leveling the best areas)
- (killing time for necessary bosses, cause conviction and sorc-firepower just devastates them)
- (much better leveling tactic for hell and also for normal + nightmare compared to Siykos run - just rewatch my solorun and look at my last post again)
+ (some time due to micro errors for 8 players - can be reduced by having good players around ;))
+ (one team or player has to do hellforge-runs 8 times in nightmare and a few times in normal)

Anyway, the best argument for MUCH less time is already very well articulated at the end of mfb's post...

Quote from mfb:

The team can do multiple tasks at the same time, and that ist the biggest advantage over a solo-run: For example, one sorc can teleport, two chars can do a quest, two chars can do another quest, three chars can level in a good area.
=> The total time is no longer the sum of all 4 times, but the largest one of these. Leveling probably, as teleporting needs less than one hour.

that means in fact, that we don't really have to manipulate much on the teleporting/questing part (just manipulate out deaths), because the leveling part is still the biggest one for the team anyway!

@sapphireawk: Yeah we plan on doing eight hellforge-runs in nm in the worst case (if enough necessary runes like sols don't drop in areas or countess-runs before them) but that's not a big deal, as all four 2-player-teams should be able to do them alone while the rest is leveling in good areas/teleporting forward/doing baalruns. In normal it's not eight runs but roughly four runs (again if we don't find any of these runes before at countess or somewhere).

I asked mikwuyma about the rules and he said:
- Multiple hellforge-runs = OK
- Doing quests much later when you are already in a new act and have more dps = OK (so it is allowed to do bloodraven much later and therefore faster - don't know where you guys got your wrong informations from...)

@zoonel: Zons just need manapotions for that... we don't need to run mephisto, we should be able to find enough stuff (especially fc-rings and stuff) on the way... for the rest of the answer look above.

@20-100: Barb can't do anything other than supporting, that's not enough for powerleveling (which is needed for a good time) sorry. Also you don't really need him! Just check it out... teleport with your 63% fc-sorc (2 sorcs should be able to get that - stealth + 2 fc-rings + 20 % fc-orb is enough for that) and watch how easy it is! Most areas are just super-easy and some areas will need some manipulation... but that's what segmenting is for isn't it? Most of the time, you end up having zero-hit-teleports anyway (those are mostly the successful attempt anyway) so your life is totally unimportant (1 hitpoint would be enough).

@Beenman500: The Firesorc should be able to get 20% fc via two fc-rings at least (if not 37% with something else).

Ok, here are some answers (also look at mfb's post - he's my teammate in our previous planned and started 2-player-run).
@Zurreco/zoonel: The speed-formula is the following: 
8-player-time = (Siykos time) 
- [time for shitty teleport maps and failed tries (manipulated out)] 
- (you don't have to be in the area where questing takes place - just same act - and can get xp meanwhile) 
- (necessity to give too much thought on drops, cause four seperate teams getting drops from bosses mainly in an 8-player-game = BIG gold/item/potion-source) 
- (much less than half the time to get to level 60, compared to Siykos run, because it's 2-player in an 8-player-game and most of the players can level in the perfect areas like tower, tristram, etc, while just one team has to move on) 
- (time to proceed forward in questing - done by one of four teams while rest is leveling the best areas) 
- (killing time for necessary bosses, cause conviction and sorc-firepower just devastates them) 
- (much better leveling tactic for hell and also for normal + nightmare compared to Siykos run - just rewatch my solorun and look at my last post again) 
+ (some time due to micro errors for 8 players - can be reduced by having good players around ;))
+ (one team or player has to do hellforge-runs 8 times in nightmare and a few times in normal)

Anyway, the best argument for MUCH less time is already very well articulated at the end of mfb's post...[quote="mfb"]
The team can do multiple tasks at the same time, and that ist the biggest advantage over a solo-run: For example, one sorc can teleport, two chars can do a quest, two chars can do another quest, three chars can level in a good area.
=> The total time is no longer the sum of all 4 times, but the largest one of these. Leveling probably, as teleporting needs less than one hour.
[/quote] that means in fact, that we don't really have to manipulate much on the teleporting/questing part (just manipulate out deaths), because the leveling part is still the biggest one for the team anyway!

@sapphireawk: Yeah we plan on doing eight hellforge-runs in nm in the worst case (if enough necessary runes like sols don't drop in areas or countess-runs before them) but that's not a big deal, as all four 2-player-teams should be able to do them alone while the rest is leveling in good areas/teleporting forward/doing baalruns. In normal it's not eight runs but roughly four runs (again if we don't find any of these runes before at countess or somewhere).

I asked mikwuyma about the rules and he said: 
- Multiple hellforge-runs = OK
- Doing quests much later when you are already in a new act and have more dps = OK (so it is allowed to do bloodraven much later and therefore faster - don't know where you guys got your wrong informations from...)

@zoonel: Zons just need manapotions for that... we don't need to run mephisto, we should be able to find enough stuff (especially fc-rings and stuff) on the way... for the rest of the answer look above.

@20-100: Barb can't do anything other than supporting, that's not enough for powerleveling (which is needed for a good time) sorry. Also you don't really need him! Just check it out... teleport with your 63% fc-sorc (2 sorcs should be able to get that - stealth + 2 fc-rings + 20 % fc-orb is enough for that) and watch how easy it is! Most areas are just super-easy and some areas will need some manipulation... but that's what segmenting is for isn't it? Most of the time, you end up having zero-hit-teleports anyway (those are mostly the successful attempt anyway) so your life is totally unimportant (1 hitpoint would be enough).

@Beenman500: The Firesorc should be able to get 20% fc via two fc-rings at least (if not 37% with something else).

Beenman500

2009-11-24 12:49:00 pm

Joke of all trades

do you think a static sorc could be effective in a 1 player any% run of diablo 2 fragfrog? i know there was discusion about it but i guess your opinion is kindof worth more than most...

FraGFroG

2009-11-24 01:18:40 pm

I don't think high-static is worth getting in an any%-run, because
a) Monsters don't have much hp in a 1-player-game to really be worth getting staticed down and
b) Leveling takes place in act 1-3 only, where monsters have low-enough hp to be killed right away by other skills like fireball/lightning/etc.

Requiem

2009-11-24 01:56:11 pm

... for a dream, of course.

I don't know if it makes sense to post a bounty for such run because ... i can't find a reliable way to verify it. I mean: should every player show his equipment and gold at the end of every segment?, two players (on different teams while splitting) recording at the same time?, etc.

Any ideas?.

Anyway, good luck with the run :).

FraGFroG

2009-11-24 02:21:57 pm

There need to be at LEAST one player per 2-player-team able to record, if not all 8 players recording anyway. So I don't see any problems verifing this run, because you can't really hide things then.

Zealie

Edit history:

Zealie: 2009-11-24 03:06:41 pm

2009-11-24 03:00:52 pm

A pretty big task so it seems Smiley

I would also be very much interested in this run.

I have played d2 a LOT, although I kinda stopped playing it after patch 1.10., played the most with pala and druid, but also some barb stuff and of course a MF sorc (yes i was a ladder whore). Never tried speedrunning d2 though.
Big drawback is though that I live in europe (GMT+1) so time difference and ping/lag would probably already rule me out :(.

Anyway, just thought I'd mention it.

Also, I saw a link to the 4p run ( and when selecting skills you can just click on the skill you just selected and it'll pop into your 'right mouse' skill button. (so when picking the might aura if you just click again you'll automaticly get might).
Saves some trouble and some time, saw no one else mention this so I thought I'd do it and figured you'd also read it here so I won't post it again in the 4p run.

menschenfeind

2009-11-24 03:34:23 pm

@ zaibir: fragfrog & mfb are from europe as well (ger, as far as i know) so no prob with ping/time etc for you Tongue

Beenman500

2009-11-24 03:39:11 pm

Joke of all trades

if people from the same sort of region are well, together in leveling groups, is that effective in reducinf lag, or is it an overall game thing?

mfb

2009-11-24 03:56:32 pm

The game is hosted by one player, so all data has to go to this player and back to the other players, regardless where in the game they are.

>> (ger, as far as i know)
That's right.
GMT+1h

20-100

2009-11-24 05:05:18 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I'm dutch so GMT+1 for me as well Wink

@fragfrog you've clearly thought this through more than me, but I think you might be underestimating slightly how difficult it is to get a good segment with 8 people. Having hitless teleport sessions aren't too realistic if you don't know where you're going and if you could get your hp up through BO it'd help you stay out of hit recovery (which only triggers if >1/12th of hp is taken in 1 hit).

Your argument that the barbarian would be almost useless after act 1 normal might outweigh this point though.

ShinerCCC

2009-11-24 06:36:06 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

dang, I wanted to help with the run but I'm in western Canada so I will cause mad lag :X

I also don't have a computer to play on at the moment so let's talk about planning for now.

I see in the previous topic I was blathering about Conviction getting up to level 25 (-resists is capped at that level) and Lower Resist curse really levels off at level 7 or 8. For getting Conviction up to 25, if you can't hope for a +3 auras amulet, then you can use the runewords Honor or Splendor. Anyway, Honor is easy to make, you can have it by Act 5 normal, but you'll probably want to wait until NM so you can find an awesome War/Divine Scepter, hopefully with +Conviction on it. The Paladin 1.11 patch armour sucks, it requires Gul, but it's hilarious if you're a zealot because you spray Holy Bolts everywhere. It was even more hilarious on a character I made once where every item I used had a "chance to cast" mod on it. Laying of Hands gave me layered, loud Holy Bolts sometimes, XD.

Lore is also pretty easy to make. Make sure you guys really milk those hellforges; you can probably take all the topazes and merge them for a 4ptopaz armour or something.

dang, I wanted to help with the run but I'm in western Canada so I will cause mad lag :X

I also don't have a computer to play on at the moment so let's talk about planning for now.

I see in the previous topic I was blathering about Conviction getting up to level 25 (-resists is capped at that level) and Lower Resist curse really levels off at level 7 or 8. For getting Conviction up to 25, if you can't hope for a +3 auras amulet, then you can use the runewords Honor or Splendor. Anyway, Honor is easy to make, you can have it by Act 5 normal, but you'll probably want to wait until NM so you can find an awesome War/Divine Scepter, hopefully with +Conviction on it. The Paladin 1.11 patch armour sucks, it requires Gul, but it's hilarious if you're a zealot because you spray Holy Bolts everywhere. It was even more hilarious on a character I made once where every item I used had a "chance to cast" mod on it. Laying of Hands gave me layered, loud Holy Bolts sometimes, XD.

Lore is also pretty easy to make. Make sure you guys really milk those hellforges; you can probably take all the topazes and merge them for a 4ptopaz armour or something.

Wuv

Edit history:

Wuv: 2009-11-24 11:35:00 pm

2009-11-24 11:25:52 pm

I agree with saving some quests for later but I think normal should be 100% done before moving onto nightmare. Is there an ETA on when the test run will begin? I think a no-stress playthrough would be the best way to get the ball rolling. We'll be synergized even for the blood moor segment if we get to know each other. As for me I'm going to start practicing up. I don't know what class I'll play or even if I'll be one of the 8 runners but I had best be in top shape if that time comes.

Zealie

2009-11-25 01:26:55 am

IIRC 100% is just all quests in all difficulties and cow king was seen as a quest.

In what order you do has probably no requirement at all. (the only reason it had a requirement for the other 100% run was because the man giving the bounty wanted it).
((Although completing normal before going to nightmare does sound logical... meh)

In case I'm wrong please do correct me.