Diablo 2 LoD: 100% 8-player-teamrun planning thread

Edit history:

FraGFroG: 2009-11-25 02:32:39 am

2009-11-25 02:26:41 am

@ZaibirQuild: Alright i'll add you to the list on the first post. As for questing: We should finish all quests 100% before moving to the next difficulty, but other than that restriction, we should always do them, when they can be done the fastest way...

We should definitely do a testrun before starting the real speedrun (as we did in our 2-player-run too), just to get to know to each other and get used to the character, that each player wants to play. But before that, we have to fully discuss every part of the run (so it can be tested in the testrun too). Also we have to decide on dates when we can play together... so please, everybody who is interested, post some possible dates, that you guys have time on... (don't forget to mention your timezone)

shoop

2009-11-25 04:24:16 am

First of all, congratulations with what seems to be an excellent plan, and I think this run could be very exciting. At some point, I think it will need to be discussed how this run is going to be presented. I actually think split screens would be cool and helpful to keep an overview of what's going on Cheesy

Quote from FraGFroG:

so please, everybody who is interested, post some possible dates, that you guys have time on... (don't forget to mention your timezone)

I think this is not specific enough. I'm a bit fearful the hardest thing for this run will be to get it planned properly... Of course, in the end FragFrog has to decide how to organize things. I don't want to impose, but if it were me organizing the run, I'd do it something like this:

Everyone sends to FragFrog: (a) timezone, (b) preferred character(s), (c) for all days of the week, at what hours he'd normally be able to play and (d) a list of dates where he certainly would not be able to play, from now to say, April next year.
FragFrog makes a list of all times/dates for which a sufficient number of players is available. Each entry contains time and date, and a list of available players.
Ideally I think people should play about twice a week, but there may be more available slots on the list. Therefore, at least two weeks in advance, FragFrog fixes the times when the game will be played. He also lists which players are kept in reserve, which 8 players will play, and what classes each will play. The last bit is important, because players may have to swap around a little bit between characters, and this will allow them to practice the next segment with the correct character.
Obviously, as soon as players learn that they will not be able to join at a specific time/date, they have to inform FragFrog immediately.

FragFrog, what do you think?

First of all, congratulations with what seems to be an excellent plan, and I think this run could be very exciting. At some point, I think it will need to be discussed how this run is going to be presented. I actually think split screens would be cool and helpful to keep an overview of what's going on :D

[quote="FraGFroG"]
so please, everybody who is interested, post some possible dates, that you guys have time on... (don't forget to mention your timezone)
[/quote]

I think this is not specific enough. I'm a bit fearful the hardest thing for this run will be to get it planned properly... Of course, in the end FragFrog has to decide how to organize things. I don't want to impose, but if it were me organizing the run, I'd do it something like this:

[list]
[li]Everyone sends to FragFrog: (a) timezone, (b) preferred character(s), (c) for all days of the week, at what hours he'd normally be able to play and (d) a list of dates where he certainly would not be able to play, from now to say, April next year.[/li]
[li]FragFrog makes a list of all times/dates for which a sufficient number of players is available. Each entry contains time and date, and a list of available players.[/li]
[li]Ideally I think people should play about twice a week, but there may be more available slots on the list. Therefore, at least two weeks in advance, FragFrog fixes the times when the game will be played. He also lists which players are kept in reserve, which 8 players will play, [b]and what classes each will play[/b]. The last bit is important, because players may have to swap around a little bit between characters, and this will allow them to practice the next segment with the correct character.[/li]
[li]Obviously, as soon as players learn that they will not be able to join at a specific time/date, they have to inform FragFrog immediately.[/li]
[/list]

FragFrog, what do you think?

PreddY

2009-11-25 09:54:42 am

Hope rides alone.

GMT +1 here (ger)

I can play any character properly (i was a d2 crack once)

we gotta talk about play days though, as I am working from 8 to 4 each day, so we need to make a list of when and how long

Lag.Com

2009-11-25 10:50:48 am

sda loyalist

GMT (England)

Paladin / Druid is fine for me, though it looks like Druid isn't needed...
Can play pretty much anytime Sat/Sun/Mon/Tue and in evening (6-11ish) on Wed/Thu/Fri.

FraGFroG

Edit history:

FraGFroG: 2009-11-25 03:50:21 pm

2009-11-25 03:45:04 pm

@shoop: Yeah that sounds like a good idea. Maybe you guys could send me a pm posting your times (don't forget the timezone) so I can make some kind of plan for the following 2 weeks always.

About the player-switching: I don't know if that's allowed. It would make things much easier, because then we would be able to also replace players, who (for whatever reason) wants to quit the team at some time.

@Preddy: Alright, I got you in the list.

@lag: ok, times noted.

Anyways, we need to scout out good leveling areas. How does this work? Well mfb and me already used this tactic in the 2-player-run. We did some scouting-runs (10 is a good number) on a specific area (like stony fields) and always counted the number of bosses in that randomly-created-area (the boss-leveling-tactic is VERY important for a good time and will also be explained in my commentary to the assassin-run, which should come up on the side very soon).
That way, we could get a pretty good picture about the number of bosses that were feasible while manipulating for best xp-segments. So I would ask you, to help the team determining the best xp-areas for all acts on normal and nightmare (in hell we already have found the best xp-area to get the last levels very fast). If we all share this scouting-effort, we could finish it quite quickly and get a list about the most valuable areas to level in.
So if you want to help the team determining these areas, here is what you have to do:
- Pick one of your b-net-characters (if you have one), sorc or very fast frenzy-barb, etc. should be taken to speed things up.
- Do 10 complete runs in any area you like (complete means that you see all monsters of that area once) and announce it here earlier (to avoid double-scoutings).
- Count the number of bosses in that area and write those numbers down. Champion-packs do count as a half-boss (so for example, if you have 2 bosses and 1 champ-pack on one run, you would have the number 2,5)
- Just add all 10 numbers that you collected together and divide them by 10, so you get the average number of bosses in that area.
- When all that is done, post the average number, the maximum and the minimum number of that area in this thread here.
- The best leveling areas then are those with the highest average numbers, smallest variances and best number of bosses/bigness of area ratio.
- Btw. don't forget about the extra-areas, like the cave/hole/pit, etc. because those are often the best xp-areas around...

One more note: You don't have to do this for the areas before black marsh, because we already have a good picture of those areas from our 2-player-run and we're running these areas mostly together anyway, proceeding the fastest way forward.

@shoop: Yeah that sounds like a good idea. Maybe you guys could send me a pm posting your times (don't forget the timezone) so I can make some kind of plan for the following 2 weeks always.

About the player-switching: I don't know if that's allowed. It would make things much easier, because then we would be able to also replace players, who (for whatever reason) wants to quit the team at some time.

@Preddy: Alright, I got you in the list.

@lag: ok, times noted.

Anyways, we need to scout out good leveling areas. How does this work? Well mfb and me already used this tactic in the 2-player-run. We did some scouting-runs (10 is a good number) on a specific area (like stony fields) and always counted the number of bosses in that randomly-created-area (the boss-leveling-tactic is VERY important for a good time and will also be explained in my commentary to the assassin-run, which should come up on the side very soon).
That way, we could get a pretty good picture about the number of bosses that were feasible while manipulating for best xp-segments. So I would ask you, to help the team determining the best xp-areas for all acts on normal and nightmare (in hell we already have found the best xp-area to get the last levels very fast). If we all share this scouting-effort, we could finish it quite quickly and get a list about the most valuable areas to level in. 
So if you want to help the team determining these areas, here is what you have to do: 
- Pick one of your b-net-characters (if you have one), sorc or very fast frenzy-barb, etc. should be taken to speed things up.
- Do 10 complete runs in any area you like (complete means that you see all monsters of that area once) and announce it here earlier (to avoid double-scoutings).
- Count the number of bosses in that area and write those numbers down. Champion-packs do count as a half-boss (so for example, if you have 2 bosses and 1 champ-pack on one run, you would have the number 2,5)
- Just add all 10 numbers that you collected together and divide them by 10, so you get the average number of bosses in that area. 
- When all that is done, post the average number, the maximum and the minimum number of that area in this thread here.
- The best leveling areas then are those with the highest average numbers, smallest variances and best number of bosses/bigness of area ratio.
- Btw. don't forget about the extra-areas, like the cave/hole/pit, etc. because those are often the best xp-areas around...

One more note: You don't have to do this for the areas before black marsh, because we already have a good picture of those areas from our 2-player-run and we're running these areas mostly together anyway, proceeding the fastest way forward.

gia

2009-11-25 03:54:27 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

But that misses distance to travel or area level, even if there are many easy monsters you get less exp than from monsters your level. I don't remember the formula though so maybe its insignificant.

FraGFroG

Edit history:

FraGFroG: 2009-11-25 04:51:43 pm

2009-11-25 04:07:14 pm

Quote from gia:

But that misses distance to travel or area level, even if there are many easy monsters you get less exp than from monsters your level. I don't remember the formula though so maybe its insignificant.

The last factor in here, does account for distance of traveling.

Quote from FraGFroG:

- The best leveling areas then are those with the highest average numbers, smallest variances and best number of bosses/bigness of area ratio.

The arealevel is just important for Leveling before 25 and you get 100% XP from Monsters 5 Levels below till 5 Levels above your level. After 25 there is another formula used clvl/mlvl * XP only and the whole arealevel-thing becomes almost irrelevant because of that.
This factor (before 25) will of course always be considered (so that you always level in a 100% area), i thought that was clear in my post (we need several good xp-areas in all acts for that purpose and can't just run tristram or tower till 25, of course not). But the idea is to always be in the best xp-areas possible, that are already reacheable by the whole team and that also gives you 100% xp by accounting for the +/- 5 Level rule.)

Edit: I'll do some Tamo till cathedral-runs (incl. pit ofc) in norm soon.

[quote="gia"]
But that misses distance to travel or area level, even if there are many easy monsters you get less exp than from monsters your level. I don't remember the formula though so maybe its insignificant.
[/quote]
The last factor in here, does account for distance of traveling.
[quote="FraGFroG"]
- The best leveling areas then are those with the highest average numbers, smallest variances and best number of bosses/bigness of area ratio.
[/quote]

The arealevel is just important for Leveling before 25 and you get 100% XP from Monsters 5 Levels below till 5 Levels above your level. After 25 there is another formula used clvl/mlvl * XP only and the whole arealevel-thing becomes almost irrelevant because of that. 
This factor (before 25) will of course always be considered (so that you always level in a 100% area), i thought that was clear in my post (we need several good xp-areas in all acts for that purpose and can't just run tristram or tower till 25, of course not). But the idea is to always be in the best xp-areas possible, that are already reacheable by the whole team and that also gives you 100% xp by accounting for the +/- 5 Level rule.)

Edit: I'll do some Tamo till cathedral-runs (incl. pit ofc) in norm soon.

ofcourse

2009-11-26 01:09:08 am

I love Rogue Squadron and stories.

GMT -5 eastern canada
till jan 4, may have to switch some courses around when i finally pick a major, but so far roughly the same, monday not till 2 after the 4th
free sat/sun/mond whole day
friday from about 4:30ish, aside from an exam on the dec 18th 2-5 wouldn't be home till maybe 7
thurs 6ish,

times in eastern ob viously i suppose
after dec 15 free tuesdays till the 4th when its after 1
after jan 4
monday not till 2

fan of sins and zons but dunno how I would do in these circumstances up for any really

and as for how long at those times, a good while

FraGFroG

Edit history:

FraGFroG: 2009-11-27 09:06:48 am

2009-11-26 02:42:36 pm

OK, here are my results from the scoutruns. For avg. number of bosses/bigness of area ratio I always took the approximate size of the minimap on the screen. If you focus the borders of it on the top right of your screen, you can kinda estimate the size of it. All scoutruns of these areas were in normal as announced earlier. Nightmare might look completely different and need seperate scoutruns.

Tamoe Highland:
avg. bosses: 1,45
min: 0; max: 3
minimap-size on the screen: ~1 --> boss-density: 1,45/1 = 1,45

Pit 1:
avg. bosses: 1,35
min: 0,5; max: 2
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,5 --> boss-density: 1,35/0,5 = 2,7

Pit 2:
avg. bosses: 1,75
min: 0,5; max: 3
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,1 --> boss-density: 1,75/0,1 = 17,5

Outer Cloister:
avg. bosses: 0,5
min: 0; max: 1
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,4 --> boss-density: 0,5/0,4 = 1,25

Barracks:
avg. bosses (excluding The Smith, cause he has no minions): 3,4
min: 3; max: 4
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,4 --> boss-density: 3,4/0,4 = 8,5

Jail 1:
avg. bosses: 1,4
min: 0,5; max: 2,5
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,5 --> boss-density: 1,4/0,5 = 2,8

Jail 2:
avg. bosses (including Pitspawn Fouldog): 2,8
min: 2; max: 4
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,5 --> boss-density: 2,8/0,5 = 5,6

Jail 3:
avg. bosses: 1,5
min: 0; max: 2
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,5 --> boss-density: 1,5/0,5 = 3,0

Inner Cloister:
avg. bosses: 0
min: 0; max: 0
minimap-size on the screen: -

Cathedral:
avg. bosses (excluding Bone Ash, cause he has no minions): 0,75
min: 0; max: 1
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,2 --> boss-density: 0,75/0,2 = 3,75

Only 3 areas of these are really of interest, the rest can be dismissed right away.
1. Barracks! Easily reachable and very high and stable boss-numbers here, so this one is clearly the winner. Kinda surprising for me, cause i didn't knew the barracks are THAT good for leveling (although i knew they aren't bad either).
2. Pit 2. Hard to reach, but once you're there, you can kill up to 3 bosses in a VERY small area down there. Only sad thing is, that the variance of that area is quite big, so maybe not appropriate for runs in our 8-player-run (or only if that area is the only one we have to actively manipulate on)
3. Jail 2. Harder to reach than the first area, a little bit less bosses on a slightly bigger map compared to the Barracks. Also bigger variance here and Pitspawn Fouldog is kinda hard to kill (dangerous boss), so this one only gets the third place in the ranking.

Would be really nice, if you guys could help me out in getting these runs done, cause one player alone is kinda overworked with this big task. Also: Players who help out the most here will be favored getting in the team, because that shows, that you are willing to have some dedication and commitment for getting a really good teamrun done.

OK, here are my results from the scoutruns. For avg. number of bosses/bigness of area ratio I always took the approximate size of the minimap on the screen. If you focus the borders of it on the top right of your screen, you can kinda estimate the size of it. All scoutruns of these areas were in normal as announced earlier. Nightmare might look completely different and need seperate scoutruns.

Tamoe Highland: 
avg. bosses: 1,45
min: 0; max: 3
minimap-size on the screen: ~1 --> boss-density: 1,45/1 = 1,45

Pit 1: 
avg. bosses: 1,35
min: 0,5; max: 2
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,5 --> boss-density: 1,35/0,5 = 2,7

Pit 2:
avg. bosses: 1,75
min: 0,5; [b][color=red][font=Verdana]max: 3[/font][/color][/b]
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,1 --> boss-density: 1,75/0,1 = [color=red][font=Verdana][b]17,5[/b][/font][/color]

Outer Cloister: 
avg. bosses: 0,5
min: 0; max: 1
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,4 --> boss-density: 0,5/0,4 = 1,25

Barracks:
avg. bosses (excluding The Smith, cause he has no minions): [color=red][font=Verdana][b]3,4[/b][/font][/color]
[b][color=red][font=Verdana]min: 3; max: 4[/font][/color][/b]
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,4 --> boss-density: 3,4/0,4 = [color=red][font=Verdana][b]8,5[/b][/font][/color]

Jail 1: 
avg. bosses: 1,4
min: 0,5; max: 2,5
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,5 --> boss-density: 1,4/0,5 = 2,8

Jail 2:
avg. bosses (including Pitspawn Fouldog): [b][color=red][font=Verdana]2,8[/font][/color][/b]
[b][color=red][font=Verdana]min: 2; max: 4[/font][/color][/b]
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,5 --> boss-density: 2,8/0,5 = [b][color=red][font=Verdana]5,6[/font][/color][/b]

Jail 3:
avg. bosses: 1,5
min: 0; max: 2
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,5 --> boss-density: 1,5/0,5 = 3,0

Inner Cloister: 
avg. bosses: 0
min: 0; max: 0
minimap-size on the screen: -

Cathedral:
avg. bosses (excluding Bone Ash, cause he has no minions): 0,75
min: 0; max: 1
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,2 --> boss-density: 0,75/0,2 = 3,75

Only 3 areas of these are really of interest, the rest can be dismissed right away.
1. Barracks! Easily reachable and very high and stable boss-numbers here, so this one is clearly the winner. Kinda surprising for me, cause i didn't knew the barracks are THAT good for leveling (although i knew they aren't bad either).
2. Pit 2. Hard to reach, but once you're there, you can kill up to 3 bosses in a VERY small area down there. Only sad thing is, that the variance of that area is quite big, so maybe not appropriate for runs in our 8-player-run (or only if that area is the only one we have to actively manipulate on)
3. Jail 2. Harder to reach than the first area, a little bit less bosses on a slightly bigger map compared to the Barracks. Also bigger variance here and Pitspawn Fouldog is kinda hard to kill (dangerous boss), so this one only gets the third place in the ranking.

Would be really nice, if you guys could help me out in getting these runs done, cause one player alone is kinda overworked with this big task. Also: Players who help out the most here will be favored getting in the team, because that shows, that you are willing to have some dedication and commitment for getting a really good teamrun done.

Beenman500

2009-11-26 02:47:31 pm

Joke of all trades

if you feed me all the data you have (amount of boss packs per run per area) rather than just the average i can work out your standard deviations for you, to see if some of your claims are as good as they sound (or not). preffereably in a spreadsheet as i can annalyse that, and if enough data is gathered maybe i can find a general distrabution patten for the whole of D2, though i doubt that...

i beleive my email address is in my profile

FraGFroG

Edit history:

FraGFroG: 2009-11-26 03:13:56 pm

2009-11-26 02:59:23 pm

Hmmm, I don't have the data digitalized (wrote them down on a paper while running). So that would require more extra-work for me, which I don't think is worth it. For our purpose those numbers should be enough imho. The scouter should just mention exceptional data like for example:
If I would've had a 0,5-boss-run in the barracks and the rest is up there on 3-4 I should mention this exception in the data. But everything else would go too far for our purposes I think...

But still: Thanks for your kind offer in helping me!

bimanc

2009-11-26 08:45:01 pm

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

Frag, i'm pretty sure that there can be 2 random bosses in chatedral. Also, did you count that in 8-player mode there are more normal and boss enemies? And finally, you really need to power level that much in an 8-player run? Just get a few bosses on each bigger area, plus some worthy normal packs, and the main characters can level up quickly. If you have lower level characters, you can level up them in a2-a3.

Beenman500

2009-11-27 01:12:29 am

Joke of all trades

Bimanc, dont you see, its that ability to analyse and choose effective area's for super leveling that made frags run that bit faster than yours (no offence) the power leveling stratergy is gonna make all the difference, a large area with two boss pack compared to small with 4 is literelly 4 or 5 times worse for leveling, so um, your wrong. though that thing about more bosses in playersx/8 might be true ;D. if you leveld 5 times fater in your run, then it would basically be frags.

FraGFroG

Edit history:

FraGFroG: 2009-11-27 06:09:26 am

2009-11-27 02:45:06 am

Please, all participants read this post!

Quote from bimanc:

Frag, i'm pretty sure that there can be 2 random bosses in chatedral.

Don't just totally ignore my data, staying on your biases about best leveling areas (which is one of the reasons why I do this whole scouting-project, cause the standard casual-player-explanation and leveling-tactic tristramruns --> tombruns --> baalruns is just UTTERLY WRONG as a really good tactic for leveling!)
The point is: Even if there are 2 bosses possible in the cathedral (let's say after 20 tries), they didn't came up ONCE in 10 attempts, so your point is totally irrelevant, as we can't manipulate for these 2 bosses if we want four seperate groups leveling in four different areas, which all need some minor or major manipulation on them!
You absolutely NEED to find many good (the best in fact) mass-boss-areas in order to have ANY good time on any team-speedrun. Just look my speedrun again and compare it with your run and you'll see that by FAR the biggest time-saver of my run (saves more than 10 minutes) is just the much more dedicated leveling I did (I almost only killed bosses on the way, leaving out almost everything else, except very big crowds)! If we don't do this, we might in fact even be faster doing just a 2-player-run optimized for bosses!

So let me do a small calculation for all of you, so you maybe understand why killing bosses is so extremely important (and therefore we absolutely need to do these scouting runs before starting). The 2-player-experience you get from one bossgroup in an 8-player-game (and with static as main-skill in norm/nightmare the amount of HP of them is really almost irrelevant for us, you just need a few more statics to kill them with ease...).
XP for one bossgroup = 1 (stands for any 100 % XP of 1 monster in a sologame) * 4,5 (8-player-bonus) * 1,35 (2-player-party-bonus) * 5 (boss/minion-xp-bonus) * 6 (avg. number of monsters per bossgroup) = 182,25 / 2 (divided by 2 because of 2 players) = 91,125! So if you kill one bossgroup, it's equivalent to having killed more than 91 monsters of that type in a sologame in just that time! If you take then a countess-run for example, where you relatively easily can get six bosses in just one run, the xp you get there is equivalent to having killed 91,125 * 6 = 546,75 monsters in just approximately 3 minutes (with static + good finisher in 8-player). That is equivalent to a rate of more than 3 monsterkills/second for 3 minutes long, which is impossible to reach with any other strategy then that, because just the time for searching 547 monster alone would probably take longer than 3 minutes (just try it out if you don't believe me, more than half a thousand monsters in 3 minutes is a gigantic mass to find, even in multiple cowlevel-runs!), let alone also the time for killing all of them while you try to find such a big mass!

So you see how imbalanced this boss-xp thing in D2 is and we will not start this run until all scouting is done! So if nobody of you guys wants to help us out here, be prepared for a VERY long time till this run can start off, if it starts at all, as I don't know if mfb and I would have the dedication to do all these runs alone just to play with such an undedicated/uncooperative team afterwards (if nobody helps us out).

Quote from bimanc:

Also, did you count that in 8-player mode there are more normal and boss enemies?

Don't know where you got that information from, because I'm 99% sure this is wrong. Got any serious sources for that claim?

Quote from bimanc:

And finally, you really need to power level that much in an 8-player run? Just get a few bosses on each bigger area, plus some worthy normal packs, and the main characters can level up quickly. If you have lower level characters, you can level up them in a2-a3.

Sorry for beeing rude now, but are you really serious with this statement? So we should play shitty in early game, just because we are too lazy to find out the best xp-areas to get the early levels really quickly? What a crappy argument is this? I thought this is a speedrunning-site, being all about FAST playthroughs and not a site where you just show some boring videos of yourself playing all the pc-games out there through at an almost random speed, without giving any thoughts about speed. Well I don't know about you, but that is definitely NOT the site that I experienced here, watching some REALLY nice speedruns on it (like the Half Life 1/2, Baldurs Gate 1/2 and Portal runs, etc.)
Also, optimizing the pre-level-25-segments for experience is even MORE important, because the levels 22-25 are always a really BIG bottle-neck to any 100% run, in fact they are the slowest levels of all in any 100%-run, because the monsters you have to kill to still get 100% xp don't give you really much XP. Even with all the boss-killing before, the xp-mountain you need to climb up to 25 is still HUGE! So you would end up having to do endless xp-segments in act 3/4 if you don't optimize the parts before it almost 100% for XP only (running time till level 25 becomes almost irrelevant because of that), which would be REALLY boring to watch (as Siyko also mentioned in his 100% run audio when leveling ^^) and on top of that cost so damn much extra-time, that really messes up your end-time!

In hope for more team-support soon...

Best regards

FraGFroG

Edit: I gonna take the catacombs norm now, as my next scout-area.

[color=red][font=Verdana][b]Please, all participants read this post![/b][/font][/color]

[quote="bimanc"]
Frag, i'm pretty sure that there can be 2 random bosses in chatedral.[/quote]

Don't just totally ignore my data, staying on your biases about best leveling areas (which is one of the reasons why I do this whole scouting-project, cause the standard casual-player-explanation and leveling-tactic tristramruns --> tombruns --> baalruns is just UTTERLY WRONG as a really good tactic for leveling!) 
The point is: Even if there are 2 bosses possible in the cathedral (let's say after 20 tries), they didn't came up ONCE in 10 attempts, so your point is totally irrelevant, as we can't manipulate for these 2 bosses if we want four seperate groups leveling in four different areas, which all need some minor or major manipulation on them!
You absolutely NEED to find many good (the best in fact) mass-boss-areas in order to have ANY good time on any team-speedrun. Just look my speedrun again and compare it with your run and you'll see that by FAR the biggest time-saver of my run (saves more than 10 minutes) is just the much more dedicated leveling I did (I almost only killed bosses on the way, leaving out almost everything else, except very big crowds)! If we don't do this, we might in fact even be faster doing just a 2-player-run optimized for bosses!

So let me do a small calculation for all of you, so you maybe understand why killing bosses is so extremely important (and therefore we absolutely need to do these scouting runs before starting). The 2-player-experience you get from one bossgroup in an 8-player-game (and with static as main-skill in norm/nightmare the amount of HP of them is really almost irrelevant for us, you just need a few more statics to kill them with ease...). 
XP for one bossgroup = 1 (stands for any 100 % XP of 1 monster in a sologame) * 4,5 (8-player-bonus) * 1,35 (2-player-party-bonus) * 5 (boss/minion-xp-bonus) * 6 (avg. number of monsters per bossgroup) = 182,25 / 2 (divided by 2 because of 2 players) = 91,125! So if you kill one bossgroup, it's equivalent to having killed more than 91 monsters of that type in a sologame in just that time! If you take then a countess-run for example, where you relatively easily can get six bosses in just one run, the xp you get there is equivalent to having killed 91,125 * 6 = 546,75 monsters in just approximately 3 minutes (with static + good finisher in 8-player). That is equivalent to a rate of more than 3 monsterkills/second for 3 minutes long, which is impossible to reach with any other strategy then that, because just the time for searching 547 monster alone would probably take longer than 3 minutes (just try it out if you don't believe me, more than half a thousand monsters in 3 minutes is a gigantic mass to find, even in multiple cowlevel-runs!), let alone also the time for killing all of them while you try to find such a big mass!

So you see how imbalanced this boss-xp thing in D2 is and we will not start this run until all scouting is done! So if nobody of you guys wants to help us out here, be prepared for a VERY long time till this run can start off, if it starts at all, as I don't know if mfb and I would have the dedication to do all these runs alone just to play with such an undedicated/uncooperative team afterwards (if nobody helps us out).

[quote="bimanc"]
Also, did you count that in 8-player mode there are more normal and boss enemies?[/quote]
Don't know where you got that information from, because I'm 99% sure this is wrong. Got any serious sources for that claim?

[quote="bimanc"]And finally, you really need to power level that much in an 8-player run? Just get a few bosses on each bigger area, plus some worthy normal packs, and the main characters can level up quickly. If you have lower level characters, you can level up them in a2-a3.[/quote]
Sorry for beeing rude now, but are you really serious with this statement? So we should play shitty in early game, just because we are too lazy to find out the best xp-areas to get the early levels really quickly? What a crappy argument is this? I thought this is a speedrunning-site, being all about FAST playthroughs and not a site where you just show some boring videos of yourself playing all the pc-games out there through at an almost random speed, without giving any thoughts about speed. Well I don't know about you, but that is definitely NOT the site that I experienced here, watching some REALLY nice speedruns on it (like the Half Life 1/2, Baldurs Gate 1/2 and Portal runs, etc.) 
Also, optimizing the pre-level-25-segments for experience is even MORE important, because the levels 22-25 are always a really BIG bottle-neck to any 100% run, in fact they are the slowest levels of all in any 100%-run, because the monsters you have to kill to still get 100% xp don't give you really much XP. Even with all the boss-killing before, the xp-mountain you need to climb up to 25 is still HUGE! So you would end up having to do endless xp-segments in act 3/4 if you don't optimize the parts before it almost 100% for XP only (running time till level 25 becomes almost irrelevant because of that), which would be REALLY boring to watch (as Siyko also mentioned in his 100% run audio when leveling ^^) and on top of that cost so damn much extra-time, that really messes up your end-time!

In hope for more team-support soon...

Best regards

FraGFroG

Edit: I gonna take the catacombs norm now, as my next scout-area.

shoop

2009-11-27 04:11:55 am

Hey FragFrog,

I am glad to see you are trying to raise the level of professionalism for this run and I think it will certainly benefit the quality. I also think it's good to try and motivate everyone to do a good job. But,

Quote from FraGFroG:

What a crappy argument is this? I thought this is a speedrunning-site, being all about FAST playthroughs and not a site where you just show some boring videos of yourself playing all the pc-games out there through at an almost random speed, without giving any thoughts about speed. Well I don't know about you, but that is definitely NOT the site that I experienced here...
[...]
In hope for more team-support soon...

C'mon, give your teammates some time to adapt to your ideas. Obviously a >8 player group is harder to set in motion than a 2 player group. No need to stress everyone out.

mfb

2009-11-27 04:57:05 am

Countess in normal:

Code:

	level1	level2	level3	level4	level5	sum
run1	0,5	1	1	1	2	5,5
run2	1	2	1	1	2	7
run3	1	2	1	1	2	7
run4	0,5	0,5	0,5	1	2	4,5
run5	0	0,5	2	0,5	2	5
run6	1	1	1	1	2	6
run7	1	0,5	1	0	1,5	4
run8	0,5	1	1	1	2	5,5
run9	0,5	1	0,5	2	1,5	5,5
run10	1	0,5	2	0,5	2	6
avg.	0,7	1	1,1	0,9	1,9	5,6

level 5 includes the countess.
With an area of ~0,1 to 0,2 per level, i had an average of 5,6 bosses (min 4, max 7) in ~0,75 => boss density 5,6/0,75=7,5.

In 3 runs, the tower was visible from the waypoint.

Remarkable is that there is a boss or champ group in almost every level. The total number of boss groups in level 1 to 5 (without countess and champions) may follow a poisson distribution (avg. 3,9, number of bosses: 2 2 3 3 4 4 4 5 6 6).

FraGFroG

2009-11-27 05:56:26 am

@Shoop: Bimanc is not part of our team yet (he hasn't declared the will to join so far).
So he's just a discussion-partner here and to be honest (I like being honest) his comment here

Quote from bimanc:

And finally, you really need to power level that much in an 8-player run?

really deserved given such an answer imho, cause it's really discouraging for our team to hear such things, rather than for example "Ludicrous speed.......GOOOO!!!!!!!!!" (honorableJay's cheering in Siykos run thread after my sub-hour was announced here ;)) or some sort of that. Also I already explained this leveling strat in my assassins-topic (and I'm sure he read it) and I mentioned it here before and you can see it in my speedrun-video excessively too, so there is no real excuse for ignorance for him anymore.
However, if he would've been an interested player, I would've maybe answered a little bit more nicely, so that I don't destroy the team-atmosphere.

Anyway, now for some more data on the catacombs normal:

catacombs 1:
avg. bosses: 2,65
min: 1,5; max: 4
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,5 --> boss-density: 2,65/0,5 = 5,3

catacombs 2:
avg. bosses: 3,05
min: 2,5; max: 5 (kinda special on 1 run, all other runs were max: 3,5)
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,5 --> boss-density: 3,05/0,5 = 6,1

catacombs 3:
avg. bosses: 2,85
min: 1,5; max: 3,5
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,5 --> boss-density: 2,85/0,5 = 5,7

catacombs 4:
avg. bosses: 0,4
min: 0; max: 1
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,2 --> boss-density: 0,4/0,2 = 2

The results for Level 1-3 catacombs are approximately on the same level as the Jail 2 data (which was placed third in the last ranking), so the catas might be of interest for 1-2 teams to level in (if all other better areas are occupied already). 1 Team can go Inner Cloister --> Level 2 and another one can go Level 2 --> Level 4 on the same time for example.

@Shoop: Bimanc is not part of our team yet (he hasn't declared the will to join so far).
So he's just a discussion-partner here and to be honest (I like being honest) his comment here 
[quote="bimanc"]And finally, you really need to power level that much in an 8-player run?[/quote]
really deserved given such an answer imho, cause it's really discouraging for our team to hear such things, rather than for example "Ludicrous speed.......GOOOO!!!!!!!!!" (honorableJay's cheering in Siykos run thread after my sub-hour was announced here ;)) or some sort of that. Also I already explained this leveling strat in my assassins-topic (and I'm sure he read it) and I mentioned it here before and you can see it in my speedrun-video excessively too, so there is no real excuse for ignorance for him anymore.
However, if he would've been an interested player, I would've maybe answered a little bit more nicely, so that I don't destroy the team-atmosphere.

Anyway, now for some more data on the catacombs normal:

catacombs 1:
avg. bosses: 2,65
min: 1,5; max: 4
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,5 --> boss-density: 2,65/0,5 = 5,3

catacombs 2:
avg. bosses: 3,05
min: 2,5; max: 5 (kinda special on 1 run, all other runs were max: 3,5)
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,5 --> boss-density: 3,05/0,5 = 6,1

catacombs 3:
avg. bosses: 2,85
min: 1,5; max: 3,5
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,5 --> boss-density: 2,85/0,5 = 5,7

catacombs 4:
avg. bosses: 0,4
min: 0; max: 1
minimap-size on the screen: ~0,2 --> boss-density: 0,4/0,2 = 2

The results for Level 1-3 catacombs are approximately on the same level as the Jail 2 data (which was placed third in the last ranking), so the catas might be of interest for 1-2 teams to level in (if all other better areas are occupied already). 1 Team can go Inner Cloister --> Level 2 and another one can go Level 2 --> Level 4 on the same time for example.

bimanc

2009-11-27 06:05:28 am

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

I don't really understand this. Frag, you mentioned just now, that you killed bosses on the way, and this will be your strategy in this run, too. I suggested the same thing. Kill bosses on the way when you go for quests or waypoints. But you scout ares like hole and pit, which obviusly not on the way. What i wanted to suggest that you shouldn't go to areas you don't have to, and in an 8-player game, you will get exp much faster. The characters will reach 12-14 very quickly, and what level do you want to reach in a1? If your characters' level are too high, then your run is unoptimized, since the leveling is faster in a2.

I always thought that more players mean more enemies, too. It is true on nightmare and hell, at least, but with normal, i was maybe wrong.

You are right with chatedral, i just thought i mention it. I visited that area more than 10 times, so i saw many things there.

Anyway, you can of course do this on your way. You asked for suggestions, but it's up to you, how you plan this thing. Good luck for the run!

I don't really understand this. Frag, you mentioned just now, that you killed bosses on the way, and this will be your strategy in this run, too. I suggested the same thing. Kill bosses on the way when you go for quests or waypoints. But you scout ares like hole and pit, which obviusly not on the way. What i wanted to suggest that you shouldn't go to areas you don't have to, and in an 8-player game, you will get exp much faster. The characters will reach 12-14 very quickly, and what level do you want to reach in a1? If your characters' level are too high, then your run is unoptimized, since the leveling is faster in a2.

I always thought that more players mean more enemies, too. It is true on nightmare and hell, at least, but with normal, i was maybe wrong.

You are right with chatedral, i just thought i mention it. I visited that area more than 10 times, so i saw many things there.

Anyway, you can of course do this on your way. You asked for suggestions, but it's up to you, how you plan this thing. Good luck for the run!

FraGFroG

Edit history:

FraGFroG: 2009-11-27 06:36:38 am

2009-11-27 06:15:47 am

Well, seems like you haven't read the strategy on page 2 yet. Here is it:

Quote from FraGFroG:

The basic idea of this setup is to fully abuse static + finishing skills in normal and nightmare. If you combine that with 4 seperate 2-player-teams (1 static-sorc + 1 finishing character each team) always exping the best-xp-areas around you can get some INSANE fast leveling done. One of the 2-player-teams (the highest one always) will then be responsible for proceeding the act with the necessary quests.

And the rest should become clear if you reread the explanation about the Level-25-XP-mountain again, that I explained in the first answer to your post...

Quote from bimanc:

I always thought that more players mean more enemies, too. It is true on nightmare and hell, at least, but with normal, i was maybe wrong.

You still owe me a serious source for that claim, because mfb and me have never heard of such a thing (and we know a lot about D2, considering that we both planned and killed the uber-tristram bosses completly naked with 8-players on hardcore some month ago...)
Yep we are 2 participants of that 8-player team who did it - you probably read about it on many D2-pages back then... here are the video-links, if you haven't seen it yet:

Well, seems like you haven't read the strategy on page 2 yet. Here is it:
[quote="FraGFroG"]
The basic idea of this setup is to fully abuse static + finishing skills in normal and nightmare. If you combine that with 4 seperate 2-player-teams (1 static-sorc + 1 finishing character each team) always exping the best-xp-areas around you can get some INSANE fast leveling done. One of the 2-player-teams (the highest one always) will then be responsible for proceeding the act with the necessary quests. 
[/quote]

And the rest should become clear if you reread the explanation about the Level-25-XP-mountain again, that I explained in the first answer to your post...

[quote="bimanc"]
I always thought that more players mean more enemies, too. It is true on nightmare and hell, at least, but with normal, i was maybe wrong. 
[/quote]

You still owe me a serious source for that claim, because mfb and me have never heard of such a thing (and we know a lot about D2, considering that we both planned and killed the uber-tristram bosses completly naked with 8-players on hardcore some month ago...) 
Yep we are 2 participants of that 8-player team who did it - you probably read about it on many D2-pages back then... here are the video-links, if you haven't seen it yet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsr2Xv6mDO0&feature=PlayList&p=E9C46EE1768811A3&index=0&playnext=1)

bimanc

2009-11-27 07:43:58 am

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

I read the strategy, but, imho, the leveling is much faster than in a 1-2 player game, so you probably don't need to have 2-3 boss packs on every main area. The idea of having two players doing the quest, and the rest kill for exp is very smart, but you'll have four teams, and all of them should have the best maps/enemy spawns, and do the best decisions, etc. That needs a lot of luck.

I don't have a source for the more enemies theory, so i'm sorry if i'm wrong. I still say, that i face more enemies in more player games.

Why was my post discouraging? I said you can probably progress easier than you think. Does that make you discouraged?

I will stay quiet from now on, and just for your happiness, here's a "Ludicrous speed.......GOOOO!!!!!!!!!". I'm out.

mfb

Edit history:

mfb: 2009-11-27 08:29:31 am

2009-11-27 08:04:56 am

We don't need the full party to run to the next area, so some groups can go leveling until we reach Andariel. The countess is wonderful here, as we can get some runes for stealth and leaf, too. Reaching level 12 and 18 early helps at killing and teleporting, too - FraGFroGs solo-run is a good example for this.

For example, segments could look like this (not including shopping-segments):

1.: den of evil (4 players), find wp stony field (2*2 or 4)
2.: underground passage (all), find wp dark wood (split up here) <-- Level 6 after this segment.

if we don't find the inifuss scroll in segment 2:
-- 3.: find scroll (4), find wp black marsh (4)
-- 4.: pure trist-run (all)
if we find it in segment 2 (preferred):
-- 3.: pure trist-run (all)
-- 4.: countess (4), tristram (2), find wp black marsh (2)

5.: countess (4), tristram (2), find wp outer cloister (2)
6.: countess (2), trist (2), find wp jail(2*2)
7.: countess (2), jail/barracks (2) or pit, find wp inner cloister (2*2)
8.: countess (2), jail/barracks (2) or pit, find wp catacombs (2*2)
9.: countess (2), jail/barracks (2) or pit, find andariel (2*2) => kill andariel (4, 6 or 8)

This is just a sketch, the important point is that we can (and should) use these leveling-areas very often.
During the tristrun, nobody is running to andariel. We need level ~9 for fast killing (static ~4), so that may be necessary to increase the speed in the following segments.

We'll have to see which part needs which time, so maybe some teams are changed. Manipulation keeps the longest time as short as possible and eliminates deaths, the boss number cannot be manipulated for every group, we will have to look that the sum is acceptable. The countess runes are manipulated, 1 per run (maybe 0 in some segments if we want less runes).

We don't need the full party to run to the next area, so some groups can go leveling until we reach Andariel. The countess is wonderful here, as we can get some runes for stealth and leaf, too. Reaching level 12 and 18 early helps at killing and teleporting, too - FraGFroGs solo-run is a good example for this.

For example, segments could look like this (not including shopping-segments):

1.: den of evil (4 players), find wp stony field (2*2 or 4)
2.: underground passage (all), find wp dark wood (split up here) <-- Level 6 after this segment.

if we don't find the inifuss scroll in segment 2:
-- 3.: find scroll (4), find wp black marsh (4)
-- 4.: pure trist-run (all)
if we find it in segment 2 (preferred):
-- 3.: pure trist-run (all)
-- 4.: countess (4), tristram (2), find wp black marsh (2)

5.: countess (4), tristram (2), find wp outer cloister (2)
6.: countess (2), trist (2), find wp jail(2*2)
7.: countess (2), jail/barracks (2) or pit, find wp inner cloister (2*2)
8.: countess (2), jail/barracks (2) or pit, find wp catacombs (2*2)
9.: countess (2), jail/barracks (2) or pit, find andariel (2*2) => kill andariel (4, 6 or 8[b][/b])

This is just a sketch, the important point is that we can (and should) use these leveling-areas very often.
During the tristrun, nobody is running to andariel. We need level ~9 for fast killing (static ~4), so that may be necessary to increase the speed in the following segments.

We'll have to see which part needs which time, so maybe some teams are changed. Manipulation keeps the longest time as short as possible and eliminates deaths, the boss number cannot be manipulated for every group, we will have to look that the sum is acceptable. The countess runes are manipulated, 1 per run (maybe 0 in some segments if we want less runes).

FraGFroG

Edit history:

FraGFroG: 2009-11-27 09:10:18 am

2009-11-27 08:40:13 am

Quote from bimanc:

The idea of having two players doing the quest, and the rest kill for exp is very smart, but you'll have four teams, and all of them should have the best maps/enemy spawns, and do the best decisions, etc. That needs a lot of luck.

I'm aware, that this needs some luck-manipulation, but that's the whole point of scouting out areas, where you have high boss-densities and very little variances in the number of bosses you encounter, so that you don't have to manipulate for these mass-boss-segments (for 4 teams) but can rather focus more on the map of the quest-team, good runes, no deaths and so on... For this purpose, in act 1 tristram, the tower and barracks are just the perfect areas, because they have such a great boss-density and so little variances, as you can see in our analyses up there.

LeWoVoc

2009-11-27 08:48:09 am

While I know you have a ton of D2 knowledge, having an ego, being closed minded to new suggestions, and assuming everyone has the same knowledge is no way to plan a speed run.

That being said, the plan seems rather stable at this point. Sorry I haven't been able to contribute a lot to the thread, I've been away.

gia

2009-11-27 09:09:24 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Try posting an already setup character file, not everyone should have an active character on bnet.

zoonel

2009-11-27 09:39:08 am

Go play spacechem !

I dont have D2 installed anymore so i cant help, but i'm wondering : the countess towers offers perhaps some good boss pack but you must find them and without teleport it sucks

Quote:

22-25 are always a really BIG bottle-neck

-> check the council in travincal if you can get there at lvl 20 or so, should take less then 30 sec or so and it gives huge xp
Now there may be faster area for only 1 person or 2 person teams but if an area is good for 8 ppl it must be good for 2 if they can kill as fast. I've never see a better levelling place to reach 25 without a higher character helping.

Later maybe instead of baalruns (actually it should be called minions runs) you can split your party in half and do ballrun+sanctuary runs (sanctuary runs = kill the 3 sealed boss packs). those are preferred for a reason, you dont have to walk to find bosses, you just need to get there and then kill.