Dark Messiah of Might and Magic (DMoMM)

2014-01-03 01:58:29 pm

I found couple cool skips. should save around 10s.
And saves nice ammount of time cause you dont need Percy to run to the door. (I believe this is caused by this http://wiki.sourceruns.org/wiki/Teleporting maybe usefull in other places?)

helloagain

Edit history:

helloagain: 2014-01-06 06:51:22 am

2014-01-06 06:46:18 am

Great work! Finally there is a run of one of my favourite games.

One thing is left of that I know which could be used in a SS run. The purple gem (the one where you kill the lich) can be grabbed from the "wrong" side. Open the gate on your left at 20:35 through the wall by leaning in it. My suggestion for the route is from here. Before opening the gate go to the spider statue and put in the first gem. Now open the lower gate, jump down and get the orange gem. Swim through the water and climb the chain, open the gate and you get at the backside of the lich. Getting the purple gem is a little bit tricky but reliable. Jump at the chain and turn your back to the lich. Now climb down so that you climb into the coffin. Jump of so that you are "stuck" and lean to get the gem. Wait a few seconds and you can run the way back to the spiderstatue. Get the last gem and end the level.

Im trying to figure out more. I would love to see that this run gets down to 45 min. Keep up with the great work.

Edit:
One question to the run. Why do you start at 11:16 in the room? How can you manipulate your starting position for this map? And can it be combined with kicking? If you smash kick at the start you can skip the animation of Sareth getting up.

Great work! Finally there is a run of one of my favourite games.

One thing is left of that I know which could be used in a SS run. The purple gem (the one where you kill the lich) can be grabbed from the "wrong" side. Open the gate on your left at 20:35 through the wall by leaning in it. My suggestion for the route is from here. Before opening the gate go to the spider statue and put in the first gem. Now open the lower gate, jump down and get the orange gem. Swim through the water and climb the chain, open the gate and you get at the backside of the lich. Getting the purple gem is a little bit tricky but reliable. Jump at the chain and turn your back to the lich. Now climb down so that you climb into the coffin. Jump of so that you are "stuck" and lean to get the gem. Wait a few seconds and you can run the way back to the spiderstatue. Get the last gem and end the level.

Im trying to figure out more. I would love to see that this run gets down to 45 min. Keep up with the great work.

Edit:
One question to the run. Why do you start at 11:16 in the room? How can you manipulate your starting position for this map? And can it be combined with kicking? If you smash kick at the start you can skip the animation of Sareth getting up.

Elgu

2014-01-07 08:57:18 pm

Go fast

Personally the only reason why I wont go for the early purple gem is that I seem to get stuck like 75% of the time and the only way to get unstuck would be to save and load couple times.

Quote from helloagain:

Why do you start at 11:16 in the room? How can you manipulate your starting position for this map? And can it be combined with kicking? If you smash kick at the start you can skip the animation of Sareth getting up.

At 11:16 you can actually run during the black screen part just by simply sprinting and going forward. And yes you can combine that with kicking to skip the animation.

Coolguye

2014-01-09 04:47:00 pm

This is awesome! I've been practicing a bit to train up for a SS expressly to go to SGDQ, and in the few months I've been preoccupied with family issues someone's not only completed a coherent SS run, it's even faster than I thought possible!

A few questions though:
1) How did you get the rush on the docks to the ship in Chapter 4 right? I have tried that dozens of times and I always get completely slaughtered. My only way of making it reliable was to skip a couple gate tricks in the early game to make Sanctuary attainable by Chapter 4.
2) How on EARTH did you get the gate tricks so reliable? Could you give any pointers on that? Even with the relatively easy gate trick on Dead Man's Trail my success rate is roughly 50%, which I feel is too unreliable for SS.
3) What difficulty are you playing on? Normal? I had been practicing on Hardcore, but aside from the few instances of forced combat in the game (such as the courtyard at the beginning of Chapter 5) the route would not be substantially different.

This is awesome!  I've been practicing a bit to train up for a SS expressly to go to SGDQ, and in the few months I've been preoccupied with family issues someone's not only completed a coherent SS run, it's even faster than I thought possible!

A few questions though:
1) How did you get the rush on the docks to the ship in Chapter 4 right?  I have tried that dozens of times and I always get completely slaughtered.  My only way of making it reliable was to skip a couple gate tricks in the early game to make Sanctuary attainable by Chapter 4.
2) How on EARTH did you get the gate tricks so reliable?  Could you give any pointers on that?  Even with the relatively easy gate trick on Dead Man's Trail my success rate is roughly 50%, which I feel is too unreliable for SS.
3) What difficulty are you playing on?  Normal?  I had been practicing on Hardcore, but aside from the few instances of forced combat in the game (such as the courtyard at the beginning of Chapter 5) the route would not be substantially different.

Remote

2014-01-10 01:23:23 am

I've had some problems doing the gate trick in general. I can get it on the first one, but never the second. Here's a video of me trying.

Could you give an aspiring speedrunner some tips? Thanks.

Elgu

2014-01-10 07:34:40 am

Go fast

Quote from Remote:

Could you give an aspiring speedrunner some tips?

You cant clip with that box, you need to clip with a barrel.

I recomend watching youtl's SS run for setups, tricks and stuff like that. (He posted the SS run couple posts above)

youtl

2014-01-11 01:53:19 am

@coolguye
1) to get to the ship you've just gotta be fast even so its still 50/50 maybe whether you make it or not.
2) all the gate tricks which can destroy barrels are un-reliable for SS but having said that each skips is different and requires certain setup, object and execution. that shoud answer remote's question aswell
3) playing on normal. the route would not change at all if we did it on hardcore apart from a couple of fights using the fire arrow spell maybe.

if anyone is interested i did 2 runs for srg3 and some interesting bugs came up during both.
Heres an orc opening the gate for me. http://www.twitch.tv/srgmarathon/c/3404574?t=21m30s
the second run i did during bonus because obs died 50 mins into the first one.
the bug in the second run was inputs getting locked after trying to skip the warehouse and i had to unplug my keyboard and mouse then plug it back in to reset input. That run is somewhere in the past broadcasts.

Coolguye

2014-01-11 10:51:34 am

The route would actually have to change quite a bit in the first part if you're only 50/50 on the ship run. All damage taken in Hardcore is doubled with respect to normal, so a grazing hit from a ballista shot would be 40 or 50 damage instead of 20 or 25. This would mandate skipping a couple gate tricks in order to get Sanctuary by that time. Sanctuary + Ring of Arcane Brilliance = 30 mana, which is just enough to use the spell. If you have Sanct by that time though, it is 100% safe and you can only mess it up if you are completely asleep at the switch. In my runs I actually wait for the ballista in front of the gangway to fire at me so I am assured that it won't fire in the middle of my jump, which spoils my trajectory and ruins the skip. This...has happened a lot. :p

That being the case, we might consider what an early-sanct route looks like, sacrificing as little time as possible. I'll pop into the game and look at what that would require later today.

More minorly, you'd also have to change the parts in the game where you use charge attack cancellation. Orcs in particular are hellaciously tough and are capable of killing you in one hit if they connect, which they sometimes can because they can 'shrug off' hits from the shortsword occasionally in Hardcore. But that is not a humongous deal since all the instant kills and TK kills still work fine. Also minorly, on hardcore you'll probably want to hit both trees coming down from the Chapter 2 skip, because otherwise you're going to take about 35-40 damage and that will linger with you until after the ship.

Perhaps a better question on the gate tricks: How did you learn to handle the gate tricks? I presume 'lots and lots of practice', because that's true for any trick, but which one did you master first? It's difficult to interpret what you're doing wrong when it doesn't go right, even developer mode on the console doesn't tell you much when it activates as opposed to when it doesn't. It's definitely a reproducible thing, though, as when I do a recording of me doing it, it works every single time though.

The route would actually have to change quite a bit in the first part if you're only 50/50 on the ship run.  All damage taken in Hardcore is doubled with respect to normal, so a grazing hit from a ballista shot would be 40 or 50 damage instead of 20 or 25.  This would mandate skipping a couple gate tricks in order to get Sanctuary by that time.  Sanctuary + Ring of Arcane Brilliance = 30 mana, which is just enough to use the spell.  If you have Sanct by that time though, it is 100% safe and you can only mess it up if you are completely asleep at the switch.  In my runs I actually wait for the ballista in front of the gangway to fire at me so I am assured that it won't fire in the middle of my jump, which spoils my trajectory and ruins the skip.  This...has happened a lot. :p

That being the case, we might consider what an early-sanct route looks like, sacrificing as little time as possible.  I'll pop into the game and look at what that would require later today.

More minorly, you'd also have to change the parts in the game where you use charge attack cancellation.  Orcs in particular are hellaciously tough and are capable of killing you in one hit if they connect, which they sometimes can because they can 'shrug off' hits from the shortsword occasionally in Hardcore.  But that is not a humongous deal since all the instant kills and TK kills still work fine.  Also minorly, on hardcore you'll probably want to hit both trees coming down from the Chapter 2 skip, because otherwise you're going to take about 35-40 damage and that will linger with you until after the ship.

Perhaps a better question on the gate tricks: How did you learn to handle the gate tricks?  I presume 'lots and lots of practice', because that's true for any trick, but which one did you master first?  It's difficult to interpret what you're doing wrong when it doesn't go right, even developer mode on the console doesn't tell you much when it activates as opposed to when it doesn't.  It's definitely a reproducible thing, though, as when I do a recording of me doing it, it works every single time though.

Coolguye

2014-01-11 01:08:23 pm

OK, you need 11 skill points to get Sanctuary. By the time you're talking to Leanna in Across the Seas of Blood, you appear to have 6 skill points. The lowest-hanging fruit there would be in the warehouse in Dead Man's Trail. If you gate-trick in and then open the kitchen door, where a Black Guard usually sits, you can activate the trigger that says you penetrated the warehouse. If you are quick turning around and running to the trap door, it will close behind you and you won't have to waste time killing the key-holder. This is an extra skill point for maybe 1-2 seconds. But that said, if you kill the key-holder by camping his spawn and kicking him directly into the spiked wall, you can get another skill point for only another few second outlay.

That only puts you at 8 points though and it gets a lot harder to decide what you should do from there. The two options are taking back the Shantiri Crystal from Arantir or killing the Cyclops in chapter 1, both of which have lengthy cutscenes on them. They both give you 3 skill points though, which would be just enough for Sanct. Gotta give love to Cookie Exterminator on this one for cataloging where all that comes from in some youtube messages we traded a few months back.

Of the two I think that taking the Shantiri Crystal would be better. I can double check the times but from messing with it I have a good gut feeling that will be shorter. And the lean exploit to get around the Cyclops in Chapter 1 is WAY easier to do than a gate trick, which is a good footnote for SS strats.

OK, you need 11 skill points to get Sanctuary.  By the time you're talking to Leanna in Across the Seas of Blood, you appear to have 6 skill points.  The lowest-hanging fruit there would be in the warehouse in Dead Man's Trail.  If you gate-trick in and then open the kitchen door, where a Black Guard usually sits, you can activate the trigger that says you penetrated the warehouse.  If you are quick turning around and running to the trap door, it will close behind you and you won't have to waste time killing the key-holder.  This is an extra skill point for maybe 1-2 seconds.  But that said, if you kill the key-holder by camping his spawn and kicking him directly into the spiked wall, you can get another skill point for only another few second outlay.

That only puts you at 8 points though and it gets a lot harder to decide what you should do from there.  The two options are taking back the Shantiri Crystal from Arantir or killing the Cyclops in chapter 1, both of which have lengthy cutscenes on them.  They both give you 3 skill points though, which would be just enough for Sanct.  Gotta give love to Cookie Exterminator on this one for cataloging where all that comes from in some youtube messages we traded a few months back.

Of the two I think that taking the Shantiri Crystal would be better.  I can double check the times but from messing with it I have a good gut feeling that will be shorter.  And the lean exploit to get around the Cyclops in Chapter 1 is WAY easier to do than a gate trick, which is a good footnote for SS strats.

youtl

Edit history:

youtl: 2014-01-11 01:43:18 pm

2014-01-11 01:33:35 pm

sanctuary is not necessary for the ship even on hardcore i just did it and took only 15 damage.
for the sake of not posting again.
elgu's rooftop chase skip

Quote:

I found couple cool skips. should save around 10s.

its possible to make with a regular jump to clear the gap between buildings and a power attack with the sword to cancel the "fall to death" animation
you can also use the cancel to preserve full health for the entire rooftop chase/warehouse sequence not that it matters because leanna full heals you in the sewers...

helloagain

2014-01-11 04:16:50 pm

Quote:

Heres an orc opening the gate for me. http://www.twitch.tv/srgmarathon/c/3404574?t=21m30s

I also got this ones without using charm, but no idea how it works.

Another thing is, that I think its possible to skip all the orcs in Chapter 5.1. Run directly to the ropebow and activate the chain. This deactivates an invisible wall and we can climb on the wooden pillar above the hole with the ropebow and jump to the end of the level. The skip here would be going left, right in the room that is blocked with a few wooden planks. Clipping through the right wall would get us on an invisible wall and we could get in the loading zone for 5.2. The wall is not really thin but its possible to skip the thick wall in the spidertempel to the orange gem with a rope trick. So if someone wants to look into this, have fun.

While trying this I found another useless glitch. Throwing a barrel and immediately jumping at a rope stores the throw. The barrel just flies within you and you can run around. Drawing a weapon gets the barrel ejected. Its just weird.

[quote]Heres an orc opening the gate for me. http://www.twitch.tv/srgmarathon/c/3404574?t=21m30s[/quote]
I also got this ones without using charm, but no idea how it works.

Another thing is, that I think its possible to skip all the orcs in Chapter 5.1. Run directly to the ropebow and activate the chain. This deactivates an invisible wall and we can climb on the wooden pillar above the hole with the ropebow and jump to the end of the level. The skip here would be going left, right in the room that is blocked with a few wooden planks. Clipping through the right wall would get us on an invisible wall and we could get in the loading zone for 5.2. The wall is not really thin but its possible to skip the thick wall in the spidertempel to the orange gem with a rope trick. So if someone wants to look into this, have fun.

While trying this I found another useless glitch. Throwing a barrel and immediately jumping at a rope stores the throw. The barrel just flies within you and you can run around. Drawing a weapon gets the barrel ejected. Its just weird.

Coolguye

2014-01-11 04:27:36 pm

Oh good call, I forgot that Leanna heals you when you meet her. That makes things a lot less messy if you're trying the ship charge on Hardcore. I'll have to mess with it a little bit more, but when I was playing with it and talking to Cookie Exterminator about it, he had very bad luck with it and I didn't fare much better. With how efficient DMoMM's quick save/load is you can probably get at least 5 tries at it before it starts to make more sense to get early sanct.

Helloagain, would you mind making a quick video about what you're looking at there? I'm gonna play with it a bit today but my concern is Leanna getting her face kicked in by orcs. Her AI is really bad and her only offense is flame arrow, which the orcs resist. If you can't get to it in the next few days I'll probably look into it and see what I can make of it though.

youtl

2014-01-11 04:51:55 pm

nice skip but its not good for SS the oob tricks using the rope arrow are to random. you could be resetting 50 times before you can entirely clip through that wall.

Quote:

Leanna getting her face kicked in by orcs.

you can tell her to wait...

Coolguye

2014-01-11 04:58:11 pm

She does not acknowledge Wait commands until she's finished talking about the Temple next to the wounded Stonehelm soldier, unless there's a few frames in there I keep consistently missing. Further, after you pull the chain near the rope bow, she marches forward regardless of what's up, and she will definitely attract Orc attention at that point.

helloagain

Edit history:

helloagain: 2014-01-12 03:55:18 am

2014-01-11 07:35:49 pm

https://www.dropbox.com/home/dmom%26m/dmomm

Just a short movie with noclip how the route could be and another one showing a rope trick. Even if its possible its pretty random, nothing for a SS, but this invisible floor is so convenient. Leanna is also really risky.

Edit:
@Coolguye
Also there is a second way to get on the boat.
Go in the left corner in the room with Leanna, jump and grab a box through the wall. Clip through the small gate by throwing the box and crouching. Use the crane and walljump on it.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ok6lu30hrnjhcg/chapter%204%20another%20boat%20skip.MP4

Coolguye

2014-01-12 08:13:11 am

helloagain: That's a pretty quality skip of the painfully long conversation with Leanna. The side benefit is that it also gets you halfway up the gangway to the ballista skip, which may or may not make a difference there. I had actually been experimenting with the tower climbing skip yesterday evening but didn't quite perfect the technique to climb it before I had to go to bed, so it's cool to see we're in sync there. Smiley

youtl

Edit history:

youtl: 2014-01-21 09:19:52 am

2014-01-20 05:26:26 pm

just finished a hardcore run in 49:28 but it was full of mistakes (i reloaded saves 6 or 7 times) otherwise it would have been as quick as SS pb
just did another run and got 48:39 with 3 or 4 reloads so its pretty doable

youtl

2014-01-21 01:13:52 pm

http://www.twitch.tv/youtl/c/3587651

youtl

2014-01-24 04:09:21 pm

new strats
thanks to elgu_ the horse cutscene can be skipped at the beginning
and you can make it past the ballistas from the left side after clipping though the bars but it's far more unreliable than waiting.
and sword dashing Grin

lillbrorsan

2014-02-16 05:02:42 pm

Truljin @ Twitch

that is really neat Cheesy

lillbrorsan

Edit history:

lillbrorsan: 2014-02-17 03:33:07 pm

2014-02-17 03:30:02 pm

Truljin @ Twitch

Any video of the new horse skip or an explanation of how to do it?

Nvm, found it! Have to try that Cheesy

SocratesJohnson

2014-02-20 02:52:13 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

Just picked this up cheap on Steam, and been thinking of running it. I played the hell out of this game years ago, think I'll give it a shot. Wink

GameOverBoston

Edit history:

GameOverBoston: 2014-02-24 06:16:04 am

2014-02-24 05:30:50 am

Just started running this game a few days ago, I hear people say you cant clip second tutorial gate with a box but I get it first try almost everytime am I using an incorrect version where this is possible? I also cant seem to get lean glitch to work which me think i may be on the wrong version

edit: nevermind graphical glitch caused brackets to not show up on items at all, fixed it now.

youtl

2014-02-24 07:12:17 am

during the tutorial use the box for the first door and a barrel for the second
the latest version is 1.02 (steam version) and older versions dont really have any changes apart from balance/dificulty changes graphics updates and being less stable than the most recent version

Quote:

nevermind graphical glitch caused brackets to not show up on items at all

thats sounds like your missing some files.

GameOverBoston

2014-02-24 07:39:09 am

Yea I had to verify game cache due to the crash on startup glitch, now everythings back to normal. Watching your WR right now, working for sub 49 this week.