Castlevania 2: Simon's Quest

2012-01-26 07:12:49 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

Quote from anachronism:

Thoughts?

Quote from puwexil:

I'd also recommend posting your ideas for improving the run either here or in the CV2 thread Skullboy linked to above, so other forum members familiar with the game can give you feedback.

RaneofSOTN

2012-01-26 09:59:41 pm

I want off the ride....

anachronism i can't really be of much help cause I kept trying to see about following the sub-40 route while remaining deathless but I found the hearts dropped (from the enemies to the left of town) are a bit uncommon {at least with my luck}.

Are you 100% that running through the swamp is ideal? Where as the sub 40 run that was brought up (hopefully in the linke dthread i am too lazy to look) just consisted of tight farmign to the left of the town, then skeleton farming which gave him mostly enough hearts for the rest of the game. I won't argue that the 2nd best whip early wouldn't help but the question is... how are you doing TIMEWISE?

2012-02-20 06:39:36 pm

SGL Scrublord

Was there ever an official statement on the falling through floors glitch? I'd hate to use it in a marathon and create all kinds of false hope.

Edit history:

Heidrage: 2012-02-20 06:55:32 pm

Heidrage: 2012-02-20 06:52:03 pm

2012-02-20 06:42:57 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

The TAS comments states that it is not reliable. They were unable to figure out how it works exactly, they just keep doing it till it does.

Edit: Taken from http://tasvideos.org/503S.html

Quote:

This game has a really cool glitch! Falling through floor. I use this as much as possible where I can profit from it. However, this is without question the hardest and most stupid glitch ever to perform! Even after doing this time attack I can't fully describe how it works. I noticed a couple of things though which might help if anyone wants to learn more about it:

First, to perform it you need to find a place where there are a ledge exactly 2 block higher then the level under it. Stand on this ledge/whatever, walk out, and the moment you start fall, hit the air with your whip. If done right you will fall through the floor!
When you start to fall from that ledge Simon (the hero) can fall in 2 different ways. Either he stands tall and falls orelse he is sort of crouching in the air and then starts the fall.

To be able to fall through the floor you MUST be in this crouching form, else I found it impossible to do.

Third, it either works or does not work. This helps actually when testing it. So if you are in crouching form and think you are gonna start falling through the floor but you are not, then you don't have to try another 1000 times.
Forth, to affect this you can try to do some small changes. For example is hitting air with the whip a good thing. This might affect whatever keeps you from succeding. And I do this quite often in my run.

Edit2: Yay for me reading every submission text of every run of every game I am interested in...

The TAS comments states that it is not reliable. They were unable to figure out how it works exactly, they just keep doing it till it does.

Edit: Taken from http://tasvideos.org/503S.html
[quote]This game has a really cool glitch! Falling through floor. I use this as much as possible where I can profit from it. However, this is without question the hardest and most stupid glitch ever to perform! Even after doing this time attack I can't fully describe how it works. I noticed a couple of things though which might help if anyone wants to learn more about it:

First, to perform it you need to find a place where there are a ledge exactly 2 block higher then the level under it. Stand on this ledge/whatever, walk out, and the moment you start fall, hit the air with your whip. If done right you will fall through the floor!
    When you start to fall from that ledge Simon (the hero) can fall in 2 different ways. Either he stands tall and falls orelse he is sort of crouching in the air and then starts the fall.

To be able to fall through the floor you MUST be in this crouching form, else I found it impossible to do.

Third, it either works or does not work. This helps actually when testing it. So if you are in crouching form and think you are gonna start falling through the floor but you are not, then you don't have to try another 1000 times.
    Forth, to affect this you can try to do some small changes. For example is hitting air with the whip a good thing. This might affect whatever keeps you from succeding. And I do this quite often in my run. [/quote]

Edit2: Yay for me reading every submission text of every run of every game I am interested in...

2012-05-03 02:01:59 pm

SGL Scrublord

After 2 months of marathon practice, I can officially say its not perfectly reliable, but there are spots where trying it a few times will still save time over actually walking around a screen. Then there is a threshold of tries where you then have like 2-3 more attempts to break even timewise if it isn't working out well. It also seems the more activity there is on a given screen, the larger the window for a successful whip drop. The screen in front of Goulash is a good example, as your first whip drop attempt is done with three enemies on screen and its much easier to trigger with the inherent slowdown.

I'm not sure the frame window, but according to the TAS forums, you need the right input AND the game must not be checking for Simon's feet being on the ground. The forum's best guess is that it checks for his feet positioning every other frame. By the time it checks again, Simon's feet are below the top and he sinks until he can touch another floor. Sometimes, the timing syncs up and you can drop much farther than normal, notably in the orb room of the Heart Mansion.

I'll look into using this tactic to improve the on site run after SGDQ, I need to see if this makes a big difference route wise, or if a new route needs to be devised to better take advantage of it.

After 2 months of marathon practice, I can officially say its not perfectly reliable, but there are spots where trying it a few times will still save time over actually walking around a screen. Then there is a threshold of tries where you then have like 2-3 more attempts to break even timewise if it isn't working out well. It also seems the more activity there is on a given screen, the larger the window for a successful whip drop. The screen in front of Goulash is a good example, as your first whip drop attempt is done with three enemies on screen and its much easier to trigger with the inherent slowdown.

I'm not sure the frame window, but according to the TAS forums, you need the right input AND the game must not be checking for Simon's feet being on the ground. The forum's best guess is that it checks for his feet positioning every other frame. By the time it checks again, Simon's feet are below the top and he sinks until he can touch another floor. Sometimes, the timing syncs up and you can drop much farther than normal, notably in the orb room of the Heart Mansion.

I'll look into using this tactic to improve the on site run after SGDQ, I need to see if this makes a big difference route wise, or if a new route needs to be devised to better take advantage of it.

2012-07-02 10:38:06 am

SGL Scrublord

So, here's a hot new tip: skip the holy water.

MaskedMudPuppy mentioned it as a joke, but its now viable with floor dropping to entirely ignore holy water and, as such, the initial two grindings of the game. Floor drops in the Nail Mansion and in Castlevania negate the actual needs for the item. I can charge ahead to get the Blue Crystal at Day 2's sunrise, and then hit up the other two mansions and the Morning Star town by Day 3 with about a 1 minute margin of error. I am pumped and am also frequently minutes ahead of the record by the time I hit Belasco Marsh, even with RNG heart hell.

The big questions now are (A): Should I invest in the Thorn Whip on the way back towards the Belasco Marsh (That entails a grind somewhere afterwards to get another 100 hearts before I can buy the morning star, a grind made easier with the extra power of the whip. If I get the morning star before Death's Mansion, I'll definitely skip the Thorn Whip) (B) Does grinding in the first mansion to ensure enough hearts for the morning star make sense (C) Does getting the Morning Star before Death's Mansion make sense (as the Gold Knife would still be a viable tool, but fighting Death with the Leather/Thorn Whip is stupid) (D) Should I invest instead in Holy Water on the way back, to fight a few enemies below me, simplify the morning star run (damned slimes!) and to access the short cut in the Nail Mansion (I don't need it to beat it, but its about a minute faster with the water due to stairways) (E) And lastly, will this cobbling of ideas actually improve the time?

Stay tuned and feel free to get involved.

So, here's a hot new tip: skip the holy water.

MaskedMudPuppy mentioned it as a joke, but its now viable with floor dropping to entirely ignore holy water and, as such, the initial two grindings of the game. Floor drops in the Nail Mansion and in Castlevania negate the actual needs for the item. I can charge ahead to get the Blue Crystal at Day 2's sunrise, and then hit up the other two mansions and the Morning Star town by Day 3 with about a 1 minute margin of error. I am pumped and am also frequently minutes ahead of the record by the time I hit Belasco Marsh, even with RNG heart hell.

The big questions now are (A): Should I invest in the Thorn Whip on the way back towards the Belasco Marsh (That entails a grind somewhere afterwards to get another 100 hearts before I can buy the morning star, a grind made easier with the extra power of the whip. If I get the morning star before Death's Mansion, I'll definitely skip the Thorn Whip) (B) Does grinding in the first mansion to ensure enough hearts for the morning star make sense (C) Does getting the Morning Star before Death's Mansion make sense (as the Gold Knife would still be a viable tool, but fighting Death with the Leather/Thorn Whip is stupid) (D) Should I invest instead in Holy Water on the way back, to fight a few enemies below me, simplify the morning star run (damned slimes!) and to access the short cut in the Nail Mansion (I don't need it to beat it, but its about a minute faster with the water due to stairways) (E) And lastly, will this cobbling of ideas actually improve the time?

Stay tuned and feel free to get involved.

2012-07-04 08:12:41 am

Did you consider the other skip to Laruba Mansion from the screen where the Silk Bag is found? If so, you are grinding to get morning star before you fight any mansions, so you will never need the thorn whip. For the life of me I can't remember if the guy with the morning star is just standing there as you enter, or if you have to climb down (like you do for the chain whip).

Also, I assume you are going to do something like using the nail to get the flame whip (or skip it entirely as the golden knife can kill drac before he appears anyway).

I am currently routing a casual 100% through the game and I am basically using the TAS route. I kinda go out of my way for Thorn Whip to make crossing Belasco and farming near morning star easier.

Edit history:

theseawolf1: 2012-07-05 01:55:20 pm

2012-07-05 01:43:56 pm

SGL Scrublord

True, I never tried the Laruba Skip, nor do I know how it affects my route. I'm making some hard saves to practice my intended route options, but Ill look into it.

And yes, I planned on getting the flame whip as its on the way currently, though Laruba Skip might have a say in it. More info means more exitement!

2012-07-06 08:37:18 am

SGL Scrublord

Hmm, to make the Laruba skip worth it, I'd need to grind 230 or so hearts in Mansion 1 (time does not pass outside, 2 hit kills for half hearts plus I'd want to finish the mansion by that point anyways as the good grind spot is almost halfway into the place so 50 more for the stake). This lets me buy laurels to survive walking back across the HUGE marsh. Still wondering if this,plus the fancy foot work to get across Belasco, plus the risky walk to the morning star, PLUS basing my run on the RNG of a slime is worth the trouble/saves time. Not to mention this adds not 2 but 3 extra floor drops, and I don't have the TAS' heart luck. Time will tell.

2012-07-06 11:59:31 am

Willing to teach you the impossible

Have you been able to reproduce the falling threw the floor trick?

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2012-07-06 12:10:00 pm

Yagamoth: 2012-07-06 12:07:07 pm

Yagamoth: 2012-07-06 12:06:54 pm

2012-07-06 12:06:29 pm

INTJ

Oh... I guess this would also be interesting in here:

Made a short video, Fraps didn't work so I had to use Xsplit. I took some random Youtube music since I recorded the sound from theseawolfs1 stream I was watching instead of the actual game - which would be irritating.

There are a few failed attempts in there, but overall it's really really easy to pull off. Windows Movie Maker can't read it, so I can't cut it.
Even if you should fail, you can easily recognize that early and simply jump over the block and walk out normally (or screenwrap to the other side :P)

0:00 - "Frame perfect" - May be 2 frames... It's rather easy to time actually
0:28 - Not quite perfect - Huge Leeway imo
2:44 - Simply walking outside - Probably could jump a bit better at the beginning, but this wouldn't save the 4 seconds ^^

My tries are not perfect, but you can approximately see where it's going. Also, I have no idea whether you ever have to leave the castle from that point, just a short demonstration Tongue

Edit: Also to note: I've seen that purple block stuff first on theseawolf1's Channel, got a savestate from him and then simply played around a bit

Oh... I guess this would also be interesting in here:

Made a short video, Fraps didn't work so I had to use Xsplit. I took some random Youtube music since I recorded the sound from theseawolfs1 stream I was watching instead of the actual game - which would be irritating.

There are a few failed attempts in there, but overall it's really really easy to pull off. Windows Movie Maker can't read it, so I can't cut it. 
Even if you should fail, you can easily recognize that early and simply jump over the block and walk out normally (or screenwrap to the other side :P)

0:00 - "Frame perfect" - May be 2 frames... It's rather easy to time actually
0:28 - Not quite perfect - Huge Leeway imo
2:44 - Simply walking outside - Probably could jump a bit better at the beginning, but this wouldn't save the 4 seconds ^^

My tries are not perfect, but you can approximately see where it's going. Also, I have no idea whether you ever have to leave the castle from that point, just a short demonstration :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2q1jy1W7GI

Edit: Also to note: I've seen that purple block stuff first on theseawolf1's Channel, got a savestate from him and then simply played around a bit

2012-07-06 01:16:11 pm

SGL Scrublord

Ugh, so no holy water is probably dead. Grinding still takes up too much time, and you never get laurels until the 4th mansion, thus getting killed by the huge swamp in front of it. You'd need the Laruba skip to make it worth your time, and that is not at all reliable. That's going into my back pocket, and I'll do the run the way I first imagined it. If the improvement is not impressive, I'll bring it out and try again.

Heidman - Yes, that's not really an issue. In fact, I have a better idea of how to confuse the game in certain spots.

2012-07-23 08:26:08 pm

Here is the route I envisioned for any%: White Crystal > Berkeley Mansion (End of Day 0), Travel to Aljiba and farm ghouls at the top (End of Night 1), Blue Crystal, Rover Mansion, Sacred Flame, Return to Jova (End of Day 1), Farm Ghouls at top of Jova (above holy water door) (End of Night 2), Holy Water, Thorn Whip (because two-hit enemies better than four hit), Belasco Marsh, Brahms Mansion, Golden Knife, Red Crystal (End of Day 2), Farm Skeletons two screens from Ondol then enter Ondol as day breaks (End of Night 3), Morning Star, Laurels, Deborah Cliff > Bodley Mansion (End of Day 3), Flame Whip, Laruba Mansion (End of Night 4), Travel to Castlevania (End of Day 4), Defeat Dracula...

I am in the process of uploading a 100% vid to my YouTube account (let me know if you want to see it) that gets the best ending in 1h05m13s (using TwinGalaxies timing, which starts when the number of lives and GAME START screen appears).

2012-07-24 12:31:45 am

Willing to teach you the impossible

Quote from WunUnknownPlayer:

I am in the process of uploading a 100% vid to my YouTube account (let me know if you want to see it) that gets the best ending in 1h05m13s (using TwinGalaxies timing, which starts when the number of lives and GAME START screen appears).

Yes please

2012-07-24 08:14:01 am

SGL Scrublord

Always glad to get more input, more play of CV2 will resume this week

2012-08-08 09:39:09 pm

SGL Scrublord

So I tried the route above about 20 times, even though I noted an impossibility in the route. YOU CAN'T GET THE @#$%@ SACRED FLAME! No holy water. As such, battling Death is stupid hard and grinding the hearts for the morning star/laurels is prohibitively slow. Back to the classic route, and then perhaps TAS skippage action. Le sigh.

2012-08-13 09:23:04 pm

Quote from theseawolf1:

So I tried the route above about 20 times, even though I noted an impossibility in the route. YOU CAN'T GET THE @#$%@ SACRED FLAME! No holy water. As such, battling Death is stupid hard and grinding the hearts for the morning star/laurels is prohibitively slow. Back to the classic route, and then perhaps TAS skippage action. Le sigh.

Wow... that was an oversight when I typed that... So removing Sacred Flame, my next thought was Chain Whip, but you can't get that without Holy Water either... So in thinking about this a little more, I thought I might take a page from the 100% route I made... which reminds me I need to finish the annotations on that. Sorry for the misleading information in that route...

2012-08-14 01:24:39 pm

okay... just did some testing... If you try to go it without the holy water through Berkeley and Rover, your path looks something like this:

[Day 0] Start >> White Crystal >> Berkeley (if you are fast enough, you can get there before first night) == Drac's Rib >> [Night 1] Aljiba (farm briefly here) >> [Day 1] Blue Crystal >> Rover == Drac's Heart >> [Night 2] Jova (farm briefly here) >> [Day 2] Holy Water (have yet to decide to omit this in favor of fall glitch) -- I get about this far, and realize I am going to either fight Death with a Leather Whip, or go out of my way for a Morning Star...

One more option then.. Skip Death... There is no real need to fight him, as you can kill Dracula with just the Flame Whip (does just as much damage per 'hit' though is a slower). I figure I can get in five free hits before Drac starts moving, then only 11 more to win it (16 hits @ 15 damage each for his 240 health). And I can try to use a laurel (after getting them free in Laruba) in that battle, which basically makes it a no-brainer...

The real trick is getting there... so the modified path is now (and please note this is untested):
(continuing from above) >> Belasco >> Ferry (use Heart) >> Brahms == Drac's Eyeball >> Ferry >> Red Crystal >> Morning Star (note, Holy Water is not needed to get this) >> Deborah Cliff to Bodley == Drac's Nail >> Flame Whip >> Laruba == Drac's Ring >> Kill Carmilla for Holy Cross >> Castlevania and end.

This path is extremely difficult (in an already difficult game). However, there is a motto that fits speed running down to the letter: Who dares wins.

okay... just did some testing... If you try to go it without the holy water through Berkeley and Rover, your path looks something like this:

[Day 0] Start >> White Crystal >> Berkeley (if you are fast enough, you can get there before first night) == Drac's Rib >> [Night 1] Aljiba (farm briefly here) >> [Day 1] Blue Crystal >> Rover == Drac's Heart >> [Night 2] Jova (farm briefly here) >> [Day 2] Holy Water (have yet to decide to omit this in favor of fall glitch)   -- I get about this far, and realize I am going to either fight Death with a Leather Whip, or go out of my way for a Morning Star...

One more option then.. Skip Death... There is no real need to fight him, as you can kill Dracula with just the Flame Whip (does just as much damage per 'hit' though is a slower). I figure I can get in five free hits before Drac starts moving, then only 11 more to win it (16 hits @ 15 damage each for his 240 health). And I can try to use a laurel (after getting them free in Laruba) in that battle, which basically makes it a no-brainer...

The real trick is getting there... so the modified path is now (and please note this is untested):
(continuing from above) >> Belasco >> Ferry (use Heart) >> Brahms == Drac's Eyeball >> Ferry >> Red Crystal >> Morning Star (note, Holy Water is not needed to get this) >> Deborah Cliff to Bodley == Drac's Nail >> Flame Whip >> Laruba == Drac's Ring >> Kill Carmilla for Holy Cross >> Castlevania and end.

This path is extremely difficult (in an already difficult game). However, there is a motto that fits speed running down to the letter: Who dares wins.

2012-08-14 03:52:23 pm

SGL Scrublord

Indeed, the RAF knows a thing or two about scoffing at difficult odds..

Again, the main issues for a dehydrated run will be hearts for the morning star, laurels (the first ones in Red Crystalville) and the last three stakes, dropping in Bodley (as you need holy water for the short cut). Brahm's Mansion is truly nightmarish with a leather whip, and traversing the land to get to the Morning Star is hellish with those thrice-damned slimes.

We shall see what comes of this.

Edit history:

theseawolf1: 2012-08-28 11:12:52 am

2012-08-28 11:11:55 am

SGL Scrublord

So on Sunday, using the current route got me about 3 minutes above the current record, and this included:

Some bad heart luck/grinding
Some bad floor glitch luck
An unwanted death or two
Shaky work on the hyper-two-headed monster screen
Getting hit by Dracula (does alot of damage, wastes 2 seconds)
Some menu checking that I should not do (might have to interact with the chat a bit less to count hearts, sorry!)

I need to watch it over and see where I can tighten up execution. I was ahead until the morning star, but I need to make a Wsplit for the current run to be sure. Busy busy busy!