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mikwuyma: 2012-12-06 08:47:54 am
My feelings on The Demon Rush
I guess timing for a segment would end whenever you hit the trigger point for the password (collecting an item, beating a boss, etc.)

Mike89: The runner could provide a list of passwords for people to test.
To put in into the perspective of this particular game, to receive a password you must select PASSWORD from the Game Over screen. The password supplied is one of 16 (though many more are valid for the same item set, the game will only display one of the 16 XOR selections). You can tinker with the passwords yourself at The password I have in mind would have the following: Rib, Heart, Dagger, HgDagger, Water, Flame, Stake, Day 2, Level 2, Chain Whip and Blue Crystal. If you enter this data in, you will get an "authentic" (i.e. actual game-provided) password. Now, if you change the XOR selections, you will note there are sixteen total "authentic" passwords that can be provided. The game will always give one of these.

Just so I am totally clear on this, am I required to show the achieved password (and by extension therefore required to get a Game Over), or can I forgo this knowing the game will give me one of sixteen passwords (that all do the same thing) and just hit reset when I meet the conditions that are contained in the password?

I wish this were as cut-and-dry as The Legend of Zelda (i.e. Up+A or Save+Quit), but I do not believe there is a shortcut to display a password in this game.

Also, I am thinking of doing a run at the FDS version of this game. Obviously I don't have the actual console, so a submission isn't going to happen; but I am curious as to how the FDS handles a Game Over and reset since it uses save files (a la The Legend of Zelda) rather than passwords. (This also makes me curious to know if Up+A is in the FDS version, and if so, maybe it was cross-implemented?)
Edit history:
theseawolf1: 2012-12-07 10:36:56 am
theseawolf1: 2012-12-07 09:52:29 am
SGL Scrublord
Ooo, this thread got busy.

Pulled a 40:17 last night, it smashes my personal best by over a minute and domniates the previous run. I know, just KNOW 20 seconds of improvement is possible somewhere, and I'm looking over the video soon to plan out what I missed. Both town drops (to the chain whip and to the town just before Castlevania) didn't work, so I simply ran down the stairs (each incidence costs about 5.7 seconds vs a 1st attempt whipdrop taking 4.4 seconds to reach the same spot, lesson learned, one attempt then climb on down) and the game over I did after the morning star costs about 4.4 seconds, but leveling up again (which would have happened again) would take about 10 seconds between the intro animation and the health refill, so it was the right call.

Gotta break the 40!

Edit: Links to teh urn

Link to teh vase
Very nice. Route seems solid.

So much so that I tried to incorporate the death abuse back into the 100% route... and while I can achieve what I want I don't think the numbers will add up. Basically I still need 250 Hearts between Veros and Aljiba, and that is hard to get when you are starting from 2 Hearts (after getting the Jova items). I will continue to look at this, but it seems like I am going to look at three routes for the first 25 minutes of the game...

This unfortunately means I won't have a full run for some time... but it is at least building up nicely...

Edit: Watched it again... You get an extra stake in Laruba for use in Bodley, which isn't bad. However, you pass by the stake guy in Brahms on your way out (see 22:20 into your PB vid). You can get the extra stake there (unless you need the extra 50 for the Morning Star). The wind spirit at Deborah Cliff warps you direct to Bodley, so you immediately get to use the stake and there is no change in the time after Deborah Cliff. So, this should shave off about 10 seconds or so.
SGL Scrublord
Yep, lost about 15 seconds in Dabi's Path alone. I rage at Grey Skeletons and Eyeballs. Some drop luck (both heart and whip) are required, but surpassing 40:17 should be doable.
Very nice run ^^

You could save another 5-8 easy seconds by using the Purple Block of Wonders to get out of the first castle - after a bit of practice, I got this trick 95%+ of the time without any problems. In the 5% case I messed up the positioning I lost ~1 second max... Although you drop from top down, so you may lose 3-4 more seconds.
@theseawolf1: if you want to adjust your WSplit, it is about 4.88 seconds from the moment you hit the Start button on the GAME START screen to when Simon can first move.
Quote from WunUnknownPlayer:
There is a lot of work to be done with that to really polish it [see ... I wouldn't even waste anyone's time in submitting what I have, but as a start it isn't as bad as it seems... I need to work on the middle and late stages of the game... and I would think I can take a good chunk of time off it (thinking in the realm of 10 minutes even).. I need to see if I can learn the falling through floors glitch before I can make any attempt at a suitable run for submission. There are places where it would greatly improve time.

So I finally decided to grit my teeth and complete a full run. Using an emulator (for now), my new route now clocks in 55:39, right around the 10 minutes I thought I could take off my vid. Not so surprisingly a good portion of that time is just a better drill of each screen as I come to it. More surprising is the death abuse borrowed from the any% which now reduces all double-back in my route and allows me to pick up all the hearts I need fairly consistently. I know I can reduce this even further, given this run had a game over before I got the Morning Star, requiring me to farm again.

If anyone wants to see it, I can convert to AVI and post.

EDIT: Please note it is still rough around the edges... especially as I get into the western 1/2 of the game. Still lots of work left to do, but I think the route is as solid as it can get. Suggestions still always welcome.
Here is a strange tidbit of data from this game...

I was watching someone stream this game and was shocked to see the Sacred Flame do no damage at all. I just couldn't believe it, so I set out to do some testing with some help with the hitbox viewer script. Turns out, the damage issued by Sacred Flame, Silver Knife, Diamond and Golden Knife are all based on your current whip, while Dagger and Holy Water are constant damage. Holy Water does 1 damage and Dagger does 2 damage. Golden Knife does damage equal to your current whip, while Sacred Flame's, Silver Knife's and Diamond's damages are the whip's damage shifted 1 bit right. This means that if you have the Leather Whip (damage 1, or 01h) then these three sub-weapons do nothing at all!

The damage values only changed when the whip was upgraded. Level has nothing to do with offensive damage at all (but plays a big part in defensive damage). This is kind of humorous when you think about the damage of the Dagger vs. the Leather Whip or even the Silver Knife/Diamond/Sacred Flame. In fact, you have to have the Chain Whip for these three sub-weapons to do as much damage as the Dagger.

Okay... diversion over... now back to more speedrun practice.
SGL Scrublord
Indeed, I tried to grab the gold knife and skip the Flame Whip, and got ambushed by things not dying. I'm surprised though that the Sacred Flame works like that too.
Quote from WunUnknownPlayer:
I wish this were as cut-and-dry as The Legend of Zelda (i.e. Up+A or Save+Quit), but I do not believe there is a shortcut to display a password in this game.

Can any of our TASers try to do a comparison of the LoZ ROM and the CV2 ROM to see if there is a "quick out"? The only reason I ask is that Up+A in LoZ has clearly been faster than without, and such it would also be advantageous in this game (and might actually be completely route altering). Much appreciated and thanks in advance.

I am having so much fun screwing up my runs... and what is strange is that I am really not kidding about that. Every time something goes wrong, it makes me see the game in a whole new way. Playing the game from about 2 minutes in to the Morning Star (about 35 minutes in) on just one life is extremely hard... any death (and therefore game over) forces me to farm hearts all over again... which is a reset for sure... but it also gives me opportunity to see where I can farm to get back into the game. After Morning Star, a game over is just another death really, so the loss of 5 seconds to a 50-minute run doesn't warrant a reset right away. Honestly I am shooting for no continue, as I supposed theseawolf1 is in the any%. Hopefully my schedule between work and home will allow me to practice more...
SGL Scrublord
I don't mind continuing after the morning star if I'm low on health and have few hearts. Gaining all my health again with a 4.4 second death/continue screen is faster than a 5-8 second level up if I would have no hearts anyhoo (and if you have been playing Manlyvania and not continuing after buying the Holy Water/White Crystal (and you damn well better be in any%) you WILL level sometime after the morning star unless you die).
I think the any% route TSW1 has developed is optimal for live play. I am again trying to incorporate what he is doing into the 100% run. My fear is that it will look so similar to the any% that there really won't be much to write home about (i.e. not worth submitting). I need to iron some things out yet, so the difference might be day/night management. In the any%, there is no need to get the Diamond or the Silk Bag, both of which take significant in-game time to get. So, to manage day/night better, I might actually have to backtrack at the Dead River. I am hoping that this in-game time management will make up for the lack of differentiation from the any% run. I am now modestly shooting for under 52 minutes, and want to push to sub-50.

Perhaps an unpolished vid of the WiP?
Edit history:
WunUnknownPlayer: 2013-03-13 06:33:22 pm
WunUnknownPlayer: 2013-01-16 01:57:35 am
Okay. I promised myself I would put this game down for a break when the 52 minute barrier was broken. I finally got a decent run and got it down to 52:03. It is still very raw in the back end, and I believe sub 50 is easily possible (stretch goal 47:30). This run is a 13-minute improvement from the vid I posted on YouTube almost 1 year ago (will edit and post vid when it is available). I believe the route I take here is most optimal for 100% item collection. Any feedback will be greatly appreciated, though possibly not implemented for a few months as I am going to take a break from this game to work on a challenge I was handed by another friend two or three years ago and never accomplished.

Edit: I took the link down. If you still want to see the vid, let me know and I can PM you the link. It remains unpublished on my YouTube Channel because the older run is fully annotated and I'm too lazy to annotate the better one (sorry.)
SGL Scrublord
Enjoy your respite, butnow that the marathon has passed, its time for me to whip aggressively, to leave no slime unlashed and to invest in all the stakes.
SGL Scrublord
Update, as its been awhile!

Last night got a low 41, The first drop in Death's Mansion did not want to cooperate, and I was sloppy in Dabi's Path and the endgame walk to Castlevania. Sadly, its at the point where one bad fall glitch will end the run. Had god luck on the initial grind, but got stymied at the chain whip. So much needs to fall in place for a good run, I'm going to watch the 39:58 video again a few times and see where there is a marked difference in my strats.

Also, might be doing a Simon's Boot Camp for fun and profit. Well, not my profit, but you know Tongue
TSW1: Can you link the 39:58 vid? I am assuming it won't help so much with the 100% route, but it would at least be worth a watch.
Edit history:
theseawolf1: 2013-03-06 08:04:08 am
SGL Scrublord
Hmm, I have an FLV file, but it was linked to me in my chat. I can't seem to find it again sadly. I'll try and PM you the file.

EDIT: Nevermind its too large, I think it was RaneofSoTN who knew about it. Hopefully he still has a link or I'll find a way to post this file online.
Edit history:
theseawolf1: 2013-04-03 05:18:56 pm
SGL Scrublord
Wow, been awhile hasn't it?

Life's been busy, and I'm trying to grind out attempts when I can. I'm giving it until June (wherin I will start working two jobs 70+ hours a week until September) to get a better time than I have now, but then I'm submitting my run with the caveat of "I'll definitely try to make it better" come the fall. Its at the point now where insane heart luck needs to be married to nailing every floor drop, and once a run is in the red after Death its unlikely I can save it. Damn you frame tricks!
I haven't played this game since I put it down. I have been busy with life and a new challenge series I have been doing the last three months. I want to get back into this game though... Just gotta find an hour somewhere...
Decided to tinker with my 52:03 vid and see where I can improve. The two spots that jumped out at me immediately were the two spots in the middle where I am farming hearts. One is done in Mansion 3 to get an extra stake so I don't have to travel to the robed man in Mansion 4. I can cut this out simply by not buying the second set of laurels. Instant 1m20s improvement.

The second spot is farming hearts from the black skeletons to buy the Morning Star. In my testing, I found it also has the added effect of a level up. So, if I farm there for the level up, then proceed to get the Silk Bag during the day, I might be able to get through that section without having to use a laurel at all. This would allow me to keep one, which is really all I need to get through Laruba Swamp (with a quick game over to reset my health). This should get another 40~50 seconds if I can keep the skill level up.

The rest is execution. Sub-50 for 100% is possible and where I want to set the bar. Sub-49 seems to be the limit of this particular route. Either way, 10 minutes behind the any% for 100% collection seems like an achievement, so I feel good about the work so far. When I can get more time, I will see if I can put together a full run. If I can get a sub-50 run and feel good about it, maybe I will find a way to connect my DVD recorder and my NES together for a submission...
So I got a sub-40 run in Any% (39:50) this was done on an NES and you can see the run here...

I get some bad luck with the the fall in the blue crystal town, missed the fall leaving the blue crystal town and missed the jump into Death's room so there is a lot of room for improvement. I'd say ~39:30 is possible. I got really good luck during the skeleton heart grind between town 1 and 2 which helps later in the game.

The real time saver in this is dying an extra time in the first town. You grind your 13 hearts, get the crystal and the holy water then die until you can continue. This gives you an extra life going forward which allows you to skip buying laurels when purchasing the Morning Star. Basically, you get to the big swamp before the 4th mansion with 2 lives in hand (you will most likely die in the third mansion prior to getting here), you walk through the smaller of the two swamps, die in the big swamp then use your left over life to walk all the way through the big swamp leaving you with 4 HP (Note: you need to be level 2 for this to work). Getting through the 4th mansion without getting hit isn't hard unless you get some bad luck with the moving blocks, but you'll again die on purpose in here after buying your second stake so you do not gain a level between mansion 4 and Dracula as filling up your life to full when your HP bar is that large takes a while.

Another thing I'm working on is using the Gold Dagger to make it easier to land these falls. One spot I can make the fall 100% repeatable is in Dracula's castle. At the last set of stairs leading down to Dracula's main room, if you stand on the left side on the two smaller sets of stairs and quickly throw 3 gold daggers to the left off screen there is A LOT of frames dropped. This gives you a HUGE window of opportunity to land the fall and I usually get it on my first try. I've also done this with with the sacred flame, but I think I've determined that the dagger has the same affect on frames lost. This is not something that I did in my PB of 39:50 so there is more potential time saved there.
SGL Scrublord
Always good to see progress. I need to find time to get back into this, all these new ideas are really impressive!
So more progress. Got a 39:32 today using a new found trick that eliminates a lot of the Heart mansion. I call it "Gettin the Garlic"


Basically you use the purple block trick to get to the Ring Mansion, leave via the left side of the screen, get put in  the wall in the Heart mansion, jump up to get parallel with the pikeman there and use holy water to smash out the wall and pickup a book talking about the garlic item. Looks like it only works if your'e parallel with the floor, but you essentially skip all the stair climbing and jumping to get to the room with Drac's Heart. I knew I'd get another record after I found it, so I played again, got the new record of 39:32 with some of the worst heart luck I've ever had in all the my time playing this game.


You can see the trick fully utilized in the run. It didn't save as much time as I expected, but I think if the whole run went better, it would have made more of a difference.
So I found this today. I've completely broken the game at this point :P.  The trick is to jump from the screen left of Dracula's Castle into the Castle then use the fall trick off the first ledge in there. Jumping into the castle causes the bottom of the screen to be closer to the floor then it normally would be and when you fall, you can jump off of it (like you would with the Death fall) and drift off to the left side of the screen. The results are....interesting...