Arcana (SNES)

2010-10-31 03:39:15 pm

sinister1

so pro u don't even know

I loved this game and would definitely watch a run of it. It would require some serious planning and good luck to pull off though.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2010-10-31 07:07:51 pm

ZenicReverie: 2010-10-31 07:07:34 pm

2010-10-31 06:58:58 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

There was a TAS, I'll see if I can find it again. I've thought of doing this game as well, but there are so many games like that.

Edit: They were actually youtube videos, but they were taken down apparently. I think it was a WIP, and I saw them about 2 years ago. In any case, the luck involved in those videos was just crazy. The first part was buying a couple amulets, and getting into nearly zero random battles up to the Golem, then manipulating the amulets.

I wish you luck in your pursuit of this. This is one of my favorite RPGs on the SNES.

Quadstriker

2010-10-31 11:45:57 pm

Okay, I've never played this game, so I decided to fire it up on my emulator arcade and see what it's like. I hit the title screen, the music is playing, and from the bedroom my fiance calls out, "Holy S@!# is that Arcana?!" Lulz!

Apparently it's one of her favorite games.

And did I mention my fiance is awesome?

Edit history:

thri11ki11: 2010-12-10 12:39:22 pm

2010-12-10 12:38:19 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

All right, I spent the last month or so testing the crap out of this on an emulator and figuring out the design, and then I ran a TAS. While slightly imperfect, the TAS came out at about 1 hour and 15 minutes, and I learned a LOT about this game.

-It turns out that the most work has to be done in the final chapter (big surprise) fighting Cloud Dragons for the best experience.
-There is a very effective experience farming location in Chapter 2 (the Forest of Doubt) fighting Trunkmen.
-There is a very effective experience farming location in Chapter 3 (the Polar Dungeon) fighting Trolls.
-The most important source of income is the ability Honey, which you can sell for 1500 GP a pop.
-The Cards and Call Amulets that you buy at the gypsy become ineffective after Chapter 3.
-Efrite is by far the best Spirit, as he learns Stomp All (which actually has a significant effect, I find) and Change Attribute to Fire (good against Cloud Dragons)
-The lowest level that you can kill Rimsala at is Level 25. (I've tested and the odds are impossible at level 24).

The strategy overall:

Chapter 1 I spend preparing for the fight with Zerel at the end of Chapter 2. You can rush to Zerel with relative ease without going out of your way, but she's impossible unless you have at least 3 Call Amulets and 3 element cards (and all 3 Call Amulets have to fire properly, obviously). This means that in the first dungeon, I have to go off the beaten path a bit for extra gold so that I don't have to revisit town twice in Chapter 2 to buy amulets.

Chapter 2 is gathering up a few Honeys for weapon and amulet purchasing in Chapter 3, and fighting Trunkmen for easy levels.

The rest of the game is spent prepping for the fight with Rimsala.

Chapter 3 is where I buy my first weapons (I go weaponless to that point) for Axs and Rooks, then rush to the Polar Dungeon where I fight Trolls while picking up Honey for cash for the endgame.

Chapter 4 is buying the best sword for Rooks that's available, then buying about 5 Tents to use while leveling in Bintel Castle in Chapter 5. You don't have to buy anything for Axs or Salah as they have very powerful weapons in Stavery Tower. Axs' Demon Axe absolutely DESTROYS Darah. Though there is an abundance of valuable treasure, I don't pick up anything because as long as I have Tents I have everything I need for Chapter 5.

Chapter 5 is getting Desiree for Darwin, then going into the final rooms in Bintel Castle before "A Tunnel" and grinding Cloud Dragons (800 EXP for a set of two, so 2-3 fights to gain a level). Then I pick up the Grand Shield, then the fight with Galneon, then getting the Grand Armor, and finally Rimsala's two forms. Rimsala's first form is reeeaallly easy; it's possible to kill her at level 25 by just mashing the button to attack. Her second form can only be beaten at Level 25 with an emulator.

Doing this for a straight run is going to require significantly different strategies. You can't avoid fights, so you have to prepare for them because there is no way you can run from them if you're under-leveled. This requires buying more cards early on, and probably more Tents and Sleeping Bags later. I may even need to get armor (which I didn't do in the TAS until the very end). The last blast through Bintel is going to require a lot of luck. It may be good to split that chapter into two segments: the grind and then running to the finish. Teefa's Flee spell will work wonders until she leaves the party on Floor 11, so the actual hardest part will be getting through Floor 12 of Stavery with Rooks alone without running into a fight that I can't run from (the enemies in Stavery Chapter 5 are MURDER). I'm thinking I'll need to be at least Level 30 to kill Rimsala without save states.

But I've pretty much got it planned out. Now all I have to do is grind out the run.

All right, I spent the last month or so testing the crap out of this on an emulator and figuring out the design, and then I ran a TAS. While slightly imperfect, the TAS came out at about 1 hour and 15 minutes, and I learned a LOT about this game.

-It turns out that the most work has to be done in the final chapter (big surprise) fighting Cloud Dragons for the best experience.
-There is a very effective experience farming location in Chapter 2 (the Forest of Doubt) fighting Trunkmen.
-There is a very effective experience farming location in Chapter 3 (the Polar Dungeon) fighting Trolls.
-The most important source of income is the ability Honey, which you can sell for 1500 GP a pop.
-The Cards and Call Amulets that you buy at the gypsy become ineffective after Chapter 3.
-Efrite is by far the best Spirit, as he learns Stomp All (which actually has a significant effect, I find) and Change Attribute to Fire (good against Cloud Dragons)
-The lowest level that you can kill Rimsala at is Level 25. (I've tested and the odds are impossible at level 24).

The strategy overall:

Chapter 1 I spend preparing for the fight with Zerel at the end of Chapter 2. You can rush to Zerel with relative ease without going out of your way, but she's impossible unless you have at least 3 Call Amulets and 3 element cards (and all 3 Call Amulets have to fire properly, obviously). This means that in the first dungeon, I have to go off the beaten path a bit for extra gold so that I don't have to revisit town twice in Chapter 2 to buy amulets.

Chapter 2 is gathering up a few Honeys for weapon and amulet purchasing in Chapter 3, and fighting Trunkmen for easy levels.

The rest of the game is spent prepping for the fight with Rimsala.

Chapter 3 is where I buy my first weapons (I go weaponless to that point) for Axs and Rooks, then rush to the Polar Dungeon where I fight Trolls while picking up Honey for cash for the endgame.

Chapter 4 is buying the best sword for Rooks that's available, then buying about 5 Tents to use while leveling in Bintel Castle in Chapter 5. You don't have to buy anything for Axs or Salah as they have very powerful weapons in Stavery Tower. Axs' Demon Axe absolutely DESTROYS Darah. Though there is an abundance of valuable treasure, I don't pick up anything because as long as I have Tents I have everything I need for Chapter 5.

Chapter 5 is getting Desiree for Darwin, then going into the final rooms in Bintel Castle before "A Tunnel" and grinding Cloud Dragons (800 EXP for a set of two, so 2-3 fights to gain a level). Then I pick up the Grand Shield, then the fight with Galneon, then getting the Grand Armor, and finally Rimsala's two forms. Rimsala's first form is reeeaallly easy; it's possible to kill her at level 25 by just mashing the button to attack. Her second form can only be beaten at Level 25 with an emulator.

Doing this for a straight run is going to require significantly different strategies. You can't avoid fights, so you have to prepare for them because there is no way you can run from them if you're under-leveled. This requires buying more cards early on, and probably more Tents and Sleeping Bags later. I may even need to get armor (which I didn't do in the TAS until the very end). The last blast through Bintel is going to require a lot of luck. It may be good to split that chapter into two segments: the grind and then running to the finish. Teefa's Flee spell will work wonders until she leaves the party on Floor 11, so the actual hardest part will be getting through Floor 12 of Stavery with Rooks alone without running into a fight that I can't run from (the enemies in Stavery Chapter 5 are MURDER). I'm thinking I'll need to be at least Level 30 to kill Rimsala without save states.

But I've pretty much got it planned out. Now all I have to do is grind out the run.

2010-12-10 05:51:00 pm

I want off the ride....

Cards are a lot more useful than you think. Granted chapter 3 is a bit early to call them in as useless. a set of 3 cards still does the 80 dam/all, which when combined with a good spirit for the dungeon (or even just Efrite) you can kill things quick enough that most fights shouldn't last too long anyway.

If you depend on calling amulets, then /gg. I find those things are random as heck and generally not worth the penny. Better off buying a 9stack of whatever card you want and use that in 3 3sets.

Marid is pretty helpful for her abilities. The earth and wind both kinda suck. But use their elemental shifts right (I recall one of the weapons has a water attack, so changing elements after you get that helps you out more than you can know).

I've thought about running this game but I only gave it significant thought in regards to handling it from each chapter separately (thanks to the in game chapter select codes). By the horrible money they give you, they still give you 10*previous chapter in level. So by this you auto hit level 40 for chapter 5 and its pretty damn safe no matter what you do.

But a run of this game normal, SS or NOT, would be one luck filled hell hole.

Cards are a lot more useful than you think. Granted chapter 3 is a bit early to call them in as useless. a set of 3 cards still does the 80 dam/all, which when combined with a good spirit for the dungeon (or even just Efrite) you can kill things quick enough that most fights shouldn't last too long anyway.

If you depend on calling amulets, then /gg. I find those things are random as heck and generally not worth the penny. Better off buying a 9stack of whatever card you want and use that in 3 3sets.

Marid is pretty helpful for her abilities. The earth and wind both kinda suck. But use their elemental shifts right (I recall one of the weapons has a water attack, so changing elements after you get that helps you out more than you can know).

I've thought about running this game but I only gave it significant thought in regards to handling it from each chapter separately (thanks to the in game chapter select codes). By the horrible money they give you, they still give you 10*previous chapter in level. So by this you auto hit level 40 for chapter 5 and its pretty damn safe no matter what you do.

But a run of this game normal, SS or NOT, would be one luck filled hell hole.

ZenicReverie

2010-12-11 11:12:46 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

I think he was commenting on the game as a TAS, which will be a lot different than running this without watching the RNG.

2010-12-12 07:47:11 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

Yeah, I was talking about the TAS that I did. Quite frankly Rane, you're right... the cards will be necessary throughout most of the game. The amulets are probably risky beyond Chapter 2, but I think I can get lucky and kill Zerel with them. I use Water x 3 against Cyclops and Efrite.

When you get to Chapter 4, however, the weapons that you can get generally do more damage. I know that the Dragon Blade puts the beat-down on Darah far more effectively than Earth cards, or even amulets. The animation for cards takes longer too, especially when you have a large group. It's all about luck, which as everyone is obviously aware of will be the most abundant commodity that I can hope for.

The only places that I plan on grinding for levels are in Chapter 2 Forest, Chapter 3 Polar, and Chapter 5 Castle.

Sylph isn't horribly useful. In Chapter 1, the cards take care of the bosses. In Chapter 2, Draven Pass and Crimson Valley, there are a lot of fire based creatures that beat the carp out of her (not to mention Cyclops and Efrite, who are fire as well). In the forest, the fights are mostly Water and Earth elements. She won't be very useful there, either, because she won't be at Level 7 to get Lightning 1 at that point.

Then you get Efrite. Chapter 3 Polar I plan on killing Trolls, and they have "Man" attribute (no elemental weaknesses or strengths). Quite unfortunate that the Morning Star isn't available until Chapter 4 because it deals more damage against Giants. What it will come to will be Axs with a Battle Hammer and Rooks with the Ice Blade. Efrite won't have Stomp All until Level 13. I'll probably get it here but I won't hang around long enough to use it much, because the best place to grind is Chapter 5.

Marid comes into play just before Sauza at the end of Chapter 3. Another shame because once you get her, none of the remaining bosses have Fire attributes except for Barah in Chapter 4, and he casts Smash 3 which absolutely destroys her. Besides, she doesn't get anything useful until Level 18 (HP Restore All). I suppose Accuracy Increase All isn't the worst thing in the world, but I prefer Stomp All to just about anything and swapping Efrite out to cast a spell that may not have any effect sort of wastes time. The animations for any "All" spell take forever.

And Dao... he gets Wall All and that's his only use. In fact, I only use that in the fight against Rimsala, though outside of the TAS I'll probably swap him in and use it against most of the bosses, because it DOES decrease the damage they do, a bit.

Then in Chapter 5 Efrite is at his best, because Change Attr. to Fire puts Rooks and Darwin in positions to kill Cloud Dragons in one or two hits. Teefa's Paralyze spell also works fairly frequently against them. That's the goal is to get there.

It turns out, and this surprised me, that the most important statistic in the game is Intelligence. It doesn't impact your spell power at all, what it DOES impact is your magic defense. That's why you have to be at such a high level in order to defeat Rimsala. Attribute 11 MURDERS you if your Intelligence is too low. Armor doesn't do anything to boost your magic defense, either. I'm actually considering picking up as much Intelligence Honey as possible in order to boost that stat.

But as you said, the cards will come in more handy than I gave them credit for, if for nothing else than the slew of random battles that I won't be able to run from that I can't manipulate out. However, I disagree with your assessment of Marid; in a normal game, she is a potent character, but in a speedrun I go with Efrite all the way.

Yeah, I was talking about the TAS that I did. Quite frankly Rane, you're right... the cards will be necessary throughout most of the game. The amulets are probably risky beyond Chapter 2, but I think I can get lucky and kill Zerel with them. I use Water x 3 against Cyclops and Efrite.

When you get to Chapter 4, however, the weapons that you can get generally do more damage. I know that the Dragon Blade puts the beat-down on Darah far more effectively than Earth cards, or even amulets. The animation for cards takes longer too, especially when you have a large group. It's all about luck, which as everyone is obviously aware of will be the most abundant commodity that I can hope for.

The only places that I plan on grinding for levels are in Chapter 2 Forest, Chapter 3 Polar, and Chapter 5 Castle.

Sylph isn't horribly useful. In Chapter 1, the cards take care of the bosses. In Chapter 2, Draven Pass and Crimson Valley, there are a lot of fire based creatures that beat the carp out of her (not to mention Cyclops and Efrite, who are fire as well). In the forest, the fights are mostly Water and Earth elements. She won't be very useful there, either, because she won't be at Level 7 to get Lightning 1 at that point.

Then you get Efrite. Chapter 3 Polar I plan on killing Trolls, and they have "Man" attribute (no elemental weaknesses or strengths).  Quite unfortunate that the Morning Star isn't available until Chapter 4 because it deals more damage against Giants. What it will come to will be Axs with a Battle Hammer and Rooks with the Ice Blade. Efrite won't have Stomp All until Level 13. I'll probably get it here but I won't hang around long enough to use it much, because the best place to grind is Chapter 5.

Marid comes into play just before Sauza at the end of Chapter 3. Another shame because once you get her, none of the remaining bosses have Fire attributes except for Barah in Chapter 4, and he casts Smash 3 which absolutely destroys her. Besides, she doesn't get anything useful until Level 18 (HP Restore All). I suppose Accuracy Increase All isn't the worst thing in the world, but I prefer Stomp All to just about anything and swapping Efrite out to cast a spell that may not have any effect sort of wastes time. The animations for any "All" spell take forever.

And Dao... he gets Wall All and that's his only use. In fact, I only use that in the fight against Rimsala, though outside of the TAS I'll probably swap him in and use it against most of the bosses, because it DOES decrease the damage they do, a bit.

Then in Chapter 5 Efrite is at his best, because Change Attr. to Fire puts Rooks and Darwin in positions to kill Cloud Dragons in one or two hits. Teefa's Paralyze spell also works fairly frequently against them. That's the goal is to get there.

It turns out, and this surprised me, that the most important statistic in the game is Intelligence. It doesn't impact your spell power at all, what it DOES impact is your magic defense. That's why you have to be at such a high level in order to defeat Rimsala. Attribute 11 MURDERS you if your Intelligence is too low. Armor doesn't do anything to boost your magic defense, either. I'm actually considering picking up as much Intelligence Honey as possible in order to boost that stat.

But as you said, the cards will come in more handy than I gave them credit for, if for nothing else than the slew of random battles that I won't be able to run from that I can't manipulate out. However, I disagree with your assessment of Marid; in a normal game, she is a potent character, but in a speedrun I go with Efrite all the way.

2010-12-13 06:59:16 am

I want off the ride....

What i mean about Marid is... The efrite being out all the time will take a horrible horrible beating. having marid be able to sub out and run healz to keep you up while abusing Cards to finish out or even spank out a few of the those levels.

Accuracy up all is a one use thing, and is only useful a few times. That 60 hp/all makes her a potent keeper.....
Efrite is good for damage but unless you somehow have infinite mana or infinite HP.. i dont see how you wouldn't want to swap out efrite and marid every so often so they can function.

2010-12-13 09:45:19 am

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

I agree with you on the HP Restore All being valuable, but she doesn't get that until late in the game (Level 18). It will be all right to swap in mid combat for a quick heal once Efrite's gotten his buffs out, but Teefa should be in the party then, and with her Heal All 2 and Tents, healing shouldn't be too much of a problem while grinding Cloud Dragons.

But yes, inevitably I'll have to swap Efrite out to keep him healthy, but anyone can be a meat shield in that case.

2010-12-13 10:22:18 am

I want off the ride....

Using teefa for a heal bot seems kinda a waste since she has good nukes (the good attributes), using Marid makes the most sense for long strings of off tank. Dao takes damage like a hoe, and pretty much anything dealing with Slyph is a waste.

If 18 is that late for you (you said 25 was barely possible in a TAS), and based on how craptastic the levels are... wouldn't this still be a long time til your on a good stable level for the FB? I mean 30 would probably be a solid realistic goal for the FB. i have an arcana save file (emulated) around level 26 and my chances on the fb are craptastic in RL settings.

I'm merely talking in a real-time stand point. I never found the game too forgiving with money and to be honest the STR and INT honeys are important, and so is AGI. But since you can buy honeys in the later chapters, it kinda seems like a waste to tell them off and then get them unless you are dumping into one stat.

Just wanting to 1. be the devil's advocate
2. keep this discussion alive
3. make sure this game gets the shit kicked out of it.

Using teefa for a heal bot seems kinda a waste since she has good nukes (the good attributes), using Marid makes the most sense for long strings of off tank. Dao takes damage like a hoe, and pretty much anything dealing with Slyph is a waste.

If 18 is that late for you (you said 25 was barely possible in a TAS), and based on how craptastic the levels are... wouldn't this still be a long time til your on a good stable level for the FB? I mean 30 would probably be a solid realistic goal for the FB. i have an arcana save file (emulated) around level 26 and my chances on the fb are craptastic in RL settings.

I'm merely talking in a real-time stand point. I never found the game too forgiving with money and to be honest the STR and INT honeys are important, and so is AGI. But since you can buy honeys in the later chapters, it kinda seems like a waste to tell them off and then get them unless you are dumping into one stat.

Just wanting to 1. be the devil's advocate
2. keep this discussion alive
3. make sure this game gets the shit kicked out of it.

2010-12-13 05:36:34 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

Rane, lol on your list, I really appreciate it!

From now on, I'm keeping the focus on the real-time run, not the TAS, unless otherwise mentioned.

I agree with your assessment of level. I did plan on being at least at 30 before attempting Rimsala. That being said, the problem with Teefa is that she doesn't get her bash, Attributes 9, 10 and 11, until levels 30, 32 and 35 respectively. So that's a bust. This leaves her with Attributes 1, 2, and 5, (levels 7, 10 and 13) which are "attribute crap." In a speed run, offensively... Teefa just sucks.

Aside from that, Teefa has little use for quite some time. She's got Heal 1 (at Level 2), which is meh... but does in a pinch. Flee (at Level 5) will come in very handy on the rush to the endgame, and perhaps even when grinding to get away from those undesirable fights. Then she gets Heal All 2 at Level 16 and Heal 2 at Level 23, and that seals her fate as the party band-aid. The only other two spells she gets are Paralyze (Level 4), which comes in handy on the Cloud Dragons (why she couldn't get Paralyze All instead is beyond me), and Attack Impair All (Level 27) which is obviously too far out to be very useful... I could use it to grind out the final 3 levels to get 30, but... I'm pretty sure the party will be better served getting their heal on.

Marid, as I said... she's got Heal All 1. So she'll be in the combats occasionally if I need to. But Efrite's got HP Restore, and while that's not nearly as effective, if he's already served his purpose as buff man, he CAN if needed keep someone from getting splattered. It's unfortunate that you can't use the spirits' heal spells outside of combat. It would make Marid far more suitable for use in a speedrun (at least between fights).

As far as cash goes, it's important to have the cards first and foremost for Chapter 2, and I haven't really tried it, but taking on Zerel without getting lucky with Amulets will require significantly more level grinding because you'd have to survive the fight for over twice as long (we're talking about 3 amulets and 1 cardx3 vs. like... 8 or 9 cardx3s). Since I won't have armor, or even a weapon, at that point, it's important to wipe the floor with the bitch before she attacks Rooks more than two, maybe three times. Cash for Chapter 3... well, that's where I buy the first weapons. Without selling some of the honey, I can't afford it. I could run around in the Crimson Valley and pick up ALL of the honey there and sell it, but that will be tough. The resources you get from bolting through Chapter 1 are nowhere near good enough to buy you weapons AND amulets/cards. And if you'd think to go all out with cards, well... there's only enough room for 72 of them. That may seem like plenty, but when you boil it down, that's 24 cardx3s, and you have to save 3-4 of those for Efrite and 2-3 of them for Cyclops, meaning you've really only got enough for 17-19 fights. And you can hit that easily just on the way through the Forest of Doubt.

I gather honey in Chapter 3 to sell so that I can afford Tents and the Dragon Blade. The DB is the last sword I use for Rooks before getting the good ones in the final chapter, and it does better damage than cards and amulets, so it's sort of necessary. The Tents... I suppose I could wait on those until Chapter 5 and use some of the honey to improve stats instead.

Gathering in Chapter 4 is pointless unless I plan on buying honey, because everything I need is right in the dungeons.

So I'll probably end up going the sell honey route, at least until I find that I'm getting "too stuck," in which case I'll try the use honey route. I did a lot of testing, and STR Honey really doesn't do too much. If you add it all up, there's a negligible result. It also depends on the weapon you're using. For example, your Attack Power with the Dagger at Strength 1 is 10... at Strength 255 it's 17. Ice Blade ranges from 67 to 105. One of the last swords, the Spirit Sword, ranges from 174-232. So you can see that the weapon has far more impact on the attack power than the strength does. If I were to get, say, 6 Strength Honeys, for a total of 18 points of extra strength, it would boost my attack power from.... say 196 to 200. Unhappy stuff. At least the Intelligence Honeys seem to make some significant difference...

Rane, lol on your list, I really appreciate it!

From now on, I'm keeping the focus on the real-time run, not the TAS, unless otherwise mentioned.

I agree with your assessment of level. I did plan on being at least at 30 before attempting Rimsala. That being said, the problem with Teefa is that she doesn't get her bash, Attributes 9, 10 and 11, until levels 30, 32 and 35 respectively. So that's a bust. This leaves her with Attributes 1, 2, and 5, (levels 7, 10 and 13) which are "attribute crap." In a speed run, offensively... Teefa just sucks.

Aside from that, Teefa has little use for quite some time. She's got Heal 1 (at Level 2), which is meh... but does in a pinch. Flee (at Level 5) will come in very handy on the rush to the endgame, and perhaps even when grinding to get away from those undesirable fights. Then she gets Heal All 2 at Level 16 and Heal 2 at Level 23, and that seals her fate as the party band-aid. The only other two spells she gets are Paralyze (Level 4), which comes in handy on the Cloud Dragons (why she couldn't get Paralyze All instead is beyond me), and Attack Impair All (Level 27) which is obviously too far out to be very useful... I could use it to grind out the final 3 levels to get 30, but... I'm pretty sure the party will be better served getting their heal on.

Marid, as I said... she's got Heal All 1. So she'll be in the combats occasionally if I need to. But Efrite's got HP Restore, and while that's not nearly as effective, if he's already served his purpose as buff man, he CAN if needed keep someone from getting splattered. It's unfortunate that you can't use the spirits' heal spells outside of combat. It would make Marid far more suitable for use in a speedrun (at least between fights).

As far as cash goes, it's important to have the cards first and foremost for Chapter 2, and I haven't really tried it, but taking on Zerel without getting lucky with Amulets will require significantly more level grinding because you'd have to survive the fight for over twice as long (we're talking about 3 amulets and 1 cardx3 vs. like... 8 or 9 cardx3s). Since I won't have armor, or even a weapon, at that point, it's important to wipe the floor with the bitch before she attacks Rooks more than two, maybe three times. Cash for Chapter 3... well, that's where I buy the first weapons. Without selling some of the honey, I can't afford it. I could run around in the Crimson Valley and pick up ALL of the honey there and sell it, but that will be tough. The resources you get from bolting through Chapter 1 are nowhere near good enough to buy you weapons AND amulets/cards. And if you'd think to go all out with cards, well... there's only enough room for 72 of them. That may seem like plenty, but when you boil it down, that's 24 cardx3s, and you have to save 3-4 of those for Efrite and 2-3 of them for Cyclops, meaning you've really only got enough for 17-19 fights. And you can hit that easily just on the way through the Forest of Doubt.

I gather honey in Chapter 3 to sell so that I can afford Tents and the Dragon Blade. The DB is the last sword I use for Rooks before getting the good ones in the final chapter, and it does better damage than cards and amulets, so it's sort of necessary. The Tents... I suppose I could wait on those until Chapter 5 and use some of the honey to improve stats instead.

Gathering in Chapter 4 is pointless unless I plan on buying honey, because everything I need is right in the dungeons.

So I'll probably end up going the sell honey route, at least until I find that I'm getting "too stuck," in which case I'll try the use honey route. I did a lot of testing, and STR Honey really doesn't do too much. If you add it all up, there's a negligible result. It also depends on the weapon you're using. For example, your Attack Power with the Dagger at Strength 1 is 10... at Strength 255 it's 17. Ice Blade ranges from 67 to 105. One of the last swords, the Spirit Sword, ranges from 174-232. So you can see that the weapon has far more impact on the attack power than the strength does. If I were to get, say, 6 Strength Honeys, for a total of 18 points of extra strength, it would boost my attack power from.... say 196 to 200. Unhappy stuff. At least the Intelligence Honeys seem to make some significant difference...

2010-12-13 05:58:49 pm

I want off the ride....

As I said the reason I mainly wanted to do this in the chapter fashion because at the end of the day, each chapter is self contained and can be done over and over. (Mike said its cool to do this for Arcana...) ; This basically gives you the levels but is a far different beast from this planning as each chapter gives you 10 levels. so
Chapter 1 - new game
Chapter 2 - best weapons from last area, level 10 + a bit of cash
Chapter 3 - best weapons from last area, level 20 + a bit of cash
Chapter 4 - best weapons from last area, level 25*(30) + a bit of cash
Chapter 5 - best weapons from last area, level 30*(40) + a bit of cash
*: I wanted to state it cause ic an't remember but it should be 10 levels per area...

This takes any power the honeys have out except for int. Didn't realize str was such a shit honey. AGI should still be gotten because of TURN order and the ability to run better.

But of course you are using the gamefaqs maps? It might be optimal to hit one of the stashes in the Ice dungeon (one has a tent + some honeys) which could be godly helpful.

As I said the reason I mainly wanted to do this in the chapter fashion because at the end of the day, each chapter is self contained and can be done over and over. (Mike said its cool to do this for Arcana...) ; This basically gives you the levels but is a far different beast from this planning as each chapter gives you 10 levels. so
Chapter 1 - new game
Chapter 2 - best weapons from last area, level 10 + a bit of cash
Chapter 3 - best weapons from last area, level 20 + a bit of cash
Chapter 4  - best weapons from last area, level 25*(30) + a bit of cash
Chapter 5 - best weapons from last area, level 30*(40) + a bit of cash
*: I wanted to state it cause ic an't remember but it should be 10 levels per area...

This takes any power the honeys have out except for int. Didn't realize str was such a shit honey. AGI should still be gotten because of TURN order and the ability to run better.

But of course you are using the gamefaqs maps? It might be optimal to hit one of the stashes in the Ice dungeon (one has a tent + some honeys) which could be godly helpful.

Edit history:

thri11ki11: 2010-12-13 08:08:58 pm

thri11ki11: 2010-12-13 07:45:13 pm

2010-12-13 07:42:51 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

Yeah, it goes like this...

Chapter 2: Level 10 (Salah @ Level 7), 1000 GP, 1 of each Card and 1 Amulet, 2 Return Rings, 4 Sleeping Bags, Broad Sword, Whip, Ring Mail, Small Shield, Hard Leather, and a Talisman (they even have the courtesy to heal Sylph for you - a 100 GP bonus!)
Chapter 3: Level 20, 2000 GP, 2 of each Card and 2 Amulets, 2 Return Rings, 6 Sleeping Bags, Broad Sword x 2, Mace, Chain Mail x 2, Large Shield x 2, Breast Mail, and a Rune Gauntlet
Chapter 4: Level 30, 4000 GP, 3 of each Card and 4 Amulets, 2 Return Rings, 4 Sleeping Bags, 2 Tents, Scimitar, Battle Hammer, Plate Mail x 2, Iron Shield x 2
Chapter 5: Level 40 (Darwin @ Level 43), 8000 GP, 4 of each Card and 4 Amulets, 2 Return Rings, 6 Tents, Dragon Blade x 2, Mithril Mail, Mithril Plate, Dragon Shield, Mithril Gauntlet, and a bunch of armor that no one can equip that you can sell for 16,250 GP.

I was planning on doing this au naturale (without the codes) but I may do an IL run as well... it will be a breath of fresh air after grinding out the run as planned!

As far as maps are concerned, I mapped out every level myself (I did use the gamefaqs maps for awhile, but I went through the game so many times I figured I would double check in case there were discrepancies). I do hit one of the stashes in the Polar Dungeon, the one with eight honeys and a Return Ring, because that's where I grind out my Troll fights.

Running... it's too risky. I think I need to be prepared for every battle I hit because, as you know, if you run and are unsuccessful, everyone gets a free whack at you, which can be a run killer in this game. I didn't quite work out the formulas for fleeing, but when doing a low level run, your ability to flee is negligible, even when you use a few Agility Honeys.

I ordered this game on ebay... I'm supposed to get it next week. When I do get it, I'll keep you posted on my run and how it progresses... to keep this topic ALIVE!!!

EDIT: Just to give you a little perspective, I loaded up Chapter 2 using the cheat code and played through it. All I did was equip Rooks and Salah with the available equipment and bashed through the chapter. I didn't have ANY problems with ANYTHING. I used 1 Sleeping Bag after Cyclops and 2 Sleeping Bags before Efrite. I got lucky with the 1 Call Amulet on Zerel and just spammed the Attack button through the rest of the fight. The time was approximately 16 minutes to do the chapter. In my TAS run, it took me 12:40 (this included a bunch of fights for leveling purposes, but I had no equipment). I can't believe how easy it is when you are properly equipped and leveled. It's going to be insane to run this without the cheat code, but I have faith in myself!

Yeah, it goes like this...

Chapter 2: Level 10 (Salah @ Level 7), 1000 GP, 1 of each Card and 1 Amulet, 2 Return Rings, 4 Sleeping Bags, Broad Sword, Whip, Ring Mail, Small Shield, Hard Leather, and a Talisman (they even have the courtesy to heal Sylph for you - a 100 GP bonus!)
Chapter 3: Level 20, 2000 GP, 2 of each Card and 2 Amulets, 2 Return Rings, 6 Sleeping Bags, Broad Sword x 2, Mace, Chain Mail x 2, Large Shield x 2, Breast Mail, and a Rune Gauntlet
Chapter 4: Level 30, 4000 GP, 3 of each Card and 4 Amulets, 2 Return Rings, 4 Sleeping Bags, 2 Tents, Scimitar, Battle Hammer, Plate Mail x 2, Iron Shield x 2
Chapter 5: Level 40 (Darwin @ Level 43), 8000 GP, 4 of each Card and 4 Amulets, 2 Return Rings, 6 Tents, Dragon Blade x 2, Mithril Mail, Mithril Plate, Dragon Shield, Mithril Gauntlet, and a bunch of armor that no one can equip that you can sell for 16,250 GP.

I was planning on doing this au naturale (without the codes) but I may do an IL run as well... it will be a breath of fresh air after grinding out the run as planned!

As far as maps are concerned, I mapped out every level myself (I did use the gamefaqs maps for awhile, but I went through the game so many times I figured I would double check in case there were discrepancies). I do hit one of the stashes in the Polar Dungeon, the one with eight honeys and a Return Ring, because that's where I grind out my Troll fights.

Running... it's too risky. I think I need to be prepared for every battle I hit because, as you know, if you run and are unsuccessful, everyone gets a free whack at you, which can be a run killer in this game. I didn't quite work out the formulas for fleeing, but when doing a low level run, your ability to flee is negligible, even when you use a few Agility Honeys.

I ordered this game on ebay... I'm supposed to get it next week. When I do get it, I'll keep you posted on my run and how it progresses... to keep this topic ALIVE!!!

EDIT: Just to give you a little perspective, I loaded up Chapter 2 using the cheat code and played through it. All I did was equip Rooks and Salah with the available equipment and bashed through the chapter. I didn't have ANY problems with ANYTHING. I used 1 Sleeping Bag after Cyclops and 2 Sleeping Bags before Efrite. I got lucky with the 1 Call Amulet on Zerel and just spammed the Attack button through the rest of the fight. The time was approximately 16 minutes to do the chapter. In my TAS run, it took me 12:40 (this included a bunch of fights for leveling purposes, but I had no equipment). I can't believe how easy it is when you are properly equipped and leveled. It's going to be insane to run this without the cheat code, but I have faith in myself!

2010-12-15 01:02:50 pm

Good luck on this run thri11ki11. I used to love this game as a kid and would certainly appreciate a good run of it.

jprophet22 is working on a TAS for this game so keep your eye out, I am sure he will find some useful tricks/tactics, hell maybe even a glitch or two.

2010-12-15 02:41:48 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

Cool! Let jprophet22 know that I did a TAS. Is he on speeddemos? He can PM me if he wants to trade info.

2010-12-19 06:20:43 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

Ok... this is interesting...

Finally got my copy of Arcana in the mail yesterday, and I made a few attempts at Chapter 1. I decided to save after the intro because I was getting tired of waiting through it, so I bought what I needed for the chapter, went to the Inn, and did so.

When I restarted, I went to the dungeon. About eight steps in, I ran into a Slime. I thought, "hm, it's too early for a fight." Reset.

Start again. I run into a Slime in the same exact spot. Reset.

Again.

That's when it dawned on me... this sucker can be manipulated.

I knew that it was possible to manipulate the game when I made the TAS, but I was using frame-by-frame advance. Basically, in order to reproduce results, each attempt has to be frame-perfect. But when I go straight from the Inn to the dungeon, if I hold the right directions and buttons, I always appear in the dungeon on the same frame. And when I'm in a battle, the time I spend doesn't count toward the RNG (so I don't have to worry about selecting commands frame-perfectly). Plus, each action in combat will yield the exact same results on other play-throughs.

The trick comes when you gather treasure chests... because you have to hit the menu button as soon as you run into the square or the frame count will be off. If I mash, I can usually get inside a 5 frame window. This means for every chest, I DO have to be frame perfect if I want the best time.

I've continued playing on the emulator, testing different fight strategies and frame windows to see where they lead me. For example, on some fights, I find that I can retreat if I defend first, whereas others I have to fight because if I don't, another, more time consuming fight will pop up next. In some fights I have to "waste" a command to get another command to work; for example, attacking with Teefa wastes more time than defending with her, but if I don't attack, when Rooks' turn comes up the Water Cards will only work on 3 out of the 4 enemies, and so on. And sometimes I have to run into 3 fights in a five step window in order to get 40+ steps without a fight afterward. I've timed different routes and I'm trying to find the best one.

It's going to be a grinder, but at least I can affect the luck.

Ok... this is interesting...

Finally got my copy of Arcana in the mail yesterday, and I made a few attempts at Chapter 1. I decided to save after the intro because I was getting tired of waiting through it, so I bought what I needed for the chapter, went to the Inn, and did so.

When I restarted, I went to the dungeon. About eight steps in, I ran into a Slime. I thought, "hm, it's too early for a fight." Reset.

Start again. I run into a Slime in the same exact spot. Reset.

Again.

That's when it dawned on me... this sucker can be manipulated.

I knew that it was possible to manipulate the game when I made the TAS, but I was using frame-by-frame advance. Basically, in order to reproduce results, each attempt has to be frame-perfect. But when I go straight from the Inn to the dungeon, if I hold the right directions and buttons, I always appear in the dungeon on the same frame. And when I'm in a battle, the time I spend doesn't count toward the RNG (so I don't have to worry about selecting commands frame-perfectly). Plus, each action in combat will yield the exact same results on other play-throughs.

The trick comes when you gather treasure chests... because you have to hit the menu button as soon as you run into the square or the frame count will be off. If I mash, I can usually get inside a 5 frame window. This means for every chest, I DO have to be frame perfect if I want the best time.

I've continued playing on the emulator, testing different fight strategies and frame windows to see where they lead me. For example, on some fights, I find that I can retreat if I defend first, whereas others I have to fight because if I don't, another, more time consuming fight will pop up next. In some fights I have to "waste" a command to get another command to work; for example, attacking with Teefa wastes more time than defending with her, but if I don't attack, when Rooks' turn comes up the Water Cards will only work on 3 out of the 4 enemies, and so on. And sometimes I have to run into 3 fights in a five step window in order to get 40+ steps without a fight afterward. I've timed different routes and I'm trying to find the best one.

It's going to be a grinder, but at least I can affect the luck.

2010-12-20 08:09:14 am

good find thri11ki11, I bet you will find more as you go along.

jprophet22 is on SDA and TASvideos.org you can PM him either place, although I recommend TASvideos because he is much more active there.

scottimu5

Edit history:

scottimu5: 2010-12-29 12:17:46 am

scottimu5: 2010-12-28 03:10:46 pm

2010-12-28 03:09:17 pm

I just finished a legitimate speed run of this game. It took me a long hour and a half and I beat Rimsala at level 18. The speed run will be on youtube in a week or two. It takes a long time to upload HD. The secret is using intelligence honeys. I only had to grind for a few battles in order to get Rooks to level up properly as his experience doesn't roll over. My name is scottimus432 on youtube and you will see the first Arcana video post tonight.

2010-12-28 06:34:26 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

wow, that's amazing! Looking forward to it!

2010-12-29 06:56:29 am

sinister1

so pro u don't even know

Quote from scottimu5:

I just finished a legitimate speed run of this game. It took me a long hour and a half and I beat Rimsala at level 18. The speed run will be on youtube in a week or two. It takes a long time to upload HD. The secret is using intelligence honeys. I only had to grind for a few battles in order to get Rooks to level up properly as his experience doesn't roll over. My name is scottimus432 on youtube and you will see the first Arcana video post tonight.

Wow that sure came out of nowhere, I will certainly check this out.

Also do you plan on submitting this run or are you going to improve it, or neither?

scottimu5

Edit history:

scottimu5: 2011-01-02 07:28:27 pm

2011-01-02 07:24:43 pm

I want to submit it. I feel like I had a good strategy. I minimized weapons and armor purchases. I arranged my party members in an efficient manner, i.e. keeping Slyph at the front early on for one shot kills in Balnia and using my spirits as a punching bag later on. I feel like a killed the first three stages with minimal enemy encounters. Chapters 4 and 5 however could perhaps be improved. Arcana is strange in the sense that the encounters aren't really random and the battles are actually scripted. For example in the Balnia temple I believe that I face three slimes right at the start. Before I even take a turn I know exactly how the entire battle will play out EVEN HOW MUCH DAMAGE THAT IS DELIVERED IS THE SAME. Because of this I could improve on Chapters 4 and 5 but only with an emulator to practice the battles with resets. Other than that everything went great, I love the battle with Rimsala massively underleveled. It takes me about ten minutes, lol. This was my tribute to a great classic.

2011-01-03 06:33:26 pm

sinister1

so pro u don't even know

sweet!! gonna check it out on your youtube channel

2011-01-27 01:43:07 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

I worked on this pretty heavily up until the second week of the new year, and then I dropped it for a bit and went back to testing. Using some of the strategies that scottimu5 worked out along with the ones that I figured out, and heavy manipulation, I have figured out a way to get this run to sub 1:40.

I finished the first two segments, which really isn't much.

The first segment is just the intro and buying supplies for the second segment. I save so that I can manipulate the fights. This segment runs about 0:01:40.

The second segment is the rest of Chapter 1, and buying supplies for the third segment. This segment runs about 0:10:40.

The third segment is significantly more difficult because there are several places where the manipulation can be screwed up because of the many chests that must be obtained. The furthest I've made it non-emulator is to the series of chests in Crimson Valley. It will likely take me months to get an acceptable segment for this, but when it's all said and done, segment 3 should be around 0:14:00.

I'll keep posting as I progress, but don't expect frequent reports.

I worked on this pretty heavily up until the second week of the new year, and then I dropped it for a bit and went back to testing. Using some of the strategies that scottimu5 worked out along with the ones that I figured out, and heavy manipulation, I have figured out a way to get this run to sub 1:40.

I finished the first two segments, which really isn't much.

The first segment is just the intro and buying supplies for the second segment. I save so that I can manipulate the fights. This segment runs about 0:01:40.

The second segment is the rest of Chapter 1, and buying supplies for the third segment. This segment runs about 0:10:40.

The third segment is significantly more difficult because there are several places where the manipulation can be screwed up because of the many chests that must be obtained. The furthest I've made it non-emulator is to the series of chests in Crimson Valley. It will likely take me months to get an acceptable segment for this, but when it's all said and done, segment 3 should be around 0:14:00.

I'll keep posting as I progress, but don't expect frequent reports.