AGDQ 2015 Game Submissions Round 2 [locked]

2014-09-30 02:07:24 pm

Strange days, incredible days

Onin: The difference between a great seed and a bad one can be up to 30 or 40 minutes depending on a lot of different things. Not ludicrous at all. The run you linked actually uses less conservative strats in a few places because the runner can afford to lose everything and just reset, vs. in a marathon-type no-reset run where you'd be more cautious. It's very very good, definitely better execution and knowledge of running the game than the VOD I saw from the two runners who submitted (which admittedly was their second attempt). It also gets very good RNG, everything the player needs is right near them for the entire run.

About the category: It's not just "glitchless" that's different from what Bismuth did, it's also random seed. The world generates randomly and you have to quickly explore and improvise to get what you need. You might spawn in an ocean, in a world with no plains nearby, the nether fortress and stronghold locations could be close or far away, you might not have access to arrows or an easy food supply. You have to route it and play it simultaneously in every new run. That's what's interesting about the category for a marathon, IMO: how two players improvise, delegate tasks, manage resources, and get the items they need.

From the VOD I watched, these guys could research the game a little more and be smarter about how they delegate tasks and communicate with each other. It's definitely done more as a novelty stream and they're distracted by new subscribers and donations and all the bells and whistles you get with high-volume streamers that do it as their job. But it wasn't a let's play, just unoptimized. People have had worse runs than this just from bad luck in their games and no one had a fit about it. I think it would do well at AGDQ as long as they put in the work and refine it, which is easy enough to check up on before January.

Onin: The difference between a great seed and a bad one can be up to 30 or 40 minutes depending on a lot of different things. Not ludicrous at all. The run you linked actually uses less conservative strats in a few places because the runner can afford to lose everything and just reset, vs. in a marathon-type no-reset run where you'd be more cautious. It's very very good, definitely better execution and knowledge of running the game than the VOD I saw from the two runners who submitted (which admittedly was their second attempt). It also gets very good RNG, everything the player needs is right near them for the entire run.

About the category: It's not just "glitchless" that's different from what Bismuth did, it's also random seed. The world generates randomly and you have to quickly explore and improvise to get what you need. You might spawn in an ocean, in a world with no plains nearby, the nether fortress and stronghold locations could be close or far away, you might not have access to arrows or an easy food supply. You have to route it and play it simultaneously in every new run. That's what's interesting about the category for a marathon, IMO: how two players improvise, delegate tasks, manage resources, and get the items they need.

From the VOD I watched, these guys could research the game a little more and be smarter about how they delegate tasks and communicate with each other. It's definitely done more as a novelty stream and they're distracted by new subscribers and donations and all the bells and whistles you get with high-volume streamers that do it as their job. But it wasn't a let's play, just unoptimized. People have had worse runs than this just from bad luck in their games and no one had a fit about it. I think it would do well at AGDQ as long as they put in the work and refine it, which is easy enough to check up on before January.

Alko

2014-09-30 04:07:28 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Quote from tekkie:

i also highly doubt the two submitters decided to submit glitchless because, after months/years of experience and practice with the well-researched glitched category, they believe it to be a better speedrun

Just another non-argument. People pick up different categories for the challenge and/or the fun. They do it all the time, after minutes, weeks or years of experience in other categories. People also submit runs that they haven't truely mastered yet for marathons. It's also okay, and it's up to the marathon organisers to decide whether they will have enough time to learn and master or not.

AlbinoAlbatross

2014-09-30 05:45:51 pm

Why walk when you can go fast?

Quote from Aaron_Haynes:

Onin: The difference between a great seed and a bad one can be up to 30 or 40 minutes depending on a lot of different things. Not ludicrous at all.

In comparison this is how long it takes me to do my run. It seems pretty ludicrous.

zastbat

2014-09-30 06:07:40 pm

Lord Of The Beards

I have been wondering since the minecraft run is random seed is there a possibility of them just getting a world where they can't finish the run? Been wondering about this for awhile and ive also been wondering if there would be a way to know if they got a super terrible seed.

I watched the run and was not impressed or entertained it seemed like it was a ton of pointlessly wandering around but maybe that is just me. Also as for the whole let's players cant do speedruns thing I dont think that is the argument I think it is more like why is a let's play being put in the marathon? An example of a previous let's play would be pacman 2 from agdq 2014 it wasnt really about speed and was more about showing off the game which was boring to me personally. The vod I watched seems like a lets play to me with speed not really being there. But hey if you want to roll with it for donation bait w/e but there is no guarantee it will work and takes up time that could be used for better runs.

Onin

2014-09-30 06:38:19 pm

The two biggest RNG factors are the spawn locations of the stronghold and the nether fortress. The only situation I can think of where that random generation can make a run incompletable is if the stronghold is underneath a deep ocean and they can't reach it without drowning. Not even sure if that's actually possible.

But there's no way to know whether they're close or not upon seed creation. You can reset for a seed that starts in a biome with all the resources you need (like in the linked run, a plains biome with loads of animals). The only way to know where the Stronghold is, is throwing ender eyes into the air. I don't think there's any special way to locate the nether fortress. It being co-op should help there by giving more exploration space. All other required resources can always be found, however slow.

I have no name

Edit history:

I have no name: 2014-09-30 06:58:55 pm

2014-09-30 06:58:17 pm

Obscure games ftw

You can draw a really nasty End where you spawn on a small island off to the side of the main plateau and be knocked off by the Ender Dragon-though that's not unwinnable, just a very large setback. Same with the underwater stronghold: it's not floating in the water, so it could be reached by digging into the bottom. Alternatively, potion/enchantment use could be used. Again, huge setback, but not an unwinnable state.

People I've talked to who know about speedruns are fine with the idea of random seed-those who were skeptical thought it made sense after a bit. It's not a typical speedrun in that every step is planned out with minor variations, instead it's in the improvising. Neither type is inherently more legitimate than the other, or inherently better. The former category just takes up a larger percentage of games than the latter, and thus has more exposure and is the picture of the typical speedrun.

Those same people thought 2 hours sounded pretty decent for a one try run. Could be faster, but that's where the practice comes in.

You can draw a really nasty End where you spawn on a small island off to the side of the main plateau and be knocked off by the Ender Dragon-though that's not unwinnable, just a very large setback.  Same with the underwater stronghold: it's not floating in the water, so it could be reached by digging into the bottom.  Alternatively, potion/enchantment use could be used.  Again, huge setback, but not an unwinnable state.

People I've talked to who know about speedruns are fine with the idea of random seed-those who were skeptical thought it made sense after a bit.  It's not a typical speedrun in that every step is planned out with minor variations, instead it's in the improvising.  Neither type is inherently more legitimate than the other, or inherently better.  The former category just takes up a larger percentage of games than the latter, and thus has more exposure and is the picture of the typical speedrun.

Those same people thought 2 hours sounded pretty decent for a one try run.  Could be faster, but that's where the practice comes in.

BaronHaynes

2014-09-30 09:41:05 pm

Strange days, incredible days

Quote from Onin:

The two biggest RNG factors are the spawn locations of the stronghold and the nether fortress. The only situation I can think of where that random generation can make a run incompletable is if the stronghold is underneath a deep ocean and they can't reach it without drowning. Not even sure if that's actually possible.

It's not possible, oceans are never deep enough that you can't reach the bottom (and there is a trick you can do with a torch underwater that refills your air). I've heard of strongholds that spawn without end portals in them, but it's incredibly rare and there's three per world, so it's hard to imagine it being impossible to reach The End.

The biggest danger in the run is losing important gathered items and not being able to retrieve them, but taking some extra caution to make a base and store anything important should mitigate that. The player with the beds getting immediately knocked into the void upon entering The End is the nightmare scenario, but good scouting by player 2 should prevent that.

Quote from AlbinoAlbatross:

Quote from Aaron_Haynes:

Onin: The difference between a great seed and a bad one can be up to 30 or 40 minutes depending on a lot of different things. Not ludicrous at all.

In comparison this is how long it takes me to do my run. It seems pretty ludicrous.

It's a very random category, by definition you don't know what you're going to get until you explore. But I could see getting absolutely dicked over by the world generation, bad drops, and really unlucky deaths, and still finishing in under 90 minutes with smart play. But it's hard to know without a lot of practice runs to compare.

None of what I saw indicated people who are just dicking around and not trying to beat the game fast. At worst it looked like some of the sloppier co-op runs we've seen in past marathons that were still fun to watch. If the game/category/runner personality isn't entertaining to someone, not much is going to change that, so IMO it should be about play quality and improvement, not whether the run "seems like just pointless walking" to someone unfamiliar with the game.

[quote="Onin"]The two biggest RNG factors are the spawn locations of the stronghold and the nether fortress. The only situation I can think of where that random generation can make a run incompletable is if the stronghold is underneath a deep ocean and they can't reach it without drowning. Not even sure if that's actually possible.[/quote]It's not possible, oceans are never deep enough that you can't reach the bottom (and there is a trick you can do with a torch underwater that refills your air). I've heard of strongholds that spawn without end portals in them, but it's incredibly rare and there's three per world, so it's hard to imagine it being impossible to reach The End.

The biggest danger in the run is losing important gathered items and not being able to retrieve them, but taking some extra caution to make a base and store anything important should mitigate that. The player with the beds getting immediately knocked into the void upon entering The End is the nightmare scenario, but good scouting by player 2 should prevent that.

[quote="AlbinoAlbatross"][quote="Aaron_Haynes"]Onin: The difference between a great seed and a bad one can be up to 30 or 40 minutes depending on a lot of different things. Not ludicrous at all.  [/quote]

In comparison this is how long it takes me to do my run. It seems pretty ludicrous.[/quote]It's a very random category, by definition you don't know what you're going to get until you explore. But I could see getting absolutely dicked over by the world generation, bad drops, and really unlucky deaths, and still finishing in under 90 minutes with smart play. But it's hard to know without a lot of practice runs to compare.

None of what I saw indicated people who are just dicking around and not trying to beat the game fast. At worst it looked like some of the sloppier co-op runs we've seen in past marathons that were still fun to watch. If the game/category/runner personality isn't entertaining to someone, not much is going to change that, so IMO it should be about play quality and improvement, not whether the run "seems like just pointless walking" to someone unfamiliar with the game.

Naegleria

(user is banned)

2014-09-30 11:04:42 pm

So when they posted the 2 hour estimate for "worst case scenario" was the worst RNG taken into account?

StingerPA

2014-09-30 11:45:42 pm

Quote from Naegleria:

So when they posted the 2 hour estimate for "worst case scenario" was the worst RNG taken into account?

If you're going to get really technical, every run in every marathon should have an estimate of 100 hours to account for the worst things that can happen, such as getting 20 game overs in a row.

2 hours seems like a pretty decent worst case estimate for a run like this where several things can go wrong, like not finding the nether fortress very quickly, the nearest stronghold being 200 blocks away, or just bad RNG with ender pearl drops.

Naegleria

(user is banned)

2014-10-01 12:26:18 am

Not necessarily, the worst RNG in some games is irrelevant to the speedrun.

mikwuyma

Edit history:

mikwuyma: 2014-10-01 05:12:40 pm

2014-10-01 04:37:24 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Note: I still need to clear some space off the list since I'm adding setup times on top of these estimates. I am aware that some of the estimates are very lenient because they're still accounting for setup, but others aren't. I will make some cuts when scheduling time comes.

Thadarkman78: I am not 100% sure on MM10 being a race, but I'm generally more open to races this year for games that have been in marathons multiple times because there isn't as much to explain.

Vanquish: Yeah I'm aware this is fast-paced third-person shooter. My biggest concern about a casual run is how the enemies get steamrolled in a run. Let's be honest, they don't pose a great threat in a casual run. I'm not sure if the movement would outweigh the challenge the enemies put up, which is a concern since there are plenty of parts where you have to fight enemies in Vanquish.

Minecraft: I talked to Giant Waffle about the run, and he said his PB with Bacon Donut is a 1:23, they run on the latest version 1.8.1 so there is no dupe glitch, and his goal would be ultimately get a sub-hour time in an attempt. They're still working on it so I'll give them a chance.

Yes, the 2-hour estimate is to account for the worst RNG. Waffle says he hasn't had a time near 2-hours since he started.

Aaron_Haynes: In what way could they delegate their tasks better?

EDIT: I am going through the submissions page and writing comments on some of the accepted submissions to elaborate categories and the like.

Note: I still need to clear some space off the list since I'm adding setup times on top of these estimates. I am aware that some of the estimates are very lenient because they're still accounting for setup, but others aren't. I will make some cuts when scheduling time comes.

Thadarkman78: I am not 100% sure on MM10 being a race, but I'm generally more open to races this year for games that have been in marathons multiple times because there isn't as much to explain.

Vanquish: Yeah I'm aware this is fast-paced third-person shooter. My biggest concern about a casual run is how the enemies get steamrolled in a run. Let's be honest, they don't pose a great threat in a casual run. I'm not sure if the movement would outweigh the challenge the enemies put up, which is a concern since there are plenty of parts where you have to fight enemies in Vanquish.

Minecraft: I talked to Giant Waffle about the run, and he said his PB with Bacon Donut is a 1:23, they run on the latest version 1.8.1 so there is no dupe glitch, and his goal would be ultimately get a sub-hour time in an attempt. They're still working on it so I'll give them a chance.

Yes, the 2-hour estimate is to account for the worst RNG. Waffle says he hasn't had a time near 2-hours since he started.

Aaron_Haynes: In what way could they delegate their tasks better?

EDIT: I am going through the submissions page and writing comments on some of the accepted submissions to elaborate categories and the like.

Brossentia

2014-10-01 06:22:48 pm

No pain, no gain

Just gonna say this. People are worried that Minecraft will be unbeatable. They allowed Athena in a marathon before.

Athena.

A game that dicks with you in the worst of ways. A game where dying on one level makes it unbeatable.

I'm fine with Minecraft being in it. If the RNG is soooo bad that it's mercy-killable, it'll be a story worth telling. I don't think the risk of having an unbeatable game is really worth the worry, though; we've had it plenty of times before.

As for the two players, I don't know much about them. Basically, I say let them run. If they don't take it seriously, they'll lose any future chances to be in a marathon. It's pretty much the same with anyone.

xcd

Edit history:

xcd: 2014-10-02 12:42:45 am

xcd: 2014-10-02 12:39:47 am

2014-10-02 12:37:58 am

Cube Throw = OoB

Quote from mikwuyma:

Thadarkman78: I am not 100% sure on MM10 being a race, but I'm generally more open to races this year for games that have been in marathons multiple times because there isn't as much to explain.

I disagree with the last part. The GDQ's always bring in new viewers who have probably never seen a MM10 speedrun. However, I think races are fine if you have the runners do their thing while knowledgeable people on the couch commentate, and the game is not too confusing. Mega Man is fine because even a child could understand whats going on, but with games like Portal, one screen is enough. During the OoB race, I could barely concentrate on what was going on, and I run the game/know the game inside and out. PC races are kinda dumb in general because load times differ depending on the PC, meaning the better player could potentially lose for variables out of his control. I guess what I'm trying to get at is deciding whether a game should be raced is a case-by-case thing, and shouldn't blindly be decided to be a race just because a couple of top runners submitted the game.

[quote="mikwuyma"]
Thadarkman78: I am not 100% sure on MM10 being a race, but I'm generally more open to races this year for games that have been in marathons multiple times because there isn't as much to explain.
[/quote]
I disagree with the last part. The GDQ's always bring in new viewers who have probably never seen a MM10 speedrun. However, I think races are fine if you have the runners do their thing while knowledgeable people on the couch commentate, and the game is not too confusing.  Mega Man is fine because even a child could understand whats going on, but with games like Portal, one screen is enough. During the OoB race, I could barely concentrate on what was going on, and I run the game/know the game inside and out. PC races are kinda dumb in general because load times differ depending on the PC, meaning the better player could potentially lose for variables out of his control. I guess what I'm trying to get at is deciding whether a game should be raced is a case-by-case thing, and shouldn't blindly be decided to be a race just because a couple of top runners submitted the game.

Blood Thunder

2014-10-02 06:31:07 am

Quote from mikwuyma:

Vanquish: Yeah I'm aware this is fast-paced third-person shooter. My biggest concern about a casual run is how the enemies get steamrolled in a run. Let's be honest, they don't pose a great threat in a casual run. I'm not sure if the movement would outweigh the challenge the enemies put up, which is a concern since there are plenty of parts where you have to fight enemies in Vanquish.

To be fair, both my BioShock and BioShock 2 runs were on easy and almost every enemy is taken care of in a matter of seconds. While BioShock is less fighting and more about the tricks, BioShock 2 has a ton of fighting that has to occur to progress the game. I've not seen more than a couple people complain about the difficulty on either of these runs so I don't see why Vanquish is really any different.

Mecha Richter

2014-10-02 10:13:37 am

Haters gonna hate

Quote from Brossentia:

Just gonna say this. People are worried that Minecraft will be unbeatable. They allowed Athena in a marathon before.

And Plok. As a race. Any small mistake can cost minutes, and me and Countdown finished 3 seconds apart.

DrCoolGuy

2014-10-02 11:05:41 am

Just a guy

Quote from xcd:

PC races are kinda dumb in general because load times differ depending on the PC, meaning the better player could potentially lose for variables out of his control.

If it helps, the GDQ PCs are all the exact same build. So, any differences would really just be whats actually on the HDD, and that shouldn't really affect much.

Emptyeye

2014-10-02 04:15:21 pm

Talk to the Hand

Quote from Mecha Richter:

Quote from Brossentia:

Just gonna say this. People are worried that Minecraft will be unbeatable. They allowed Athena in a marathon before.

And Plok. As a race. Any small mistake can cost minutes, and me and Countdown finished 3 seconds apart.

Also, Ecco the Five-Minute-Autoscroller-With-No-Checkpoints-And-Oh-By-The-Way-You-Redo-The-Autoscroller-If-You-Die-On-The-Boss-After-It has been in multiple times (And had to use the debug code to beat it, also multiple times). In general, "marathon safety" is probably not the best argument against Minecraft Random Seed, given some of the stuff that's already been in GDQs past (I'd argue "it's not marathon safe" is a poor reason to reject a game in itself, honestly, given that.).

mikwuyma

2014-10-02 05:43:54 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Brossentia: To be fair, standards for choosing games were different for SGDQ 2012.

xcd: Okay you have a point, you are right that the Portal race was disorienting (I had a hard time following it), but generally for 2d platformers, there isn't as much to explain, especially ones with repeat showings. As DrCoolGuy said, the PCs are the same build now at GDQs, so load times shouldn't be a significant factor (famous last words).

Emptyeye: It is relative, but the game does at least need to be reliably beaten, and Ecco does fulfill that requirement, and so does Minecraft.

thadarkman78

2014-10-02 08:35:05 pm

Quote from mikwuyma:

Thadarkman78: I am not 100% sure on MM10 being a race, but I'm generally more open to races this year for games that have been in marathons multiple times because there isn't as much to explain.

Then I think if you are considering MM10 as a solo run and not a race it is a mistake to put in MM10 instead of MM6 or MM7. I can understand the angle of putting in MM10 Proto as a race because it's something kinda different and represents the more modern classic games, but as a solo run I don't think it would be as attractive as Ohon running MM6 or Ion running MM7 because their runs are much more optimized than MM10 Proto. I'm not saying Proto Man MM10 can't get to that level, it's just that no one has taken it to that level yet (and no one really seems keen to do it atm either), and I really feel like between Ohon and Ion (I'm not going to argue for either one as I think both of them would be amazing at their runs so you can pick whichever you'd like) you would get a better crowd reaction to those runs than with MM10. I can understand your hesitation for 6 because it was just featured at SGDQ and probably didn't get the best reaction to it I imagine, but honestly watching Ohon play 6, he makes it almost look like a completely different game with his play so I wouldn't be so quick to shoot it down personally speaking. As for 7, I don't really know the reasoning behind shooting it down other than it was at AGDQ13, but I know Ion has put a ton of work into the game and I really do think it's a fun watch, especially with such a nerve wracking final boss and potential quick kills, it has some crowd pleasing moments.

Even as a race it seems like Classic Mega is dominated by races if you include that in, so it would be nice to have a run of 6 or 7 as something that changes the pace a little bit. I totally understand why there are going to be more races and I have no problem with that, but at the same time when you have runners on Ohon or Ion's caliber, I really do think a solo run from them is going to captivate the audience more than another race because IMO Mega Man Races can be very hit or miss due to the nature of how we approach mega man games at this point.

[quote="mikwuyma"]
Thadarkman78: I am not 100% sure on MM10 being a race, but I'm generally more open to races this year for games that have been in marathons multiple times because there isn't as much to explain.
[/quote]

Then I think if you are considering MM10 as a solo run and not a race it is a mistake to put in MM10 instead of MM6 or MM7. I can understand the angle of putting in MM10 Proto as a race because it's something kinda different and represents the more modern classic games, but as a solo run I don't think it would be as attractive as Ohon running MM6 or Ion running MM7 because their runs are much more optimized than MM10 Proto. I'm not saying Proto Man MM10 can't get to that level, it's just that no one has taken it to that level yet (and no one really seems keen to do it atm either), and I really feel like between Ohon and Ion (I'm not going to argue for either one as I think both of them would be amazing at their runs so you can pick whichever you'd like) you would get a better crowd reaction to those runs than with MM10. I can understand your hesitation for 6 because it was just featured at SGDQ and probably didn't get the best reaction to it I imagine, but honestly watching Ohon play 6, he makes it almost look like a completely different game with his play so I wouldn't be so quick to shoot it down personally speaking. As for 7, I don't really know the reasoning behind shooting it down other than it was at AGDQ13, but I know Ion has put a ton of work into the game and I really do think it's a fun watch, especially with such a nerve wracking final boss and potential quick kills, it has some crowd pleasing moments.

Even as a race it seems like Classic Mega is dominated by races if you include that in, so it would be nice to have a run of 6 or 7 as something that changes the pace a little bit. I totally understand why there are going to be more races and I have no problem with that, but at the same time when you have runners on Ohon or Ion's caliber, I really do think a solo run from them is going to captivate the audience more than another race because IMO Mega Man Races can be very hit or miss due to the nature of how we approach mega man games at this point.

BroBuzz

2014-10-03 07:12:20 am

When do you want some video proof of MGS2? Can't record a full run but I can probably get the whole tanker section or at least some practice on video.

tonic

2014-10-03 11:02:49 am

I'm going to second darkman's comment. I think when we, as members of the mega man community, see the submission process including what runs are accepted and rejected, we take a look at who has been putting time into their submissions, who deserves any spots, etc., and assess the reasonableness of who gets in. Even if people don't come out and say it, it's important to the community to be reflected in large events like this properly, and game choices and runners are a part of that. I think some of us feel like Proto 10 was chosen over Mega 6 and 7.

In terms of a polished well practice run that would be guaranteed to be marathon ready, 6 or 7 are guaranteed runs. I understand the committee accounts for numerous factors, including donations, runner history, how well it fits within the whole marathon, etc. But like darkman, I'm confused why Proto 10 was chosen over Mega 7. Darkman is right that no one has taken Proto 10 very seriously, but in contrast, Ion has put tons of effort into 7 and it is representative in his gameplay ability. I understand a race could be exciting, but quite frankly I've never watched a race of Proto 10- it's not like a SM or a Mario 3 where you see races regularly, where those games would be great to watch a race. From a pure gameplay visual (the 'wow' factor for GDQ watchers), there's nothing Proto 10 offers that Mega 7 doesn't. In fact, Mega 7 has quick kills and zips that Mega 10 does not. Proto 10 is also very risky and deaths are both common and time consuming.

I think some of us are curious about the decision. We hope that these factors are things that have been fully considered by comittee members, but I understand the brevity of attention that most game series will get, considering the million things the committee has to consider. Like I said earlier, it is important for community members to be represented well at events like this. I guess I ended up knocking Proto 10, but really I'm more interested on why Mega 7 was denied.

I'm going to second darkman's comment. I think when we, as members of the mega man community, see the submission process including what runs are accepted and rejected, we take a look at who has been putting time into their submissions, who deserves any spots, etc., and assess the reasonableness of who gets in. Even if people don't come out and say it, it's important to the community to be reflected in large events like this properly, and game choices and runners are a part of that. I think some of us feel like Proto 10 was chosen over Mega 6 and 7.

In terms of a polished well practice run that would be guaranteed to be marathon ready, 6 or 7 are guaranteed runs. I understand the committee accounts for numerous factors, including donations, runner history, how well it fits within the whole marathon, etc. But like darkman, I'm confused why Proto 10 was chosen over Mega 7. Darkman is right that no one has taken Proto 10 very seriously, but in contrast, Ion has put tons of effort into 7 and it is representative in his gameplay ability. I understand a race could be exciting, but quite frankly I've never watched a race of Proto 10- it's not like a SM or a Mario 3 where you see races regularly, where those games would be great to watch a race. From a pure gameplay visual (the 'wow' factor for GDQ watchers), there's nothing Proto 10 offers that Mega 7 doesn't. In fact, Mega 7 has quick kills and zips that Mega 10 does not. Proto 10 is also very risky and deaths are both common and time consuming.

I think some of us are curious about the decision. We hope that these factors are things that have been fully considered by comittee members, but I understand the brevity of attention that most game series will get, considering the million things the committee has to consider. Like I said earlier, it is important for community members to be represented well at events like this. I guess I ended up knocking Proto 10, but really I'm more interested on why Mega 7 was denied.

Wallyaldo

2014-10-03 01:22:57 pm

Ok, I'd just like to address that people keep saying that no one takes Proto 10 "seriously" or something along those lines. While I know my time may not be the best at the moment, and in fact my current time is a rather poor representation of my skills, it's the only game I'm really running at the moment. I tend to be busy due to being in college, but I do stream it when I can, so saying no one takes the game seriously isn't exactly true. Another thing to address is that while I do agree that mm7 is definitely an interesting run and would be well prepared for, why is it that Proto 10 would be the one being criticized? Both mm1 and mm5 are in as potential races, but were both just in SGDQ. Even if they are races, these two bring nothing new to the GDQs that we haven't seen before, especially mm1, whereas Proto 10 has yet to see any kind of appearance. I'm not knocking the people running mm1 or mm5, but why try to eliminate a game that's actually bringing fresh gameplay from the Mega Man series when two games that were JUST ran at the previous marathon are sitting right above it in the schedule?

thadarkman78

Edit history:

thadarkman78: 2014-10-03 02:18:48 pm

2014-10-03 02:17:08 pm

Because I'd rather showcase something that has been optimized already rather than something that has the potential. It's kind of like the whole FFT argument again which I can't really argue against: FFT has only JUST became the hot new thing, so rather than just go flavor of the moment, let it take its time to mature and see where we're at with other things. There hasn't been any serious developments with Proto Man 10 yet, and no one is suggesting that it can't happen or won't happen, simply that it hasn't happened. 6 and 7 have happened, there is proof of someone that has taken it down to very impressive and optimized levels.

Look don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Proto 10 being in a GDQ, and this is not me trying to say that it's a bad run. I'm just not so sure I agree with it being picked over X is the argument I make. It's not which game/run is worse, but which game/run is more polished. MM5 got rejected in round 2 in AGDQ14 for the very same reason I'm arguing now: the game wasn't optimized yet to the level the other runners of classic games had taken them down to at the time. That doesn't mean they don't get a 2nd chance; look at what is happening with MM5 now. Ohon also deserves a special case scenario because not only is he IMO the greatest classic mega player ever, and even if you don't agree with that at the very least one of the greatest, you don't know when/if he's ever going to make it back to a GDQ. I get that you can argue the same for any other runner in a GDQ, but with japanese runners it's simply a given that it's a lot harder for them to make it back than the runners who reside in North America.

For the record I have no real issue with dropping 5 if it meant getting Ohon and Ion more screen time, but me dropping 5 doesn't change anything, but I do want to let you know Wally that I'm not trying to be biased here in favor of my game. If I was told If I could drop 5 and that would allow Ohon to run an extra game or Ion to run a game, I would be in favor of it.

Because I'd rather showcase something that has been optimized already rather than something that has the potential. It's kind of like the whole FFT argument again which I can't really argue against: FFT has only JUST became the hot new thing, so rather than just go flavor of the moment, let it take its time to mature and see where we're at with other things. There hasn't been any serious developments with Proto Man 10 yet, and no one is suggesting that it can't happen or won't happen, simply that it hasn't happened. 6 and 7 have happened, there is proof of someone that has taken it down to very impressive and optimized levels.

Look don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Proto 10 being in a GDQ, and this is not me trying to say that it's a bad run. I'm just not so sure I agree with it being picked over X is the argument I make. It's not which game/run is worse, but which game/run is more polished. MM5 got rejected in round 2 in AGDQ14 for the very same reason I'm arguing now: the game wasn't optimized yet to the level the other runners of classic games had taken them down to at the time. That doesn't mean they don't get a 2nd chance; look at what is happening with MM5 now. Ohon also deserves a special case scenario because not only is he IMO the greatest classic mega player ever, and even if you don't agree with that at the very least one of the greatest, you don't know when/if he's ever going to make it back to a GDQ. I get that you can argue the same for any other runner in a GDQ, but with japanese runners it's simply a given that it's a lot harder for them to make it back than the runners who reside in North America.

For the record I have no real issue with dropping 5 if it meant getting Ohon and Ion more screen time, but me dropping 5 doesn't change anything, but I do want to let you know Wally that I'm not trying to be biased here in favor of my game. If I was told If I could drop 5 and that would allow Ohon to run an extra game or Ion to run a game, I would be in favor of it.

GuyBB

Edit history:

GuyBB: 2014-10-03 08:19:27 pm

2014-10-03 04:59:39 pm

Quote from mikwuyma:

Vanquish: Yeah I'm aware this is fast-paced third-person shooter. My biggest concern about a casual run is how the enemies get steamrolled in a run. Let's be honest, they don't pose a great threat in a casual run. I'm not sure if the movement would outweigh the challenge the enemies put up, which is a concern since there are plenty of parts where you have to fight enemies in Vanquish.

I don't quite understand why this is a concern for a speedrun of campaign mode, as Blood Thunder started to say there are plenty of other speedruns that either use a lower difficulty or a NG+ setting to allow them to steamroll though the common enemy. what i assume is because the entertain value and challenge of those speedruns are not derived from the common enemy but rather the difficulty in the tricks, skips, and movement. To be fair getting 1 cycles on the argus robots in 1-3 and the others is already very challenging (saying this as i have done a couple runs of vanquish myself) even on casual, not to mention the other unique enemies that have creative strats. For casual difficulty it really does show the best of both worlds in terms of challenging "boss fights" and the insane movement that vanquish is known for.

also i just would like to say thank you for all of your hard work you do on the marathon, that taking the time to respond to the concerns of some people in the community really is amazing so again thank you and i hope i haven't caused too much trouble

[quote="mikwuyma"]Vanquish: Yeah I'm aware this is fast-paced third-person shooter. My biggest concern about a casual run is how the enemies get steamrolled in a run. Let's be honest, they don't pose a great threat in a casual run. I'm not sure if the movement would outweigh the challenge the enemies put up, which is a concern since there are plenty of parts where you have to fight enemies in Vanquish.[/quote]

I don't quite understand why this is a concern for a speedrun of campaign mode, as Blood Thunder started to say there are plenty of other speedruns that either use a lower difficulty or a NG+ setting to allow them to steamroll though the common enemy. what i assume is because the entertain value and challenge of those speedruns are not derived from the common enemy but rather the difficulty in the tricks, skips, and movement. To be fair getting 1 cycles on the argus robots in 1-3 and the others is already very challenging (saying this as i have done a couple runs of vanquish myself) even on casual, not to mention the other unique enemies that have creative strats. For casual difficulty it really does show the best of both worlds in terms of challenging "boss fights" and the insane movement that vanquish is known for.

also i just would like to say thank you for all of your hard work you do on the marathon, that taking the time to respond to the concerns of some people in the community really is amazing so again thank you and i hope i haven't caused too much trouble

peter afro

2014-10-04 09:28:37 am

Quote from mikwuyma:

Not sure on what the differences between normal and easy are (in Little Samson)

The two differences that I know of are 1)If you die as not-samson, you lose that character for the stage on normal, but not easy. and 2) Easy removes the final stage.