I agree with the sentiment that Vanquish deserves a true chance to shine at AGDQ. One of its most alluring aspects is its movement (enhanced by boost canceling and melee maneuvering), which is emphasized on casual difficulty. Halfcoordinated single-handedly speeding through Vanquish is an incredibly impressive watch, and I believe the AGDQ audience would feel the same.
SDA Forum
Worthless categories WR master
Okay, I know I've been posting a lot about Minecraft, mostly defending it against unfair opinions, but today I'd like to bring a point of concern.
I've been watching some of Bacon_donut and GiantWaffle's videos and it appears to me that even though the keyword "speedrun" is in their title, what they're doing is not a speedrun at all. Getting sub-2 hours with 2 players co-op is actually really bad. I'm sorry for calling out people saying let's players can't do an actual speedrun (which is a wrong generalization), but in this case it appears they might be right. Of course, if they practice and get good in time, all is well, but it would need to be practiced because right now... I can't say the run would be impressive, even to casual viewers.
I've been watching some of Bacon_donut and GiantWaffle's videos and it appears to me that even though the keyword "speedrun" is in their title, what they're doing is not a speedrun at all. Getting sub-2 hours with 2 players co-op is actually really bad. I'm sorry for calling out people saying let's players can't do an actual speedrun (which is a wrong generalization), but in this case it appears they might be right. Of course, if they practice and get good in time, all is well, but it would need to be practiced because right now... I can't say the run would be impressive, even to casual viewers.
Hey Bismuth, what do you think would be a good target goal for the category they are running? Also, do you think you can offer them constructive criticism? While you say you think their current performance is "bad," how bad do you think they are compared to what you feel an average run for this category would be from runners that have put in months of practice? It might also help to hear from either of them on how much they think they can improve.
Worthless categories WR master
I don't do random seed myself so it's a bit hard to say. For a single-player run, I think aiming for sub-1:45 every run should be a good goal. For a co-op run I don't have much of a clue but I would assume you could cut at least 15 minutes more? You can't save a lot of time by doing it co-op but I am pretty sure that unless disaster strikes in an absolutely awful way, it should be possible to get 1:10-1:20 runs. I believe their personal best is 1:25 at the moment, which is much slower than a lot of single-player random seed runners.
<(^_^)>
Quote from Bismuth:
Okay, I know I've been posting a lot about Minecraft, mostly defending it against unfair opinions, but today I'd like to bring a point of concern.
I've been watching some of Bacon_donut and GiantWaffle's videos and it appears to me that even though the keyword "speedrun" is in their title, what they're doing is not a speedrun at all. Getting sub-2 hours with 2 players co-op is actually really bad. I'm sorry for calling out people saying let's players can't do an actual speedrun (which is a wrong generalization), but in this case it appears they might be right. Of course, if they practice and get good in time, all is well, but it would need to be practiced because right now... I can't say the run would be impressive, even to casual viewers.
I've been watching some of Bacon_donut and GiantWaffle's videos and it appears to me that even though the keyword "speedrun" is in their title, what they're doing is not a speedrun at all. Getting sub-2 hours with 2 players co-op is actually really bad. I'm sorry for calling out people saying let's players can't do an actual speedrun (which is a wrong generalization), but in this case it appears they might be right. Of course, if they practice and get good in time, all is well, but it would need to be practiced because right now... I can't say the run would be impressive, even to casual viewers.
After reading your post, I also went and skimmed through a few vods and concur. As it is, you literally can't define that as speedruns. I've literally seen other LPers on youtube play more impressively than that. However, for the most part, if they show that they practice it seriously, show progress, and show that it can be an impressive speedwatch, then that's fine (there are a few other games+streamers that this applies to but they're more experienced speedrunners so...), but I think mike should at least be at least open to the option of cutting it if they don't reach that level anytime soon.
Worthless categories WR master
Quote from tekkie:
why glitchless, and is the most recent game version the fastest?
Because some of the Minecraft community that is unfamiliar with speedruns consider glitches to be cheating. In fact, a staggering amount of people cannot differentiate the two. The most recent version is not the fastest, but considering it is glitchless, I don't think it really matters, and the improvements with menuing in the latest versions actually help.
~
Quote from Bismuth:
Because some of the Minecraft community that is unfamiliar with speedruns consider glitches to be cheating. In fact, a staggering amount of people cannot differentiate the two. The most recent version is not the fastest, but considering it is glitchless, I don't think it really matters, and the improvements with menuing in the latest versions actually help.
if that's so and we're all to agree that these guys are speedrunners then "glitchless" and "slower version" shouldn't be acceptable, especially since it's going to increase the time allotted
A quick search on Youtube found me a glitchless random seed run of 45 minutes. Don't know whether it's even close to WR, but an estimate of more than twice that for a coop run is ludicrous.
e: That run is here, in case anyone (Mike) wants to compare it to the aforementioned coop VODs. It's worth noting that this is on Hardcore (i.e. you die you're dead, run over) so it's using more conservative strats.
e: That run is here, in case anyone (Mike) wants to compare it to the aforementioned coop VODs. It's worth noting that this is on Hardcore (i.e. you die you're dead, run over) so it's using more conservative strats.
Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^
Quote from tekkie:
Quote from Bismuth:
Because some of the Minecraft community that is unfamiliar with speedruns consider glitches to be cheating. In fact, a staggering amount of people cannot differentiate the two. The most recent version is not the fastest, but considering it is glitchless, I don't think it really matters, and the improvements with menuing in the latest versions actually help.
if that's so and we're all to agree that these guys are speedrunners then "glitchless" and "slower version" shouldn't be acceptable, especially since it's going to increase the time allotted
Glitchless is a very valid speedrunning category in many games, and slower than any% by definition. By that logic, low-% or 100 % wouldn't be acceptable either; nor would slower character choices.
"slower version" is a similar thing. Often a version is slower because of glitches not working/removed, hence usually creating a more interesting gameplay.
Other times, you have a Japanese version faster than the American one by several minutes solely because of faster text scrolling (Final Fantasies, anyone?). No reason to reject a run on an English version, especially since that means the audience can read.*
Finally, it could be a very old game for Amiga, Commodore and somethingelse; it's not too easy to acquire either of them nowadays (compare with how easy it is to get a PS2) so if you have the slower one dusting around in your attic, it's more than fine to use it.
Not saying that any of these points actually apply to Minecraft (I don't play it, so I wouldn't know), just pointing out that the logic is inherently flawed.
*
Poxnor actually requested games to be played on the English version wherever possible for C4L14 (and probably 13, iirc) for audience's sake; where there were language donation wars possible, one language (say, audio vs text) was supposed to stay English regardless.
Dapper as fuck.
Expanding on what Alko said, Earthbound is another great example. Just because you can glitch to the debug menu in approx 9-10 minutes and "beat" the game, does that make a 4 hour and change glitchless run less valid? I think beating that game in 4.XX hours in itself is impressive and love watching the likes of Andyperfect and Caleb run it. Maybe that's just me though.
If the offered Minecraft run was a glitchless random seed co-op in 1 hour by established speedrunners, no one would've brought it up. We'd all see it as a different category for a highly popular run from the previous agdq which obviously has some amount of monetary motivation behind it, but hey, a lot of runs do.
That's not the problem. The problem is the 2-hour estimate, signifying a bad run, and the implication that this was overlooked solely because of the runners' twitch popularity (and not even within the speedrunning scene).
That's not the problem. The problem is the 2-hour estimate, signifying a bad run, and the implication that this was overlooked solely because of the runners' twitch popularity (and not even within the speedrunning scene).
~
Quote from Onin:
That's not the problem. The problem is the 2-hour estimate, signifying a bad run, and the implication that this was overlooked solely because of the runners' twitch popularity (and not even within the speedrunning scene).
i also highly doubt the two submitters decided to submit glitchless because, after months/years of experience and practice with the well-researched glitched category, they believe it to be a better speedrun
Not a walrus
I realize that Minecraft is a pretty heated point of discussion right now (and there's nothing wrong with that) but posts like this:
Are not helpful.
Quote from ABookshelf:
People getting really bent out of shape over 1.3% of the marathon not meeting their standards and ignoring all the $$$ it will raise for cancer research and the exposure it will bring to speedrunning from other communities.
Are not helpful.