AGDQ 2015 Game Submissions - Due date is September 3rd 11:59 EDT [locked]

2014-08-20 06:51:26 pm

Quote from Josh the Funkdoc:

Quote from Garrison:

There is a big difference between cases like AWOG and FFT, that aside the point was more "here's some 'notable' people who don't like rpg speedruns who made an effort to vouch for the game".

i certainly understand that, and realize that crowd atmosphere for this run will be an important point in its favor.

but for whatever it's worth: if i were in mike's spot right now, my $10,000 question would be "does everyone really enjoy watching the run of this game, or are they just doing this because they're buddies with claude?" i like to play it safe and figure others would be this skeptical, so i shy away from anything remotely circlejerky when making a case. idk

would FFT be getting all of this support if it was anyone but claude submitting FFT?

ShadowWraith

2014-08-20 06:53:32 pm

.

It didn't when chessjerk submitted it last year.

thadarkman78

Edit history:

thadarkman78: 2014-08-20 06:55:11 pm

thadarkman78: 2014-08-20 06:54:54 pm

2014-08-20 06:53:41 pm

Quote from lurk:

Quote from Josh the Funkdoc:

Quote from Garrison:

There is a big difference between cases like AWOG and FFT, that aside the point was more "here's some 'notable' people who don't like rpg speedruns who made an effort to vouch for the game".

i certainly understand that, and realize that crowd atmosphere for this run will be an important point in its favor.

but for whatever it's worth: if i were in mike's spot right now, my $10,000 question would be "does everyone really enjoy watching the run of this game, or are they just doing this because they're buddies with claude?" i like to play it safe and figure others would be this skeptical, so i shy away from anything remotely circlejerky when making a case. idk

would FFT be getting all of this support if it was anyone but claude submitting FFT?

No, but if you're trying to imply that funkdoc's point about the buddies thing is true because of this line, this is not really the reason why people want FFT in. They want FFT in because of the merits of the run + claude commentary. I'll be honest and say if it was anyone else running FFT I think it would be neat to be in the marathon but I wouldn't really care if I watched it or not.

if you're trying to imply something else then well disregard this.

Also IIRC chessjerk never submitted a no-math run to FFT so not QUITE the same comparison but there are similarities for sure.

[quote="lurk"][quote="Josh the Funkdoc"][quote="Garrison"]There is a big difference between cases like AWOG and FFT, that aside the point was more "here's some 'notable' people who don't like rpg speedruns who made an effort to vouch for the game".[/quote]

i certainly understand that, and realize that crowd atmosphere for this run will be an important point in its favor.

but for whatever it's worth:  if i were in mike's spot right now, my $10,000 question would be "does everyone really enjoy watching the run of this game, or are they just doing this because they're buddies with claude?" i like to play it safe and figure others would be this skeptical, so i shy away from anything remotely circlejerky when making a case. idk[/quote]
would FFT be getting all of this support if it was anyone but claude submitting FFT?[/quote]
No, but if you're trying to imply that funkdoc's point about the buddies thing is true because of this line, this is not really the reason why people want FFT in. They want FFT in because of the merits of the run + claude commentary. I'll be honest and say if it was anyone else running FFT I think it would be neat to be in the marathon but I wouldn't really care if I watched it or not.

if you're trying to imply something else then well disregard this.

Also IIRC chessjerk never submitted a no-math run to FFT so not QUITE the same comparison but there are similarities for sure.

TheMG2

2014-08-20 06:55:33 pm

Uh... don't you mean a math? Because I thought this category was no-math?

Josh the Funkdoc

Edit history:

Josh the Funkdoc: 2014-08-20 06:57:10 pm

2014-08-20 06:56:18 pm

spread the dirt to the populace

there is a difference between a runner getting support for being good & engaging, and a runner getting support for being friends with the right people. having seen claude's stream i definitely lean toward the former, but i'm just saying that is a question i would ask every time i see one particular game get this kind of an outcry. i would have asked the same thing about pilotwings 64 at last year's SGDQ, for example.

and MG2, chessjerk submitted a run WITH math skill i think

Garrison

2014-08-20 06:56:55 pm

That question is dicey, the community opinion on the game has changed since the last year for sure mostly because of claude's work and there are more people running the game now. The best person at the game and the person who may as well be the foundation submitting the game naturally would more value than it would when it was submitted by someone who didn't stream at all at the time. The way I'd answer is yes, the game definitely has a much bigger awareness than it did last year, but claude being who he is definitely helps. It also helps that he has fantastic commentary and knows the entire game inside and out.

ShadowWraith

Edit history:

ShadowWraith: 2014-08-20 07:05:12 pm

ShadowWraith: 2014-08-20 07:03:33 pm

2014-08-20 07:03:02 pm

.

Zwataketa: Stop with the stupid no-content posts in this thread. Same warning I gave peter afro.

Re: Math vs Non-Math, I have no idea how much of a difference it makes to a run from a casual viewers perspective as I've only seen a segmented Math abuse speedrun. Can't comment on how much of a difference it would make for the marathon submission.

On top of that, RPG community opinion is the only thing that has changed regarding the game since last year, and a lot of it is because of who the runner is. I'm not denying that's a good thing for the game, but it doesn't make up for the game's shortcomings. I will however say that a charismatic runner can make a boring run tolerable, so I'll refrain from further comment on this since I haven't seen Claude's work and I don't really care either way about FFT.

Garrison

2014-08-20 07:04:48 pm

one run has 3 hours of explosions based on math, the other plays the game strategically

BaronHaynes

Edit history:

BaronHaynes: 2014-08-20 07:09:52 pm

2014-08-20 07:04:53 pm

Strange days, incredible days

If this run used math skill I'd still watch it, but I'd be way more understanding of it not making the cut. Math Skill runs involve the kind of heavy, monotonous grinding and identical battles that made me originally think FFT wasn't good marathon material. This category on this version has a lot more variety and accessibility, particularly played by a skilled commentator who understands how to present the game.

I understand Funkdoc's wariness about community "cause celebre" campaigns, but to whatever extent that's happening, I feel like it started from a collective understanding of how good a run this could be at AGDQ. I think the runner plays a role because of the merits of how he commentates the run, which IMO is very relevant to game selection.

Josh the Funkdoc

2014-08-20 07:05:56 pm

spread the dirt to the populace

no math actually is a huge enough deal to potentially tip things in the game's favor imo. if math skill isn't the most broken RPG thing ever it's at least in the conversation, and you have to grind for it too

jape

2014-08-20 07:06:31 pm

Quote from ShadowWraith:

I don't really care either way about FFT.

lurk

Edit history:

lurk: 2014-08-20 07:17:33 pm

2014-08-20 07:16:53 pm

i'm all for supporting your speedfriends. however, even if you don't want to come across as supporting "theclaude running FFT" that is what it is. you can talk up the merits of the run itself, as would anyone wanting to see a reevaluation of a rejected game, but it was only until claude submitted and was rejected that anyone seemed to care about FFT at a GDQ.

which is totally fine, and a legit response. DKR would be cut if it wasn't for toufool vs 0xwas. pilotwings was because grav was running it. town of zzt was likely only accepted into SGDQ because it was cosmo. you guys are saying don't cut FFT because it's claude.

Garrison

2014-08-20 07:23:52 pm

The world has more colors than black and white

The Sid

2014-08-20 07:24:43 pm

raising the stakes on being bad!

I don't think everyone ( or most are saying its claude here) i personal have no attachment to him as a runner and have only seen elmagus do runs, so i've seen the merit of the run w/o the runner in question. that being said i have just watch some of his highlight with commentary and i think its solid for GDQ.
the main issue is the recruit RNG and naming bid wars being front heavy being followed by a drought of donations for the game , which can be counter with cloud blindfolded final boss and some other things suggested here.

lurk

2014-08-20 07:26:11 pm

Quote from Garrison:

The world has more colors than black and white

there can only be 1 highlander

Flenop

2014-08-20 07:33:31 pm

Quote from lurk:

i'm all for supporting your speedfriends. however, even if you don't want to come across as supporting "theclaude running FFT" that is what it is. you can talk up the merits of the run itself, as would anyone wanting to see a reevaluation of a rejected game, but it was only until claude submitted and was rejected that anyone seemed to care about FFT at a GDQ.

which is totally fine, and a legit response. DKR would be cut if it wasn't for toufool vs 0xwas. pilotwings was because grav was running it. town of zzt was likely only accepted into SGDQ because it was cosmo. you guys are saying don't cut FFT because it's claude.

Speaking as someone who has never liked a marathon FFT run, whether bonus stream or "other" marathons, the commentary in the video linked in the submission was entertaining and enjoyable. I haven't finished watching due to time constraints, but I have enjoyed all of what I've watched so far. It's been a lot better than any marathon run of the game I've seen so far, and it's been better than quite a few of the GDQ RPGs as well. And I don't think I've ever watched Claude at all.

I can't speak to whether it's a good choice for a GDQ, really, but I can say as a viewer I've already enjoyed more of the linked FFT run than I have of most marathon RPG runs.

[quote="lurk"]i'm all for supporting your speedfriends. however, even if you don't want to come across as supporting "theclaude running FFT"  that is what it is. you can talk up the merits of the run itself, as would anyone wanting to see a reevaluation of a rejected game, but it was only until claude submitted and was rejected that anyone seemed to care about FFT at a GDQ.

which is totally fine, and a legit response. DKR would be cut if it wasn't for toufool vs 0xwas. pilotwings was because grav was running it.  town of zzt was likely only accepted into SGDQ because it was cosmo. you guys are saying don't cut FFT because it's claude. [/quote]
Speaking as someone who has never liked a marathon FFT run, whether bonus stream or "other" marathons, the commentary in the video linked in the submission was entertaining and enjoyable. I haven't finished watching due to time constraints, but I have enjoyed all of what I've watched so far. It's been a lot better than any marathon run of the game I've seen so far, and it's been better than quite a few of the GDQ RPGs as well. And I don't think I've ever watched Claude at all.

I can't speak to whether it's a good choice for a GDQ, really, but I can say as a viewer I've already enjoyed more of the linked FFT run than I have of most marathon RPG runs.

BaronHaynes

2014-08-20 07:33:51 pm

Strange days, incredible days

Claude running it makes a big difference on the merits of his commentary and play quality. Yes, the runner is relevant to the submission in that respect. I've personally never talked to Claude outside of making a few comments in his stream, I just think this particular FFT submission - with this combination of category and runner/commentator - is really strong and worth reconsidering.

I don't think this response boils down to just "don't cut my speedfriend's game".

Driscollad

2014-08-20 08:01:43 pm

Sometimes the runner is just as much the draw as the run. As I said, he's literally the benchmark for commentating an RPG run. What might be a valid question to those against FFT, rather simply put, is there a better RPG for this year's AGDQ, or would you prefer none at all?

Amyrlinn

2014-08-20 08:11:49 pm

Shoot! My Beyond Good and Evil run got rejected. Could I have some clues as to why? If not, I completely understand. Thank you!

chessjerk

2014-08-20 08:44:35 pm

I can't help but wonder if this entire FFT situation could have been avoided had I not offered FFT for AGDQ 2013 and AGDQ 2014, or if my horribly outdated segmented run weren't on SDA. Sad

Anyway, as mentioned, I offered it both years without having a clue as to what kind of effort would be required for RTA attempts of FFT and without ever having streamed before, so part of me is glad that I was rejected for the past two years, since it probably would have been a gigantic train wreck.

Obviously, I also support Claude for FFT No Math for AGDQ 2015. There really isn't much else that I can add that hasn't already been said by everyone else, although I wouldn't suggest adding a donation incentive to get Cloud, since you have to go through the Colliery battles, the Nelveska battle, and wait until a plot event all the way on the other side of the map before you can recruit him. If I had to guess, it could add 30 minutes to the run.

I'm still debating whether or not to offer a Math Skill run again this year. While I am obviously better prepared to make such a run happen, the only thing I have in my favor over the No Math Skill route would be a shorter run (probably 4:30 estimate vs. 5:00 estimate for No Math Skill). The Math Skill route has more obvious grinding, fewer donation incentives, and likely worse commentary (although I suppose I could enlist Claude to assist me in that department).

I can't help but wonder if this entire FFT situation could have been avoided had I not offered FFT for AGDQ 2013 and AGDQ 2014, or if my horribly outdated segmented run weren't on SDA. :(

Anyway, as mentioned, I offered it both years without having a clue as to what kind of effort would be required for RTA attempts of FFT and without ever having streamed before, so part of me is glad that I was rejected for the past two years, since it probably would have been a gigantic train wreck.

Obviously, I also support Claude for FFT No Math for AGDQ 2015. There really isn't much else that I can add that hasn't already been said by everyone else, although I wouldn't suggest adding a donation incentive to get Cloud, since you have to go through the Colliery battles, the Nelveska battle, and wait until a plot event all the way on the other side of the map before you can recruit him. If I had to guess, it could add 30 minutes to the run.

I'm still debating whether or not to offer a Math Skill run again this year. While I am obviously better prepared to make such a run happen, the only thing I have in my favor over the No Math Skill route would be a shorter run (probably 4:30 estimate vs. 5:00 estimate for No Math Skill). The Math Skill route has more obvious grinding, fewer donation incentives, and likely worse commentary (although I suppose I could enlist Claude to assist me in that department).

weirdchess1

2014-08-20 08:54:31 pm

I just wanted to register to add one more voice in support of TheClaude running FFT. Due to his charisma, the strategy and the appeal of the game, I think it would be a great run.

There are good reasons why FFT is getting more support this year than ever before, some of which have been mentioned:
* TheClaude really is one of the best commentators out there, always with great charisma in his stream.
* FFT has been snubbed from past GDQs every time it has been submitted. Meanwhile, other games are getting even their 7th or 8th showcasing at the marathon. I know for example that Alttp (still a very good game) has been in every marathon since at least AGDQ 2012. The community just wants FFT to appear at least once.
* No math is certainly the best category to run. To show the diversity throughout the run, the jobs that TheClaude uses in no-math include: squire, chemist, thief, monk, wizard, priest, time mage, lancer, summoner, samurai, holy knight, and probably others I'm forgetting. I think each battle presents new characteristics and challenges in this run, rather than every battle being the same.

I'm a little surprised at the concern about cutscenes. I think there are actually fewer cutscenes than there are in longer runs at previous GDQs, such as FFIX or FFVII. In any case, there needs to be time for donation reading and TheClaude's commentary makes the gaps in gameplay seem very small. For overall run length, the run is less than 5 hours even with bad luck. I remember 3 of the biggest hype runs at AGDQ 2014 being Trihex's SMW2YI, AdamAK's GTA Vice City, and Obdajr's Chrono Trigger, all of which were at least 3 hours, so longer runs can be easily just as hype to the viewers as shorter runs.

For donation incentives, there are always things we can come up. Besides the already mentioned character names and blindfolded final battle, some ideas:
* A dramatic acting of one of the biggest cutscenes, such as Teta's death by Algus's command or Wiegraf's transformation into Velius.
* A difficulty challenge, such as a battle with no equipment. TheClaude would have to prep for something like this ahead of time but I'm sure he could think of something like this.
* A glitch demonstration after the run, such as the JP furshop glitch (TheClaude would need the JP disc on hand for this).

Overall, I'm very thankful you're putting in all this effort making tough decisions mikwuyama, and I know there will always be people upset at the cuts. But I'd certainly recommend you change your mind on this one, as so many people here have argued.

I just wanted to register to add one more voice in support of TheClaude running FFT.  Due to his charisma, the strategy and the appeal of the game, I think it would be a great run.

There are good reasons why FFT is getting more support this year than ever before, some of which have been mentioned:
* TheClaude really is one of the best commentators out there, always with great charisma in his stream.
* FFT has been snubbed from past GDQs every time it has been submitted.  Meanwhile, other games are getting even their 7th or 8th showcasing at the marathon.  I know for example that Alttp (still a very good game) has been in every marathon since at least AGDQ 2012.  The community just wants FFT to appear at least once.
* No math is certainly the best category to run.  To show the diversity throughout the run, the jobs that TheClaude uses in no-math include: squire, chemist, thief, monk, wizard, priest, time mage, lancer, summoner, samurai, holy knight, and probably others I'm forgetting.  I think each battle presents new characteristics and challenges in this run, rather than every battle being the same.

I'm a little surprised at the concern about cutscenes.  I think there are actually fewer cutscenes than there are in longer runs at previous GDQs, such as FFIX or FFVII.  In any case, there needs to be time for donation reading and TheClaude's commentary makes the gaps in gameplay seem very small.  For overall run length, the run is less than 5 hours even with bad luck.  I remember 3 of the biggest hype runs at AGDQ 2014 being Trihex's SMW2YI, AdamAK's GTA Vice City, and Obdajr's Chrono Trigger, all of which were at least 3 hours, so longer runs can be easily just as hype to the viewers as shorter runs.

For donation incentives, there are always things we can come up.  Besides the already mentioned character names and blindfolded final battle, some ideas:
* A dramatic acting of one of the biggest cutscenes, such as Teta's death by Algus's command or Wiegraf's transformation into Velius.
* A difficulty challenge, such as a battle with no equipment.  TheClaude would have to prep for something like this ahead of time but I'm sure he could think of something like this.
* A glitch demonstration after the run, such as the JP furshop glitch (TheClaude would need the JP disc on hand for this).

Overall, I'm very thankful you're putting in all this effort making tough decisions mikwuyama, and I know there will always be people upset at the cuts.  But I'd certainly recommend you change your mind on this one, as so many people here have argued.

Zwataketa

2014-08-20 08:58:04 pm

Sonic's biggest fan at heart

Ok, seriously, what is all this talk about math referring to?

chessjerk

Edit history:

chessjerk: 2014-08-20 09:06:32 pm

2014-08-20 09:01:23 pm

Math Skill is a horribly overpowered skillset that can kill an entire map of enemies at once. It lets you cast most White, Black, Time, and Yin Yang spells instantly with no MP cost based on certain parameters. You can use CT, Experience, Level, and Height along with the numbers 5, 4, 3, and Prime Numbers. There are ways to manipulate parameters to make them targetable through certain combinations.

No Math Skill runs do not use Math Skill. Claude's path uses Draw Out (another overpowered skill set with the right setup).

Or are you asking what "math" is? Smiley

Josh the Funkdoc

Edit history:

Josh the Funkdoc: 2014-08-20 10:14:47 pm

2014-08-20 10:13:27 pm

spread the dirt to the populace

one caveat: "this other game has been in 7 or 8 times" isn't necessarily a bad thing, depends on the game.

"this game needs a break, while these other games don't" definitely has potential to be a BS copout, but i think it's valid in some cases. super metroid is often regarded as the high point of one of the classic nintendo franchises - hell, EGM ranked it their #1 game OF ALL TIME when they did a big list in the early 2000s. it has a lot of nostalgic appeal when you consider how the most recent metroid game turned out, and it's a naturally entertaining & skillful speedgame with tons of viable categories. and the twitch audience tends to be nintendo fans more than anything else. hence, it's a marathon staple.

i think the "lots of good categories" element is key (see also: sotn, smw/64), as that allows you to keep the same game in but rotate categories so it never feels worn out. that's where a lot of great speedgames have an issue and run into the "needs a break" problem, as people often don't want to see the same category 2 or 3 years in a row. i personally would argue that something like blaster master was overdone in these events, but generally the games that get in a bunch of marathons in a row deserve it.

and obviously, the marathons don't exist to give every game a turn. but i'm sure yall knew that and were referring more to the other side of that coin!

one caveat: "this other game has been in 7 or 8 times" isn't necessarily a bad thing, depends on the game.

"this game needs a break, while these other games don't" definitely has potential to be a BS copout, but i think it's valid in some cases. super metroid is often regarded as the high point of one of the classic nintendo franchises - hell, EGM ranked it their #1 game OF ALL TIME when they did a big list in the early 2000s. it has a lot of nostalgic appeal when you consider how the most recent metroid game turned out, and it's a naturally entertaining & skillful speedgame with tons of viable categories. and the twitch audience tends to be nintendo fans more than anything else. hence, it's a marathon staple.

i think the "lots of good categories" element is key (see also: sotn, smw/64), as that allows you to keep the same game in but rotate categories so it never feels worn out. that's where a lot of great speedgames have an issue and run into the "needs a break" problem, as people often don't want to see the same category 2 or 3 years in a row. i personally would argue that something like blaster master was overdone in these events, but generally the games that get in a bunch of marathons in a row deserve it.

and obviously, the marathons don't exist to give every game a turn. but i'm sure yall knew that and were referring more to the other side of that coin!

mabdulra

2014-08-20 10:59:31 pm

LADX

Howdy! First of all, thanks for organizing everything! I discovered SDA back in 2006 and have been hooked on the stuff since.

Recently my submission for Pokemon Green got waitlisted and I laughed because I didn't even realize that Werster submitted, thus leading to a surprise accidental double submission! Previously you said that you would try to make these races if they were not rejected, or something along those lines. The interesting thing here is that his submission was put down as a bonus game and mine was put into waitlist. I don't have a problem with this and I think Werster doing Pokemon would bring in donation money (the ultimate goal of this marathon) but I was a little curious about how you would handle this circumstance. Luckily the game we submitted, Pokemon Green, is unbelievably short, so I don't think it's too much of a problem. I'm just glad to have been given the chance to submit in the first place.

Anyway, thanks again. Looking forward to (hopefully) hearing back in regards to this. Smiley

Howdy! First of all, thanks for organizing everything! I discovered SDA back in 2006 and have been hooked on the stuff since.

Recently my submission for Pokemon Green got waitlisted and I laughed because I didn't even realize that Werster submitted, thus leading to a surprise accidental double submission! Previously you said that you would try to make these races if they were not rejected, or something along those lines. The interesting thing here is that his submission was put down as a bonus game and mine was put into waitlist. I don't have a problem with this and I think Werster doing Pokemon would bring in donation money (the ultimate goal of this marathon) but I was a little curious about how you would handle this circumstance. Luckily the game we submitted, Pokemon Green, is unbelievably short, so I don't think it's too much of a problem. I'm just glad to have been given the chance to submit in the first place.

Anyway, thanks again. Looking forward to (hopefully) hearing back in regards to this. :)