AGDQ 2015 Game Submissions - Due date is September 3rd 11:59 EDT [locked]

2014-08-18 07:06:11 pm

This would be a popularity contest. If say cosmo got a game rejected, he could direct all of his viewers to force the game in.

Derkman12345

2014-08-18 07:08:09 pm

Quote from TheMG2:

This would be a popularity contest. If say cosmo got a game rejected, he could direct all of his viewers to force the game in.

Yea I get that totally. I'm just more saying on a hypothetical level it would be nice.

dxtr

2014-08-18 07:09:07 pm

Speedrunner

Quote from Derkman12345:

Quote from Chrno:

Quote from Derkman12345:

Is there going to be any way to file a legitimate argument in favor of a rejected game or for it to have a second look-through? Just wondering.

It's only happened once to my knowledge in the past (last agdq?) so expect it to be a rarity if it does happen.

Would be interested to know what the decision was about Morrowind any% over Oblivion any%, but just so you know I'm not salty or anything over it, just curious really.

It would be interesting if there was a community vote slot where rejected games could be voted upon to actually make it into the marathon.

This is actually an interesting idea.

Not focus on rejected games, more like games that crew are more unsure about and put them out for voting.

mikwuyma

2014-08-18 07:12:04 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

I'll be honest, yes FFT is the most popular SRPG in the west, don't think anyone can deny that. However, that doesn't mean it's a good marathon choice. There's a lot going against the game.

1. This game has a ton of cutscenes and they are long.

Yes, many rpgs have cutscenes, and sometimes long ones, but in this game they are constant (there is one in between almost every battle) and very long (there are very few under a minute if any).

2. Random battles cost minutes.

You can't escape them, and the battle system is not the fastest. Even if you save and load, that is still a lot of time lost, and looks bad to a casual viewer.

3. The end game is tedious.

Once you set up Ramza for the end game, you primarily break katanas and cast spells to finish off what the swords didn't do.

4. The game is lacking in strong donation incentives (this is a killer).

You can name Ramza, and some random units who play no real part in the story. Are there other donation incentives? Moreso than any other genre (partially because they are so long), RPGs need donation incentives, and strong ones. I don't see strong ones in FFT.

I'll be honest, yes FFT is the most popular SRPG in the west, don't think anyone can deny that. However, that doesn't mean it's a good marathon choice. There's a lot going against the game.

1. This game has a ton of cutscenes and they are long.

Yes, many rpgs have cutscenes, and sometimes long ones, but in this game they are constant (there is one in between almost every battle) and very long (there are very few under a minute if any).

2. Random battles cost minutes.

You can't escape them, and the battle system is not the fastest. Even if you save and load, that is still a lot of time lost, and looks bad to a casual viewer.

3. The end game is tedious.

Once you set up Ramza for the end game, you primarily break katanas and cast spells to finish off what the swords didn't do.

4. The game is lacking in strong donation incentives (this is a killer).

You can name Ramza, and some random units who play no real part in the story. Are there other donation incentives? Moreso than any other genre (partially because they are so long), RPGs need donation incentives, and strong ones. I don't see strong ones in FFT.

ZeroArsov

2014-08-18 07:13:59 pm

So, How do people vote to put rejected runs on the schedule?

mikwuyma

2014-08-18 07:15:26 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

There isn't a vote, sometimes people will appeal to me using some good reasoning and facts (that's how Fire Emblem got on at AGDQ).

Carl Sagan

2014-08-18 07:18:25 pm

Claude did have some really outstanding commentary when I dropped by his stream. I expected to be bored by the idea of a FFT speedrun and was pleasantly surprised. I may just be biased though because I used to love the game.

Reiska

2014-08-18 07:20:21 pm

Quote from mikwuyma:

3. The end game is tedious.

Once you set up Ramza for the end game, you primarily break katanas and cast spells to finish off what the swords didn't do.

This describes almost every RPG speedrun I've ever seen. Even the big winners at marathons aren't immune (see: FF6 and Joker Doom/Vanish-Doom/etc.).

Quote from mikwuyma:

4. The game is lacking in strong donation incentives (this is a killer).

You can name Ramza, and some random units who play no real part in the story. Are there other donation incentives? Moreso than any other genre (partially because they are so long), RPGs need donation incentives, and strong ones. I don't see strong ones in FFT.

Respectfully, this hasn't seemed to stop five-hour Zelda runs from getting on the schedule in the past. If you're going to use this as an argument against FFT, it should be an equally strong argument against *any* game over around two hours, and that includes stuff like Skyward Sword/Twilight Princess.

mikwuyma

2014-08-18 07:20:30 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Yeah I'm not denying that claude has great commentary (I watched part of his video), but that still doesn't make it a good marathon game.

CVagts

2014-08-18 07:23:22 pm

"Let's put a SMILE on that face!"

As someone who frequently watches FFT speedruns, I’ll throw in my two cents.

1. There are some cutscenes in this game but none of them are too terribly long, and they would lend themselves well to upcoming donation incentives, prizes, etc, if nothing else. There is also a lot of strategy to discuss about FFT, and some of that will need to be explained as the cutscenes progress. And if there is an outcry of discussing the plot, that will be handled as well.

2. People don’t hate on saves and loads as much as you might think. I have yet to see someone watching an FFT stream complain about such a thing.

3. There is still different strategy to each individual battle, and explaining such would be doable for someone with very good commentary (and Claude is very, very good at commentary and knows a LOT about the game).

4. The generic units are used throughout the entire run; they are present in most of the battles. Just because they are not part of the story doesn’t mean that they’re not part of the run. To reiterate Reiska's point, the generic names and Ramza's name are brought up a lot more often than a Zelda game's filename.

As someone who frequently watches FFT speedruns, I’ll throw in my two cents.
     
1. There are some cutscenes in this game but none of them are too terribly long, and they would lend themselves well to upcoming donation incentives, prizes, etc, if nothing else.  There is also a lot of strategy to discuss about FFT, and some of that will need to be explained as the cutscenes progress.  And if there is an outcry of discussing the plot, that will be handled as well.
     
2. People don’t hate on saves and loads as much as you might think.  I have yet to see someone watching an FFT stream complain about such a thing.
     
3. There is still different strategy to each individual battle, and explaining such would be doable for someone with very good commentary (and Claude is very, very good at commentary and knows a LOT about the game).
     
4. The generic units are used throughout the entire run; they are present in most of the battles.  Just because they are not part of the story doesn’t mean that they’re not part of the run.  To reiterate Reiska's point, the generic names and Ramza's name are brought up a lot more often than a Zelda game's filename.

VB_srl

2014-08-18 07:23:34 pm

Can I please have a reasoning for Mother 3 getting cut?

rudyxx

Edit history:

rudyxx: 2014-08-18 07:53:26 pm

rudyxx: 2014-08-18 07:53:07 pm

rudyxx: 2014-08-18 07:34:38 pm

rudyxx: 2014-08-18 07:34:27 pm

rudyxx: 2014-08-18 07:34:18 pm

2014-08-18 07:24:13 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Edit: I feel like everyone here has done a much better job of saying what needs to be said, plus what I originally said was just me being mad about the entire situation.

Dana Crysalis

2014-08-18 07:24:23 pm

Let's Dance!

Regarding FFT's cutscenes: There are quite a few of them, yes, but as you pointed out, they are between the battles. Spread out. Each cutscene gives addition time to talk about what happened, what's going to happen, room for donations, etc. The cutscenes being broken up is more of a point in favor, rather than having heavyloaded 15 minute cutscenes and huge downtimes like a lot of RPGs.

tonic

2014-08-18 07:26:39 pm

I'm going to echo what the others are saying, that Claude is not only a skilled and competent speed runner, but the strengths of the game far outweigh the negatives. If things like cutscenes and occassionally resetting were a huge turn-off, Claude wouldn't have the support from both the speedrunning and casual-watcher community that he does. Many, many people feel strongly about seeing this game.

MURPHAGATOR!

Edit history:

MURPHAGATOR!: 2014-08-18 07:34:51 pm

2014-08-18 07:29:43 pm

Terraffirmative!

ZeroArsov, if you don't have actual information or something to add to the conversation, I'd advise taking your own advise on laying low unless you want us to make you lay low manually.

CardsOfTheHeart

2014-08-18 07:31:32 pm

may use a few too many Kappas

(Hopefully this doesn't get lost in the pleas for FFT, WHICH TOTALLY NEEDS TO HAPPEN AT A GDQ AT SOME POINT, by the way.)

As one who is saving up to submit Pokemon Puzzle League for next SGDQ, I am curious as to the reason(s) for the Tetris Attack cut. Zack is one of the best runners of the game you will find attending AGDQ (if not THE best) so hopefully you're not judging his skill unfairly. Basically, I need to know if my saving up for SGDQ is going to be in vain or not.

The Sid

2014-08-18 07:34:12 pm

raising the stakes on being bad!

I have to say casually watching a FFT run I didn't find either math or no math boring as a casual viewer knowing nothing about the run coming back after years of not touching FFT perfect for nostalgia goggles like most of the viewers we would target.
the amount of time spent in cut scenes is a perfect time for donation reading commentary or what ever else you may have.
naming of some units may be slim it would be more accurate to say it front loaded.
there could always be CLOUD as big of a time sink as he is to get.
then i hear blind folded final boss while not to challenging for Claude on the outside that looks insane.
idk i think FFT might have something...

emp_waifu_mugen

2014-08-18 07:38:46 pm

I don't see how naming characters and saving random people in final fantasy tactics is any different than the normal rpg-type donation incentives.I know the marathon is about the money for charity but it is also a speedrunning marathon...Not letting a game that has so much work put into the game play and the commentary is kind of insulting to the speedrunning roots of the marathon.

BaronHaynes

2014-08-18 07:41:10 pm

Strange days, incredible days

1. FFT is cutscene-heavy, but a big part of why FF runs have worked in marathons is the nostalgia factor for fans. I was in both chats for FF7, 8, and 9 when they were in marathons, and there's always people reminiscing about the game, appreciating the opportunity to relive it as part of a big event like this. Claude's commentary takes the cutscenes into account and explains details about the story that would keep casual viewers in the loop. Plenty of time for donation reading as well.

2. The time spend resetting over random battles is about the same as running from them in FF9, and statistically there's a lot fewer of them in FFT. I think Claude tends to get about 8-10 on the high end in his runs. An FF9 run can get something like 30 or 40, I think? Compared to any modern FF, Tactics probably spends the least amount of time running/loading to escape battles.

3. Whether the endgame is tedious or not is subjective, so it's hard to argue about. To anyone familiar with Tactics, seeing how best to optimize the battles, manipulating enemy AI and turn order, is really cool.

4. Donation incentives is a fair point, although Claude has suggested others apart from renaming Ramza and the generics he uses.

I think the biggest selling point for FFT is actually the way Claude presents the run, which is something I think is a bit underrated in marathons. This game done by itself, with no attempt to draw in outside viewers, would be hard to follow. But he breaks down what's happening, how he's manipulating the mechanics, all the different ways you could play it, etc. The game has a lot of personality and the way battles are set up offers some amusing moments in AI manipulation. Each battle is a unique problem to solve and Claude is good at breaking down the most efficient way to do it.

Long RPGs are always kind of a marathon unto themselves, and you keep the crowd by keeping them engaged with good presentation. I think there's a good opportunity for that here and it's a shame to not see it get a chance.

1. FFT is cutscene-heavy, but a big part of why FF runs have worked in marathons is the nostalgia factor for fans. I was in both chats for FF7, 8, and 9 when they were in marathons, and there's always people reminiscing about the game, appreciating the opportunity to relive it as part of a big event like this. Claude's commentary takes the cutscenes into account and explains details about the story that would keep casual viewers in the loop. Plenty of time for donation reading as well.

2. The time spend resetting over random battles is about the same as running from them in FF9, and statistically there's a lot fewer of them in FFT. I think Claude tends to get about 8-10 on the high end in his runs. An FF9 run can get something like 30 or 40, I think? Compared to any modern FF, Tactics probably spends the least amount of time running/loading to escape battles.

3. Whether the endgame is tedious or not is subjective, so it's hard to argue about. To anyone familiar with Tactics, seeing how best to optimize the battles, manipulating enemy AI and turn order, is really cool.

4. Donation incentives is a fair point, although Claude has suggested others apart from renaming Ramza and the generics he uses.

I think the biggest selling point for FFT is actually the way Claude presents the run, which is something I think is a bit underrated in marathons. This game done by itself, with no attempt to draw in outside viewers, would be hard to follow. But he breaks down what's happening, how he's manipulating the mechanics, all the different ways you could play it, etc. The game has a lot of personality and the way battles are set up offers some amusing moments in AI manipulation. Each battle is a unique problem to solve and Claude is good at breaking down the most efficient way to do it.

Long RPGs are always kind of a marathon unto themselves, and you keep the crowd by keeping them engaged with good presentation. I think there's a good opportunity for that here and it's a shame to not see it get a chance.

Tide

Edit history:

Tide: 2014-08-18 08:07:17 pm

Tide: 2014-08-18 07:44:44 pm

2014-08-18 07:42:56 pm

Insanity Prelude

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm just going to go over some of the stuff mentioned, even though much of it has already been addressed:

1. Cutscenes: The longest cutscene in the game is about 5-7 minutes, which isn't really that long. As others have mentioned, that's a perfect time to go over donation incentives and for Claude to go over the story. Worse comes to worse, there's a lot Claude can talk about regarding FFT speedrunning history and the different routes. In addition, Claude makes a lot of effort of cutting out dialogue in battle to further reduce unnecessary or potential in-battle dialogue.

2. Random battles: It's true you can't escape them like in traditional RPGs, which is why Claude resets as in his marathon video. Resetting for a random battle only costs 24-27 seconds, not exactly minutes. In addition, the probablity of getting into a random battle over a green dot is only about 30%, reduced if you are travelling over a greater number of green dots. I'll also second CVagts in that in all the times Claude has been streaming, this has never been an issue.

3. End Game: Claude's commentary is a real selling point here. There are lots of subtle changes and things that he does to make the battles work and as fast as possible. For example, Claude manipulates the camera to avoid it moving and losing unnecessary frames, something most players probably don't even realize. If you are breaking it down to "just breaking swords and casting spells", you can over-generalize that fora lot of games, so I don't think that's really fair.

4. Incentives: The generics, and Ramza's name are good starting points. There are additional incentives for keeping guest characters and possibly setting a birthday within a range. You can also keep a generic monster for a rolling donation incentive if you so choose. The two guest characters Claude uses are used very frequently for the strategy that he employs, so they probably see a lot more action than the story PCs. The translation is also great and you can probably have some goofy voice over donation incentive if you want to too.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm just going to go over some of the stuff mentioned, even though much of it has already been addressed:

1. Cutscenes: The longest cutscene in the game is about 5-7 minutes, which isn't really that long. As others have mentioned, that's a perfect time to go over donation incentives and for Claude to go over the story. Worse comes to worse, there's a lot Claude can talk about regarding FFT speedrunning history and the different routes.  In addition, Claude makes a lot of effort of cutting out dialogue in battle to further reduce unnecessary or potential in-battle dialogue.

2. Random battles: It's true you can't escape them like in traditional RPGs, which is why Claude resets as in his marathon video. Resetting for a random battle only costs 24-27 seconds, not exactly minutes. In addition, the probablity of getting into a random battle over a green dot is only about 30%, reduced if you are travelling over a greater number of green dots. I'll also second CVagts in that in all the times Claude has been streaming, this has never been an issue.

3. End Game: Claude's commentary is a real selling point here. There are lots of subtle changes and things that he does to make the battles work and as fast as possible. For example, Claude manipulates the camera to avoid it moving and losing unnecessary frames, something most players probably don't even realize. If you are breaking it down to "just breaking swords and casting spells", you can over-generalize that fora lot of games, so I don't think that's really fair.

4. Incentives: The generics, and Ramza's name are good starting points. There are additional incentives for keeping guest characters and possibly setting a birthday within a range. You can also keep a generic monster for a rolling donation incentive if you so choose. The two guest characters Claude uses are used very frequently for the strategy that he employs, so they probably see a lot more action than the story PCs. The translation is also great and you can probably have some goofy voice over donation incentive if you want to too.

Golden

2014-08-18 07:44:49 pm

Voice

I think FFT is a great addition because it has a strong, genuine community interest. People at the event are going to be in the room for that run. The nostalgia levels are there, Claude's commentary is refined, and perhaps most importantly, it's something fresh and different.

RamblingJosh

2014-08-18 07:48:56 pm

Many words! Handle it!

I emphatically believe that FFT is worth the (admittedly significant) time investment it asks. I for one burn out on RPG speedruns pretty quickly, but Claude and his game can easily carry my attention for the duration. It is a very well loved game, and it's something a little different from even the other RPGs we usually see. Donation incentives are a concern that I can understand, but the game is long and expansive, there are plenty of opportunities for interesting incentives if you are legitimately looking for them.

The amount of pure knowledge and dedication here is astounding. If FFT has not earned a spot in a GDQ by now, I don't know what has.

Garrison

2014-08-18 07:49:27 pm

The actual RPG community speaks volumes greater than I could about the intricacies of the run and the opportunities it provides, so I'll speak on things I personally know. Without a doubt Claude is the speedrunner I have absolute most respect for in terms of the work he pours into his games. I've watched him throughout the years dissect the run bit by bit to understand the why in specific situation and come up with an answer. He has routed the game to death, across all categories and still has a passion that I don't see in many other players. To top it all off, Claude has commentary good enough to sell me a used car. FFT as a game provides something different than the typical marathon game, yet has the Final Fantasy name to cash in on and a huge backing from its fanbase both in terms of nostalgia and critical acclaim. This game in my opinion is one of the most watchable RPG runs, period and Claude is one of the best speedrunners and one of the best commentators. It would be a true shame to see an opportunity like this die from playing it safe.

Vejita00

Edit history:

Vejita00: 2014-08-18 08:04:10 pm

2014-08-18 07:57:42 pm

I had to make an account to post here, I couldn't help myself.
Everyone has covered many of the other reasons why FFT should really be in AGDQ, especially with Claude at the helm. However, rather than beat those points into the ground. I want to just mention something else to why you really want Claude in there running this game.

Passion, dedication, and knowledge.

I've known Claude since before he ever considered speedrunning, streaming wasn't even a thing yet. You know where I met him? An FFT message board. Claude has a passion for this game. He has been playing it since the day it came out and I challenge you to find anyone who is more dedicated to it, and is more knowledgeable about it. Even more so, he can take all of that knowledge and explain it to a total casual fan of the game and get them to understand it. In fact, he does it over and over, never shying away from answering questions in his stream.
You don't need to be concerned about down time during cutscenes because Claude will keep every person on the edge of their seat, and by the time that run is finished, even if no one had ever touched FFT before; they will leave with a lot of newfound knowledge.

Farlem.

I had to make an account to post here, I couldn't help myself.
Everyone has covered many of the other reasons why FFT should really be in AGDQ, especially with Claude at the helm. However, rather than beat those points into the ground. I want to just mention something else to why you really want Claude in there running this game.

Passion, dedication, and knowledge.

I've known Claude since before he ever considered speedrunning, streaming wasn't even a thing yet. You know where I met him? An FFT message board. Claude has a passion for this game. He has been playing it since the day it came out and I challenge you to find anyone who is more dedicated to it, and is more knowledgeable about it. Even more so, he can take all of that knowledge and explain it to a total casual fan of the game and get them to understand it. In fact, he does it over and over, never shying away from answering questions in his stream.
You don't need to be concerned about down time during cutscenes because Claude will keep every person on the edge of their seat, and by the time that run is finished, even if no one had ever touched FFT before; they will leave with a lot of newfound knowledge.

Farlem.

Wawlconut

2014-08-18 08:01:50 pm

Personally I found it odd that a game like this would be rejected given that I felt it was on the shorter stick of RPG speedruns making it a nice perfect fit and it has the Squaresoft name attached to it so it's a game from a reputable company. I honestly feel like this game would be perfect because it gives something similar (Final Fantasy) but different (Tactics) and I think it would be a nice breath of fresh air to Final Fantasy runs in marathons.