What games are RPGs? An exploratory answer...

grndino

2011-06-21 06:18:30 pm

list any game feature at all, it's probably been used to aid in roleplay.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-06-21 06:51:00 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-06-21 06:44:03 pm

2011-06-21 06:20:22 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Yeah, at this point, I think it'd be a better goal to list everything in a game, separate them all, and remake all the genres the way this discussion is heading. Either that or revert back into our repressive shells and hold dear to the genres made in the infancy of games.

Inventory Management
Stat Upkeep (hunger, water, etc.)
How many different things there are to do in a game (battles, talking to NPCs, exploration, driving, flying, sleeping, bathing, etc.)
Story
Main quests
Side quests
Rewards

Schwaumlaut

Edit history:

Schwaumlaut: 2011-06-21 06:29:35 pm

2011-06-21 06:28:29 pm

Not necessarily. We need only list things we suspect might be risk factors for RPG. Whether or not they actually are is for the survey results to sort out.

It's a good idea to have some things which we don't suspect are risk factors in there as well, though.

Guest

2011-06-21 07:39:36 pm

"Role-playing games are games in which players assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively create stories. Players determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games."

By this very definition of a role-playing game, there are no computer games that are RPGs. Dues Ex would be one of the very few games that comes close to being one. The term "RPG" is simply a misnomer that has been in common use for quite some time. Because of this, everyone will have a different idea and/or opinion of what computer game truly classifies as a RPG and will be unable to fully answer your question. But you need not be troubled, as you have already found the answer yourself:

Quote from ZenicReverie:

...should I just forget the term RPG and play whatever the heck I want instead?

[i]"Role-playing games are games in which players assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively create stories. Players determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games."[/i]

By this very definition of a role-playing game, there are no computer games that are RPGs. Dues Ex would be one of the very few games that comes close to being one. The term "RPG" is simply a misnomer that has been in common use for quite some time. Because of this, everyone will have a different idea and/or opinion of what computer game truly classifies as a RPG and will be unable to fully answer your question.  But you need not be troubled, as you have already found the answer yourself:

[quote="ZenicReverie"]...should I just forget the term RPG and play whatever the heck I want instead?[/quote]

ZenicReverie

2011-06-21 08:06:47 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Guest:

"Role-playing games are games in which players assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively create stories. Players determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games."

By this very definition of a role-playing game, there are no computer games that are RPGs. Dues Ex would be one of the very few games that comes close to being one. The term "RPG" is simply a misnomer that has been in common use for quite some time. Because of this, everyone will have a different idea and/or opinion of what computer game truly classifies as a RPG and will be unable to fully answer your question. But you need not be troubled, as you have already found the answer yourself:

Quote from ZenicReverie:

...should I just forget the term RPG and play whatever the heck I want instead?

That's all been said already. No reason to repeat it.

I'm not trying to figure out what games fit into the role-playing mold of the non-computer RPG definition, I'm trying to figure out if there's enough common ground to stand on for all these computer games the general public calls RPGs to determine a definition or possibly where lines can be drawn between one set and another. Tossing our hands up and saying it's just too illogical to determine is one option, but why do that when we can examine it fully?

Do you know of any other games aside from Deus Ex?

[quote="Guest"][i]"Role-playing games are games in which players assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively create stories. Players determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games."[/i]

By this very definition of a role-playing game, there are no computer games that are RPGs. Dues Ex would be one of the very few games that comes close to being one. The term "RPG" is simply a misnomer that has been in common use for quite some time. Because of this, everyone will have a different idea and/or opinion of what computer game truly classifies as a RPG and will be unable to fully answer your question.  But you need not be troubled, as you have already found the answer yourself:

[quote="ZenicReverie"]...should I just forget the term RPG and play whatever the heck I want instead?[/quote][/quote]
That's all been said already. No reason to repeat it.

I'm not trying to figure out what games fit into the role-playing mold of the non-computer RPG definition, I'm trying to figure out if there's enough common ground to stand on for all these computer games the general public calls RPGs to determine a definition or possibly where lines can be drawn between one set and another. Tossing our hands up and saying it's just too illogical to determine is one option, but why do that when we can examine it fully?

Do you know of any other games aside from Deus Ex?

Guest

2011-06-21 09:15:19 pm

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Tossing our hands up and saying it's just too illogical to determine is one option, but why do that when we can examine it fully?

Because the problem lies in your original question, "What games are RPGs?" Since it's already been established that the term RPG is a misnomer, then the question is no longer valid. The term has been used too broadly and covers a multitude of various kinds of games. Not even developers can get it right.

A better question to ask would be "What games are like (insert name of favorite game here)?" "I want to play every single game that is like (insert name of favorite game here)." Ask the question in this manner, and there would be no need to try to redefine the genre. Not only that, but you would also only be playing the kinds of games that you truly enjoy and you can add to and modify your list as you go along and avoid wasting time on any games that you don't enjoy.

Itsu de Mo

2011-06-21 09:28:59 pm

Arrested for felony abuse of emotes

The problem with using the question "What games are like (favorite game here)?" is you're going to miss out on some real gems.

If I only played Zelda-type games, I never would have discovered games like Persona, Baten Kaitos, or Disgaea.

Maybe Zenic wants to "waste his time" on the "bad" games. Really, even bad is somewhat up to the person to determine. All of you may say Oblivion is one of the most amazing games out there, but I consider it "bad" because I suck at it. XD There's more than that to it, but just using that as an example. Tongue

ZenicReverie

2011-06-21 09:54:49 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Guest:

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Tossing our hands up and saying it's just too illogical to determine is one option, but why do that when we can examine it fully?

Because the problem lies in your original question, "What games are RPGs?" Since it's already been established that the term RPG is a misnomer, then the question is no longer valid. The term has been used too broadly and covers a multitude of various kinds of games. Not even developers can get it right.

A better question to ask would be "What games are like (insert name of favorite game here)?" "I want to play every single game that is like (insert name of favorite game here)." Ask the question in this manner, and there would be no need to try to redefine the genre. Not only that, but you would also only be playing the kinds of games that you truly enjoy and you can add to and modify your list as you go along and avoid wasting time on any games that you don't enjoy.

The question can easily be changed to "What games are considered RPGs?" Then, the obvious follow up of "Why?" Just because you're hung up on the initial question doesn't mean the discussion hasn't progressed passed that point. To say I won't play something because it's not like another game I really like is limiting, and I wouldn't do that. I'd rather explore the RPG genre however arbitrary, even if it spans multiple types of games some of which I may not like.

[quote="Guest"][quote="ZenicReverie"]Tossing our hands up and saying it's just too illogical to determine is one option, but why do that when we can examine it fully?[/quote]

Because the problem lies in your original question, "What games are RPGs?" Since it's already been established that the term RPG is a misnomer, then the question is no longer valid. The term has been used too broadly and covers a multitude of various kinds of games. Not even developers can get it right.

A better question to ask would be "What games are like (insert name of favorite game here)?" "I want to play every single game that is like (insert name of favorite game here)."  Ask the question in this manner, and there would be no need to try to redefine the genre. Not only that, but you would also only be playing the kinds of games that you truly enjoy and you can add to and modify your list as you go along and avoid wasting time on any games that you don't enjoy.[/quote]
The question can easily be changed to "What games are considered RPGs?" Then, the obvious follow up of "Why?" Just because you're hung up on the initial question doesn't mean the discussion hasn't progressed passed that point. To say I won't play something because it's not like another game I really like is limiting, and I wouldn't do that. I'd rather explore the RPG genre however arbitrary, even if it spans multiple types of games some of which I may not like.

Guest

2011-06-21 11:12:51 pm

My fear of you playing a wide range of games that you don't enjoy is that you'll burn yourself out quickly. I don't know what your personal tastes are as far as RPGs goes, so... On another note, as far as list goes, have you checked out the RPGamer website? They have a pretty exhaustive list of every type of RPG. They have lists of upcoming games, as well all games listed by series. You'll also find screenshots, reviews, basic story descriptions and videos for various games, so you can get a good idea of what the game will be like before you dive into it. Check it out if get a chance.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-06-22 01:32:44 am

2011-06-22 01:31:26 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

I'm taking it slow, so I hope to have little issue with burnout. I'm interested in playing most RPGs, and have played them for many years. There are very few games that I'm dreading, like Pokemon, Animorphs, and Falling Star. I'm definitely going to mix things up with games I know I'll enjoy or have enjoyed in the past if I'm drained after an extremely bad game.

Thanks for the site, I'll use it to double check my list. So far I've been using Moby Games with the RPG filter and it's been helpful. I'm seeing some games on RPGamer that I definitely wouldn't consider RPGs (ActRaiser 2, the Yakuza series, StarTropics, and Zelda games) and it's going to be a little hard to parse since I can't filter out foreign titles and PC games, but it's another resource I'll consider.

Vimgur

2011-06-24 08:46:45 pm

May I ask why it's console-only? You miss out on great games and I don't really see how console and PC differ.

ZenicReverie

2011-06-24 11:22:08 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Vimgur:

May I ask why it's console-only? You miss out on great games and I don't really see how console and PC differ.

Because I don't have a good computer, and I hate trying to make them work. I've always had bad luck with those things and getting the correct drivers. With console, I know the game is going to work the way it's supposed to, and I don't have to worry about the machine meeting the requirements of the game. Also, this way I get to exclude indie and flash games, as those would definitely bog down the project to no end.

Zehnpai

2011-07-02 12:58:21 pm

I've ~sorta~ been doing this since on my phone emulator it's hard to play action/adventure games. I'm mostly restricted to old school RPG's. I would highly recommend mixing it up with SRPG and light ARPG (Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, etc...) on occasion.

Playing straight up old fashioned CRPG's and JRPG's where you basically mash a single key as your grind levels walking from point A to B to C gets old fast. I played Phantasy Star 3 followed by Arcana followed by Earthbound and while great games I loved...yeah. Grind mobs, kill boss, buy new weapons, sell old, move onto next dungeon. Rinse repeat.

As for the 'what is an rpg?' debate itself, you'll get a different answer from everyone you ask because everyone valued the genre for something different. I read that article posted earlier and it came across extremely wishy washy about the story telling and open ended adventure and what I loved most about RPG's was the dice rolling, luck and numbers game.

Dessyreqt

2011-07-06 11:00:42 am

I know of a great RPG on the SNES. You play a mercenary looking to recover a valuable item from a powerful thief who has hidden himself away in the depths of a dangerous lair. This game features stats, skill improvements, learning new abilities, and some inventory management, but keeps everything simple so the learning curve is low. It also has the most engaging atmosphere I've ever seen in an SNES game. It's a little light on NPC interaction, but that's more to do with the setting than anything else. The game features some spoken dialog, incredible music, and clear, yet detailed graphics. It's also pretty free form, allowing you to explore the world at your pace and on your terms.

I highly recommend it. It's not what you'd call a traditional JRPG, but it's probably the best game I've ever played.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-07-06 01:29:36 pm

2011-07-06 01:23:16 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Is part of the game guessing the game you're talking about?

Sounds like you're trying to describe zelda: alttp almost, but that's not an RPG, so maybe I'm wrong.

grndino

2011-07-06 02:25:50 pm

lttp is an rpg

Idkbutlike2

2011-07-06 02:58:14 pm

Quote from grndino:

lttp is an rpg

For God's sake, do not start a discussion about whether Zelda games are RPGs or not. It's just kicking a dead dog.

Dessyreqt

2011-07-06 03:11:37 pm

Actually my point is that RPG is such a broad, subjective term that it both applies and doesn't apply to too many games. I was describing Super Metroid. I wouldn't actually call that game an RPG, of course. It's nothing like what is generally accepted as an RPG. But it's a hell of a lot more engaging and atmospheric than some games that ARE "RPGs."

Interesting that you should bring up LttP since it's a prime example: I don't consider it an RPG, but many people do. I can't fault them for that, though, just because the term is so broad; every game with a metaphorical framework surrounding the game mechanics is technically a game where you are playing the role of someone who is not yourself, and thus an RPG to a limited extent. Thus, I tend to refer to what a lot of people consider RPGs as "statistics games" since the main defining characteristic of those games is how many statistics affect gameplay.

grndino

2011-07-06 03:17:03 pm

every game has statistics that effect it

Dessyreqt

2011-07-06 03:18:13 pm

This is true, but most "non-RPGs" tend to hide that information away from the player.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-07-06 03:27:03 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-07-06 03:26:23 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-07-06 03:26:00 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-07-06 03:24:15 pm

2011-07-06 03:21:59 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

If you try to compare a console RPG to pen & paper RPGs, then yes, nearly every video game can be considered an RPG. Especially adventure games. Text based adventure games play more like pen & paper RPGs than Super Metroid (imagine the blinking cursor taking the place of the GM asking, "what do you want to do next?"), and I don't consider those RPGs (most people don't). Now, the term to use to differentiate with is console RPG I suppose; otherwise, you get people saying, "Oh, Zelda is an RPG. Oh, and Super Metroid! Oh, and Yakuza! How about Shenmue?"

I can definitely say no to the first two because I've played them. BDA says no to the third, and I trust that assessment. I'm going to start playing Shenmue tonight, but I don't have a lot of hope for it either.

Quote from Dessyreqt:

This is true, but most "non-RPGs" tend to hide that information away from the player.

Unless you're playing a strategy game, which may not hide anything at all, and most people wouldn't call an RPG unless each unit had a unique name.

If you try to compare a console RPG to pen & paper RPGs, then yes, nearly every video game can be considered an RPG. Especially adventure games. Text based adventure games play more like pen & paper RPGs than Super Metroid (imagine the blinking cursor taking the place of the GM asking, "what do you want to do next?"), and I don't consider those RPGs (most people don't). Now, the term to use to differentiate with is console RPG I suppose; otherwise, you get people saying, "Oh, Zelda is an RPG. Oh, and Super Metroid! Oh, and Yakuza! How about Shenmue?"

I can definitely say no to the first two because I've played them. BDA says no to the third, and I trust that assessment. I'm going to start playing Shenmue tonight, but I don't have a lot of hope for it either.

[quote="Dessyreqt"]This is true, but most "non-RPGs" tend to hide that information away from the player.[/quote]
Unless you're playing a strategy game, which may not hide anything at all, and most people wouldn't call an RPG unless each unit had a unique name.

Dessyreqt

Edit history:

Dessyreqt: 2011-07-06 03:32:12 pm

2011-07-06 03:31:46 pm

The key word there was "most." How would you classify Symphony of the Night? It hits just about every point as far as RPGs go: you have an inventory full of stuff, you have several stats that determine (partially) your effectiveness, there's actual conversation going on between characters at many points in the game, a story that develops (albeit not much of one), you level up, your damage dealt and received is displayed to you, you can cast spells that cost mana, etc., etc. Does the fact that you jump on platforms and combat in real time make it not an RPG? Or is it generally considered to be one?

grndino

2011-07-06 04:11:52 pm

zelda
metroid
yakuza
shenmue

all rpgs. this is pretty simple. does the game describe a story, a world, or a character? bam, rpg. the word is to distinguish from the kind of games that aren't rpgs - like tag, which isn't given any sort of context. a 'game' in general is something that describes a set of mechanical processes, while an rpg will add context, which gives it a much more straightforward creative purpose.

ZenicReverie

2011-07-06 04:12:25 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

It's generally considered to be an action RPG. From what I've seen, if the character (or character's pets or vehicles) directly increase in stats and/or abilities that are not solely reliant on items or equipment, then the game is usually termed an RPG. If you have more direct control over your character then it's an action RPG. I played Fragile Dreams recently, which calls itself a light RPG; it only has an inventory, experience gained from killing enemies that give you levels, and the higher your level the more HP you have and the more damage you do. It has a story and other characters you interact with, but it didn't feel anything like an RPG. If someone said, "I like RPGs" that isn't a game I'd suggest to them.

ZenicReverie

2011-07-06 04:13:07 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from grndino:

zelda
metroid
yakuza
shenmue

all rpgs. this is pretty simple. does the game describe a story, a world, or a character? bam, rpg. the word is to distinguish from the kind of games that aren't rpgs - like tag, which isn't given any sort of context. a 'game' in general is something that describes a set of mechanical processes, while an rpg will add context, which gives it a much more straightforward creative purpose.

I see you trollin'.

U.N. Squadron? bam RPG! Wink