What games are RPGs? An exploratory answer...

2011-06-21 01:20:38 pm

The way I see it, character statistics are the core of RPGs. Off the top of my head, RPG elements include stuff like:

Permanent (or nearly permanent) stat increases (rules out Mario/Contra style powerups and Katamari Damacy-style reset at every level)
Character options which increase in number/scope/complexity as the game progresses (rules out Shadow of the Colossus, other games where you start with most abilities unlocked, even if you have limits when assigning them)
The game can be made significantly easier by investing time into repetitive tasks (bonus points if grinding/certain minimum stats are necessary to advance past a checkpoint)

I figure the more of these kinds of elements a game has, and the more it emphasizes them, the more RPG-like it is.

Riskbreaker Y

Edit history:

Riskbreaker Y: 2011-06-21 01:22:33 pm

2011-06-21 01:21:35 pm

berserker status

Quote from feasel:

Not sure about this "repeated actions rather than collecting items" thing. By "repeated actions" i assume you mean killing enemies and gaining XP. But you'll probably find true RPGs that allow you to increase your stats both by gaining XP and by collecting items. If you're just trying to exclude zelda-like games it may be easier just to say "no zelda-like games", rather than trying to objectively pinpoint what properties make something zelda-like.

This is an interesting point. For example, Vagrant Story uses a system of racking up 'Battle Points' for earning new Chain abilities (the closest thing to gaining level in the game) but they are earned by timing your chain attacks correctly. You can theoretically grind on a single enemy until you decide to kill it and cash in your points. Another game I can think of that uses something similar to this is Double Dragon. That one we can say is not an rpg...so yea, this requirement may need some rewording although I think it's fairly accurate to an extent.

[quote="feasel"]Not sure about this "repeated actions rather than collecting items" thing.  By "repeated actions" i assume you mean killing enemies and gaining XP.  But you'll probably find true RPGs that allow you to increase your stats both by gaining XP and by collecting items.  If you're just trying to exclude zelda-like games it may be easier just to say "no zelda-like games", rather than trying to objectively pinpoint what properties make something zelda-like.
[/quote]

This is an interesting point.  For example, Vagrant Story uses a system of racking up 'Battle Points' for earning new Chain abilities (the closest thing to gaining level in the game) but they are earned by timing your chain attacks correctly.  You can theoretically grind on a single enemy until you decide to kill it and cash in your points.  Another game I can think of that uses something similar to this is Double Dragon.  That one we can say is not an rpg...so yea, this requirement may need some rewording although I think it's fairly accurate to an extent.

Schwaumlaut

2011-06-21 01:25:11 pm

I think that the repetitive actions thing is onto something. The prototypical console RPGs are Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, and grinding is a huge part of those games. Can you think of a game which is primarily an RPG where grinding is not a core mechanic?

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-06-21 01:41:03 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-06-21 01:37:13 pm

2011-06-21 01:36:20 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

So you're suggesting it's actually repeated actions (grinding) that make a game an RPG, and not necessarily the rewards for such actions? That would definitely explain why Monster Hunter is considered an RPG while Armored Core is not. Let's just call them grinding games. Wink

So, how does The Sims get removed from the RPG stigma? Of course, it gets termed an even more arbitrary genre, 'simulation'.

Schwaumlaut

Edit history:

Schwaumlaut: 2011-06-21 01:57:30 pm

Schwaumlaut: 2011-06-21 01:57:00 pm

2011-06-21 01:42:31 pm

I think it's necessary, but not sufficient - most puzzle games, for example, are the same thing over and over again, but they're not really RPGs since they don't have characters or statistical advancement. I forgot to mention that I also tend to think of it as more of a continuum; stuff with more RPG elements are more RPG like, and things with fewer end up in hybrid categories like action-RPG or are not RPGs at all.

I think the fact that repetitive actions make the game easier is also important - when I think of RPGs, I think of games where lack of technical skill can be 'overcome' by grinding until your stats are high enough (e.g. Kingdom Hearts, Metroidvanias) or where lack of brains can be 'overcome' the same way (compare Final Fantasy Tactics or FFXIII, where grinding helps, to Advance Wars, where you're on your own).

It's worth adding that with more difficult RPGs, or with optional bosses, and so on, leveling up may just be a prerequisite to being able to complete something at all, rather than making it possible to brute force it. This seems to be more and more true with recent games, where even with maxed characters, figuring out the puzzle/strategy/trick to defeat postgame bosses isn't optional.

I think it's necessary, but not sufficient - most puzzle games, for example, are the same thing over and over again, but they're not really RPGs since they don't have characters or statistical advancement. I forgot to mention that I also tend to think of it as more of a continuum; stuff with more RPG elements are more RPG like, and things with fewer end up in hybrid categories like action-RPG or are not RPGs at all.

I think the fact that repetitive actions make the game easier is also important - when I think of RPGs, I think of games where lack of technical skill can be 'overcome' by grinding until your stats are high enough (e.g. Kingdom Hearts, Metroidvanias) or where lack of brains can be 'overcome' the same way (compare Final Fantasy Tactics or FFXIII, where grinding helps, to Advance Wars, where you're on your own).

It's worth adding that with more difficult RPGs, or with optional bosses, and so on, leveling up may just be a prerequisite to being able to complete something at all, rather than making it possible to brute force it. This seems to be more and more true with recent games, where even with maxed characters, figuring out the puzzle/strategy/trick to defeat postgame bosses isn't optional.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-06-21 02:07:56 pm

2011-06-21 02:03:39 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

I believe there are RPGs where grinding doesn't make it any easier, and I'm trying to remember one where grinding wouldn't help at all (or possibly where grinding isn't even an option).

Castlevania II possibly. I'm pretty sure there's more.

Aren't most of the SMT games about figuring out the best way to beat bosses? Seems that way from the discussion I've seen on IRC.

It still doesn't explain why The Sims is a simulation instead of an RPG. Definitely grinding to get better, but still not considered an RPG. Monster Rancher games are another example.

Schwaumlaut

2011-06-21 02:18:50 pm

I think that the Metroidvanias are better described as action RPGs, since technical skill is really important to finishing them. I'd also file SMT games under really difficult RPGs, but that might just be because I'm bad at them.

As far as the Sims as simulation go, I don't usually have much truck with authorial intent, but given that it's named "the Sims", is a spinoff of a bunch of simulation games, and aims for a (n increasingly stylized) simulation of life, I think that the focus is more on simulation than stat-building. Most RPGs also have antagonists, or at least unavoidable conflict. In the Sims, you can just spend all your time drowning your puppets in the pool, or making them soil themselves, or whatever. I haven't played Monster Rancher; what's it like?

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-06-21 02:27:00 pm

2011-06-21 02:24:07 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Schwaumlaut:

I haven't played Monster Rancher; what's it like?

You raise monsters and can have them battle in an arena. Some games have them exploring dungeons I think. The emphasis though is on raising monsters on your farm, feeding, breeding them, exercising them, and so on. Again, most of them get a genre combination of simulation, strategy, and action.

I also see card games getting the RPG genre attached to them: Pokemon TCG and Yu-Gi-Oh! seem to be most common to get that tag.

Schwaumlaut

2011-06-21 02:26:20 pm

So, another thing Monster Rancher and the Sims have in common is that they don't have an end?

Re: card games, yeah, I'm not sure I'd call Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories an RPG if it weren't part of the Kingdom Hearts franchise. I guess there's always the grinding for more cards to build a deck, but it's sort of a stretch.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-06-21 02:32:41 pm

2011-06-21 02:29:00 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Schwaumlaut:

So, another thing Monster Rancher and the Sims have in common is that they don't have an end?

Depends on which game, but I'm pretty sure even if the main story ends you can continue to raise and battle monsters. That does seem to contribute, but Oblivion has doesn't really have to end. Once you've met all goals you can continue to roam the land killing everything in sight.

Quote from Schwaumlaut:

Re: card games, yeah, I'm not sure I'd call Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories an RPG if it weren't part of the Kingdom Hearts franchise. I guess there's always the grinding for more cards to build a deck, but it's sort of a stretch.

Kingdom Hearts does have levels and abilities though, in addition to the deck that controls attacks. I was mainly thinking of the games I added in my edit (i.e. actual card games put into an arbitrary story). Another is the Duel Masters games.

Schwaumlaut

2011-06-21 02:31:48 pm

Well, postgame content isn't really supposed to have an end, so if Monster Rancher mainly takes place in the postgame, it sounds like it's as much an RPG as Pokemon is.

Unless the battle system is more action-y? Might be an action RPG. It's hard to make intelligent comments about a game I've never played.

ZenicReverie

2011-06-21 02:38:37 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Schwaumlaut:

Well, postgame content isn't really supposed to have an end, so if Monster Rancher mainly takes place in the postgame, it sounds like it's as much an RPG as Pokemon is.

Unless the battle system is more action-y? Might be an action RPG. It's hard to make intelligent comments about a game I've never played.

I've only played the first one for very little time, and it's the same kind of battle system (menu and turn based, but I don't remember an emphasis on powers or special abilities), but I don't think the monsters can experience. You get money for winning and spend money on food and equipment to train the monsters more.

I could be getting some of the details mixed up with Dragon Seed though. It's been quite a while since I've played those games.

Schwaumlaut

2011-06-21 02:42:16 pm

I don't see much of a difference between experience points used to buy stats (or used to level up, giving you stat points to buy stats) and money used to buy food that buys stats, so if that's the advancement, it seems like an RPG to me.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-06-21 03:39:22 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-06-21 03:38:52 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-06-21 03:34:18 pm

2011-06-21 03:32:24 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

But, money to buy better cards in a card game is similar to buying stats as you're buying something that increases your ability to win at whatever battle or competition system there is. This is probably why the collectible card games got deemed RPGs (in addition to having a story backdrop).

Edit 1: Taking pictures of ghosts in Fatal Frame gets you points to buy abilities that make it easier to battle. I don't know anyone that would call this game an RPG, but where is the line drawn between one system of advancement and another?

Edit 2: Another example is the Deception series (sans the first I think) where you don't get levels or character stats, only points at the end of a stage to buy traps. It gets an RPG label at mobygames and wikipedia as a strategy-RPG, but why even call it an RPG? Is it the story? The trap progression?

Schwaumlaut

Edit history:

Schwaumlaut: 2011-06-21 03:41:43 pm

2011-06-21 03:39:23 pm

I don't think there is a bright line, hence the phrase "RPG elements". I do think that we can at least define our terms more clearly, though.

Also, I have never heard of Deception. Back shortly.

Okay, just watched a video; it's Porrasturvat with a trap shop? Sounds more like Crush the Castle than most RPGs...

ZenicReverie

2011-06-21 03:45:33 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

It's those elements I'm trying to define better and understand why those elements in one game will get people calling it an RPG and in others it's not.

Schwaumlaut

2011-06-21 03:57:06 pm

Watched a few more Deception videos, and it seems like the game also has cutscenes, etc. that people tend to associate with RPGs.

Maybe we should come up with some groupings of games which share a lot of similarities, but are not all RPGs...

Halo vs. Fallout 3 vs. Oblivion. In particular, is Fallout 3 more of an RPG than Oblivion, or vice versa? Are they equally RPG-y?

Castlevania vs. Castlevania 2 vs. SotN?

TMNT (NES) vs. Zelda II vs. Portrait of Ruin?

Shadow of the Colossus vs. Devil May Cry vs. Ocarina of Time vs. Star Ocean 3?

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2011-06-21 04:18:03 pm

ZenicReverie: 2011-06-21 04:15:38 pm

2011-06-21 04:13:37 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Schwaumlaut:

Watched a few more Deception videos, and it seems like the game also has cutscenes, etc. that people tend to associate with RPGs.

I actually think the first one was more of an RPG, so maybe the genre stuck around for the sequels even though they weren't quite the same.

Quote from Schwaumlaut:

Maybe we should come up with some groupings of games which share a lot of similarities, but are not all RPGs...

Halo vs. Fallout 3 vs. Oblivion. In particular, is Fallout 3 more of an RPG than Oblivion, or vice versa? Are they equally RPG-y?

I'd say they're equal, but I haven't played Fallout 3.

Quote from Schwaumlaut:

Castlevania vs. Castlevania 2 vs. SotN?

TMNT (NES) vs. Zelda II vs. Portrait of Ruin?

Shadow of the Colossus vs. Devil May Cry vs. Ocarina of Time vs. Star Ocean 3?

I'd remove Star Ocean 3 from the list though since it goes to a different screen for battles, which is attributed to RPGs. Fragile Dreams should be added there though.

Itsu de Mo

2011-06-21 04:20:18 pm

Arrested for felony abuse of emotes

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Aren't most of the SMT games about figuring out the best way to beat bosses? Seems that way from the discussion I've seen on IRC.

I know the Persona branches of SMT are more strategy based for bosses than grinding. In Persona 3, it's near impossible to really grind levels since you and your teammates eventually get tired and don't fight up to par. If you get hit with that debuff early in the night, it's extremely frustrating. Add onto that the PS2 versions of P3, you have no direct control over your teammates.. >< I wanted to smash my controller into the wall more than a few times.

Digital Devil Saga, however does allow some point of grinding. Still a pain in the ass to do, but it's possible. Just don't think you'll take on the ultimate bosses by grinding, but you'll get through the main story.

I don't know about the others in the SMT line to be able to finish answering that statement, however. ^^;

If you don't include card-based games as RPGs, then what would the Baten Kaitos games be? I personally consider them RPGs, myself. But compared to something like Yu-Gi-Oh or the Pokemon Trading Card game (and talking about the video game versions here)... Actually, I've never been able to see the TCG type games as RPGs. Strategy maybe, but not really RPGs.

[quote="ZenicReverie"]Aren't most of the SMT games about figuring out the best way to beat bosses? Seems that way from the discussion I've seen on IRC.[/quote]

I know the Persona branches of SMT are more strategy based for bosses than grinding.  In Persona 3, it's near impossible to really grind levels since you and your teammates eventually get tired and don't fight up to par.  If you get hit with that debuff early in the night, it's extremely frustrating.  Add onto that the PS2 versions of P3, you have no direct control over your teammates.. >< I wanted to smash my controller into the wall more than a few times.

Digital Devil Saga, however does allow some point of grinding.  Still a pain in the ass to do, but it's possible.  Just don't think you'll take on the ultimate bosses by grinding, but you'll get through the main story.

I don't know about the others in the SMT line to be able to finish answering that statement, however. ^^;

If you don't include card-based games as RPGs, then what would the Baten Kaitos games be?  I personally consider them RPGs, myself.  But compared to something like Yu-Gi-Oh or the Pokemon Trading Card game (and talking about the video game versions here)...  Actually, I've never been able to see the TCG type games as RPGs.  Strategy maybe, but not really RPGs.

ZenicReverie

2011-06-21 04:48:44 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Itsu de Mo:

If you don't include card-based games as RPGs, then what would the Baten Kaitos games be? I personally consider them RPGs, myself. But compared to something like Yu-Gi-Oh or the Pokemon Trading Card game (and talking about the video game versions here)... Actually, I've never been able to see the TCG type games as RPGs. Strategy maybe, but not really RPGs.

Yeah, sorry I wasn't more clear, I meant trading (collectible) card games. Not games where cards represent attacks, objects, items, or characters; otherwise, I'd have exclude Lost Kingdoms (1 and 2), Arcana, Ogre Battle, Kartia, Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories, and I'm sure there are others, but I'm blanking.

Schwaumlaut

2011-06-21 04:48:56 pm

So maybe we can do an RPG score like the TIMI Risk Score, or something.

ZenicReverie

2011-06-21 04:55:00 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Schwaumlaut:

So maybe we can do an RPG score like the TIMI Risk Score, or something.

A scaling RPG value based on how much of an RPG a particular game is? We could definitely try to get something like that once we nail down the criteria for what elements make an RPG.

Wouldn't doing so require us to know what a 100% RPG looks like vs. a 0% RPG? I feel like that won't ever happen.

Schwaumlaut

Edit history:

Schwaumlaut: 2011-06-21 05:30:24 pm

Schwaumlaut: 2011-06-21 05:26:11 pm

2011-06-21 05:24:18 pm

No, we just need to know some factors which put a game at risk of RPG. If we wanted to, we could post a bunch of polls asking people to classify games as RPG or not, then do a multivariate regression based on which risk factors make a game more or less likely to be identified as an RPG.

In no particular order, I've got:
Customizable character abilities
Customizable character equipment
Unique main character
Unique allied characters (maybe also number of unique characters? 1, 2-3, 10+, etc.?)
Unique character abilities
Experience-based leveling for characters
Experience-based leveling for items/equipment
Stat advancement via character leveling
Stat advancement via equipment
Additional gameplay mechanics via character leveling
Additional gameplay mechanics via equipment
Realtime combat
Simultaneous turn-based combat
Unit-level turn-based combat
Side-level turn-based combat
Player control of allied units
Mixed player/AI control of allied units
AI control of allied units
Temporary stat boosts
Multiple game paths
Multiple endings
First person perspective
3rd person perspective
Sci-Fi setting
Fantasy setting
Contemporary setting
Historical setting

What other characteristics of video games can we come up with?

If we can come up with like 50 things video games can have in them, and a representative list of video games, we can see whether the games fit our risk factors or not, then ask people whether they think the games are RPGs or not. Voila, data.

So on the one hand, we need a list of characteristics. On the other, we need a list of games. We could grab a few top 100 games lists, or, if we're worried that RPGs or some other genre are underrepresented, grab several genre-based top lists? We can't really just copy-paste GameFAQs' genre lists, since that sort of begs the question, and coming up with a list ourselves without rules for selecting games is just begging for trouble.

No, we just need to know some factors which put a game at risk of RPG. If we wanted to, we could post a bunch of polls asking people to classify games as RPG or not, then do a multivariate regression based on which risk factors make a game more or less likely to be identified as an RPG.

In no particular order, I've got:
Customizable character abilities
Customizable character equipment
Unique main character
Unique allied characters (maybe also number of unique characters? 1, 2-3, 10+, etc.?)
Unique character abilities
Experience-based leveling for characters
Experience-based leveling for items/equipment
Stat advancement via character leveling
Stat advancement via equipment
Additional gameplay mechanics via character leveling
Additional gameplay mechanics via equipment
Realtime combat
Simultaneous turn-based combat
Unit-level turn-based combat
Side-level turn-based combat
Player control of allied units
Mixed player/AI control of allied units
AI control of allied units
Temporary stat boosts
Multiple game paths
Multiple endings
First person perspective
3rd person perspective
Sci-Fi setting
Fantasy setting
Contemporary setting
Historical setting

What other characteristics of video games can we come up with?

If we can come up with like 50 things video games can have in them, and a representative list of video games, we can see whether the games fit our risk factors or not, then ask people whether they think the games are RPGs or not. Voila, data.

So on the one hand, we need a list of characteristics. On the other, we need a list of games. We could grab a few top 100 games lists, or, if we're worried that RPGs or some other genre are underrepresented, grab several genre-based top lists? We can't really just copy-paste GameFAQs' genre lists, since that sort of begs the question, and coming up with a list ourselves without rules for selecting games is just begging for trouble.

grndino

2011-06-21 06:02:09 pm

lol, that's a big list

if you're only trying to find out what people call an rpg, i'll tell you. it's basically anything. some games aren't treated like rpgs, but that's because there's some missing link, some future game in their exact genre that decided to represent health with a number instead of a bar.

Schwaumlaut

2011-06-21 06:13:40 pm

Ah, HP! How could I forget?

Numerically represented HP
Visually represented HP (e.g. health bar in Bioshock)
No representation of HP (but still tracks a hidden number)
No HP system (Bushido Blade, Gradius, Mario Bros)
Numerically represented MP
Visually represented MP (e.g. Eve bar in Bioshock)
No representation of MP (but still tracks a hidden number)
No MP system
Tracks common weapon ammunition
Tracks special weapon ammunition
Player controlled characters with supernatural abilities

What else do we have?