What do you think makes a Eastern RPG enjoyable to speedrun?

Edit history:

Asvarduil: 2015-01-21 03:02:21 pm

2015-01-21 02:58:11 pm

Hey guys!

I've done a little speedrunning on Dragon Quest I, and I really enjoyed it. I'm also a one-man indie developer who's written a couple of short games, though, and my current project is a short Eastern RPG, Sara the Shieldmage. For those curious, you can play a thin-slice of the game, which has all of the basics and a single quest. You can catch my bi-weekly dev streams on Twitch every other Sunday. The obligatory plugs aren't the point, though.

As someone writing an Eastern RPG, and also as someone who speedruns a Eastern RPG, I'm sure it only makes a little sense that I'm curious about what features of a RPG that people enjoy the most when speedrunning. Some that occur to me naturally are:

1. Skippable dialogue (it's faster! Save the frames!)
2. Interesting battles
3. Great music

In your opinion, what are things someone writing an Eastern RPG would want to have in mind specifically for the speedrunning community?

Note: Eastern RPG includes JRPGs like the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest series. Given I live in America, I'm not exactly creating a JRPG, but I am generally writing a project with most of the conventions thereof. Western RPGs are generally considered a different RPG genre, due to the consequences of a freely customizable, single player character, as opposed to a party of less-customizable characters.

Thread title:

Hey guys!

I've done a little speedrunning on Dragon Quest I, and I really enjoyed it.  I'm also a one-man indie developer who's written a couple of short games, though, and my current project is a short Eastern RPG, [i]Sara the Shieldmage[/i].  For those curious, [url=http://asvarduil.github.io/Sara-The-Shieldmage]you can play a thin-slice of the game[/url], which has all of the basics and a single quest.  You can catch my bi-weekly dev streams on [url=http://www.twitch.tv/asvarduil]Twitch[/url] every other Sunday.  The obligatory plugs aren't the point, though.

As someone writing an Eastern RPG, and also as someone who speedruns a Eastern RPG, I'm sure it only makes a little sense that I'm curious about what features of a RPG that people enjoy the most when speedrunning.  Some that occur to me naturally are:

1. Skippable dialogue (it's faster!  Save the frames!)
2. Interesting battles
3. Great music

In your opinion, what are things someone writing an Eastern RPG would want to have in mind specifically for the speedrunning community?

[i]Note: Eastern RPG includes JRPGs like the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest series.  Given I live in America, I'm not exactly creating a JRPG, but I am generally writing a project with most of the conventions thereof.  Western RPGs are generally considered a different RPG genre, due to the consequences of a freely customizable, single player character, as opposed to a party of less-customizable characters.[/i]

Naegleria

(user is banned)

2015-01-21 03:35:27 pm

Everything thats in Secret of Evermore any%

Nothing that is in Final Fantasy X-2 100%

Drifting Skies

Edit history:

Drifting Skies: 2015-01-21 04:01:56 pm

2015-01-21 04:00:51 pm

steak Steak STEAK!!!

So, I am a fan of speedrunning and a fan of JRPG's on their own, and I'm getting into speedrunning JPRG's, so here's what I'm looking for based on my experiences as a new speedrunner and a longtime casual player.

1) Please don't have long, boring fetch-quests. No one likes going around from point A to B as some NPC's delivery boy. If the item you have to fetch is also a random enemy drop, then may Satan claim your soul.

2) We also don't like being forced to spend countless hours grinding for EXP. I think Wild Arms 3, as an example, did an excellent job with this on two fronts. First, if you know where the hidden Migrant Seals are, you don't even have to really get into encounters, and the bosses give enough experience (especially with Lucky Cards) that you really can get away with a single-digit number of random battles through the entire game, excluding random back-attacks and danger battles. Money too. While I love Legend of Legaia as a game, having so little money and EXP without tons of grinding or slot machine abuse does detract from the fun of the game.

3) Please make sure cutscenes are skippable, especially if they are right before a boss battle. As both a casual player and a speedrunner, if your game is bad, we don't want to be forced to watch the cutscene 50 times before a particularly nasty boss. If it's great, we've probably watched it 50 times anyway because we like the game, and we still want the option to not have to re-watch the same cutscene again

4) Re-read that last one, because it's really that important.

5) I agree with the music thing. It's what separates marginal and good games from the great ones.

6) It's rather boring if there's one battle setup that dominates all others. Make sure that the battle mechanics both are easy enough to use but reward mastery of the intricacies.

7) Don't get too carried away with RNG and critical hits. We don't want to lose an X-hour run because the final boss usually does 250-300 damage but every once in awhile does 999. Especially if it's something like a 1/256 chance. That just feels bad.

That's my advice.

So, I am a fan of speedrunning and a fan of JRPG's on their own, and I'm getting into speedrunning JPRG's, so here's what I'm looking for based on my experiences as a new speedrunner and a longtime casual player.

1) Please don't have long, boring fetch-quests.  No one likes going around from point A to B as some NPC's delivery boy.  If the item you have to fetch is also a random enemy drop, then may Satan claim your soul.

2) We also don't like being forced to spend countless hours grinding for EXP.  I think Wild Arms 3, as an example, did an excellent job with this on two fronts.  First, if you know where the hidden Migrant Seals are, you don't even have to really get into encounters, and the bosses give enough experience (especially with Lucky Cards) that you really can get away with a single-digit number of random battles through the entire game, excluding random back-attacks and danger battles.  Money too.  While I love Legend of Legaia as a game, having so little money and EXP without tons of grinding or slot machine abuse does detract from the fun of the game.

3) Please make sure cutscenes are skippable, especially if they are right before a boss battle.  As both a casual player and a speedrunner, if your game is bad, we don't want to be forced to watch the cutscene 50 times before a particularly nasty boss.  If it's great, we've probably watched it 50 times anyway because we like the game, and we still want the option to not have to re-watch the same cutscene again

4) Re-read that last one, because it's really that important.

5) I agree with the music thing.  It's what separates marginal and good games from the great ones.

6) It's rather boring if there's one battle setup that dominates all others.  Make sure that the battle mechanics both are easy enough to use but reward mastery of the intricacies.

7) Don't get too carried away with RNG and critical hits.  We don't want to lose an X-hour run because the final boss usually does 250-300 damage but every once in awhile does 999.  Especially if it's something like a 1/256 chance.  That just feels bad.

That's my advice.

Melodia

2015-01-22 12:02:19 am

Obviously stuff like skipable curscenes and fast walking speed are a big thing. Music shouldn't really be consider in this sense as it's an aesthetic one that doesn't really change anything about the run itself.

But there's something to consider if you're going to potentially design an RPG around speedrun potential -- being able to get really powerful quickly through optimal use of game mechanics. I think Final Fantasy almost consistently nails the issue -- even beyond what speed runs do, just look at various challenge FAQs, especially for FFVI, VII and X. Exploiting boss weaknesses, stacking equip bonuses, getting that ONE item that's perfect for the situation from an out of the way chest, etc etc. It's almost eerie how well things just HAPPEN to work sometimes.

The above post though has great advice as well, especially on the issue of damage ranges. Again, if you're designing it around speed run potential, make sure there's a way for the player to counter such things, or for instance, again going from FF games, some of the final bosses have attacks that reduce HP down to minimal but will never kill them. THAT is a great solution for a huge attack). Maybe a re-raise spell, or a status that will render it less deadly/pointless, or whatever, as long as one can prepare.

RNG is fine. But -- from a speed running point of view -- if you can find a way for it to ALWAYS be the player's fault that they lose (because they don't know what to do, or executed it wrong), then the perfect balence will be had.

Obviously stuff like skipable curscenes and fast walking speed are a big thing. Music shouldn't really be consider in this sense as it's an aesthetic one that doesn't really change anything about the run itself.

But there's something to consider if you're going to potentially design an RPG around speedrun potential -- being able to get really powerful quickly through optimal use of game mechanics. I think Final Fantasy almost consistently nails the issue -- even beyond what speed runs do, just look at various challenge FAQs, especially for FFVI, VII and X. Exploiting boss weaknesses, stacking equip bonuses, getting that ONE item that's perfect for the situation from an out of the way chest, etc etc. It's almost eerie how well things just HAPPEN to work sometimes.

The above post though has great advice as well, especially on the issue of damage ranges. Again, if you're designing it around speed run potential, make sure there's a way for the player to counter such things, or for instance, again going from FF games, some of the final bosses have attacks that reduce HP down to minimal but will never kill them. THAT is a great solution for a huge attack). Maybe a re-raise spell, or a status that will render it less deadly/pointless, or whatever, as long as one can prepare.

RNG is fine. But -- from a speed running point of view -- if you can find a way for it to ALWAYS be the player's fault that they lose (because they don't know what to do, or executed it wrong), then the perfect balence will be had.

Alko

2015-01-22 03:56:55 am

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

I love FFIX both as a casual game and as a speedrunning game, and that has a few reasons, most of which were already touched:

-> Great music. It's just so~ much more fun if I hear some great stuff while playing.
--> Add variety to your music! Everybody loves the You're Not Alone part, because that is that one single instance when that great song is played.

-> If your game turnes out to be long, then it would be great, if there is a kind of bathroom-break cutscene somewhere in the middle. (Note that FFIX didn't do this right: The bathroom-break cutscene part is only something like an hour in)
-> Wihle skipping cutscenes is great from a speedrunner's point of view, it renders the above point moot. Plus I personally would find it a shame if I never got to see Kuja flying on his white dragon and finding a scratch of blood on his forehead … yeah, likely ignore this part ^^

-> MAKE! A! GREAT! STORY! A game just becomes so much more enjoyable if the story is great. As in: Has depth, has character development, has unexpected twists, doesn't have clear good and evil characters etc. Add comic relief in small, yet agreeable amounts.

-> While it's good to have powerful moves, stear clear from that one overpowered move that will annihilate everything. I much prefer diverse strategies for every boss; some of them can be surprising. Add the obligatory undead boss for lols Wink

-> Thinking about it, the Tower/Orihalcon thing is great: Two near final weapons for one character. It's not clear which one is stronger. You get one on your way anyway, picking up the second costs ~ 1 s, but it's not clear which is stronger (unless the route has changed since I had time to watch a run). Creates an excellent debating point plus bid war potential at marathons.

-> Piggybacking off the last point: Stuff that can be turned into fun marathon bid wars is great!

-> Minigames! Short, diverse things that give you a break from the usual walking/talking/fighting. They can add extra pressure if they're right behind a boss fight (think Hedgehog pie minigame in FFIX).

I think that's all for now … probably forgot something, but I hope you got the picture ^^

I love FFIX both as a casual game and as a speedrunning game, and that has a few reasons, most of which were already touched:

-> Great music. It's just so~ much more fun if I hear some great stuff while playing.
--> Add variety to your music! Everybody loves the You're Not Alone part, because that is that one single instance when that great song is played.

-> If your game turnes out to be long, then it would be great, if there is a kind of bathroom-break cutscene somewhere in the middle. (Note that FFIX didn't do this right: The bathroom-break cutscene part is only something like an hour in)
-> Wihle skipping cutscenes is great from a speedrunner's point of view, it renders the above point moot. Plus I personally would find it a shame if I never got to see Kuja flying on his white dragon and finding a scratch of blood on his forehead … yeah, likely ignore this part ^^

-> MAKE! A! GREAT! STORY! A game just becomes so much more enjoyable if the story is great. As in: Has depth, has character development, has unexpected twists, doesn't have clear good and evil characters etc. Add comic relief in small, yet agreeable amounts.

-> While it's good to have powerful moves, stear clear from that one overpowered move that will annihilate everything. I much prefer diverse strategies for every boss; some of them can be surprising. Add the obligatory undead boss for lols ;)
-> Thinking about it, the Tower/Orihalcon thing is great: Two near final weapons for one character. It's not clear which one is stronger. You get one on your way anyway, picking up the second costs ~ 1 s, but it's not clear which is stronger (unless the route has changed since I had time to watch a run). Creates an excellent debating point plus bid war potential at marathons.

-> Piggybacking off the last point: Stuff that can be turned into fun marathon bid wars is great!

-> Minigames! Short, diverse things that give you a break from the usual walking/talking/fighting. They can add extra pressure if they're right behind a boss fight (think Hedgehog pie minigame in FFIX).

I think that's all for now … probably forgot something, but I hope you got the picture ^^

Hsanrb

2015-01-22 10:09:05 am

First off, don't worry about the speedrun focus first, make a great game. Great games deserve great speedruns... if your game is meh... the speedrun will likely be just as meh

Now points to an eastern RPG?

A) Give enemies that skew all the loot to xp/gold... think metal slimes and goldmen. Don't have to be prevelant, but rpgs where theres one mob to bag whatever you need if you know where to look is pretty good. I don't really mind having to grind level X before I can fight boss Y... but if theres a section (think metal slime grotto from DQMJ) of an area where they can drop that speeds it up were all good for.

B) If your gonna speedrun it, skippable cutscenes and dialog are great... but maybe make a TA or speedrun mode that drops it all out. Can always do the "Want to watch a cutscene again?" as a precursor to it after you've seen it (like store the flags in a main system file indepedent of the actual save file)

C) Don't make a Game over a run ender. I liked DQ because even in a speedrun, if you happen to die you'd redo the dungeon and unless had a ton of gold for an item in the future was never a reset. I can only think of one DQ speedrun in a race where you'd reset over a death (DQ5)

D) If your going to do a quest system, either be strict about it, or allow people to do things out of order or skip the whole "Go get me a crab" if you have a crab, get it first and skip the whole blog about why you need a crab for your seafood metalic chef competition. haha

E) Try to avoid OP skills/classes/items. I've always hated present FF speedruns because it seems to have one or two things you do that stack the odds in your favor. Doing 9999 dmg is something I despise on both sides of the spectrum. Its why I like most DQ speedruns, generally the boss battles have some way to give the boss a way to ruin a run, but doesn't ruin the fun of the long haul. I've seen a DQ race where everyone died to Zoma... final boss went 10-4 in DQ3... and it wasn't depressing for the commentators about it.

First off, don't worry about the speedrun focus first, make a great game. Great games deserve great speedruns... if your game is meh... the speedrun will likely be just as meh

Now points to an eastern RPG?

A) Give enemies that skew all the loot to xp/gold... think metal slimes and goldmen. Don't have to be prevelant, but rpgs where theres one mob to bag whatever you need if you know where to look is pretty good. I don't really mind having to grind level X before I can fight boss Y... but if theres a section (think metal slime grotto from DQMJ) of an area where they can drop that speeds it up were all good for.

B) If your gonna speedrun it, skippable cutscenes and dialog are great... but maybe make a TA or speedrun mode that drops it all out. Can always do the "Want to watch a cutscene again?" as a precursor to it after you've seen it (like store the flags in a main system file indepedent of the actual save file)

C) Don't make a Game over a run ender. I liked DQ because even in a speedrun, if you happen to die you'd redo the dungeon and unless had a ton of gold for an item in the future was never a reset. I can only think of one DQ speedrun in a race where you'd reset over a death (DQ5)

D) If your going to do a quest system, either be strict about it, or allow people to do things out of order or skip the whole "Go get me a crab" if you have a crab, get it first and skip the whole blog about why you need a crab for your seafood metalic chef competition. haha

E) Try to avoid OP skills/classes/items. I've always hated present FF speedruns because it seems to have one or two things you do that stack the odds in your favor. Doing 9999 dmg is something I despise on both sides of the spectrum. Its why I like most DQ speedruns, generally the boss battles have some way to give the boss a way to ruin a run, but doesn't ruin the fun of the long haul. I've seen a DQ race where everyone died to Zoma... final boss went 10-4 in DQ3... and it wasn't depressing for the commentators about it.

Asvarduil

2015-01-22 11:41:12 am

@Hsanrb - While most comments I'm just reading and taking note of, I like the idea of a "Time Attack" mode. That will allow me to do exactly as you said - focus first on making a great eastern RPG - but to still have something helpful to the speedrunning community. I can see ways it would be easy to include, too. That was a great suggestion, thanks!

Melodia

2015-01-22 01:28:42 pm

The game over thing is a good point -- doing it like FFXIII would be fantastic, where if you lose you immediately can restart the battle. That also is much nicer in casual play because "oops bad RNG/stupid mistake caused you to lose a half hour" is NEVER fun. I'm not much a fan of DQ's method of "shove you back to the save and lose half your gold" and pretty much always reset when I die in a DQ game.

The quest thing is a good point as well. Not an RPG but for instance Shantae and the Pirate's Curse allows you to collect things and just give them right away, considerably cutting down on the time (by contrast, something like Lightning Returns has a lot of items or enemies you need to kill that won't even show up until you accept the quest).

Also, one important thing I forgot to mention above -- NO RANDOM BATTLES. They are a pointless dinosaur mechanic and again, for speedrunners they are especially annoying. Yes some people inexplicedly like them, but having all enemies visible on screen allows exploration (in casual play) and means people know at least basically what to expect (for speedrunning).

The game over thing is a good point -- doing it like FFXIII would be fantastic, where  if you lose you immediately can restart the battle. That also is much nicer in casual play because "oops bad RNG/stupid mistake caused you to lose a half hour" is NEVER fun. I'm not much a fan of DQ's method of "shove you back to the save and lose half your gold" and pretty much always reset when I die in a DQ game.

The quest thing is a good point as well. Not an RPG but for instance Shantae and the Pirate's Curse allows you to collect things and just give them right away, considerably cutting down on the time (by contrast, something like Lightning Returns has a lot of items or enemies you need to kill that won't even show up until you accept the quest).

Also, one important thing I forgot to mention above -- NO RANDOM BATTLES. They are a pointless dinosaur mechanic and again, for speedrunners they are especially annoying. Yes some people inexplicedly like them, but having all enemies visible on screen allows exploration (in casual play) and means people know at least basically what to expect (for speedrunning).

Drifting Skies

2015-01-22 01:55:43 pm

steak Steak STEAK!!!

Quote from Asvarduil:

@Hsanrb - While most comments I'm just reading and taking note of, I like the idea of a "Time Attack" mode. That will allow me to do exactly as you said - focus first on making a great eastern RPG - but to still have something helpful to the speedrunning community. I can see ways it would be easy to include, too. That was a great suggestion, thanks!

One other thing you can do is to give some sort of reward for speedrunning the game. As I understand, Final Fantasy IX has a feature where getting to the final dungeon quickly allows you to obtain the best weapon in the game. I don't think you want to force speedrunning on the player because it will restrict your audience, but giving some sort of shoutout or reward to speedrunners in this regard would strike a balance that allows you to reach a broad audience while also providing internal challenges and rewards for mastering the game and beating it as quickly as possible.

Asvarduil

2015-01-22 03:25:49 pm

@Drifiting Skies - I remember seeing Puwexil's FF9 run where he went for the Excalibur II (with 30 minutes to spare, to boot.) I think a benchmark prize like that's another great idea as well. Great suggestion not just for me, but any indie who lurks about in here.

Alko

2015-01-25 01:31:02 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Only 30 mins to spare? It should have been more like three hours to spare …

AlecK47

2015-01-28 08:02:02 pm

In no particular order:

Music - Because (insert any of a dozen+ composers for JRPG's) work is amazing!

Battle mechanics - What you do in a game and how you do it is part of the fun. Even the basics can be really fun, and many games have other weird abilities and mechanics (and glitches) that you can play with for hours. There's quite a bit of variety to be found in the genre as a whole, as well.

Characters/Story - Not only are there a lot of JRPG's with memorable characters and engaging storylines, but my inner anthropologist is also intrigued by how another culture goes about presenting the subject matter of its games (and other media, but I play more games than anything else). This point may not explain why I enjoy playing, say, FFXIII, but not every game can have everything. Wink

Things that benefit speedruns - SKIPPABLE CUTSCENES!!!!! There are a lot of other things that certain games do that help (immediate retries have already been mentioned), but the ability to skip cutscenes is sooooooooo nice for a speedrunner. For instance, notable FFXIII runners have done runs without skipping cutscenes and got times around 12-13 hours (the normal RTA is around 5:30:00). For FFXII, the game I run, it's even worse; the only time I've heard of without skipping cutscenes is over 20 hours by a Japanese runner whose name I don't recall (normal RTA's are around 7 hours).

In no particular order:

Music - Because (insert any of a dozen+ composers for JRPG's) work is amazing!

Battle mechanics - What you do in a game and how you do it is part of the fun.  Even the basics can be really fun, and many games have other weird abilities and mechanics (and glitches) that you can play with for hours.  There's quite a bit of variety to be found in the genre as a whole, as well.

Characters/Story - Not only are there a lot of JRPG's with memorable characters and engaging storylines, but my inner anthropologist is also intrigued by how another culture goes about presenting the subject matter of its games (and other media, but I play more games than anything else).  This point may not explain why I enjoy playing, say, FFXIII, but not every game can have everything. ;)

Things that benefit speedruns - SKIPPABLE CUTSCENES!!!!!  There are a lot of other things that certain games do that help (immediate retries have already been mentioned), but the ability to skip cutscenes is sooooooooo nice for a speedrunner.  For instance, notable FFXIII runners have done runs without skipping cutscenes and got times around 12-13 hours (the normal RTA is around 5:30:00).  For FFXII, the game I run, it's even worse; the only time I've heard of without skipping cutscenes is over 20 hours by a Japanese runner whose name I don't recall (normal RTA's are around 7 hours).

Copilot

2015-01-30 08:54:56 am

Ruling the cosmos!

I can say that the biggest thing that will make me fall in love with any RPG is a lot of customization. Being able to control everything about my characters, what they do, how they work, just being able to come up with my own strategies that I can go in depth on is the best thing an RPG can do for me. And, of course, that makes routing them for speedruns way more fun.

qITIp

2015-02-16 12:35:33 pm

Have you considered that something for a speed runner might not be enticing to a watcher?
For a runner, viewers is part of the battle

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2015-02-16 09:07:02 pm

2015-02-16 09:06:16 pm

Only part of the battle, if it's even a consideration. I think I can safely say that for most of us viewers are nice, but really not the goal. Doing other things that might be slower just for fun (both theirs and the viewers') is something a lot of runners do, especially for things like "X follower specials," but that's not exactly a serious speedrunning thing.

But even for something like skipping cutscenes, which viewers may want to watch, it's worth noting that speedrunning is very different from lets plays because of repetition alone. If for each attempt you have to watch a cutscene, that cutscene will almost always get old fast, for the viewers as well as the runner.

Melodia

2015-02-17 12:52:41 am

Though if you're designing it around speedrunning speficially there's something to be said about having one or two spots where you can let the game run for a couple minutes to allow for bathroom breaks.

One good way to impliment this without a "why can you skip everything but THIS cutscene" type thing (*cough* FFXII *cough*) might be, for instance, special attacks where you have an option to turn off/extremely cut down their animation but they will still show in full the first time.