We've removed TSA's runs from the site [locked]

2011-03-29 11:03:12 am

1-Up!

This would just be another deterrent to submission. We operate on the Honor System and it's worked out pretty well for a long time.

Poxnor

2011-03-29 11:20:47 am

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Quote from Angelmark:

Would it be too much to ask for video proof that SS runs are in fact done in one sitting?

I was under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that SS runs don't have to be done in one sitting; they just have to be done without reloading. For example, if an SS run is long enough that it needs to be split across multiple DVDs, it was my understanding that there is no rule against taking a break for dinner during one of the DVD changes?

Sir VG

2011-03-29 11:23:00 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote from Poxnor:

Quote from Angelmark:

Would it be too much to ask for video proof that SS runs are in fact done in one sitting?

I was under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that SS runs don't have to be done in one sitting; they just have to be done without reloading. For example, if an SS run is long enough that it needs to be split across multiple DVDs, it was my understanding that there is no rule against taking a break for dinner during one of the DVD changes?

Right, as long as it doesn't affect the in-game timer. For instance, Legend of Mana's in-game timer keeps going even when the game is paused. It's stupid, but it happens. Though that's typically in the minority of cases.

ridd3r.

2011-03-29 11:37:43 am

we have lift off

I find it hard to believe you didn't watch your run through after completion and go hang on a minute that's not the run I just did; any Speedrunner knows their run inside out. Assuming you really didn't know, the problem is you didn't come forward as soon as you realised. It stopped being an honest mistake the second you decided to do nothing, so it's just as bad as cheating a run.

romscout

2011-03-29 11:49:54 am

that Metroidvania guy

Quote from Angelmark:

Would it be too much to ask for video proof that SS runs are in fact done in one sitting?

Dunno, seems pretty reasonable to me.

I don't think we need to go that far. In general we are getting better and better at finding cheaters here (see not only TSA, but also the LegendOfEvil incident, though that was a lot easier). I think if you were to add anything to the submission rules, it should be that if you encode the run yourself, you not only should send the encode but also the original files/vobs or whatever just in case there is suspicion and a need to check it out. Granted, a person could still do the splicing thing if they really wanted to, but it would be a lot more convoluted and more likely to have an obvious error that gives it away. However, I don't think we even need to do that.

Especially in the case of mainstream series that have been around a while and have games that are popular to run, the TAS and speed run communities are becoming a lot more connected and lots of runners are learning exactly how every part of a game works before they serious runs on it. This alone makes it way more likely for a verifier to catch anything fishy about a run, even if it seems very minor and unexpected to be caught. The honor code I think has worked pretty well to this point, and it's very rare that we even have cheating issues to deal with. The case of having a cheater go uncaught for many years, as far as I know, is just one case over the course of 7ish years. Granted, there might be a few runs here and there that didn't get caught, but when it comes to popular series on the site, you'd have to make a pretty big effort to cheat and get away with it, especially when so many runners of these games are streaming their attempts and people in general know what goes into a run and what is/isn't doable during attempts.

[quote="Angelmark"]Would it be too much to ask for video proof that SS runs are in fact done in one sitting?

Dunno, seems pretty reasonable to me.[/quote]
I don't think we need to go that far. In general we are getting better and better at finding cheaters here (see not only TSA, but also the LegendOfEvil incident, though that was a lot easier). I think if you were to add anything to the submission rules, it should be that if you encode the run yourself, you not only should send the encode but also the original files/vobs or whatever just in case there is suspicion and a need to check it out. Granted, a person could still do the splicing thing if they really wanted to, but it would be a lot more convoluted and more likely to have an obvious error that gives it away. However, I don't think we even need to do that.

Especially in the case of mainstream series that have been around a while and have games that are popular to run, the TAS and speed run communities are becoming a lot more connected and lots of runners are learning exactly how every part of a game works before they serious runs on it. This alone makes it way more likely for a verifier to catch anything fishy about a run, even if it seems very minor and unexpected to be caught. The honor code I think has worked pretty well to this point, and it's very rare that we even have cheating issues to deal with. The case of having a cheater go uncaught for many years, as far as I know, is just one case over the course of 7ish years. Granted, there might be a few runs here and there that didn't get caught, but when it comes to popular series on the site, you'd have to make a pretty big effort to cheat and get away with it, especially when so many runners of these games are streaming their attempts and people in general know what goes into a run and what is/isn't doable during attempts.

ZenicReverie

2011-03-29 12:26:15 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

The fact that this honest mistake happened in 4 different runs is odd.

Quote from ridd3r.:

I find it hard to believe you didn't watch your run through after completion and go hang on a minute that's not the run I just did; any Speedrunner knows their run inside out.

I watch back a run after I've completed it. Sometimes I remember messing up in a spot, yet upon looking for that spot again, it's different from what I remember. Probably because I was remembering a previous attempt. Everything before watching the final product kind of just blends together for me, so I can see how someone could watch a run done after 20 or so attempts and not know exactly how it went.

TSA

Edit history:

TSA: 2011-03-29 01:07:21 pm

2011-03-29 01:06:55 pm

Retired

Again, while I still do not believe it is fair I am being labeled a cheater since what I did was not to deceive nor gain a strategic advantage, I do fully acknowledge I'm at fault for what has transpired. I retired and moved on, and anyone can continue to say I' tarnished or my "fame" was from "lies" - that's you're opinion and right, but I really think those people need to grow up and drop whatever vendetta they had or have against me. I'm only here because I've been called out as a cheater, otherwise I wouldn't have even bothered to comment if my runs were simply removed and publicly stated they were for not complying with current SDA protocols and standards. You can believe what you want, but I never really cared for any 'fame" that came my way from speedruns, and they were never that big a part of my life. And even though I was an arrogant jerk back then, my reasons for getting into this were purely because I loved the Zelda series and loved this community, and I still have respect for the latter. I know somebody asked why I didn't stick to VHS, and honestly, my one regret is I didn't stick to it. If I did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm still going to insist the method of me recording some of my runs was public knowledge and within SDA rules at the time, inconsistencies and my mistakes aside. However, I want to apologize to the current SDA staff for putting them through this awkward situation, and for not speaking up sooner. And to anyone else who actually cared or enjoyed the runs, I apologize if you felt betrayed. All I can ask is for forgiveness and understanding, and I hope this doesn't deter others from continuing to do runs and such.

Again, while I still do not believe it is fair I am being labeled a cheater since what I did was not to deceive nor gain a strategic advantage, I do fully acknowledge I'm at fault for what has transpired.  I retired and moved on, and anyone can continue to say I' tarnished or my "fame" was from "lies" - that's you're opinion and right, but I really think those people need to grow up and drop whatever vendetta they had or have against me.  I'm only here because I've been called out as a cheater, otherwise I wouldn't have even bothered to comment if my runs were simply removed and publicly stated they were for not complying with current SDA protocols and standards.  You can believe what you want, but I never really cared for any 'fame" that came my way from speedruns, and they were never that big a part of my life. And even though I was an arrogant jerk back then, my reasons for getting into this were purely because I loved the Zelda series and loved this community, and I still have respect for the latter.  I know somebody asked why I didn't stick to VHS, and honestly, my one regret is I didn't stick to it.  If I did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm still going to insist the method of me recording some of my runs was public knowledge and within SDA rules at the time, inconsistencies and my mistakes aside.  However, I want to apologize to the current SDA staff for putting them through this awkward situation, and for not speaking up sooner.  And to anyone else who actually cared or enjoyed the runs, I apologize if you felt betrayed.  All I can ask is for forgiveness and understanding, and I hope this doesn't deter others from continuing to do runs and such.

Riskbreaker Y

2011-03-29 02:03:51 pm

berserker status

Quote from arkarian:

lol who gives a fuck about tsa

This. You sir, are a hero.

Kinda hard to own up to the truth when people are dry humping your leg right? I love hearing excuses from disgraced people.

Tiki

2011-03-29 02:08:40 pm

I don't even know what the fuck this is

POO POO

Rakuen

2011-03-29 02:24:57 pm

Weegee Time

Quote from TSA:

I'm still going to insist the method of me recording some of my runs was public knowledge and within SDA rules at the time, inconsistencies and my mistakes aside.

Forum search disagrees, and I imagine it wasn't mentioned in any run comments outside of the old OoT. Otherwise people would have read it and known it already. If it's public knowledge, it's only "public" among people involved in a private chat or private messages.

Worn_Traveler

Edit history:

Worn_Traveler: 2011-03-29 02:50:56 pm

2011-03-29 02:50:11 pm

Formerly known as Skullboy

People tend to not read a lot in the forums (check some of the console boards where the runner is asked the same question three or four times by different people in one thread). Also, I'm not sure how many people were around SDA when TSA's runs came out. Most of his runs were up or obsoleted soon before I found the site. Anyways I looked at his runs up at Archive.org and only two of them (both being OOT) mentioned cutting. I might have missed something though.

I do not know a lot about RNG and Zelda running so I cannot comment on that but the man has admitted to making a mistake and he has apologized for it. He has been put in the same category as the runners who have flagrantly abused the system and the runners who have tried to pass off TAS's as runs. He is defending his character, not his runs. What more do you want from him? Instead of gang-assaulting TSA shouldn't we be trying to work this out for the betterment of the community? Just because you may not like a runner or their runs does not necessitate some of the crap I've seen in this thread. I do not feel betrayed and I am thankful that there are still people here who can own up to mistakes.

I suggest any other issues or controversies associated with the cheated runs should be handled in private by TSA and the current Admins should they choose to do so. This thread is degenerating into something beyond the stated issues at the beginning.

People tend to not read a lot in the forums (check some of the console boards where the runner is asked the same question  three or four times by different people  in one thread). Also, I'm not sure how many people were around SDA when TSA's runs came out. Most of his runs were up or obsoleted soon before I found the site. Anyways I looked at his runs up at Archive.org and only two of them (both being OOT) mentioned cutting. I might have missed something though.

I do not know a lot about RNG and Zelda running so I cannot comment on that but the man has admitted to making a mistake and he has apologized for it. He has been put in the same category as the runners who have flagrantly abused the system and the runners who have tried to pass off TAS's as runs. He is defending  his character, not his runs. What more do you want from him?  Instead of gang-assaulting TSA shouldn't we be trying to work this out for the betterment of the community? Just because you may not like a runner or their runs does not necessitate some of the crap I've seen in this thread. I do not feel betrayed and I am thankful that there are still people here who can own up to mistakes.

I suggest any other issues or controversies associated with the cheated runs should be handled in private by TSA and the current Admins should they choose to do so. This thread is degenerating into something beyond the stated issues at the beginning.

slowbro

2011-03-29 02:59:44 pm

When I said this is disappointing, I didn't mean I was disappointed in TSA. Apart from the fact he didn't come forward sooner, I think he has handled this situation as well as he could, especially considering all the unfriendly things being thrown at him.

I still believe TSA made honest mistakes, more than likely. I mean it is disappointing that TSA's work will no longer be featured on SDA. (necessary but still disappointing)

TSA

Edit history:

TSA: 2011-03-29 04:03:11 pm

2011-03-29 04:02:44 pm

Retired

Quote from Rakuen:

Quote from TSA:

I'm still going to insist the method of me recording some of my runs was public knowledge and within SDA rules at the time, inconsistencies and my mistakes aside.

Forum search disagrees, and I imagine it wasn't mentioned in any run comments outside of the old OoT. Otherwise people would have read it and known it already. If it's public knowledge, it's only "public" among people involved in a private chat or private messages.

It was in the most public of places man, the comments of the run itself, and still readily available to read on Archive.org for those runs. I still get that it wasn't just the manner of the run's capture, but the actual inconsistencies that are the real issue here. I'm not defending my runs - I said I agree they should be removed and all of my other runs removed because I've lost trust and SDA has to abide by rules. I admitted I was an asshole back then and wasn't the best person in the world, but I do not believe I'm a bad person, and I wasn't trying to lie to people to better myself or my position. If anything, this really upsets me and I feel terrible. If I was a pompous ass still, or really cared only about my runs, I would be screaming that this was an injustice or something and demand my runs be put up. I know no matter what I say or even do, some of you will always believe I did this with bad intentions. To those who are of the other school of thought, I wanted to apologize because you deserve at least that much, and to SDA because they're only doing their job. It's nobody else's fault but mine here, not anyone from the old staff or whatever.

I'm gonna say that this will be the last on say on this matter, and if somebody from SDA staff needs me for whatever reason please just contact me. Also, if I'm not welcome here (for posting on the forum purposes only), please let me know as well and I'll stay away, or simply ban my account if you don't trust me to at least respect that. I usually just lurk and comment every now and then.

[quote="Rakuen"][quote="TSA"]I'm still going to insist the method of me recording some of my runs was public knowledge and within SDA rules at the time, inconsistencies and my mistakes aside.[/quote]
Forum search disagrees, and I imagine it wasn't mentioned in any run comments outside of the old OoT.  Otherwise people would have read it and known it already.  If it's public knowledge, it's only "public" among people involved in a private chat or private messages.[/quote]

It was in the most public of places man, the comments of the run itself, and still readily available to read on Archive.org for those runs.  I still get that it wasn't just the manner of the run's capture, but the actual inconsistencies that are the real issue here.  I'm not defending my runs - I said I agree they should be removed and all of my other runs removed because I've lost trust and SDA has to abide by rules.  I admitted I was an asshole back then and wasn't the best person in the world, but I do not believe I'm a bad person, and I wasn't trying to lie to people to better myself or my position.  If anything, this really upsets me and I feel terrible.  If I was a pompous ass still, or really cared only about my runs, I would be screaming that this was an injustice or something and demand my runs be put up.  I know no matter what I say or even do, some of you will always believe I did this with bad intentions.  To those who are of the other school of thought, I wanted to apologize because you deserve at least that much, and to SDA because they're only doing their job.  It's nobody else's fault but mine here, not anyone from the old staff or whatever.

I'm gonna say that this will be the last on say on this matter, and if somebody from SDA staff needs me for whatever reason please just contact me.  Also, if I'm not welcome here (for posting on the forum purposes only), please let me know as well and I'll stay away, or simply ban my account if you don't trust me to at least respect that.  I usually just lurk and comment every now and then.

Rakuen

2011-03-29 04:33:30 pm

Weegee Time

Nah, I'm not saying you're a bad person, you can back up and read posts on the last page. I was just saying if you think it was public knowledge, it really wasn't that public. I looked through all the run comments on archive.org myself as well, and only found mention of it in an OoT video. We're not psychics, you know? I can't know from looking at your LttP run that I should cross-reference with your OoT run to see how you recorded it.

Honestly, you've kept yourself pretty composed despite some really obvious flamebait flying around in this thread, so good on you for that. Best wishes, and see you later.

Obikashi

2011-03-29 06:02:14 pm

Prospected Runner

Quote from TSA:

Quote from Rakuen:

Quote from TSA:

I'm still going to insist the method of me recording some of my runs was public knowledge and within SDA rules at the time, inconsistencies and my mistakes aside.

Forum search disagrees, and I imagine it wasn't mentioned in any run comments outside of the old OoT. Otherwise people would have read it and known it already. If it's public knowledge, it's only "public" among people involved in a private chat or private messages.

It was in the most public of places man, the comments of the run itself, and still readily available to read on Archive.org for those runs. I still get that it wasn't just the manner of the run's capture, but the actual inconsistencies that are the real issue here. I'm not defending my runs - I said I agree they should be removed and all of my other runs removed because I've lost trust and SDA has to abide by rules. I admitted I was an asshole back then and wasn't the best person in the world, but I do not believe I'm a bad person, and I wasn't trying to lie to people to better myself or my position. If anything, this really upsets me and I feel terrible. If I was a pompous ass still, or really cared only about my runs, I would be screaming that this was an injustice or something and demand my runs be put up. I know no matter what I say or even do, some of you will always believe I did this with bad intentions. To those who are of the other school of thought, I wanted to apologize because you deserve at least that much, and to SDA because they're only doing their job. It's nobody else's fault but mine here, not anyone from the old staff or whatever.

I'm gonna say that this will be the last on say on this matter, and if somebody from SDA staff needs me for whatever reason please just contact me. Also, if I'm not welcome here (for posting on the forum purposes only), please let me know as well and I'll stay away, or simply ban my account if you don't trust me to at least respect that. I usually just lurk and comment every now and then.

Id call that end of discussion, its just turning into somewhat of a slagging match now with hearsay and interperetation id just lock the thread

[quote="TSA"][quote="Rakuen"][quote="TSA"]I'm still going to insist the method of me recording some of my runs was public knowledge and within SDA rules at the time, inconsistencies and my mistakes aside.[/quote]
Forum search disagrees, and I imagine it wasn't mentioned in any run comments outside of the old OoT.  Otherwise people would have read it and known it already.  If it's public knowledge, it's only "public" among people involved in a private chat or private messages.[/quote]

It was in the most public of places man, the comments of the run itself, and still readily available to read on Archive.org for those runs.  I still get that it wasn't just the manner of the run's capture, but the actual inconsistencies that are the real issue here.  I'm not defending my runs - I said I agree they should be removed and all of my other runs removed because I've lost trust and SDA has to abide by rules.  I admitted I was an asshole back then and wasn't the best person in the world, but I do not believe I'm a bad person, and I wasn't trying to lie to people to better myself or my position.  If anything, this really upsets me and I feel terrible.  If I was a pompous ass still, or really cared only about my runs, I would be screaming that this was an injustice or something and demand my runs be put up.  I know no matter what I say or even do, some of you will always believe I did this with bad intentions.  To those who are of the other school of thought, I wanted to apologize because you deserve at least that much, and to SDA because they're only doing their job.  It's nobody else's fault but mine here, not anyone from the old staff or whatever.

I'm gonna say that this will be the last on say on this matter, and if somebody from SDA staff needs me for whatever reason please just contact me.  Also, if I'm not welcome here (for posting on the forum purposes only), please let me know as well and I'll stay away, or simply ban my account if you don't trust me to at least respect that.  I usually just lurk and comment every now and then.[/quote]

Id call that end of discussion, its just turning into somewhat of a slagging match now with hearsay and interperetation id just lock the thread

getter77

2011-03-29 06:10:54 pm

100% runs=great to watch

Wow. I've been generally around here for a great long while now, and this is one of the craziest happenings I can recall in quite some time.

CrypticJacknife

2011-03-29 10:53:25 pm

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

Well that was a weak and tactless dying breath if I ever did see one. Oh yeah, and inb4lock Smiley

I suggest anything further would be better discussed between Mods and TSA through PM. Lest there be no 'dry-humping' or 'flamebaiting'.

tomatobob

2011-03-30 04:05:59 am

Quote from Angelmark:

Some people do anything to earn a bit of fame, even if it means faking an accomplishment.

You are posting on a website that posts videos speed runs of video games that is not even confident enough in their quality to call them records. Maaaaaybe not the best place to talk mess about false accomplishments.

ExplodingCabbage

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-03-30 05:55:19 am

2011-03-30 05:54:15 am

Hmm. The idea that, if you were recording multiple runs all in pieces, it would be possible to get the pieces mixed up, seems perfectly plausible to me. Indeed, this has happened to me before in segmented runs, and then when I've come to try and encode them in Anri-Chan I suddenly go 'oh shit, a massive visual discontinuity, this must be the wrong segment' and have to hope that I still have the correct version lying around somewhere and can piece everything back together. If you having your chunk-breaks at transitions, on the other hand, you wouldn't immediately know something was wrong.

Of course, I suppose it's equally possible (and I say this purely on the basis of this thread without any knowledge of Zelda running or TSA's history) that TSA deliberately cheated. I would automatically give the benefit of the doubt and assume it was an honest mistake, but I think you probably lose your entitlement to that if you realise you've accidentally submitted a non-legit run and choose not to come forward.

By the way tomatobob I have absolutely no idea what your post was supposed to mean.

Hmm. The idea that, if you were recording multiple runs all in pieces, it would be possible to get the pieces mixed up, seems perfectly plausible to me. Indeed, this has happened to me before in segmented runs, and then when I've come to try and encode them in Anri-Chan I suddenly go 'oh shit, a massive visual discontinuity, this must be the wrong segment' and have to hope that I still have the correct version lying around somewhere and can piece everything back together. If you having your chunk-breaks at transitions, on the other hand, you wouldn't immediately know something was wrong.

Of course, I suppose it's equally possible (and I say this purely on the basis of this thread without any knowledge of Zelda running or TSA's history) that TSA deliberately cheated. I would automatically give the benefit of the doubt and assume it was an honest mistake, but I think you probably lose your entitlement to that if you realise you've accidentally submitted a non-legit run and choose not to come forward.

By the way tomatobob I have absolutely no idea what your post was supposed to mean.

giganotabehemoth87

Edit history:

giganotabehemoth87: 2011-03-30 06:55:09 am

giganotabehemoth87: 2011-03-30 06:51:07 am

2011-03-30 06:50:15 am

Tomatobob is trolling that's all.

Tbob - It's not that SDA doesn't have confidence in their runs to call them records. Another site deals with that term although no one gives a shit and that's called Twin galaxies. The term 'record' isn't that important yet the vast majority of runs on this site are of no doubt very high quality and most of them are better than that site anyway. But as i say your trolling so, haha I suppose.

BioSpark

2011-03-30 10:35:08 am

tbob's right. sda is not the place to be looking for fame. if you are, then lol.

Angelmark

Edit history:

Angelmark: 2011-03-30 11:27:10 am

2011-03-30 11:23:27 am

The Anomaly

Perhaps fame is a misnomer, but I think you can see what I mean. Getting your run posted on this site is quite possibly the best way to make sure it gets watched by a big crowd.

Carcinogen

2011-03-30 06:13:34 pm

My XBox Live Gamer Zone is set to Pro.

I must be Pro.

Enterim

2011-03-30 06:27:03 pm

Quote from Flip:

This would just be another deterrent to submission. We operate on the Honor System and it's worked out pretty well for a long time.

This. Sure, it's possible to sneak a cheated run by if you're dedicated enough, but what's the point? Speedrunning is still a niche interest and there's no fame or big bucks to be had from it, so I'd give runners the benefit of the doubt. And as the stakes for a run increase, so does the amount of work that goes into verifying it. Incentive-wise, there's really no reason for someone to cheat a run.

tomatobob

2011-03-31 03:48:44 am

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

By the way tomatobob I have absolutely no idea what your post was supposed to mean.

I can post a wacky spliced speed run I want on youtube and slap a sticker on it that swears I didn't cheat and I will have accomplished just as much as if I put in the effort to get a 'legit' run on sda, is what I mean. In fact that would streamline the process immensely.

Either way my grand accomplishment is playing a video game for attention.