Vampire: The Masquerade – Redemption

Edit history:

SDAVerification: 2017-10-31 12:05:48 pm

2017-10-03 08:11:58 am

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet

Vampire: The Masquerade – Redemption () (pc) [Any %] [Segmented]

Decision: Reject

Reason: Overall well played, but more time could come off by adding more segments.

https://queue.speeddemosarchive.com/verificationfiles/2102/

This run will be available for a month. After that these link(s) will no longer work.

Thread title:

SDAVerification

2017-10-03 08:11:59 am

Run Information

Vampire: The Masquerade – Redemption () (pc) [Any %] [Segmented]

Verification Files

http://v.speeddemosarchive.com/vampiremasqueraderedemption-20170923

Please refer to the Verification Guidelines before posting.

Please post your opinions about the run and be certain to conclude your post with a verdict (Accept/Reject). If you wish to remain anonymous, you can also send a pm with your reply to 'sdaverification' (please state clearly in that case which run you have verified). This is not a contest where the majority wins - Each verification will be judged on its content.

ktwo

2017-10-08 01:17:53 pm

I have a couple of questions regarding what's going on in the run.
* At 2:32, you walked towards a section that was pretty far from a straight line of where you should be heading. I can't see anything of interest there. What's the purpose?
* At 9:00, why did you make a second visit to the archbishop?
* Do you have to use stairs when going down? Like, you can't just walk off an edge to descend faster, right?
* Generally speaking, there are many spots where you get stuck on a corner or an enemy etc. How much did you retry each segment to get as fluid motion as possible?

Blackout

2017-10-10 05:01:14 pm

Thanks for the questions. Here are my answers :
- At 2:32, the game is very dark but if you pay attention you can see that i can't make a straight line because the path isn't flat. So the shortest path is the one I use.
- At 9:00, I make a second visit to the archbishop to skip a cinematic. If I stay outside the church, it start and I lose like 20sec.
- In this game stairs is the only way to go up or down. You can't fall so an edge is just like a wall where i can be blocked.
- You're right. Physics in this game is very weird. Sometimes your character is like a cube and get block by other cubes (enemies), sometime he passe smoothly near them. I couldn't find the way the stay smooth with the main character but I retried everytime an enemy has block me, unless it was normal (like if I need to kill him). Generally, I kept the sequences when I was blocked, if the others hardest spot of the sequences runned good.

Feel free if other questions goes too your mind.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2017-10-20 02:46:28 am

LotBlind: 2017-10-18 04:06:39 am

2017-10-13 01:34:00 pm

I'm going to make some detailed notes here about time losses and such to get the big picture: you only have to reply to whatever is given in the form of a question.

If there was an option to increase brightness, you might have considered it but it's not necessary.

About doing a commentary: that's a great idea! Even in verification it's very useful to have some basic notes that explain for example just the key places where you're doing something whose purpose is not immediately obvious to someone who hasn't seen the run. If such notes are included, the run often passes verification without hassle, cause we don't have to "probe" you like this.

So I can't see where the segment breaks are other than when you move from area to area. Are you segmenting inside each area as well or not? 2 hours by 92 segments is around 1 min 20 seconds per segment... I'm not sure.

4:25 - 2 seconds stuck on enemy at 15 seconds in, long segment.
13:07 - What causes these kinds of inventory mishaps? Do you have a sensitive mouse?
18:47 - Here you're just manipulating enemies to get off the ramp right? No other reason?

Will continue after you've answered the questions so far.

EDIT 1:

4:25 - You mean the rat's AI always always does that?
18:47 - So isn't there even a 1/100 or 1/500 chance that you don't need to wait so long? Could you have used more segments to make sure the ramp ends up being clear or almost clear (so you just fight whatever's left)?
21:19 - When the segment changes here, you're already in the inventory on the first frame of the new segment. Is that possible to do just by buffering the input?
23:44 - Another little mouse thing here... consider using a different mouse in the future?
24:53 - Here's an example of a moment where your ally isn't attacking anything because you didn't move far enough (I think). This kinda stuff causes a direct time loss.
28:43 - I want to point out the movement here, just as another example: when you click far ahead like that with the chest being in the way, you've basically guaranteed losing a few tenths of time. Instead, no doubt, you could have clicked somewhere nearer first to make sure you don't collide with the chest. The movement is mostly okay in this run so far, but is another aspect that can easily be improved on as well.
30:09 - Is there no hotkey for accepting the stats and skills you've selected? In theory, you're losing time by going for the skills first, then attributes, because your mouse (which you're having slight difficulties with anyway) has to travel a further distance. I see that what you're doing is first you get all the skills you need, then spend the rest of your money on strength boosts, but there's nothing preventing you from counting your money ahead of time.
30:19 - Why do you choose the door on the right?

I'm going to make some detailed notes here about time losses and such to get the big picture: you only have to reply to whatever is given in the form of a question.

If there was an option to increase brightness, you might have considered it but it's not necessary.

About doing a commentary: that's a great idea! Even in verification it's very useful to have some basic notes that explain for example just the key places where you're doing something whose purpose is not immediately obvious to someone who hasn't seen the run. If such notes are included, the run often passes verification without hassle, cause we don't have to "probe" you like this.

So I can't see where the segment breaks are other than when you move from area to area. Are you segmenting inside each area as well or not? 2 hours by 92 segments is around 1 min 20 seconds per segment... I'm not sure.

4:25 - 2 seconds stuck on enemy at 15 seconds in, long segment.
13:07 - What causes these kinds of inventory mishaps? Do you have a sensitive mouse?
18:47 - Here you're just manipulating enemies to get off the ramp right? No other reason?

Will continue after you've answered the questions so far.

EDIT 1:

4:25 - You mean the rat's AI always always does that?
18:47 - So isn't there even a 1/100 or 1/500 chance that you don't need to wait so long? Could you have used more segments to make sure the ramp ends up being clear or almost clear (so you just fight whatever's left)?
21:19 - When the segment changes here, you're already in the inventory on the first frame of the new segment. Is that possible to do just by buffering the input?
23:44 - Another little mouse thing here... consider using a different mouse in the future?
24:53 - Here's an example of a moment where your ally isn't attacking anything because you didn't move far enough (I think). This kinda stuff causes a direct time loss.
28:43 - I want to point out the movement here, just as another example: when you click far ahead like that with the chest being in the way, you've basically guaranteed losing a few tenths of time. Instead, no doubt, you could have clicked somewhere nearer first to make sure you don't collide with the chest. The movement is mostly okay in this run so far, but is another aspect that can easily be improved on as well.
30:09 - Is there no hotkey for accepting the stats and skills you've selected? In theory, you're losing time by going for the skills first, then attributes, because your mouse (which you're having slight difficulties with anyway) has to travel a further distance. I see that what you're doing is first you get all the skills you need, then spend the rest of your money on strength boosts, but there's nothing preventing you from counting your money ahead of time.
30:19 - Why do you choose the door on the right?

Blackout

2017-10-17 02:21:33 pm

For the brightness, it's the normal setup. Maybe I can try to record the video in a lighter setup but not sure.

I can make an audio and written commentary about all the specifics manipulations that I done during the run. First time I done that so I will do my best.

I almost always cut the segment when I move from an area to an another except three times:
- First is just in front of Mercurio room (26:57).
- Second is during Othelios manipulation (53:00) and all the 5 or 10 times that I kill him.
- Third is during The Tremere Lord manipulation (1:18:48) and all the 5 or 10 times that I kill him.
Your calculation are right. After I setup my in game full speed there is a lot of segment which are shorter than 1min.

4:25 - If you take the shield you systematically stuck in the ennemy or you need to manipulate him before take it. It's almost the same amount of time.
13:07 - Yeah my mouse is sensitive. Didn't notice this one.
18:47 - Yeah you're right. I tried to do it much faster but i need to wait until all the ennemies go off the ramp before go back.

Would be my pleasure to answers others questions.

For the brightness, it's the normal setup. Maybe I can try to record the video in a lighter setup but not sure.

I can make an audio and written commentary about all the specifics manipulations that I done during the run. First time I done that so I will do my best.

I almost always cut the segment when I move from an area to an another except three times: 
- First is just in front of Mercurio room (26:57).
- Second is during Othelios manipulation (53:00) and all the 5 or 10 times that I kill him.
- Third is during The Tremere Lord manipulation (1:18:48) and all the 5 or 10 times that I kill him.
Your calculation are right. After I setup my in game full speed there is a lot of segment which are shorter than 1min.

4:25 - If you take the shield you systematically stuck in the ennemy or you need to manipulate him before take it. It's almost the same amount of time.
13:07 - Yeah my mouse is sensitive. Didn't notice this one.
18:47 - Yeah you're right. I tried to do it much faster but i need to wait until all the ennemies go off the ramp before go back.

Would be my pleasure to answers others questions.

LotBlind

2017-10-18 04:07:02 am

Bump for edit.

LotBlind

2017-10-20 02:45:17 am

Hmm... I'll be honest: I seem to have downloaded the separate audio commentary track at some point, and then forgotten about its existence. I'm just used to them being given as the second audio track in the run itself. I listened to the first half hour to see if you happen to answer any of my questions and you do, so I'll delete some of the ones I posted before now.

RNG: Ok, so sounds like all the loot (you're talking about chests but maybe you also mean enemy drops?) is RNG. Is it all seeded (randomized) as you're picking it up?

10:30 - I noticed that you're left with two extra potions here, suggesting you could have skipped them earlier. Well... with more manipulation, you probably wouldn't have needed almost any, although the detours seem to be small as it is. The ones you get when you wait for the bridge are for free, of course. 6:42 - Aren't those the same kind of potions? They look like they're directly along the way but you ignore them.

17:32 - Pointless time loss to fighting here if you ultimately decide not to.

Speaking of the part when you're waiting for the bridge (or any similar bottlenecks): can you do any amount of inventory sorting during that time to save even a little bit of time?

I noticed that you can switch between characters. There have to be places where you can manipulate them to stay behind while you do something, then switch to them to get to the next objective faster, or does it have to be Kristoff to activate doors, move between areas etc.? Because of the cutscene at 18:18, your ally is teleported to where you are, which is unfortunate, but maybe something like this would be possible: after the cutscene is skipped, go back to the room you just came from and get the ally stuck on some enemies or something. Then go back to the lever, and switch to the ally. I hope that works. Otherwise, I'm wondering if getting them killed earlier is better because it looks like he's blocking the monsters on the ramp himself for some time.

So, I think I've seen enough of this to pass a verdict. The main thing I might have against this run is its segmentation... even though it has lots of segments! There seems to have been lots of potential to save more time by manipulating enemies and the friendly AI, missing fewer attacks, making sure the ally is attacking something, and especially in getting better drops - I have to assume even if you really really just wanted the EXP, there's some way to spend the money usefully. Segmented runs are largely judged not by how many segments they were done in (though there is a little bit of leeway) but by comparison to the ideal run. The idea is they're supposed to be as different from single-segment runs as possible because that way there's less overlap (no such thing as a semi-segmented run). They are also good for showing off very small details in your routing and planning that can't really be relied on in those single-segment runs: in fact they allow you to be quite creative sometimes! The more you think about all the different ways to make it even one tenth faster, the more and more interesting to watch the run [tends to] become as well. Conversely, a run where the runner didn't really stop to think what they were doing tends to be really humdrum and makes you feel like you could've done the same.

It's never guaranteed, but there might also be save/load tricks... e.g. if you save the game on the last frame before a cutscene, maybe it's not gonna take away your control during it? Or if you save/load when a door is opening maybe it'll open quicker? Did you try if the game behaves any different if you're in first-person mode somewhere?

Are you using all the hotkeys mentioned in the manual? Like does left click + ctrl help?

Unless you're going to tell me everything is seeded when entering the area, I think this has to be a

weak reject

Hmm... I'll be honest: I seem to have downloaded the separate audio commentary track at some point, and then forgotten about its existence. I'm just used to them being given as the second audio track in the run itself. I listened to the first half hour to see if you happen to answer any of my questions and you do, so I'll delete some of the ones I posted before now.

RNG: Ok, so sounds like all the loot (you're talking about chests but maybe you also mean enemy drops?) is RNG. Is it all seeded (randomized) as you're picking it up?

10:30 - I noticed that you're left with two extra potions here, suggesting you could have skipped them earlier. Well... with more manipulation, you probably wouldn't have needed almost any, although the detours seem to be small as it is. The ones you get when you wait for the bridge are for free, of course. 6:42 - Aren't those the same kind of potions? They look like they're directly along the way but you ignore them.

17:32 - Pointless time loss to fighting here if you ultimately decide not to.

Speaking of the part when you're waiting for the bridge (or any similar bottlenecks): can you do any amount of inventory sorting during that time to save even a little bit of time?

I noticed that you can switch between characters. There have to be places where you can manipulate them to stay behind while you do something, then switch to them to get to the next objective faster, or does it have to be Kristoff to activate doors, move between areas etc.? Because of the cutscene at 18:18, your ally is teleported to where you are, which is unfortunate, but maybe something like this would be possible: after the cutscene is skipped, go back to the room you just came from and get the ally stuck on some enemies or something. Then go back to the lever, and switch to the ally. I hope that works. Otherwise, I'm wondering if getting them killed earlier is better because it looks like he's blocking the monsters on the ramp himself for some time.

So, I think I've seen enough of this to pass a verdict. The main thing I might have against this run is its segmentation... even though it has lots of segments! There seems to have been lots of potential to save more time by manipulating enemies and the friendly AI, missing fewer attacks, making sure the ally is attacking something, and especially in getting better drops - I have to assume even if you really really just wanted the EXP, there's some way to spend the money usefully. Segmented runs are largely judged not by how many segments they were done in (though there is a little bit of leeway) but by comparison to the ideal run. The idea is they're supposed to be as different from single-segment runs as possible because that way there's less overlap (no such thing as a semi-segmented run). They are also good for showing off very small details in your routing and planning that can't really be relied on in those single-segment runs: in fact they allow you to be quite creative sometimes! The more you think about all the different ways to make it even one tenth faster, the more and more interesting to watch the run [tends to] become as well. Conversely, a run where the runner didn't really stop to think what they were doing tends to be really humdrum and makes you feel like you could've done the same.

It's never guaranteed, but there might also be save/load tricks... e.g. if you save the game on the last frame before a cutscene, maybe it's not gonna take away your control during it? Or if you save/load when a door is opening maybe it'll open quicker? Did you try if the game behaves any different if you're in first-person mode somewhere?

Are you using all the hotkeys mentioned in the manual? Like does left click + ctrl help?

Unless you're going to tell me everything is seeded when entering the area, I think this has to be a

weak reject

Blackout

2017-10-22 12:31:27 pm

Hi,

I read all you commentary and edit and it's appear that for a segmented speedrun, you need a level of perfection that my run dont have.
I could have done a lot more segment but that wasn't my objective.

This run can be improve but it require a lot of time du all the randomness in the game (all loots).

So I will try to improve it and get back to you when I have something acceptable.

LotBlind

2017-10-22 12:42:44 pm

Yes. As I said, it makes sense to go all-out for segmented strategies in segmented runs. It is mentioned in the rules, but I just highlighted it a bit more because it's been happening a bunch recently that submissions like this come in: there's not much wrong with it in terms of what you could have hoped for if this was the maximum amount of segmentation allowed, but it doesn't answer the question "how good could it go with infinite retries" and also doesn't really pass the test of "do I feel like I couldn't improve on what the runner has done".

I understood that based on your audio commentary you've been playing the game a lot, and I was hoping you wouldn't give up! If you aren't sure, you can just wait until after the verification to record the commentary. I'm working on the same speedrun for over 2 years now myself... haste makes waste (ironically) Smiley

SDAVerification

2017-10-31 12:05:49 pm

Decision posted.