The Pagemaster - July 29, 2016

Edit history:

SDAVerification: 2016-07-29 12:58:52 am

2016-06-28 11:26:39 am

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet

The Pagemaster () (pc) [Any %] [Segmented]

Decision: Reject

Reason: Submission canceled by the runner.

https://queue.speeddemosarchive.com/verificationfiles/1912/

This run will be available for a month. After that these link(s) will no longer work.

Thread title:

SDAVerification

2016-06-28 11:26:40 am

Run Information

The Pagemaster () (pc) [Any %] [Segmented]

Verification Files

http://v.speeddemosarchive.com/pagemaster

Please refer to the Verification Guidelines before posting.

Please post your opinions about the run and be certain to conclude your post with a verdict (Accept/Reject). This is not a contest where the majority wins - I will judge each verification on its content. Please keep your verification brief unless you have a good reason otherwise.

LotBlind

2016-07-05 09:26:36 am

Interesting choice of game! How are you getting it to run even? Virtualization? It's actually on Win 3.0 isn't it? Jesus... Technically in PC games ALL the loading times (including the little ones) are supposed to be left from the timing but in practice this is not going to happen for this game.

Is the cursor glitching an original part of the game?

"Wow! A real Greek amphora!" because that's how children think.
9:10 When you exit this screen to the right, then return immediately, is that a mistake or does it affect stuff?
10:00 - accidental nightmare fodder at all? just me?
14:00 - this part makes me think this would make for a good marathon run, but I still can't tell if it's "awful" or "awesome" Cheesy

What was your luck like for those questions then? The best ever? Would have liked to hear more about the mechanics, how many different questions do they pick from?

End of seg 1, start of 2: when did that blue guy join the gang? He's not present at the end of the last segment. Are those global? i.e. not stored in the save file?

Segment 2:

1:39 - the sign: why does that make me laugh? I must be weird.
4:55 - is this you accidentally taking the cursor beyond the window or something?
7:00 - just let him drink it... Tongue

Wait a second, are we watching a 10-year old having to try to talk someone out of a suicide attempt?
9:20 - "How am I going to find a bride?" I think he's mighty confused about which one he's told him he'd do.
12:59 - Is this kid seriously going to pull out "Fall of the House at Usher"? Hardcore. BTW I don't know if you lost time or not looking at that lag before you can select items, but I need to point out, in case you didn't realize, that using visual cues from the previous screen and "drilling" the same transition a few times over so you remember that spot for sure helps a lot. It's easier than trying to visualize the next screen, and more precise too. It's basically expected of segmented adventure runs, doubly so when the pace is this leisurely with all the waits, that you've got cues for everything. You won't be insta-rejected for missing one or two though, but segmentation definitely creates that kind of expectation in case it wasn't there already.
15:36 - I'd like to point out this is only the second game seeing the run for which has made me want to have somebody shot. Last time it was Hanna Barbera.
16:00 - How can you still have the head in your inventory?
16:06 - I have to point out one of your mistakes in specific so let's take this one: right here you knew for sure the next thing to do was just saving the game, so you could have brought the cursor on the bar early, or closer to it in case that pauses the process. Because adventure game runs are so simple and easy otherwise, this kinda stuff will really stick out. They're actually often kinda high-intensity if it wasn't for the loading times.

segment 3:
Could you explain how you save time by splitting fantasy into two? How does that work exactly?

Question: why couldn't you have segmented right before the Olympus quiz show to manipulate good question luck that way if it's the only RNG?

I realized a big part of why this game is so WTF is because there's no lip synching so it makes you feel schizoid when you can't be sure where the voices are coming from. No but seriously I'm going to kill a baby tortoise if I have to sit through that again.

So holding back on a verdict until some of these questions have been addressed.

Interesting choice of game! How are you getting it to run even? Virtualization? It's actually on Win 3.0 isn't it? Jesus... Technically in PC games ALL the loading times (including the little ones) are supposed to be left from the timing but in practice this is not going to happen for this game.

Is the cursor glitching an original part of the game?

"Wow! A real Greek amphora!" because that's how children think.
9:10 When you exit this screen to the right, then return immediately, is that a mistake or does it affect stuff?
10:00 - accidental nightmare fodder at all? just me?
14:00 - this part makes me think this would make for a good marathon run, but I still can't tell if it's "awful" or "awesome" :D

What was your luck like for those questions then? The best ever? Would have liked to hear more about the mechanics, how many different questions do they pick from?

End of seg 1, start of 2: when did that blue guy join the gang? He's not present at the end of the last segment. Are those global? i.e. not stored in the save file?

Segment 2:

1:39 - the sign: why does that make me laugh? I must be weird.
4:55 - is this you accidentally taking the cursor beyond the window or something?
7:00 - just let him drink it... :P Wait a second, are we watching a 10-year old having to try to talk someone out of a suicide attempt?
9:20 - "How am I going to find a bride?" I think he's mighty confused about which one he's told him he'd do.
12:59 - Is this kid seriously going to pull out "Fall of the House at Usher"? Hardcore. BTW I don't know if you lost time or not looking at that lag before you can select items, but I need to point out, in case you didn't realize, that using visual cues from the previous screen and "drilling" the same transition a few times over so you remember that spot for sure helps a lot. It's easier than trying to visualize the next screen, and more precise too. It's basically expected of segmented adventure runs, doubly so when the pace is this leisurely with all the waits, that you've got cues for everything. You won't be insta-rejected for missing one or two though, but segmentation definitely creates that kind of expectation in case it wasn't there already.
15:36 - I'd like to point out this is only the second game seeing the run for which has made me want to have somebody shot. Last time it was Hanna Barbera.
16:00 - How can you still have the head in your inventory?
16:06 - I have to point out one of your mistakes in specific so let's take this one: right here you knew for sure the next thing to do was just saving the game, so you could have brought the cursor on the bar early, or closer to it in case that pauses the process. Because adventure game runs are so simple and easy otherwise, this kinda stuff will really stick out. They're actually often kinda high-intensity if it wasn't for the loading times.

segment 3:
Could you explain how you save time by splitting fantasy into two? How does that work exactly?

Question: why couldn't you have segmented right before the Olympus quiz show to manipulate good question luck that way if it's the only RNG?

I realized a big part of why this game is so WTF is because there's no lip synching so it makes you feel schizoid when you can't be sure where the voices are coming from. No but seriously I'm going to kill a baby tortoise if I have to sit through that again.

So holding back on a verdict until some of these questions have been addressed.

mrprmiller

Edit history:

mrprmiller: 2016-07-09 01:44:53 pm

2016-07-09 01:44:14 pm

Everyday is puppies and sunshine...

Quote:

Interesting choice of game! How are you getting it to run even? Virtualization? It's actually on Win 3.0 isn't it?

This is a good question. Right off the bat, I noticed the numbers "26000" and "109000" showing up in the upper-right corner of the screen. They do not appear in this run, although the cursor graphics do appear so it very well may be part of it.

But are those numbers part of the original game, or is it a product of virtualization?

I'm a little out of the loop and there isn't always a centralized place for the new rulings; does SDA allow virtualization? My suspicion is you could run DOSBox, install Windows 3.X under DOSBox, install Pagemaster in the DOSBox Windows and probably get a MUCH cleaner looking audio/video with something like Fraps than running it through the Happauge HD PVR 1 that you listed in the Quality Test post, and this would also fit.

Holding back also.

arglefumph

2016-07-10 01:10:17 pm

To respond to the questions...

1. I'm running the game on a ten-year-old computer. For whatever reason, I was able to install the game like normal on the computer. I didn't use any techniques like DOSBox or virutalization, because I don't know how those work. Also, I wasn't sure if SDA allows it.

2. Cursor glitching when I play the game, even when I'm not recording it. I don't know if it occurred when you played in the game back in 1996.

3. For the questions segment, each character randomly chooses one of eight questions. Then the game randomly chooses one of two responses (i.e. Character A will either agree or disagree, Character B does the opposite of Character A). This particular questions segment was about a minute less than average, by my timing, and I have no idea why. That's why I decided to go with this.

I agree, it'd probably be better to save right before the questions segment and replay it over and over again, to see if there's a more optimal time.

An unnecssary complication is that when I'm recording the game, there is a one-second audio delay, because I've got an audio cable running from the headphone jack of the computer with the game, to the computer that's recording. So I have to get the correct answer, before the characters finish talking.

4. Horror (the Blue Guy) appears when I change CDs, because CD 2 is his CD.

5. 4:55 of Segment 2 is me accidentally moving my cursor to the upper/left corner. The game runs in fullscreen, and the menu pops up automatically when your mouse is on the top of the screen. That's why I didn't want to get my mouse in place at 16:06; odds are I would have moved the mouse TOO close to the menu trigger, pausing the scene unnecessarily. But I agree, I could have moved my mouse a LITTLE closer to the menu. Or at least, I could have moved the mouse all the way to the left, so all I would have to do is move it up when the scene finishes.

6. 12:59 of Segment 2. I only used visual cues for the transitions that I couldn't reliably get by feel, like the one in the picture hallway. Now I feel silly for not using visual cues all the time.

7. All used items remain in your inventory, because reasons.

8. Splitting Fantasy in two is a timesaver, because it's faster to get a monster head from Fantasy than it is to get a monster head from Adventure. The monster head in Fantasy is along the route you have to take, whereas the monster head in Adventure requires you to take a half-minute detour. You need either monster head before you enter Horror, to solve Frankenstein's final puzzle.

9. The numbers that appear in the upper-right corner of the screen is your score. They appear whenever you load a game.

To respond to the questions...

1. I'm running the game on a ten-year-old computer. For whatever reason, I was able to install the game like normal on the computer. I didn't use any techniques like DOSBox or virutalization, because I don't know how those work. Also, I wasn't sure if SDA allows it.

2. Cursor glitching when I play the game, even when I'm not recording it. I don't know if it occurred when you played in the game back in 1996.

3. For the questions segment, each character randomly chooses one of eight questions. Then the game randomly chooses one of two responses (i.e. Character A will either agree or disagree, Character B does the opposite of Character A). This particular questions segment was about a minute less than average, by my timing, and I have no idea why. That's why I decided to go with this.

I agree, it'd probably be better to save right before the questions segment and replay it over and over again, to see if there's a more optimal time.

An unnecssary complication is that when I'm recording the game, there is a one-second audio delay, because I've got an audio cable running from the headphone jack of the computer with the game, to the computer that's recording. So I have to get the correct answer, before the characters finish talking.

4. Horror (the Blue Guy) appears when I change CDs, because CD 2 is his CD.

5. 4:55 of Segment 2 is me accidentally moving my cursor to the upper/left corner. The game runs in fullscreen, and the menu pops up automatically when your mouse is on the top of the screen. That's why I didn't want to get my mouse in place at 16:06; odds are I would have moved the mouse TOO close to the menu trigger, pausing the scene unnecessarily. But I agree, I could have moved my mouse a LITTLE closer to the menu. Or at least, I could have moved the mouse all the way to the left, so all I would have to do is move it up when the scene finishes.

6. 12:59 of Segment 2. I only used visual cues for the transitions that I couldn't reliably get by feel, like the one in the picture hallway. Now I feel silly for not using visual cues all the time.

7. All used items remain in your inventory, because reasons.

8. Splitting Fantasy in two is a timesaver, because it's faster to get a monster head from Fantasy than it is to get a monster head from Adventure. The monster head in Fantasy is along the route you have to take, whereas the monster head in Adventure requires you to take a half-minute detour. You need either monster head before you enter Horror, to solve Frankenstein's final puzzle.

9. The numbers that appear in the upper-right corner of the screen is your score. They appear whenever you load a game.

LotBlind

2016-07-11 09:44:15 am

Ha! So it WAS you, fumph... I thought maybe you were trying to make good of your promise to run a pirate game, which this arguably (argleably) counts as.

You MAY use DosBox or virtualization for games like this btw. If there's official re-releases on DosBox make sure to use those settings though (and I think those versions are preferred period but not 100% on that).

Getting an audio splitter?

So seeing as you could do the extra save/change where you segment to make the RNG part smarter, and maybe think some more about your visual cues (a basic thing to do with every adventure game, but this is both segmented AND has giant delays after everything you do), it might just be worth redoing it. And you missed the question about 9:10 in segment 1? It's a mistake right?

ktwo

2016-07-21 08:36:40 am

Is the reason for segmenting the run the fact that you need to swap CDs? Wouldn't the disc-swapping just have been shown as some kind of "loading time", which could then have been removed from the total time? From a pure game play perspective, I have a hard time seeing the reason for segmenting a run of this game. The execution seems very lenient with the long forced delays between actions and the only rng is anyways in segment 1.

arglefumph

2016-07-24 07:17:34 pm

I have no idea how to DosBox the game, but I guess I can look into it! I believe it's a recent enough game that DosBox will give you the "this game should be run on Windows" error message.

I thought about getting an audio splitter, but I decided it'd be cheaper to use Yua's "downmix to mono" feature.

With 9:10 on Segment 1, that isn't a mistake. You need to solve the puzzle, leave the screen, then return in order to move left. If all you do is solve the puzzle, the "go left" arrow doesn't appear. I don't know the reason for this. I think it's because the game expects you to enter the screen from the left, not the right. That alternate route is a lot longer, though, because you have a dialogue puzzle where you answer five questions, then answer them a second time.

The only reason I segmented the run was for swapping CDs. If "waiting for CDs to load" doesn't count towards the total run time, then yes, this run should be redone as a single segment. It's only got one puzzle with RNG, which is not that bad, especially since you could route the game to reach that puzzle within the first ten minutes.

I have no idea how to DosBox the game, but I guess I can look into it! I believe it's a recent enough game that DosBox will give you the "this game should be run on Windows" error message.

I thought about getting an audio splitter, but I decided it'd be cheaper to use Yua's "downmix to mono" feature.

With 9:10 on Segment 1, that isn't a mistake. You need to solve the puzzle, leave the screen, then return in order to move left. If all you do is solve the puzzle, the "go left" arrow doesn't appear. I don't know the reason for this. I think it's because the game expects you to enter the screen from the left, not the right. That alternate route is a lot longer, though, because you have a dialogue puzzle where you answer five questions, then answer them a second time.

The only reason I segmented the run was for swapping CDs. If "waiting for CDs to load" doesn't count towards the total run time, then yes, this run should be redone as a single segment. It's only got one puzzle with RNG, which is not that bad, especially since you could route the game to reach that puzzle within the first ten minutes.

LotBlind

2016-07-25 09:56:34 am

Well, I guess segmenting just to perfect the question luck would also be acceptable. That's what I told BigMan to do with Kyrandia 1 and 3 and that's what he did. Kyrandia 1 is in 2 segments also. But up to you. So long as the pre-positioning is better.

mrprmiller

Edit history:

mrprmiller: 2016-07-26 07:49:39 am

mrprmiller: 2016-07-26 07:44:35 am

2016-07-26 07:43:51 am

Everyday is puppies and sunshine...

Quote:

I have no idea how to DosBox the game, but I guess I can look into it! I believe it's a recent enough game that DosBox will give you the "this game should be run on Windows" error message.

It was a bit of a battle. The game does require Windows. I had to install Windows 3.x in DOSBox, install Soundblaster 16 drivers correctly with DOSBox's preferred IRQ 7, and install video drivers to match the game. :/ Mounting the CD-ROM to DOSBox is easy, at least. Since Windows 3.x isn't really a O/S but a required front-end, I imagine this would be okay with the rules. I do believe this would get better A/V quality, but given the difficulty of the set up... ... That being said, once it is set up, it will probably be your favorite way to play the game.

Who would have thought that this title would be so much time to verify? HEHEHEH I love SDA.

Quote:

That's what I told BigMan to do with Kyrandia 1 and 3 and that's what he did.

I remember that discussion. It was a clever (and the only reasonable) resolution to a pure RNG situation that could add anywhere from 1 minute to 1 hour.

[quote]I have no idea how to DosBox the game, but I guess I can look into it! I believe it's a recent enough game that DosBox will give you the "this game should be run on Windows" error message.[/quote]
It was a bit of a battle.  The game does require Windows.  I had to install Windows 3.x in DOSBox, install Soundblaster 16 drivers correctly with DOSBox's preferred IRQ 7, and install video drivers to match the game.  :/  Mounting the CD-ROM to DOSBox is easy, at least.  Since Windows 3.x isn't really a O/S but a required front-end, I imagine this would be okay with the rules.  I do believe this would get better A/V quality, but given the difficulty of the set up... ...  That being said, once it is set up, it will probably be your favorite way to play the game.

Who would have thought that this title would be so much time to verify?  HEHEHEH  I love SDA.

[quote]That's what I told BigMan to do with Kyrandia 1 and 3 and that's what he did.[/quote]
I remember that discussion.  It was a clever (and the only reasonable) resolution to a pure RNG situation that could add anywhere from 1 minute to 1 hour.

arglefumph

2016-07-28 09:25:28 pm

Okay, it's decided that I'll redo the run as a single segment. And maybe try out that DOSBox thing...maybe. The first step would be understanding any of the things you just said. Wink

SDAVerification

2016-07-29 12:58:53 am

Decision posted.