some help wif quake theory

Edit history:

sshplur: 2004-12-23 07:32:02 am

2004-12-23 07:29:26 am

i've been so hopped up in speedrunning quake this year i spent some time writing a quake theory text and trick explanation in response to anthony bailey's.

but recent circumstances force me otherwise, so im rushin it before life gets busy in the new year. i have no idea if i have time to post it on me web site or create one in time, in fact. below i've pasted a short chart briefing the bugs and tricks associated with them. lemme know what you think.

cheers

note: bhop explanation under construction cuz im still learning how to do so, though i can do everything else preceding it. im leaving out the word 'ace' cuz people seem to be put off by that Huh?

------------
NormalQuake Stuff
note: 'acceleration jumping' was tagged by the ozzie (atleast I think he is) QW player, Cinclant, in his text, 'QuakeWorld Jumping'.

Bugs:
zig-zag
continuous alteration between strafes will running forward.

wall hug
strafe into a wall while running forward, facing a tad away from it.

jumping
preserves speed until you hit the ground. jump lengths correspond to the crosshair's verticle axis, where a higher aim equals a longer jump.

angle-speedup
steering increases speed.

return-angle-speedup
steering thinly to one side then quickly flicking to the other, facing foward-centre as you were. only used in acceleration jumping.

mid-air steering
steer and strafe in the same direction, mid-air, turn in the corresponding direction (ie. strafe and steer right to turn right). best known for navigating corners and obstacles.

rocket/grenade jump
launch/plant the missile into the ground and jump when it explodes, taking advantage of the damage-push and consequently launching yourself in the desired direction at ridiculous speeds. grenade jumping requires precise timing for proper use, ie. e1m3 - The Necropolis.

Tricks:
note: all tricks only executed with a jump following the methods. eg. reading a zig/zag means you zig or zag, strafing left or right as you run forward, then jump holding the latter key.

strafe jump - zig/zag
where continuous execution (w/ alteration) increases speed.

circle-strafe jump - above + 90 degree angle-speedup
ideal for corners and much better boost.

acceleration jump - zig-zaaaag + return-angle-speedup
a tweaked circle-strafe-jump. properly executed with a return-angle-speedup. ideal when moving in a straight line. many cases work without the initial zig.

bunny hop - continual strafe jumps + mid-air steering without +forward
jaw-dropping speed and movement. properly used with a damage-push, circle-strafe jump, or an acceleration jump. this trick depends on fluent timing, map knowledge and mastery of the above.

Thread title:

i've been so hopped up in speedrunning quake this year i spent some time writing a quake theory text and trick explanation in response to anthony bailey's.

but recent circumstances force me otherwise, so im rushin it before life gets busy in the new year. i have no idea if i have time to post it on me web site or create one in time, in fact. below i've pasted a short chart briefing the bugs and tricks associated with them. lemme know what you think.

cheers

note: bhop explanation under construction cuz im still learning how to do so, though i can do everything else preceding it. im leaving out the word 'ace' cuz people seem to be put off by that  ???
------------
NormalQuake Stuff
note: 'acceleration jumping' was tagged by the ozzie (atleast I think he is) QW player, Cinclant, in his text, 'QuakeWorld Jumping'.

Bugs:
zig-zag
continuous alteration between strafes will running forward.

wall hug
strafe into a wall while running forward, facing a tad away from it.

jumping
preserves speed until you hit the ground. jump lengths correspond to the crosshair's verticle axis, where a higher aim equals a longer jump.

angle-speedup
steering increases speed.

return-angle-speedup
steering thinly to one side then quickly flicking to the other, facing foward-centre as you were. only used in acceleration jumping.

mid-air steering
steer and strafe in the same direction, mid-air, turn in the corresponding direction (ie. strafe and steer right to turn right). best known for navigating corners and obstacles.

rocket/grenade jump
launch/plant the missile into the ground and jump when it explodes, taking advantage of the damage-push and consequently launching yourself in the desired direction at ridiculous speeds. grenade jumping requires precise timing for proper use, ie. e1m3 - The Necropolis.

Tricks: 
note: all tricks only executed with a jump following the methods. eg. reading a zig/zag means you zig or zag, strafing left or right as you run forward, then jump holding the latter key.

strafe jump - zig/zag
where continuous execution (w/ alteration) increases speed.

circle-strafe jump - above + 90 degree angle-speedup 
ideal for corners and much better boost.

acceleration jump - zig-zaaaag + return-angle-speedup
a tweaked circle-strafe-jump. properly executed with a return-angle-speedup. ideal when moving in a straight line. many cases work without the initial zig.

bunny hop - continual strafe jumps + mid-air steering without +forward 
jaw-dropping speed and movement. properly used with a damage-push, circle-strafe jump, or an acceleration jump. this trick depends on fluent timing, map knowledge and mastery of the above.

Dane-P

2005-01-19 03:06:29 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking for, but it all seems a bit brief to me.

I was really just posting to say that Cinclant was a NZ player, not Aussie. ;d

sshplur

Edit history:

sshplur: 2005-01-19 04:05:07 pm

2005-01-19 03:59:12 pm

ah well, my mistake

just asking for any help in explaining Quake's various tricks and bugs. What i posted was a sample of the text overall, so i understand why it would be obscure. It was a growing text so it grew as i kept learning how to bunny. If the above is read 100+ times and no replies, what's the point?

I wanted to write something along the lines of Anthony Bailey's previous writings since there's very few in that regard, but then who cares? Newbies are still coming in in few numbers but i wanted to help 'em all the same. Everyone here knows their chops, so i thought i could ask for their help.

But you needn't to worry about that anymore, the text is dead and i stopped writing it.

Mandel

2005-01-19 04:03:45 pm

Mumma

SDA does care in general and about newbies in particular Grin

There has been plans to make a trick explanation section on SDA but so far they are just plans. Maybe some time in the future, only time can tell Wink

Kay

2005-01-19 10:54:09 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

jump lengths correspond to the crosshair's verticle axis, where a higher aim equals a longer jump

- Not true. Doesnt matter if you look into the sky or the ground. You jump the same distance (based on the velocity you had before the jump). Unless you move the mouse + use strafe keys in the jump itself.

This is seen in many demos. Lets say you jump high straight up (from a jump-pad ala quake3 or similar), you can now move the mouse from left to right, and press the strafebuttons to the same side that you move the mouse. You will now create velocity forward from nothing.

Using this trick you can modify the rule of all jumps being the same distance.

To explain further: Move forward at 200 speed (normal walk speed), then jump. Every time you do this, you will jump the same lenght. Do this again, but use Joe's jumpscript (left and right mousemovement + left and right strafes) and you will jump longer.

Now I've completely forgotten what the hell Im talking about, and got to find some more alcohol to consuyme.

jump lengths correspond to the crosshair's verticle axis, where a higher aim equals a longer jump

- Not true. Doesnt matter if you look into the sky or the ground. You jump the same distance (based on the velocity you had before the jump). Unless you move the mouse + use strafe keys in the jump itself.

This is seen in many demos. Lets say you jump high straight up (from a jump-pad ala quake3 or similar), you can now move the mouse from left to right, and press the strafebuttons to the same side that you move the mouse. You will now create velocity forward from nothing.

Using this trick you can modify the rule of  all jumps being the same distance.

To explain further: Move forward at 200 speed (normal walk speed), then jump. Every time you do this, you will jump the same lenght. Do this again, but use Joe's jumpscript (left and right mousemovement + left and right strafes) and you will jump longer.

Now I've completely forgotten what the hell Im talking about, and got to find some more alcohol to consuyme.

Connor

2005-01-20 12:05:28 pm

Really the only way to get a good understanding of the available tricks is to practice, practice, practice Smiley

Personally I haven't got a clue about why bunnyhops make you move faster, or why damage pushes the player (why, for example, does a quadded rocketboost push you far more than four times as high as a single rocket boost?)

I doubt that a thorough knowledge of quake physics and the code behind it would help you do better runs. It all comes down to playing the game. Lots. Eventually the 'feel' of the quake environment becomes natural and intuitive.

Even so, I think some kind of document explaining a few of the essential tricks and how to do them would be a worthwile read. How many people, new to the game, spent hours trying to perform air-control tricks with the forward button held down in the air? I know a trick-list would have helped me Tongue

sshplur

2005-01-22 08:58:04 am

'It all comes down to playing the game. Lots.'

that is a fact among many skilled gamers where it all comes down to the 'feel' from hours and hours of play. ask them about any relating theories and they will fess up to the same... experience (Connor).

the text went over a serious remake to cut out all that mathematics rubbish. so my post was basically one of bare-essentials.

there's no how-to in the said post cause, like i said, it was a sample before i was going to post the whole shebang somewhere. there was gonna be an accompanying demo tutorial too (slow-mo and all) but i'm missing the point here.

thanks a bunch Mandel, Kay and Connor! there's a slim chance i'll ressurect my text but your responses will be kept in mind Smiley

j0zz1e

2005-01-29 11:24:30 pm

Quote:

How many people, new to the game, spent hours trying to perform air-control tricks with the forward button held down in the air? I know a trick-list would have helped me

haha, familiar...
I realized this after ~1.5 years since I had begun running.
And than, after another 1 year, Attila told me about r_fullbright 1 to make the e1m6 outjumping easier... just try that w/o fullbright if you hadn't done before. And use an old GL engine. Yeah, it's pretty dark there Smiley

Omega

2005-02-17 10:56:37 am

"Bunny hopping" without using +forward makes me come to a full stop after a while so I'm #@!$!#@ still doing something wrong Smiley

Kay

2005-02-17 11:51:45 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I learned alot on the map "The Crypt". In the beginning theres a winding stair up to a door. Practice jumping all the way up to the door. Start by the pond, facing away from the door at the top. Start jumping up the stairs strafing to the left, and here's the trick: Tap the +forward key lightly EVERY time you do a jump, at the exact same time that you press jumpbutton.

This really is the trick when bunnyjumping is concerned. After the first bunnyjump you dont touch the +forwardbutton, except at the exact time you press jump button.

This is good when you have some room to generate speed, but if you need to go into a sharp turn, you need to leave out the +forward tap, to turn fast enough, and maintain the speed you have.

sshplur

2005-02-18 04:25:02 am

with +forward (at the jumps) is also the turning motion, which helps increase the boost.

it's a bit tricky tappin +forward, but you'll get used to it.

also timing, try to get a rythm happening if you're moving on even ground. higher and lower ground calls for less/longer air, which you'll have to compensate for. a good map for this is e1m1, especially at the end.

vb

2006-01-28 10:58:06 am

Aim has nothing to do with jump height. Jump velocity only acts on the z axis.

Lag.Com

Edit history:

Lag.Com: 2006-01-28 11:59:50 am

2006-01-28 11:54:27 am

sda loyalist

Quote:

(why, for example, does a quadded rocketboost push you far more than four times as high as a single rocket boost?)

That one I can explain; it's based on the physics for projectile motion... mathematics time!
There are four equations which govern projectile motion; I only need to use two here. Note, usually the character for initial velocity is NOT i, but due to the lameness filter on the forum I can't use the original letter. Also note I am only considering vertical speed/distance here.
[tt]v = i + a*t[/tt] and [tt]s = i*t + 0.5*a*t*t[/tt].
i is the initial velocity, v is the final velocity, a is the acceleration, t is the time taken, s is the displacement (or distance travelled).
Say a normal rocket boost gives you a speed of 10x/s (x being an arbitrary unit, Quake uses its own). Let's also say that the gravity engine decelerates you by 10x/s per second, that is, 10x/s/s. Let's see the maximum jump height.

[tt]i = 10x/s, a = -10x/s/s
First compute the time taken for the player to go from full speed to zero speed (dead stop in midair, half way through the jump).
v = i + a*t
0 = 10 - 10*t
t = 1s
Okay, now plug the t=1 into the other formula to get the distance.
s = i*t + 0.5*a*t*t
s = 10*1 + 0.5*-10*1*1
s = 10 - 5
s = 5x[/tt]

Alright, so a rocket boost gives you a maximum height of 5x. Let's see what happens when you start with 4 times the thrust, i.e. a quadded rocket boost.
[tt]i = 40x/s, a = -10x/s/s
v = i + a*t
0 = 40 - 10*t
t = 4s
The time taken is 4 times the original time taken, which you would expect.
s = i*t + 0.5*a*t*t
s = 40*4 + 0.5*-10*4*4
s = 160 - 80
s = 80x[/tt]
So, multiplying your starting thrust by 4 gives you a 16 times higher maximum height. Basically you square the multiple.
In practice this isn't quite right because the thrust you get from jumping is not quadrupled, only the force of the rocket, so you will probably get a little less than 16 times the height. Nevertheless, I hope that helped. Smiley

[quote](why, for example, does a quadded rocketboost push you far more than four times as high as a single rocket boost?)[/quote]

That one I can explain; it's based on the physics for projectile motion... mathematics time!
[i]There are four equations which govern projectile motion; I only need to use two here. Note, usually the character for initial velocity is NOT i, but due to the lameness filter on the forum I can't use the original letter. Also note I am only considering vertical speed/distance here.[/i]
[tt]v = i + a*t[/tt] [i]and[/i] [tt]s = i*t + 0.5*a*t*t[/tt].
[i]i is the initial velocity, v is the final velocity, a is the acceleration, t is the time taken, s is the displacement (or distance travelled).
Say a normal rocket boost gives you a speed of 10x/s (x being an arbitrary unit, Quake uses its own). Let's also say that the gravity engine [b]decelerates[/b] you by 10x/s per second, that is, 10x/s/s. Let's see the maximum jump height.[/i]

[tt]i = 10x/s, a = -10x/s/s
First compute the time taken for the player to go from full speed to zero speed (dead stop in midair, half way through the jump).
v = i + a*t
0 = 10 - 10*t
t = 1s
Okay, now plug the t=1 into the other formula to get the distance.
s = i*t + 0.5*a*t*t
s = 10*1 + 0.5*-10*1*1
s = 10 - 5
s = 5x[/tt]

[i]Alright, so a rocket boost gives you a maximum height of 5x. Let's see what happens when you start with 4 times the thrust, i.e. a quadded rocket boost.[/i]
[tt]i = 40x/s, a = -10x/s/s
v = i + a*t
0 = 40 - 10*t
t = 4s
The time taken is 4 times the original time taken, which you would expect.
s = i*t + 0.5*a*t*t
s = 40*4 + 0.5*-10*4*4
s = 160 - 80
s = 80x[/tt]
[i]So, multiplying your starting thrust by 4 gives you a 16 times higher maximum height. Basically you square the multiple.[/i]
In practice this isn't quite right because the thrust you get from jumping is not quadrupled, only the force of the rocket, so you will probably get a little less than 16 times the height. Nevertheless, I hope that helped. :)