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SDAVerification: 2020-02-04 02:50:08 pm
SDAVerification: 2020-02-04 02:49:39 pm
Game Page: Doesn't exist yet

Sniper Elite () (pc) [Any %] [Segmented]

Decision: Canceled

Reason: The runner will work on an improvement, submission canceled

https://queue.speeddemosarchive.com/verificationfiles/2247/

This run will be available for a month. After that these link(s) will no longer work.
Thread title:  
Run Information

Sniper Elite () (pc) [Any %] [Segmented]

Verification Files

http://v.speeddemosarchive.com/sniperelite-20200118/

Please refer to the Verification Guidelines before posting.

Please post your opinions about the run and be certain to conclude your post with a verdict (Accept/Reject). If you wish to remain anonymous, you can also send a pm with your reply to 'sdaverification' (please state clearly in that case which run you have verified). This is not a contest where the majority wins - Each verification will be judged on its content.
well run looks pretty good to me, unfortunately there were some minor mistakes during run, but i would accept it.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2020-02-02 08:50:20 am
I'm currently ill and I thought I'd watch this whole run but I already know what the verdict will have to be.

I see this is a big improvement from the last run that got rejected (though that one seems to have had the loading screens in the timing for some reason). It still uses the same number of segments (one per mission), but I was told that you could save in the middle of missions as well, so I was trying my best to convey to the previous runner that you could and should use more than one segment per mission. We want segmented runs to be as different as possible from single-segment runs. They should answer the question "what would the speedrun look like if everything went as well as it possibly could?"

In a true segmented speedrun, you could get more double kills and such. Maybe manipulate enemy movements to be more favorable. Throw the grenade at 14:07 a little earlier. Prefire shots faster than you can react to the target appearing. There should probably be more like 80-100 segments, not 27.

If there is no carryover between two missions (if all your equipment and weapons are reset at the start of the next mission), you can reuse the same segment in missions where it can't be made faster. Otherwise, if you redo a segment in the middle of the run, you have to make sure your ammunition and health (and anything else that can help save time) is at least as good as in the segment that follows. Ask me if you don't understand this.

If you don't understand why our quality standards are this high: if we had accepted spartaque's first run, we'd have to have accepted the second run too (if he or someone else had made one) and now this third one. Our audience will watch runs for games they don't know, but they won't watch lots of runs for the same game and category unless they were reaally into it. That's why we want the first submission already to look really optimized. If they'll only watch one run, you don't want it to be the slow and sloppy one.

So yeah, because of a far too low segment count, which leads into lots of missed headshots, double kills, even triple kills (if the game allows it) slightly unoptimized movement (it's quite tricky in this game), not enough RNG manipulation and probably some unoptimal (too safe) strategies, this has to be a

reject
Quote from LotBlind:
I'm currently ill and I thought I'd watch this whole run but I already know what the verdict will have to be.

I see this is a big improvement from the last run that got rejected (though that one seems to have had the loading screens in the timing for some reason). It still uses the same number of segments (one per mission), but I was told that you could save in the middle of missions as well, so I was trying my best to convey to the previous runner that you could and should use more than one segment per mission. We want segmented runs to be as different as possible from single-segment runs. They should answer the question "what would the speedrun look like if everything went as well as it possibly could?"

The game was capped at 30 fps, and that was leading me to very bad aim. at 14:07 if I would throw it earlier, I wouldn't kill all of them. Segmenting in a middle of the run doesn't really affect the amount of ammo because it always is sufficent for lvl and also making more segments for me is probably harder to make because I'm doing everything from point A to point B

In a true segmented speedrun, you could get more double kills and such. Maybe manipulate enemy movements to be more favorable. Throw the grenade at 14:07 a little earlier. Prefire shots faster than you can react to the target appearing. There should probably be more like 80-100 segments, not 27.

If there is no carryover between two missions (if all your equipment and weapons are reset at the start of the next mission), you can reuse the same segment in missions where it can't be made faster. Otherwise, if you redo a segment in the middle of the run, you have to make sure your ammunition and health (and anything else that can help save time) is at least as good as in the segment that follows. Ask me if you don't understand this.

If you don't understand why our quality standards are this high: if we had accepted spartaque's first run, we'd have to have accepted the second run too (if he or someone else had made one) and now this third one. Our audience will watch runs for games they don't know, but they won't watch lots of runs for the same game and category unless they were reaally into it. That's why we want the first submission already to look really optimized. If they'll only watch one run, you don't want it to be the slow and sloppy one.

So yeah, because of a far too low segment count, which leads into lots of missed headshots, double kills, even triple kills (if the game allows it) slightly unoptimized movement (it's quite tricky in this game), not enough RNG manipulation and probably some unoptimal (too safe) strategies, this has to be a

reject


My aim was bad because the game was played in capped 30 fps. Segmenting in the middle of run doesn't really matter if I'm missing a couple of bullets or a ppsh because I often don't need a machine gun. 14:07 - I couldn't throw that nade faster because It wouldn't kill all of them. Segmenting in more than 27 segments isn't really easy for this game, because I'm doing everything from point A to point B and also loading a save is making a black fade in which struggles me to cut it perfectly in vegas pro
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2020-02-03 09:28:16 am
EDIT: I edited this post after I realized that you included some of your own comments inside the quotation.

The game itself is always capped at 30 FPS or is that because you can't record it at any higher framerate?

"Segmenting in the middle of run doesn't really matter if I'm missing a couple of bullets or a ppsh because I often don't need a machine gun"

So long as you're not accidentally getting any advantage from e.g. a gun's clip being half-empty at the end of one segment but suddenly full in the next one. If you were to redo the whole run, that would eliminate any worries about continuity but in any case please be careful with it if you do want to reuse a segment or two. I can see that you really aren't ever in danger of running out of machine gun bullets so that's probably fine, as you say.

"Segmenting in more than 27 segments isn't really easy for this game, because I'm doing everything from point A to point B"

I don't understand what you mean by this. You can also say it in Russian, which I happen to understand.

"also loading a save is making a black fade in which struggles me to cut it perfectly in vegas pro"

Does it cause you to lose time to save and load? Do you e.g. stop running? Also did you test whether you could make something happen faster if you save at the right time? Maybe it makes an animation finish faster or does something to the enemy AI for example.

The video doesn't have to be perfectly cut when you submit it, so long as it has every frame of gameplay. Does the gameplay resume at the beginning of the fade-in (when reloading) like at the start of missions? Is it just difficult to know which frame is the first frame of the fade-in? You don't particularly have to be worried about things like that. Our timer is used to timing runs very carefully and he can do all that work, so long as all the timed part of the run is present.

14:07 - okay. It was just an example though.
Edit history:
Skajdrovski: 2020-02-03 11:52:48 am
Skajdrovski: 2020-02-03 11:51:46 am
Skajdrovski: 2020-02-03 11:50:25 am
Skajdrovski: 2020-02-03 11:40:12 am
Skajdrovski: 2020-02-03 11:36:46 am
Skajdrovski: 2020-02-03 11:34:08 am
Quote from LotBlind:
EDIT: I edited this post after I realized that you included some of your own comments inside the quotation.

The game itself is always capped at 30 FPS or is that because you can't record it at any higher framerate?

"Segmenting in the middle of run doesn't really matter if I'm missing a couple of bullets or a ppsh because I often don't need a machine gun"

So long as you're not accidentally getting any advantage from e.g. a gun's clip being half-empty at the end of one segment but suddenly full in the next one. If you were to redo the whole run, that would eliminate any worries about continuity but in any case please be careful with it if you do want to reuse a segment or two. I can see that you really aren't ever in danger of running out of machine gun bullets so that's probably fine, as you say.

"Segmenting in more than 27 segments isn't really easy for this game, because I'm doing everything from point A to point B"

I don't understand what you mean by this. You can also say it in Russian, which I happen to understand.

"also loading a save is making a black fade in which struggles me to cut it perfectly in vegas pro"

Does it cause you to lose time to save and load? Do you e.g. stop running? Also did you test whether you could make something happen faster if you save at the right time? Maybe it makes an animation finish faster or does something to the enemy AI for example.

The video doesn't have to be perfectly cut when you submit it, so long as it has every frame of gameplay. Does the gameplay resume at the beginning of the fade-in (when reloading) like at the start of missions? Is it just difficult to know which frame is the first frame of the fade-in? You don't particularly have to be worried about things like that. Our timer is used to timing runs very carefully and he can do all that work, so long as all the timed part of the run is present.

14:07 - okay. It was just an example though.


This game has some problems with physics when it's running in more than 30 fps like old GTA series. I don't speak russian either as my english skills Smiley I'm Polish. When you load a save, the game starts imidiately with a long fade-in so I can't see what's happening during that 1-2 sec fade. No I'm not losing any time because saving and loading is keybinded. So... You're saying that I can just put another segment without cutting a fade-in ? How then can I manage to get my overall time ?
So does a higher FPS mean you get an advantage of some kind? What exactly happens?

It sounds like you just have to plan where to segment the game in places where it doesn't matter that you can't see what's happening, e.g. you're already facing the right direction.

Could you show us an example video of what it looks like when you save and load inside the game?
Edit history:
Skajdrovski: 2020-02-03 01:36:37 pm
Quote from LotBlind:
So does a higher FPS mean you get an advantage of some kind? What exactly happens?

It sounds like you just have to plan where to segment the game in places where it doesn't matter that you can't see what's happening, e.g. you're already facing the right direction.

Could you show us an example video of what it looks like when you save and load inside the game?


No, because when FPS is uncaped, you're getting a very slidy movement which slows you down and also bugs enemies eg. They can randomly turn into unexcepted way when patrolling. A while ago I tried to segment a lvl and in suprise, I managed to get it working very smooth on video. I'm really excited about the resulted time Smiley
Edit history:
Skajdrovski: 2020-02-03 01:57:37 pm
Give me some time to upload an example of quick saving and loading Smiley

Okay, the physics thing sounds like the game might behave differently for different people based on CPU power so let's assume that it makes sense to cap it to 30 FPS then. Furthermore, it sounds like it's slower anyway.

I don't really see any reason why you can't do what I suggested then: there are often little cuts or something like that in segmented speedruns when the segment changes. That or the music resets. People are used to them. Please start looking into what the most optimal strategies are when you don't have to think about safety. Take your time, and we're looking forwards to seeing the results whenever you're ready.

In fact, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you posted a work in progress in this thread of the first two missions or so so I can tell you if you're headed the right way.
Edit history:
Skajdrovski: 2020-02-04 08:00:23 am
Quote from LotBlind:
Okay, the physics thing sounds like the game might behave differently for different people based on CPU power so let's assume that it makes sense to cap it to 30 FPS then. Furthermore, it sounds like it's slower anyway.

I don't really see any reason why you can't do what I suggested then: there are often little cuts or something like that in segmented speedruns when the segment changes. That or the music resets. People are used to them. Please start looking into what the most optimal strategies are when you don't have to think about safety. Take your time, and we're looking forwards to seeing the results whenever you're ready.

In fact, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you posted a work in progress in this thread of the first two missions or so so I can tell you if you're headed the right way.


I understood, new run is on the way. I'm making atleast 2-3 segments per lvl now. And I also switched to capped 60 fps, because aiming feels terrible on 30 fps, yeah it's making movement worse but not as bad as uncapped fps
Of course one of the things you can manipulate is hitting difficult shots without even scoping...

There was one level in particular where you enter an eclosed factory or something and there are several waves of enemies randomly spawning all around you. That level should probably be done in more like 5, 6, 7... segments because it looked like where they spawn was a huge factor in how fast you could complete it. We're very unlikely to reject runs because of using too many segments. We all just want to see what's theoretically possible. Bouncing grenades off walls at enemies you can't even see etc...
Edit history:
Skajdrovski: 2020-02-04 11:13:42 am
Quote from LotBlind:
Of course one of the things you can manipulate is hitting difficult shots without even scoping...

There was one level in particular where you enter an eclosed factory or something and there are several waves of enemies randomly spawning all around you. That level should probably be done in more like 5, 6, 7... segments because it looked like where they spawn was a huge factor in how fast you could complete it. We're very unlikely to reject runs because of using too many segments. We all just want to see what's theoretically possible. Bouncing grenades off walls at enemies you can't even see etc...

You don't need to kill all of them, just the ones that carrying the heavy machine gun. 4-5 segments should be enough
Skajdrovski,

Since you're working on an improvement, I'm canceling this submission and verification. You're welcome to continue the discussion here or in the other Sniper Elite thread in the planning part of the forum (https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/sniper_elite.html).

We look forward to an improvement being submitted. No need to rush getting it done though. We're not going anywhere, so just take your time and focus on getting a solid run.

/ktwo
Decision posted.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2020-02-07 08:27:03 am
You've already submitted a new run now? You can't possibly have had the time to make it as good as it should be... Like ktwo said, please don't rush it. I don't think any such runs were ever made in such a short time. Like I suggested before, you could post a few work-in-progress videos here for feedback first.

I've been working on my segmented run for years...
That isn't a hard game to run, trust me
I'm gonna make some comments this time
If this ends up being another reject, I refuse to look at another submission for several months. Anyway see you in the next verification thread then I guess.
You got my word