Sheep, Dog 'n' Wolf (PS1)

DanE

Edit history:

DanE: 2013-06-09 06:10:08 am

2013-06-09 06:08:47 am

Fjölpärsk

Ever since I picked up this game (known as Sheep Raider in the US) I have been thinking about doing a run, especially since the many different ways to finish it provides a healty dose of speedrun potentional. It took a lot of time to get things going, but it feels great to start a new project and see what it turns out like. I will be playing the PAL version of the game on a PS2.

So far I have gone through each level a number of times to get a feel for what can be done and the plan is to record each level individually. The number of shortcuts I've found so far have exceeded my expectations already and I'm sure that there are many other shortcuts out there waiting to be found. Sam is easy to manipulate in many levels and much of the surroundings (trees, rocks, mailboxes etc) can be used to skip past areas. All in all, it comes down to strategy and planning and I'm really looking forward to see how fast it can be done.

I'll try to keep this thread updated as much as I can though it might take a while before any videos will show up here. Any comments, tips or general good luck wishes are welcome!

Thread title:

Ever since I picked up this game (known as [i]Sheep Raider[/i] in the US) I have been thinking about doing a run, especially since the many different ways to finish it provides a healty dose of speedrun potentional. It took a lot of time to get things going, but it feels great to start a new project and see what it turns out like. I will be playing the PAL version of the game on a PS2.

So far I have gone through each level a number of times to get a feel for what can be done and the plan is to record each level individually. The number of shortcuts I've found so far have exceeded my expectations already and I'm sure that there are many other shortcuts out there waiting to be found. Sam is easy to manipulate in many levels and much of the surroundings (trees, rocks, mailboxes etc) can be used to skip past areas. All in all, it comes down to strategy and planning and I'm really looking forward to see how fast it can be done.

I'll try to keep this thread updated as much as I can though it might take a while before any videos will show up here. Any comments, tips or general good luck wishes are welcome!

DanE

2013-06-15 03:45:01 pm

5 levels done so far and by the end of the week I'll probably have one or two more levels finished. Level 7, 11, 13 and B1 will be the toughest ones to do fast (for different reasons), but apart from those the other levels will not cause that much trouble. Your main enemy in this game is by far the camera angle, unless you know exactly how it will behave in the most crucial spots you will most likely fall to your death or screw up in another way. Frustrating as hell, but what can you do?

The same day I started this thread I accutally came across a YT user called poomrus that had some videos with a lot of nice tricks of this game. Though they aren't speedruns I'll recommend taking a look at them since they will give you a hint about what my runs will look like.

Just noticed that they are played on the PC version, but you'll get the hang of it anyway.

5 levels done so far and by the end of the week I'll probably have one or two more levels finished. Level 7, 11, 13 and B1 will be the toughest ones to do fast (for different reasons), but apart from those the other levels will not cause that much trouble. Your main enemy in this game is by far the camera angle, unless you know [u][i]exactly[/i][/u] how it will behave in the most crucial spots you will most likely fall to your death or screw up in another way. Frustrating as hell, but what can you do?

The same day I started this thread I accutally came across a YT user called [i]poomrus [/i]that had some videos with a lot of nice tricks of this game. Though they aren't speedruns I'll recommend taking a look at them since they will give you a hint about what my runs will look like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ2Ua8Vg3XI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0DimTBFyzc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiKpYGWe99E

Just noticed that they are played on the PC version, but you'll get the hang of it anyway.

DanE

Edit history:

DanE: 2013-06-30 04:03:21 am

DanE: 2013-06-30 04:03:07 am

2013-06-30 04:02:14 am

Fjölpärsk

Levels 1-10 and B2 done. The castle levels have proven to be tougher than I thougt but a challenge is always welcome. At this moment I'm trying to figure out how to get out of Sam's field of vision in B1, seen in this video below at about 02:30:

No matter how I try I can't make the meter disappear when I jump in the same corner. It is possible to jump from the tree to the hole in the wall where the rock would be catapulted from and from there jump down again (which will make Sam return to his position again), but that is hard to pull of and it does not seem to work at all times. Accordingly, this trick can be done on both PC and PS versions of the game, but why it won't work for me is a mystery.

DanE

2013-07-15 04:25:19 am

Fjölpärsk

Levels 1-14 done and only two more to go! It looks like I won't be able to do B1 as fast as I had hoped for, but I've come up with some skips that will do the trick for now at least. Videos will be posted here later.

General Vagueness

Edit history:

General Vagueness: 2013-07-16 11:13:50 am

2013-07-16 11:13:24 am

Faster than the speed of love

My sister got this game when she was little and dragged me into helping her and playing it. I found it boring at first but it grew on me and actually I think it's good now. I've thought before about speedrun possibilities; it's kind of nice to see someone running with it. Good luck.

DanE

2013-07-19 05:02:14 pm

Thanks for the support! I knew that there must be more people who knew about this gem Smiley

Working on the Mars level now which is the last one, I will look at some earlier levels to see if there are anything particular that can be done faster. B1 turned out OK after all, but it can be done faster it you could get the Sam glitch working.

RoboSparkle

2013-07-21 03:36:38 am

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

Hey Dan I've been routing this game for a while as well very excited to see someone else picking it up at the same time and I'm definitely going to be streaming runs once I can get my PS1 to stream properly. I've had a few attempts at getting out of Sam's field of vision in B1 and can't do it either - I'm running the PAL version of Sheep, Dog 'n' Wolf for PS1 so perhaps it's PC or Sheep Raider versions only?

DanE

2013-07-21 08:25:28 am

Howdy Sparkle, great to see that there are more runners out there Smiley

I'm almost done with the first draft but I'll be sure to catch some streams as well. I run the PAL PS1 version (playing on a PS2 though) and it might be some NTSC vs PAL difference regarding Sam on B1. It works on PC for sure, so it would be terrific if someone with a NTSC copy could verify whether this works on NTSC or not. Sure sucks that it doesn't work on PAL though.

Btw, have you been thinking about doing a SS run or play all levles one by one?

RoboSparkle

Edit history:

RoboSparkle: 2013-07-24 07:15:34 am

RoboSparkle: 2013-07-24 07:15:16 am

2013-07-24 07:14:25 am

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

I prefer SS to segmented generally although as you can play levels at any time once you've completed the game it might be cool to have an IL table created which I'm more than happy to collaborate on if we're playing the same version and each of us has stronger levels. I don't know how long an SS would take considering you have to take mistakes and riskiness of certain strats into account. I did want to do one at ESA during bonus stream and see how long it would be, but that cut out before we could get it on.

Other than that I might get the PC version if I want to do serious SS runs for SDA since the loading time is cut out massively, IMO the cel-shading looks better on PC version and aside from the Time Travel levels, the PC version is going to be quicker overall anyway. Having said that it's likely that PC/PS1 runs would be different categories anyway...

Have you got any videos/streaming capability at the moment? Also are you up for some SS races on SRL sometime if we're running the same version on the same console?

I prefer SS to segmented generally although as you can play levels at any time once you've completed the game it might be cool to have an IL table created which I'm more than happy to collaborate on if we're playing the same version and each of us has stronger levels.  I don't know how long an SS would take considering you have to take mistakes and riskiness of certain strats into account.  I did want to do one at ESA during bonus stream and see how long it would be, but that cut out before we could get it on.

Other than that I might get the PC version if I want to do serious SS runs for SDA since the loading time is cut out massively, IMO the cel-shading looks better on PC version and aside from the Time Travel levels, the PC version is going to be quicker overall anyway.   Having said that it's likely that PC/PS1 runs would be different categories anyway...

Have you got any videos/streaming capability at the moment? Also are you up for some SS races on SRL sometime if we're running the same version on the same console?

DanE

2013-07-25 01:01:24 pm

Fjölpärsk

Well, since you say you prefer SS I think you should go for it. It would totally like to se an SS but I'm not sure I would give it a try myself (at least not for now). I'll be happy to dicuss strats and routes for a SS as well as a segmented though!

I'm done with my segmented run now, which is going up for verification as soon as I'm done with my comments. With my calculations I ended up at about 57 min for all levels, so a SS on PS1 would probably add 10-20 min on that, depends on how risky strats you would use and how much all loading times would add to the total time. The PC version would probably be a little smoother for this, but as you said, the will most likley fall under different categories.

Streaming is something I've never done before (this is only my 2nd run ever) but I'll might find my way to Twitch/SRL in the future. Having that said I like the idea with a race... let's just say that I'll think about it Smiley

DanE

2013-07-25 01:28:50 pm

Fjölpärsk

Videos! Excuse the crappy quality, I'm afraid that it won't get much better than this.

Level 4:

Level 13:

RoboSparkle

2013-07-26 04:21:14 am

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

Looking good! I'll definitely be verifying this and as long as the other levels look similar I don't see any reason this wouldn't be accepted. Checked out the quality thread and I'm no expert by any means but certainly looks fine to me.

Quick questions on your vids:

Level 4: Happy to see you skip the flute in the same way I do - out of interest have you found a consistent way of making sure Sam doesn't get to you before you reach the pier? Cos for me it's always a 'run and hope' type deal.

Level 13: If you're not using the inflatable sheep for its intended purpose (not sure if that's consistent enough to use in SS, I haven't found a way to do it) then is it not quicker to use the rock to open the door?

DanE

2013-07-26 08:19:51 am

Fjölpärsk

That sounds terrific! These ones are two of the best, but I'm pretty sure that the rest are good enough too Smiley

Quote from RoboSparkle:

Level 4: Happy to see you skip the flute in the same way I do - out of interest have you found a consistent way of making sure Sam doesn't get to you before you reach the pier? Cos for me it's always a 'run and hope' type deal.

Like you said, it is about 50/50 that you'll reach it in time. You can probably start running (or walking more really) with the sheep a little earlier and still get away with it, but it's really a matter of luck. I take a small turn to the right once I jump up on the rock, that seemed to increase the chances of getting to the pier safely.

Quote from RoboSparkle:

Level 13: If you're not using the inflatable sheep for its intended purpose (not sure if that's consistent enough to use in SS, I haven't found a way to do it) then is it not quicker to use the rock to open the door?

Hmm, that may be possible. You wouldn't have to slap the mailbox and inflate the sheep, but it would take longer to get to the button with the rock over your head. But you should make up for that if you skip the mailbox on the other hand...good thinking mate!

That sounds terrific! These ones are two of the best, but I'm pretty sure that the rest are good enough too :)

[quote="RoboSparkle"]
Level 4: Happy to see you skip the flute in the same way I do - out of interest have you found a consistent way of making sure Sam doesn't get to you before you reach the pier?  Cos for me it's always a 'run and hope' type deal.
[/quote]

Like you said, it is about 50/50 that you'll reach it in time. You can probably start running (or walking more really) with the sheep a little earlier and still get away with it, but it's really a matter of luck. I take a small turn to the right once I jump up on the rock, that seemed to increase the chances of getting to the pier safely.

[quote="RoboSparkle"]Level 13: If you're not using the inflatable sheep for its intended purpose (not sure if that's consistent enough to use in SS, I haven't found a way to do it) then is it not quicker to use the rock to open the door?[/quote]

Hmm, that may be possible. You wouldn't have to slap the mailbox and inflate the sheep, but it would take longer to get to the button with the rock over your head. But you should make up for that if you skip the mailbox on the other hand...good thinking mate!

RoboSparkle

2013-07-26 10:17:09 am

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

No problem, that's what the forums are for! I'll be happy to look at other levels and see if there are any of my strats that may be faster, even if I'm SS-ing (I only know the rock on level 13 because I use the rock on the switch and the sheep to distract Sam and it's still pretty quick to get to the switch with the rock.

DanE

Edit history:

DanE: 2013-08-03 06:47:33 am

DanE: 2013-08-03 06:46:56 am

DanE: 2013-08-03 06:46:37 am

DanE: 2013-07-26 03:04:17 pm

2013-07-26 03:03:29 pm

Fjölpärsk

I'm happy to say that I just added the run for verification, but I won't upload any other videos for the moment. You'll get to see them in one way or another ofc, but in the mean time I'll some estimated times for all levels.
Please note that all times are based on starting the timer at the first frame of movement and stopping the timer when the sheep touches the ground, when Ralph starts breaking after a dash or stands still inside the goal etc.

Intro: 02:54
Level 1: 01:23
Level 2: 01:24
Level 3: 01:35
Level 4: 01:17
Level 5: 02:12
Level 6: 02:51
Level 7: 02:42
Level 8: 04:14
Level 9: 01:36
Level 10: 05:36
Level 11: 05:24
Level 12: 06:35
Level 13: 03:29
Level 14: 01:46
Level 15: 05:46
Level B1: 02:54
Level B2: 03:32

Run time: 57:10

DanE

2013-08-03 06:44:55 am

Fjölpärsk

Run is now available for verification! In order to celebrate this, here's Level 3 and Level 11.

Level 3:

Level 11:

Comments are, as always, appreciated.

RoboSparkle

2013-08-03 07:45:38 am

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

L3: Very happy that you have basically the same strats I do but with much cleaner execution.

L11: There's a deathwarp (not sure if it saves time though) after you use the robot to get you and the sheep up the lift at 3:22, you can drop into the pit in the next room and you should spawn on the same floor with the robot back where he was. Might be quicker than using the rod but I've not tested it yet.

In general: Do you know whether it is quicker to stop running by skidding to a halt or smashing into something? In each case you have a long animation to cool down but the smash is an instant stop. Probably only a difference of a few frame but I'd reckon it's worth knowing, just wondered if you'd ever tested it?

DanE

Edit history:

DanE: 2013-08-05 06:49:49 am

DanE: 2013-08-03 10:20:15 am

DanE: 2013-08-03 10:09:36 am

2013-08-03 10:09:12 am

Fjölpärsk

Quote from RoboSparkle:

L3: Very happy that you have basically the same strats I do but with much cleaner execution.

Yea, I think that strat is about as good as it gets. It is possible to sneak up behind Sam and attract a sheep from there, but that seems like a waste of time since it's hard to get close to him fast without being spotted.

Quote from RoboSparkle:

L11: There's a deathwarp (not sure if it saves time though) after you use the robot to get you and the sheep up the lift at 3:22, you can drop into the pit in the next room and you should spawn on the same floor with the robot back where he was. Might be quicker than using the rod but I've not tested it yet.

I think I did execute that one time during the recordings (by mistake), but I didn't think about the time it may save. Seems more like a trick that would go under death abuse though so I'm not sure if it would have been allowed in the same category as the rest Tongue

Do you got a different strat for this one, apart from the one mentioned above?

Quote from RoboSparkle:

In general: Do you know whether it is quicker to stop running by skidding to a halt or smashing into something? In each case you have a long animation to cool down but the smash is an instant stop. Probably only a difference of a few frame but I'd reckon it's worth knowing, just wondered if you'd ever tested it?

Skidding to a halt is preferred all days a week in my book. It gives you some time to straighten things up if you have the ability to do so (like turning around while your trying to stop, can be useful sometimes when you've run a bit to far) and it looks much better to. I did a quick test on this and it took 41 frames to start moving from a hit and 28 frames to start moving from a halt. I can only remember two hits that I did in the entire run (both unintentional) so I haven't got that much material to compare with, but I looked at two separete halt sequences and both of them clocked in at 28 frames. In conclusion: faceplanting takes more time to recover from, but the difference is minimal to say the least.

By the way, do you know when you will start streaming?

[quote="RoboSparkle"]L3: Very happy that you have basically the same strats I do but with much cleaner execution.[/quote]
Yea, I think that strat is about as good as it gets. It is possible to sneak up behind Sam and attract a sheep from there, but that seems like a waste of time since it's hard to get close to him fast without being spotted.

[quote="RoboSparkle"]L11: There's a deathwarp (not sure if it saves time though) after you use the robot to get you and the sheep up the lift at 3:22, you can drop into the pit in the next room and you should spawn on the same floor with the robot back where he was.  Might be quicker than using the rod but I've not tested it yet.[/quote]
I think I did execute that one time during the recordings (by mistake), but I didn't think about the time it may save. Seems more like a trick that would go under death abuse though so I'm not sure if it would have been allowed in the same category as the rest :P Do you got a different strat for this one, apart from the one mentioned above?

[quote="RoboSparkle"]In general:  Do you know whether it is quicker to stop running by skidding to a halt or smashing into something?  In each case you have a long animation to cool down but the smash is an instant stop.  Probably only a difference of a few frame but I'd reckon it's worth knowing, just wondered if you'd ever tested it?[/quote]
Skidding to a halt is preferred all days a week in my book. It gives you some time to straighten things up if you have the ability to do so (like turning around while your trying to stop, can be useful sometimes when you've run a bit to far) and it looks much better to. I did a quick test on this and it took 41 frames to start moving from a hit and 28 frames to start moving from a halt. I can only remember two hits that I did in the entire run (both unintentional) so I haven't got that much material to compare with, but I looked at two separete halt sequences and both of them clocked in at 28 frames. In conclusion: faceplanting takes more time to recover from, but the difference is minimal to say the least.

By the way, do you know when you will start streaming?

RoboSparkle

2013-08-03 06:11:31 pm

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

Quote from DanE:

Quote from RoboSparkle:

L3: Very happy that you have basically the same strats I do but with much cleaner execution.

Yea, I think that strat is about as good as it gets. It is possible to sneak up behind Sam and attract a sheep from there, but that seems like a waste of time since it's hard to get close to him fast without being spotted.

I've tried that strat and I'm positive that it will always be slower than luring a sheep out with the lettuce.

Quote from DanE:

Quote from RoboSparkle:

L11: There's a deathwarp (not sure if it saves time though) after you use the robot to get you and the sheep up the lift at 3:22, you can drop into the pit in the next room and you should spawn on the same floor with the robot back where he was. Might be quicker than using the rod but I've not tested it yet.

I think I did execute that one time during the recordings (by mistake), but I didn't think about the time it may save. Seems more like a trick that would go under death abuse though so I'm not sure if it would have been allowed in the same category as the rest Tongue

Do you got a different strat for this one, apart from the one mentioned above?

Only the deathwarping really, I tried a few different things to see if there were faster methods than the intended one but nothing came of it. I'm pretty sure death abuse wouldn't constitute a different category as it's such a minor difference and in any case "death" is pretty much a game mechanic anyway since it's designed to happen all the time. (see: ANY Looney Tunes cartoon) It's not like you're reloading a save as a result of death or anything either.

Re: Skidding vs. Faceplant: It did look pretty close although the figures put Faceplanting at 40ish% slower than Skidding. Plus there is the benefit of having control while slowing. Shame as imo it's looks funnier to stop dashing by smashing into things.

Quote from DanE:

By the way. do you know when you will start streaming?

Soon, I have a new cable for my PS2 which should hopefully make it work properly with my HD PVR and then as long as that goes well I'll be up this month Smiley

[quote="DanE"][quote="RoboSparkle"]L3: Very happy that you have basically the same strats I do but with much cleaner execution.[/quote]
Yea, I think that strat is about as good as it gets. It is possible to sneak up behind Sam and attract a sheep from there, but that seems like a waste of time since it's hard to get close to him fast without being spotted.[/quote]

I've tried that strat and I'm positive that it will always be slower than luring a sheep out with the lettuce.

[quote="DanE"]
[quote="RoboSparkle"]L11: There's a deathwarp (not sure if it saves time though) after you use the robot to get you and the sheep up the lift at 3:22, you can drop into the pit in the next room and you should spawn on the same floor with the robot back where he was.  Might be quicker than using the rod but I've not tested it yet.[/quote]
I think I did execute that one time during the recordings (by mistake), but I didn't think about the time it may save. Seems more like a trick that would go under death abuse though so I'm not sure if it would have been allowed in the same category as the rest :P Do you got a different strat for this one, apart from the one mentioned above?[/quote]

Only the deathwarping really, I tried a few different things to see if there were faster methods than the intended one but nothing came of it.  I'm pretty sure death abuse wouldn't constitute a different category as it's such a minor difference and in any case "death" is pretty much a game mechanic anyway since it's designed to happen all the time. (see: ANY Looney Tunes cartoon) It's not like you're reloading a save as a result of death or anything either.

Re: Skidding vs. Faceplant: It did look pretty close although the figures put Faceplanting at 40ish% slower than Skidding.  Plus there is the benefit of having control while slowing.  Shame as imo it's looks funnier to stop dashing by smashing into things.

[quote="DanE"]By the way. do you know when you will start streaming?[/quote]

Soon, I have a new cable for my PS2 which should hopefully make it work properly with my HD PVR and then as long as that goes well I'll be up this month :)

DanE

2013-08-05 07:08:56 am

Fjölpärsk

I'm not that familiar with death abuse and the rules surrounding the technice so the deathwarp on Level 11 might be OK after all when I think about it (if it saves time, haven't tried it myself either). I never thought about looking for those types of skips myself, but if there are a number of levels where DA can be deployed I think that it could be a separate category.

Looking forward to the stream, I'm really curious about how fast a SS run could be Smiley

Slowbrofist

2013-11-21 08:36:09 pm

Thanks both of you guys for this thread, I've been reading the segmented run information and I think I'll try doing some full game runs of this, even if they never turn perfect I think this is a fun game to chill out to. I don't really have a working PS1 or PS2 right now so I'll probably just do runs on the emulator I'm using for practice, anyone else did any full runs and not only segmented/ILs?

DanE

2013-11-23 03:42:00 am

Fjölpärsk

Nice to see that there are other runners around who are interested in this game! RoboSparkle was thinking about doing a SS run (as mentioned here in the thread), but I think that project have been laid aside for now at least. I myself have not tried any SS runs, but I might give it a shot just for fun if I have the time for it. It would probably take some time due to loading times and the fact that some strats used in the IL are way to risky for a SS, but for us who understand and appreciate the game I think it would be enjoyable to watch no matter what Smiley

However, if you're planning on doing any runs on the actual console, do NOT get a PS2 Slim. I did my run on a old PS2 which worked like a charm, but on a slim version the graphics tend to freak out most of the time. It would have been great to be able to play it on a slim and see if any loading times could be shortened just by playing on a newer console, but that seems to be out of the question for me at least.

Slowbrofist

2013-11-23 06:35:14 pm

I was messing around and showing the people watching me the game briefly, and I had not watched all levels you did on your submission, but I saw what you did on level 5 and I wondered if it would not be faster to do it the way I've been doing it http://www.twitch.tv/slowbrofist/b/482199547?t=91m20s
The advantage is that first off you don't need to run back after picking up lettuce, second you just need one lettuce overall
My execution might not be perfect but I do think it would be faster

DanE

2013-11-25 01:06:03 pm

Fjölpärsk

You're right about that strat being faster than mine, but actually, RoboSparkle came up with a faster and easier strat that you should check out. I don't think that we have any footage of it right now, but he mentioned it in the verification briefly, and I have tried it myself with great success.

Quote from RoboSparkle:

However I THINK it's possible to complete this level quicker by collecting the lettuce, launching yourself to the start of the level with the catapult and then using the lettuce to lure the sheep past Sam in the other direction (and it may be possible to just run back past Sam once you have the lettuce).

How much time it can save is hard to say since I haven't done any serious attempts, but I am sure that you will save time by doing this. A great found really Smiley

Slowbrofist

2013-11-28 07:57:55 pm

interesting, I'll probably do some runs of this by next year or something, between learning other games I want to and IRL stuff it'll have to wait a bit, but thanks