Shatterhand

2011-04-22 07:36:17 pm

Been playing it recently, and thinking of doing a run. The final stage sucks though, with the big Metal Storm gravity switching section.

Now you may be wondering, what's the best robot helper to get? I don't know the answer yet. But based on the TAS, it may be faster to just avoid all of them. Though there are certain parts where it might be worth it in a non-assisted run, like the underwater boss and the gravity boss (no clue on their names) and the elevator.

The red vests seem to be way more important, as well as having the necessary money to get them and also to get healed. A run of this game would involve a lot of taking hits and running through enemies.

There's a lot of planning and strategy necessary, both in terms of the route and exactly which items and enemies you pick up and kill. I'd love to hear any thoughts or advice on what's best.

Thread title:

cyghfer

Edit history:

cyghfer: 2011-04-22 08:08:25 pm

2011-04-22 08:08:06 pm

josh said he's going to be working on this run and i have a keen interest in seeing a good run of this game as well, it's one of my very favorites on the system. i would say try and model the TAS as much as possible, as i don't remember it doing anything that looked impossible on console, and then i and other people can provide input for sections where you might think of deviating from TAS material.

Kiyura

2011-04-22 11:30:42 pm

Wiiaboo

I've played Shatterhand a lot and can probably help out as well if you get this off the ground. I considered doing a run myself, but it's just about lowest priority for me at this point, and I'm really glad to see that someone else is interested in doing it. I think it's one of the best games for NES and a pretty gaping hole in our archive.

UraniumAnchor

2012-03-03 01:59:36 pm

Not a walrus

I've been trying to pick this up for SGDQ and maybe to do a site run of it. I just managed to beat it for the first time, and it seems to me like the best robot helpers in terms of speed are triple beta (bombs) and the one with the bouncing shots (alpha-beta-beta I think?). Both of them do a lot of damage to bosses, especially if you can manage to punch them at the same time, though I think triple beta is more generally useful. It might be worth picking up the super armor for a couple of spots as well, but I'm still debating that.

In general, route planning seems to be the big key to this game. From what I've seen the TAS uses a fair bit of AI manipulation to get ideal fights, as well as really precise positioning, so I'm not sure trying to model all of the boss fights off the TAS is a realistic goal.

feasel

2012-03-05 12:48:47 pm

difficult and stupidly random

Glad to see somebody picking up this game. Another under-appreciated NES classic that needs championing.

UraniumAnchor

2012-03-05 12:51:10 pm

Not a walrus

Well, right now my record is 40 minutes, but that was only my second completion. I died right before the checkpoint in the final stage, so that cost me like 6 minutes also.

Target time should definitely be below 25 minutes, but by how far I'm not sure.

l34ssl3oost

2012-03-05 09:07:57 pm

Goof luck with your run, excited to see a run of this

holydiver42

2012-03-06 12:27:22 pm

Everybody DANCE!

I am in approval of a run of this game. I can't help in planning, but I can try to provide motivation and whatnot.

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2012-03-27 02:22:48 am

UraniumAnchor: 2012-03-24 02:40:08 am

2012-03-23 12:33:53 am

Not a walrus

So far I've decided on this route:

Gravity level, finish with two beta. First because the boss is a random dick asshole and doesn't really benefit from having a robot, and the red vest is right outside his door.
Fire level, pick up two more beta before the elevator, then one beta at the top and one more just before the boss, giving you the super suit to kill the boss quickly. Also second because the first section is annoying to get through quickly because of the random guys in jetpacks.
Ice or sub level. Nothing really notable here, they're just more annoying and difficult than the factory level. During ice level pick up three beta to quickly kill the boss with bombs.
Factory level. Nothing special here, probably the easiest stage and boss, so it happens last. Finish with two beta.

If you enter the final level with two beta, you can pick up enough beta during the level to have the super suit for the first two minibosses, with two more to pick up before the third miniboss. This means you only need to pick up 4 of the 6 remaining beta before the final boss in order to have the super suit for the final boss.

The problem with this is that collecting all the beta for the robots/suits might end up using more time than a truly skilled run would save, but the game is pretty finicky and the TAS strats are completely unreasonable for real time, so I might end up modifying this to be less pickup-heavy.

I have yet to complete a run without dying, though, so I'm still not sure how good of a goal 25 minutes is.

Edit:

03-24-12 - 31:08 w/4 deaths
03-26-12 - 28:33 w/3 deaths

So far I've decided on this route:

Gravity level, finish with two beta. First because the boss is a random dick asshole and doesn't really benefit from having a robot, and the red vest is right outside his door.
Fire level, pick up two more beta before the elevator, then one beta at the top and one more just before the boss, giving you the super suit to kill the boss quickly. Also second because the first section is annoying to get through quickly because of the random guys in jetpacks.
Ice or sub level. Nothing really notable here, they're just more annoying and difficult than the factory level. During ice level pick up three beta to quickly kill the boss with bombs.
Factory level. Nothing special here, probably the easiest stage and boss, so it happens last. Finish with two beta.

If you enter the final level with two beta, you can pick up enough beta during the level to have the super suit for the first two minibosses, with two more to pick up before the third miniboss. This means you only need to pick up 4 of the 6 remaining beta before the final boss in order to have the super suit for the final boss.

The problem with this is that collecting all the beta for the robots/suits might end up using more time than a truly skilled run would save, but the game is pretty finicky and the TAS strats are completely unreasonable for real time, so I might end up modifying this to be less pickup-heavy.

I have yet to complete a run without dying, though, so I'm still not sure how good of a goal 25 minutes is.

Edit:

03-24-12 - 31:08 w/4 deaths
03-26-12 - 28:33 w/3 deaths

AdrienS

2012-03-25 11:07:19 pm

Damn, I absolutely love this game. I support a run of this and would help in anyway possible. Definitely video your progress.

UraniumAnchor

2012-05-01 11:06:48 pm

Not a walrus

http://www.twitch.tv/uraniumanchor/b/316856623

Shatterhand in 25:39, with a really costly death that put me +1:36 at one point.

Sub 24 as a goal?

Attachment:

shatterhand2539.png

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2012-05-20 11:52:55 pm

UraniumAnchor: 2012-05-20 11:49:52 pm

UraniumAnchor: 2012-05-20 06:57:13 pm

UraniumAnchor: 2012-05-20 03:29:56 pm

UraniumAnchor: 2012-05-20 01:48:12 pm

2012-05-20 12:38:28 pm

Not a walrus

23:47 today with some really nasty errors.

http://video.uranium-anchor.com/play/166/

guestyguest

2012-05-26 12:41:44 am

This, is awesome. Just voicing my support: really looking forward to the run.

UraniumAnchor

2012-06-10 12:56:20 am

Not a walrus

I plan on working on this once I get all the SGDQ videos squared away, and I was pondering how you'd define low% for this game. I think the most reasonable is 'no robot pickups, no platforms', since banning all coin pickups (which are only used on the platforms) would either require a lot of sitting around or some ridiculous dodging. Does anybody else have an opinion on that?

Emptyeye

2012-06-10 07:30:58 am

Talk to the Hand

Is this a game where "Low%" is really feasible or reasonable?

I'm thinking of the classic Mega Man series here, where as far as I know, Buster-only, while a popular category (And in that series, probably the analog to low%), is also not SDA-legal because "The game gives you the weapons for nothing. For our purposes, not using them doesn't make a separate category, it just makes you an idiot." This isn't quite the same thing, but it's similar to me--if you're not willing to do the dodging/waiting around, then why wouldn't you use the coins you've picked up?

scaryice

2012-06-10 04:49:55 pm

It's different than Mega Man because you don't have to pick up the weapons. If Contra has a low pct run on SDA, then I don't see why Shatterhand couldn't as well. No robots/platforms seems like the logical definition to me as well.

UraniumAnchor

2014-07-07 01:29:02 pm

Not a walrus

Bit of a necro bump but a few people (myself, Klaige, Guhbadoo) have been working on this game recently so here's some updated info:

1) Gravity stage is still first because the boss is RNG gate #1, so better to get it out of the way early.
2) Fire stage isn't second any more because there's a way to manipulate the jet packs to scroll off the screen and not bother you, basically making this entire level a skill check. Factory stage second because the jacket (left over from the Gravity stage) is really useful in the opening section.
3) Water stage cannot be last since you want to enter the final stage with at least one beta, possibly two. There's some debate over whether or not getting the suit for the first refight is actually faster, but it's most certainly more consistent and safer. This means that the current route is Gravity->Factory (leave with two beta)->Fire->Water->Submarine (leave with one or two beta).
4) Klaige and I both agree that a submission would have to be sub-22 with current known strats, probably 21:50 or lower.

Last I checked the current record is 22:38 on an emulator by Guhbadoo, but I know Klaige has already started working on this again and his current record isn't (wasn't?) much slower than that at 22:46.

Bit of a necro bump but a few people (myself, Klaige, Guhbadoo) have been working on this game recently so here's some updated info:

1) Gravity stage is still first because the boss is RNG gate #1, so better to get it out of the way early.
2) Fire stage isn't second any more because there's a way to manipulate the jet packs to scroll off the screen and not bother you, basically making this entire level a skill check. Factory stage second because the jacket (left over from the Gravity stage) is really useful in the opening section.
3) Water stage cannot be last since you want to enter the final stage with at least one beta, possibly two. There's some debate over whether or not getting the suit for the first refight is actually faster, but it's most certainly more consistent and safer. This means that the current route is Gravity->Factory (leave with two beta)->Fire->Water->Submarine (leave with one or two beta).
4) Klaige and I both agree that a submission would have to be sub-22 with current known strats, probably 21:50 or lower.

Last I checked the current record is 22:38 on an emulator by Guhbadoo, but I know Klaige has already started working on this again and his current record isn't (wasn't?) much slower than that at 22:46.

Dish

Edit history:

Dish: 2015-01-11 12:39:10 am

Dish: 2015-01-11 12:39:05 am

Dish: 2015-01-11 12:38:55 am

2015-01-09 03:25:40 am

I'm just getting into speedrunning myself and want to pick this game up, as it's an NES game with phenomenal game feel. Mostly just voicing my support at this point, but hopefully I'll have some respectable times in the future to contribute!

EDIT:

Quote:

2) Fire stage isn't second any more because there's a way to manipulate the jet packs to scroll off the screen and not bother you, basically making this entire level a skill check. Factory stage second because the jacket (left over from the Gravity stage) is really useful in the opening section.

How exactly is this possible?

Tarbash

2016-05-16 11:22:14 am

Almost feels like necroing because of how unpopular the game is at the moment, but I felt like commenting on the discussion about the optimal run time.

I have been doing some work on the game lately and with a combination of new strats and some granny strats for consistency I managed to get the time down to 21:30. The run featured almost the best gravity jerk RNG you can get, but also a mistake of my own that cost around 8-10 seconds probably. On top of that, I didn't get the quick kills for Pogoborgs, Cyborgape and Harptune and I didn't get anywhere near the best pattern for the final boss.

All in all, I do feel like sub 21:20 could be obtained with a god run so there's still room for improvement whether it's new or old runners becoming interested in the game again. The game has somewhat horrible reputation for all the RNG, but the more I play it, the more I feel like you can somewhat manipulate most of the stuff. Hope to see more people picking up the game in the future as it's really not all too hard to learn.

Almost feels like necroing because of how unpopular the game is at the moment, but I felt like commenting on the discussion about the optimal run time.

I have been doing some work on the game lately and with a combination of new strats and some granny strats for consistency I managed to get the time down to 21:30. The run featured almost the best gravity jerk RNG you can get, but also a mistake of my own that cost around 8-10 seconds probably. On top of that, I didn't get the quick kills for Pogoborgs, Cyborgape and Harptune and I didn't get anywhere near the best pattern for the final boss.

All in all, I do feel like sub 21:20 could be obtained with a god run so there's still room for improvement whether it's new or old runners becoming interested in the game again. The game has somewhat horrible reputation for all the RNG, but the more I play it, the more I feel like you can somewhat manipulate most of the stuff. Hope to see more people picking up the game in the future as it's really not all too hard to learn.

puwexil

2016-05-21 02:22:25 pm

Professional Second Banana

Nice! Do you have a video of this run?

Tarbash

Edit history:

Tarbash: 2016-06-07 01:58:34 am

Tarbash: 2016-06-02 01:12:42 pm

2016-05-21 03:50:05 pm

It's an emulator run so not really submittable. Hoping to get enough spare cash over the summer to finally get an NTSC console as well.

puwexil

2016-06-02 04:47:56 pm

Professional Second Banana

Good stuff - I like the new robot part routing. Hope you're able to get a console setup soon.

Tarbash

2016-06-03 07:58:44 am

I got tired of getting screwed over by RNG bombs in the autoscroller so I started picking up an extra letter before that. It's not actually a time loss at all as if you land the grenade on the first spawn of the pod before the scrolling part as it instakills the pod and you don't have to wait for the two spawns to come all the way down. The sword robot was just a random idea I tried out because I sucked at landing every grenade on Harptune. Robo suit for the final stage on the other hand just allows you to go ham through the sections without having to think whether your robot can take it or not. Might be slower (haven't really even tried the final stage starting with just one letter), but no need to risk runs with good RNG until the time has been pushed down a lot more.

My sum of bests is getting really close to sub 21:00 and will probably go under it once I get a punching kill on Gravitus refight too so in theory the time could be much, much faster. It's just so hard to get good RNG from Gravity 1, Cyborgape, Gravity 2 and Grover all in one run. There's also several strats which save a few seconds that I'm not using at this point; like running through the two mecha Zangiefs and jumping over the bullets of the two guys after that in Area D or going through Area B with no healing at all or taking the first red vest in the final stage immediately and risk losing one charge to a grenade instead of running back for it.

It might not be the most fascinating speedgame because you just damageboost through everything instead of fighting as I've been told by several people who tried it out. I still hope more people pick it up as it deserves to get the WR pushed down even more.

I got tired of getting screwed over by RNG bombs in the autoscroller so I started picking up an extra letter before that. It's not actually a time loss at all as if you land the grenade on the first spawn of the pod before the scrolling part as it instakills the pod and you don't have to wait for the two spawns to come all the way down. The sword robot was just a random idea I tried out because I sucked at landing every grenade on Harptune. Robo suit for the final stage on the other hand just allows you to go ham through the sections without having to think whether your robot can take it or not. Might be slower (haven't really even tried the final stage starting with just one letter), but no need to risk runs with good RNG until the time has been pushed down a lot more.

My sum of bests is getting really close to sub 21:00 and will probably go under it once I get a punching kill on Gravitus refight too so in theory the time could be much, much faster. It's just so hard to get good RNG from Gravity 1, Cyborgape, Gravity 2 and Grover all in one run. There's also several strats which save a few seconds that I'm not using at this point; like running through the two mecha Zangiefs and jumping over the bullets of the two guys after that in Area D or going through Area B with no healing at all or taking the first red vest in the final stage immediately and risk losing one charge to a grenade instead of running back for it.

It might not be the most fascinating speedgame because you just damageboost through everything instead of fighting as I've been told by several people who tried it out. I still hope more people pick it up as it deserves to get the WR pushed down even more.

PJ

2016-06-05 10:54:42 pm

Is PJ

Good work on this! Shatterhand is a sweet game, but I think the really crippling RNG is a big deterrent to a lot of runners. Good on you for pushing through it! This game deserves a really good run.

When Klaige was at my place about a month ago, he had me play Shatterhand and I managed to like...fall through a floor or wall or something? Maybe you can look into this and figure out what caused it. Could be potentially useful, I imagine. I was unable to replicate it on emulator after like an hour of trying, but maybe you might have some luck.

https://www.twitch.tv/pjdicesare/v/63548671

Tarbash

Edit history:

Tarbash: 2016-06-06 05:52:14 pm

Tarbash: 2016-06-06 04:31:44 pm

Tarbash: 2016-06-06 04:28:40 pm

Tarbash: 2016-06-06 04:21:36 pm

Tarbash: 2016-06-06 04:18:39 pm

Tarbash: 2016-06-06 04:14:31 pm

2016-06-06 04:10:23 pm

Thanks!

Hmm... that's interesting. You can use a similar trick in the first stage to 'cut the corners' for minor time saves, but I never came to think that you could use it there as well. I would imagine you have to do it mid air in the third stage so it's even harder. In the first stage you just try to fall down as close to the platform as possible and press in the opposite direction and you can fall past two platforms without touching them, but you often still land on the second platform so it must be damn precise.

On a second note: Got the red vest punch kill on Gravitus #2 and the Grover pattern where he does nothing but uses ranged attack in the same run. Messed up earlier in the stage and Gravitus pattern was not optimal as he used one gravity flip first and flied around for a while, but it was still a 6 second gold in final stage. Too bad I was so tired that the rest of the run was just garbage and I finished it to end the set of attempts with a full run. That makes the sum of bests 20:58 now so definitely a lot of room to improve if someone's up for intense grinding.

-edit- Got it once like after a minute of trying and never got it again... good thing it doesn't save THAT much time, at least in that spot. Need to think if there's any other place where it could work.

Thanks!

Hmm... that's interesting. You can use a similar trick in the first stage to 'cut the corners' for minor time saves, but I never came to think that you could use it there as well. I would imagine you have to do it mid air in the third stage so it's even harder. In the first stage you just try to fall down as close to the platform as possible and press in the opposite direction and you can fall past two platforms without touching them, but you often still land on the second platform so it must be damn precise.

On a second note: Got the red vest punch kill on Gravitus #2 and the Grover pattern where he does nothing but uses ranged attack in the same run. Messed up earlier in the stage and Gravitus pattern was not optimal as he used one gravity flip first and flied around for a while, but it was still a 6 second gold in final stage. Too bad I was so tired that the rest of the run was just garbage and I finished it to end the set of attempts with a full run. That makes the sum of bests 20:58 now so definitely a lot of room to improve if someone's up for intense grinding.

-edit- Got it once like after a minute of trying and never got it again... good thing it doesn't save THAT much time, at least in that spot. Need to think if there's any other place where it could work.