SGDQ 2016 Tech Feedback

2016-07-29 02:59:53 pm

Hi, I'm the Tech Coordinator for GDQ. This thread is for feedback for anything tech related for AGDQ2016. For non-tech related issues please go to here. Feel free to post concerns in this thread for tech, but please read through this post first to avoid asking answered questions. Below I have listed most of the concerns that I am already aware of. Thank you very much your you time and feedback. There are many problems and solutions that we don't know and would like to make an effort to fix as much as possible. The tech was very smooth at SGDQ2016 largely do to the feedback we received prior to it.

OSSC, RGB, and Capture Cards
We would like to switch to a lagless LCD setup, so please fill out the poll below. Read the hidden section for information why we want to switch the setup:
https://goo.gl/forms/vsoCaVbzFiCGQ8c93

        For future events, we are considering using the OSSC upscaler in our video flow. This would allow all of our video to go as HDMI to the Stream PC which would mean we could use a single 4x capture card to get all PC, HD, and SD game video. We already have the HDMI matrix to support this. The main reason we want to do this is because it would allow us to use better HD capture cards that have better drivers and are more stable. It would also be fewer cards in the stream computer which would further help stability. The stream PC blue screened a number of times at SGDQ2016 because of the driver stability of our current Micomsoft capture cards.
        The problem is that the OSSC is RGB only which is not readily available in the US. We would have to obtain RGB mods of all consoles and RGB TVs, which would also mean that the TVs in the stream room will be different than the ones in the practice room. Also the switch to RGB would be a huge capital investments, however we have been slowly investing into this changeover over the past year and we think we can afford the rest for AGDQ2017. This change would also result in a small improvement on the stream’s quality.

        LCD vs CRT:
        Here’s the main catch. The setup will involve a lot of splitters and transcoder to support all of this and may likely lead to more tech problems than they would help. However if we use low latency LCDs (sub-frame lag, aka lagless) instead of RGB CRT TVs, then the complexity issue is significantly reduced. Playing on LCDs would also mean the PC, SD console, and HD console runners can all play on the same setup which would significantly reduce setup times.
        Of course this means that runners would have to play on LCDs. We had a few runners play on similar setups, and they did not notice any difference in such a setup. We realize that even though there is no lag, some runners may be discouraged playing a different type of TV that they are used to. Another issue is that the LCD TV will be a bit smaller than the CRT TVs we’ve been using.
        We don’t want to switch over to LCDs without the acceptance from the community, so please take some time and submit a response for the poll. We are only considering this because there seems to be more acceptance of being able to play on LCDs that are lagless. We believe this would be an improvement overall if this is accepted.

Camera
        The couch camera had bad aliasing again (same as previous two events). As mentioned last time, OBS’s downscaling algorithm is likely the problem. However OBS Studio 0.15 was recently released that has a fix for this issue.
        The PC camera angle seemed to be a big improvement over the past marathons. We had obtained a new camera with a wider FOV to enable this.

New Hardware
        The timer box has failed to work yet again (to nobody but my surprise). We had a number of communication issues between the timer server and the timer box. We are looking into a couple potential workarounds for the next event. We will likely break the footpedal functionality out so that if the timerbox fails again, then at least the foot pedal is still functional.
        At AGDQ2016 we had trouble capturing laptops but we believe we have resolved that issue with better EDID control at SGDQ2016.

Audio
        Huge shoutouts to PowerUp Audio for running the mixer at SGDQ again. Their work really shows and they made a strong effort to listen to people’s feedback during the event so we did not have many issues. They unfortunately will not be able to join us for AGDQ2017. AGDQ is during an extremely busy time of the year for them and they can’t afford to take time off for us. We are currently investigating possible alternatives.
        One major change was that every runner had a unique audio feed so that we could support having 4-way races and coop runs with commentary. Also we had more mics in general for interviews and the like.
        Side note: we have pretty much maxed our mixer (X32) out. If we want to add more audio outputs, we would need to invest some major capital.

Cables
        Our main issue is just that it’s still hard to create plans for the cable diagrams and generate a list of what cables we still need of what length. We’ve been using Draw.io but it’s not really ideal for what we want. Most other tools out there really just seem like flowchart diagrams and still not really what we need. The main thing is that we need to have connection types, not just object types. I might end up programming something custom for this but it surprises me that there isn’t anything like this already.

Stream Layout
        We took a lot of feedback from AGDQ2016 and the new layouts at SGDQ2016 reflected that. We are still investigating things to change and add, especially in the break/intermission scene. Overall though, we are really happy with the improvements to the layout.

Cropping
        We actually did cropping this time. (I can’t believe it actually happened.) I wrote a custom plugin for OBS Studio (with a lot of help from Jim) to alleviate the problems that prohibited us from being able to crop. It was fast and we rarely had issues with overcropping. There were still some major drawbacks with the current implementation and I may have to create a more advanced plugin to do what we want.

Thread title:

Hi, I'm the Tech Coordinator for GDQ. This thread is for feedback for anything tech related for AGDQ2016. For non-tech related issues please go to [url=https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/sgdq_2016_feedback_and_critique_.html]here[/url]. Feel free to post concerns in this thread for tech, but please read through this post first to avoid asking answered questions. Below I have listed most of the concerns that I am already aware of. Thank you very much your you time and feedback. There are many problems and solutions that we don't know and would like to make an effort to fix as much as possible. The tech was very smooth at SGDQ2016 largely do to the feedback we received prior to it.

[size="16"][u][b]OSSC, RGB, and Capture Cards[/b][/u][/size]
We would like to switch to a lagless LCD setup, so please fill out the poll below. Read the hidden section for information why we want to switch the setup:
[b][url]https://goo.gl/forms/vsoCaVbzFiCGQ8c93[/url][/b]
[hidden][t]For future events, we are considering using the OSSC upscaler in our video flow. This would allow all of our video to go as HDMI to the Stream PC which would mean we could use a single 4x capture card to get all PC, HD, and SD game video. We already have the HDMI matrix to support this. The main reason we want to do this is because it would allow us to use better HD capture cards that have better drivers and are more stable. It would also be fewer cards in the stream computer which would further help stability. The stream PC blue screened a number of times at SGDQ2016 because of the driver stability of our current Micomsoft capture cards.
[t]The problem is that the OSSC is RGB only which is not readily available in the US. We would have to obtain RGB mods of all consoles and RGB TVs, which would also mean that the TVs in the stream room will be different than the ones in the practice room. Also the switch to RGB would be a huge capital investments, however we have been slowly investing into this changeover over the past year and we think we can afford the rest for AGDQ2017. This change would also result in a small improvement on the stream’s quality.

[t][u][b]LCD vs CRT:[/b][/u]
[t]Here’s the main catch. The setup will involve a lot of splitters and transcoder to support all of this and may likely lead to more tech problems than they would help. However if we use low latency LCDs (sub-frame lag, aka lagless) instead of RGB CRT TVs, then the complexity issue is significantly reduced. Playing on LCDs would also mean the PC, SD console, and HD console runners can all play on the same setup which would significantly reduce setup times.
[t]Of course this means that runners would have to play on LCDs. We had a few runners play on similar setups, and they did not notice any difference in such a setup. We realize that even though there is no lag, some runners may be discouraged playing a different type of TV that they are used to. Another issue is that the LCD TV will be a bit smaller than the CRT TVs we’ve been using.
[t]We don’t want to switch over to LCDs without the acceptance from the community, so please take some time and submit a response for [url=https://goo.gl/forms/vsoCaVbzFiCGQ8c93]the poll[/url]. We are only considering this because there seems to be more acceptance of being able to play on LCDs that are lagless. We believe this would be an improvement overall if this is accepted.[/hidden]

[size="16"][u][b]Camera[/b][/u][/size]
[t]The couch camera had bad aliasing again (same as previous two events). As mentioned last time, OBS’s downscaling algorithm is likely the problem. However OBS Studio 0.15 was recently released that has a fix for this issue.
[t]The PC camera angle seemed to be a big improvement over the past marathons. We had obtained a new camera with a wider FOV to enable this.

[size="16"][u][b]New Hardware[/b][/u][/size]
[t]The timer box has failed to work yet again (to nobody but my surprise). We had a number of communication issues between the timer server and the timer box. We are looking into a couple potential workarounds for the next event. We will likely break the footpedal functionality out so that if the timerbox fails again, then at least the foot pedal is still functional.
[t]At AGDQ2016 we had trouble capturing laptops but we believe we have resolved that issue with better EDID control at SGDQ2016.

[size="16"][u][b]Audio[/b][/u][/size]
[t]Huge shoutouts to PowerUp Audio for running the mixer at SGDQ again. Their work really shows and they made a strong effort to listen to people’s feedback during the event so we did not have many issues. They unfortunately will not be able to join us for AGDQ2017. AGDQ is during an extremely busy time of the year for them and they can’t afford to take time off for us. We are currently investigating possible alternatives.
[t]One major change was that every runner had a unique audio feed so that we could support having 4-way races and coop runs with commentary. Also we had more mics in general for interviews and the like.
[t]Side note: we have pretty much maxed our mixer (X32) out. If we want to add more audio outputs, we would need to invest some major capital.

[size="16"][u][b]Cables[/b][/u][/size]
[t]Our main issue is just that it’s still hard to create plans for the cable diagrams and generate a list of what cables we still need of what length. We’ve been using Draw.io but it’s not really ideal for what we want. Most other tools out there really just seem like flowchart diagrams and still not really what we need. The main thing is that we need to have connection types, not just object types. I might end up programming something custom for this but it surprises me that there isn’t anything like this already.

[size="16"][u][b]Stream Layout[/b][/u][/size]
[t]We took a lot of feedback from AGDQ2016 and the new layouts at SGDQ2016 reflected that. We are still investigating things to change and add, especially in the break/intermission scene. Overall though, we are really happy with the improvements to the layout.

[size="16"][u][b]Cropping[/b][/u][/size]
[t]We actually did cropping this time. (I can’t believe it actually happened.) I wrote a custom plugin for OBS Studio (with a lot of help from Jim) to alleviate the problems that prohibited us from being able to crop. It was fast and we rarely had issues with overcropping. There were still some major drawbacks with the current implementation and I may have to create a more advanced plugin to do what we want.

TestRunner

2016-07-29 03:01:33 pm

This post is reserved, and will be used to summarize comments that everyone may be interested in reading, as the thread grows.

trumez

2016-07-29 03:56:12 pm

Super Mario World

Hey guys, congrats on another successful GDQ! I just have a couple comments about all the tech stuff, mostly pertaining to what I experienced during my run.

Hardware
The only real issue I had with hardware was that when I said I needed one of your SNES's to play on for our race, the one I was given did not work and I ended up having to use a friend's. I've also heard some other people talk about similar situations in the practice room, where the same person would receive the same broken console multiple times. This isn't a huge issue at all, but it just added to setup time for the marathon, which I know everyone is always trying to minimize.

Video Setup
The only comment I have about the video setup for our race, which you can maybe just chalk up to my ignorance of how your setup works, is that there appeared to be several times during setup where everything would look fine, but then someone would change something and then have to fix everything on our TVs. There were a couple times where Aaron, Bramz, and I would all be able to see our TVs and warmup, but then a button would be pressed and suddenly all three of our TVs would have Bramz's video, or everyone but Aaron would have no video, which would then have to be corrected. This once again was not a big problem, but just added a decent amount to the time it took to start the race.

Audio Setup
I just wanted to say that PowerUp Audio did a really great job with the audio setup. We were all asked several times if we needed any of our levels to be adjusted, and they instantly fixed any problems we might have had. No issues

Overall, I would say that all these comments are pretty small in the grand scheme of things, and that it seemed to me that this GDQ ran pretty smoothly for the most part. I had a great time attending and doing my run, and look forward to attending future events.

Hey guys, congrats on another successful GDQ! I  just have a couple comments about all the tech stuff, mostly pertaining to what I experienced during my run.

[b][u] Hardware [/u][/b]
     The only real issue I had with hardware was that when I said I needed one of your SNES's to play on for our race, the one I was given did not work and I ended up having to use a friend's. I've also heard some other people talk about similar situations in the practice room, where the same person would receive the same broken console multiple times. This isn't a huge issue at all, but it just added to setup time for the marathon, which I know everyone is always trying to minimize.

[b][u] Video Setup [/u][/b]
     The only comment I have about the video setup for our race, which you can maybe just chalk up to my ignorance of how your setup works, is that there appeared to be several times during setup where everything would look fine, but then someone would change something and then have to fix everything on our TVs. There were a couple times where Aaron, Bramz, and I would all be able to see our TVs and warmup, but then a button would be pressed and suddenly all three of our TVs would have Bramz's video, or everyone but Aaron would have no video, which would then have to be corrected. This once again was not a big problem, but just added a decent amount to the time it took to start the race.

[b][u] Audio Setup [/u][/b]
     I just wanted to say that PowerUp Audio did a really great job with the audio setup. We were all asked several times if we needed any of our levels to be adjusted, and they instantly fixed any problems we might have had. No issues

Overall, I would say that all these comments are pretty small in the grand scheme of things, and that it seemed to me that this GDQ ran pretty smoothly for the most part. I had a great time attending and doing my run, and look forward to attending future events.

MunchaKoopas

2016-07-29 04:17:06 pm

As a returning tech volunteer I would like to say that it has gotten smoother with each marathon. This was my first time as Stage Tech and while I enjoyed my duties I honestly felt like I did not help all that much. I realize there is not much else the Stage techs could have been responsible for with PowerUp Audio there to get people mics and whatnot. On another note, huge props to whoever made working with the cameras and Magic Box so easy. I was initially worried that I would delay all the games during my shifts due to unfamiliarity with the Magic Box but luckily it was super simple. I will definitely volunteer again, if staff will have me.

Only suggestion I have would be to include possible Bonus games on the printed schedule in the Tech binder. I made a small goof during the setup for The Witness due to it not being on the printed schedule. I realize that I should have double checked with Staff what the next game was or checked the website's schedule, but it would still have been helpful. I will probably post again or edit this after collecting more thoughts.

As a returning tech volunteer I would like to say that it has gotten smoother with each marathon. This was my first time as Stage Tech and while I enjoyed my duties I honestly felt like I did not help all that much. I realize there is not much else the Stage techs could have been responsible for with PowerUp Audio there to get people mics and whatnot. On another note, huge props to whoever made working with the cameras and Magic Box so easy. I was initially worried that I would delay all the games during my shifts due to unfamiliarity with the Magic Box but luckily it was super simple. I will definitely volunteer again, if staff will have me.

Only suggestion I have would be to include possible Bonus games on the printed schedule in the Tech binder. I made a small goof during the setup for The Witness due to it not being on the printed schedule. I realize that I should have double checked with Staff what the next game was or checked the website's schedule, but it would still have been helpful. I will probably post again or edit this after collecting more thoughts.

authorblues

2016-07-29 04:52:18 pm

Serious question, with the new LCD setup requiring RGB modded consoles, is that removing the possibility of accepting runs on obscure composite-only consoles in the future?

Cool Matty

2016-07-29 04:53:50 pm

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Quote from authorblues:

Serious question, with the new LCD setup requiring RGB modded consoles, is that removing the possibility of accepting runs on obscure composite-only consoles in the future?

Very, very few consoles are truly composite only, even with modding. What console are you thinking of?

TestRunner

2016-07-29 04:54:54 pm

Quote from trumez:

The only comment I have about the video setup for our race, which you can maybe just chalk up to my ignorance of how your setup works, is that there appeared to be several times during setup where everything would look fine, but then someone would change something and then have to fix everything on our TVs. There were a couple times where Aaron, Bramz, and I would all be able to see our TVs and warmup, but then a button would be pressed and suddenly all three of our TVs would have Bramz's video, or everyone but Aaron would have no video, which would then have to be corrected. This once again was not a big problem, but just added a decent amount to the time it took to start the race.

We were mostly likely testing the capture card feed. The video matrix controls both the TV and the Capture video. We were most likely either trying to diagnose some problem getting the video or we were verifying that the correct captures were getting the right video. It's part of our sanity checks before more complicated runs (especially big races).

Quote from MunchaKoopas:

Only suggestion I have would be to include possible Bonus games on the printed schedule in the Tech binder. I made a small goof during the setup for The Witness due to it not being on the printed schedule. I realize that I should have double checked with Staff what the next game was or checked the website's schedule, but it would still have been helpful. I will probably post again or edit this after collecting more thoughts.

That is my fault. I didn't make sure to update the setup blocks when I printed the schedule. I'll try to make sure it's accurate if I print it out again. Be aware that the printed schedule is often inaccurate because runs sometimes get move/added/removed.

Quote from authorblues:

Serious question, with the new LCD setup requiring RGB modded consoles, is that removing the possibility of accepting runs on obscure composite-only consoles in the future?

No, our potential setups would allow for composite/s-vid if we need them using transcoders, but straight RGB would look much better, obviously.

[quote="trumez"]The only comment I have about the video setup for our race, which you can maybe just chalk up to my ignorance of how your setup works, is that there appeared to be several times during setup where everything would look fine, but then someone would change something and then have to fix everything on our TVs. There were a couple times where Aaron, Bramz, and I would all be able to see our TVs and warmup, but then a button would be pressed and suddenly all three of our TVs would have Bramz's video, or everyone but Aaron would have no video, which would then have to be corrected. This once again was not a big problem, but just added a decent amount to the time it took to start the race.[/quote]
We were mostly likely testing the capture card feed. The video matrix controls both the TV and the Capture video. We were most likely either trying to diagnose some problem getting the video or we were verifying that the correct captures were getting the right video. It's part of our sanity checks before more complicated runs (especially big races).

[quote="MunchaKoopas"]Only suggestion I have would be to include possible Bonus games on the printed schedule in the Tech binder. I made a small goof during the setup for The Witness due to it not being on the printed schedule. I realize that I should have double checked with Staff what the next game was or checked the website's schedule, but it would still have been helpful. I will probably post again or edit this after collecting more thoughts. [/quote]
That is my fault. I didn't make sure to update the setup blocks when I printed the schedule. I'll try to make sure it's accurate if I print it out again. Be aware that the printed schedule is often inaccurate because runs sometimes get move/added/removed.

[quote="authorblues"]Serious question, with the new LCD setup requiring RGB modded consoles, is that removing the possibility of accepting runs on obscure composite-only consoles in the future?[/quote]
No, our potential setups would allow for composite/s-vid if we need them using transcoders, but straight RGB would look much better, obviously.

Deepfreeze

2016-07-29 05:03:50 pm

First time Tech Volunteer. Overall I felt the process was fairly intuitive, and fairly easy, though there was a few moments things became pretty hectic, but such is the nature of the position. The video was super helpful.

My main suggestion, would to make it easier to know when interviews, and commercials are to be played for Tech Volunteers. It was a bit confusing, knowing when to play and what ads to play. and we always had to check with staff. If these could somehow be put on the internal schedule thingy we used, for next time, it'd be really nice.

authorblues

2016-07-29 05:03:54 pm

Quote from Cool Matty:

Quote from authorblues:

Serious question, with the new LCD setup requiring RGB modded consoles, is that removing the possibility of accepting runs on obscure composite-only consoles in the future?

Very, very few consoles are truly composite only, even with modding. What console are you thinking of?

I know you can RGB mod any console. Are you guys planning to invest in an RGB-modded version of any console that gets accepted?

I plan to keep submitting CD-i despite my better judgement, I just would rather not get the reject message "we didn't want to pay to RGB mod a CD-i". That's why I'm asking.

zeronoin

2016-07-29 05:07:49 pm

Kudos to the tech crew, the often-overlooked essential part of these events.

Very interesting to see you are considering switching to an OSSC setup in the stream room.
I personally have an OSSC arriving within a few days, and am looking to try to stream some setups with it.
I know Tetris used the OSSC; what other runs used it?
Not using CRT's for the actual runs might be a touchy subject, so you may need to get that poll/conversation more publicity.
Not sure if GDQ is looking to get a lot of those.
Perhaps you could setup a few OSSC's in the practice room for people to familiarize themselves before their actual runs.
I know that OSSC's and only LCD's would certainly simplify things in the stream room.

I noticed some not-so-great capture during some NES games.
I think this video shows it (start at 9m45s):

Was kind of wondering what happened here.

Grygor

2016-07-29 08:26:10 pm

Quote from zeronoin:

I noticed some not-so-great capture during some NES games.
I think this video shows it (start at 9m45s):

Was kind of wondering what happened here.

Those diagonal stripes are an artifact caused by s-video luma crosstalk on the s-video chroma line, most often by poorly-made S-video cables or console A/V mods.

Lanayru

2016-07-29 09:46:06 pm

Techno is life

Alrighty time for my feedback. Don't worry it won't be a long one.

Ok so first of all *clap* great job this year team as someone in broadcasting for tv/radio/film I was happy with how things were this year however I feel like there are some tweaks that can still be done and some slight notice
So this year I did volunteer for tech to experience the greatness first hand and here are just some thoughts I have.

Camera

Ok so I'm more of a audio , switcher & on camera guy but I did learn some basics of camera and I'm not sure if I was a fan of how the cameras were setup. I feel like for interviews maybe get 2 camera setup for cross shooting and for the main cameras either get a long arm for the tripod or get apple boxes cause having the cameras be like 7 feet up up and being 5 ft 4 is not fun :P.

Audio
Nothing to say stream wise honestly. I liked that there was a talk back system for the audio director to talk to the runners however I think it be great if tech had an overall intercom system to work to communicate better which will be explained below
Shout outs to Kevin from powerup love you. <3

Steam Layout/Technical Director stuff

Alright so hooray OBS studio was great. As someone who has done Technical Director for TV having a program & a preview is the greatest thing ever which OBS studio has. Layout was great, really liked that there was the stream controll with the checklist with what layouts to use etc (shoutouts to whoever did that forgot your name sorry :3 ).
Now on to the intercom system.. It might sound silly but hear me out. With ads being run in for the stream now things are gonna get a lil bit stressful in terms of timing. Now thankfully you guys have the luxary of not being in a tight schedule (i.e only an hour slot on TV) but timing is still key. There was moments I saw where the ad would be run and announcer wasn't ready or the interview scene was switched and audio wasn't ready etc. From what I gathered the "producer"(allthough director is the more proper term but w.e) is running around talking to the team and saying ok we gonna run a ad wait for my signal yadaya. With an intercom the person on announcer, audio & TD knows what is going on and things can run smoother. Another thing to is counting down how long the ads are so the crew know how much time they have to breathe and prepare for the possible next ad or whatever.

So yeah I feel like communication is key and with some sort of intercom issue everyone can be on board and knows what is going on rather than this running back and forth stuff.

On topic of communication there would be moments where the matrix didn't have one capture setup for a race or something and everyone is trying to find out what is going on and it turns out matrix didn't send that. I mean I guess in future having a checklist for possible fails to go through? Labeling the matrix? I dunno but would seem a bit silly at times when a setup is long when the solution was simple but it was overlooked and forgotten

Overall I think production was pretty good this marathon, the improvements since 2014 and even 2015 is really nice

Think that is everything and shoutouts to Vulajin was pleasure working with you man

Alrighty time for my feedback. Don't worry it won't be a long one.

Ok so first of all *clap* great job this year team as someone in broadcasting for tv/radio/film I was happy with how things were this year however I feel like there are some tweaks that can still be done and some slight notice
So this year I did volunteer for tech to experience the greatness first hand and here are just some thoughts I have.

[b]Camera[/b]

Ok so I'm more of a audio , switcher & on camera guy but I did learn some basics of camera and I'm not sure if I was a fan of how the cameras were setup. I feel like for interviews maybe get 2 camera setup for cross shooting and for the main cameras either get a long arm for the tripod or get apple boxes cause having the cameras be like 7 feet up up and being 5 ft 4 is not fun :P.

[b]Audio[/b]
Nothing to say stream wise honestly. I liked that there was a talk back system for the audio director to talk to the runners however I think it be great if tech had an overall intercom system to work to communicate better which will be explained below
Shout outs to Kevin from powerup love you. <3
[b]
Steam Layout/Technical Director stuff[/b]

Alright so hooray OBS studio was great. As someone who has done Technical Director for TV having a program & a preview is the greatest thing ever which OBS studio has. Layout was great, really liked that there was the stream controll with the checklist with what layouts to use etc (shoutouts to whoever did that forgot your name sorry :3 ).
Now on to the intercom system.. It might sound silly but hear me out. With ads being run in for the stream now things are gonna get a lil bit stressful in terms of timing. Now thankfully you guys have the luxary of not being in a tight schedule (i.e only an hour slot on TV) but timing is still key. There was moments I saw where the ad would be run and announcer wasn't ready or the interview scene was switched and audio wasn't ready etc. From what I gathered the "producer"(allthough director is the more proper term but w.e) is running around talking to the team and saying ok we gonna run a ad wait for my signal yadaya. With an intercom the person on announcer, audio & TD knows what is going on and things can run smoother. Another thing to is counting down how long the ads are so the crew know how much time they have to breathe and prepare for the possible next ad or whatever.

So yeah I feel like communication is key and with some sort of intercom issue everyone can be on board and knows what is going on rather than this running back and forth stuff.

On topic of communication there would be moments where the matrix didn't have one capture setup for a race or something and everyone is trying to find out what is going on and it turns out matrix didn't send that. I mean I guess in future having a checklist for possible fails to go through? Labeling the matrix? I dunno but would seem a bit silly at times when a setup is long when the solution was simple but it was overlooked and forgotten

Overall I think production was pretty good this marathon, the improvements since 2014 and even 2015 is really nice

Think that is everything and shoutouts to Vulajin was pleasure working with you man

DarkAries

2016-07-31 08:05:19 am

I'm not going to post to much because essays at this point are just pointless. Good on you guys for stepping up to RGB. Please don't use LCDS or rely on the OSSC for capture. While the OSSC will work for a majority of the games during the event, you have to also account for edge cases like games that are just outside of the of the normal 60hz and games that change resolutions. For example this is how the resolution changes would look on stream

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxvnD1obPeahSlpvU3BVNHNOWHc/view

(video made by akumajo on shmups forum)

And that's with the capture, it could be different on the tv screen itself. If you already investing in an RGB matrix you're better off just getting RGB to Component boxes, either the cheaper ones from china on ebay (they need colour calibration) or the nicer boxes from Keene's website that are plug and play, much higher quality and do more then just RGB to Component. This would allow you to keeo the CRT for the runner and deal with the capture separately.

Other then that it seemed like most things went smoothly. Obviously rough patches here and there, noticed there was some matrix usage confusion for Tetris Attack which led to it's delay, maybe labelling the actual matrix buttons itself if they weren't would help alot so long nobody is plugging things in and out of it. I dunno how big the matrix you guys have is and if that's feasable so.

Based on the megaman vod posted above, you guys really should look into getting higher quality svideo cables, but then again this isn't going to be an issue when moving to RGB so.

I could comment on the Tetris block setup but there really isn't to much to say. Basically everything had to be redone which obviously takes it's own amount of setup time and troubleshooting to get things working. What I do want to touch on is the TVs. I realize they were all grabbed from some hotel auction because there were so many of the same model and literally all of them were stuck in hotel mode. It seemed like either they were frame locked to 60hz or internally converted everything to 480i. Or both in all honesty. This led to almost all retro games bobbing up and down like a bad deinterlace capture. I don't understand why you guys used these tvs when you had Sony Trinitrons and some nice Toshiba tvs in the casual room. Your casual room had better tvs then the stream room. That's backwards. Props to all the runners who had to deal with bobbing video for no reason other then you guys didn't swap out the tv for some reason. So yeah, luckily those TVs atleast displayed something. Tieing back to the beginning with using LCDs, you will not be as lucky as those are much more stubborn when dealing with rates outside of 60hz and you'll just get no image and again, crts can handle resolution changes on the fly, the OSSC with lcd cannot. If you want to use scalers, maybe look into getting some nice DVDO vp50 pros or something as afaik they handle it on the fly. My DVDO iscan HD does iirc so I see no reason why the newer better overal model shouldn't.

And I still ended up with an essay...crap

I'm not going to post to much because essays at this point are just pointless. Good on you guys for stepping up to RGB. Please don't use LCDS or rely on the OSSC for capture. While the OSSC will work for a majority of the games during the event, you have to also account for edge cases like games that are just outside of the of the normal 60hz and games that change resolutions. For example this is how the resolution changes would look on stream

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxvnD1obPeahSlpvU3BVNHNOWHc/view

(video made by akumajo on shmups forum)

And that's with the capture, it could be different on the tv screen itself.  If you already investing in an RGB matrix you're better off just getting RGB to Component boxes, either the cheaper ones from china on ebay (they need colour calibration) or the nicer boxes from Keene's website that are plug and play, much higher quality and do more then just RGB to Component. This would allow you to keeo the CRT for the runner and deal with the capture separately.

Other then that it seemed like most things went smoothly. Obviously rough patches here and there, noticed there was some matrix usage confusion for Tetris Attack which led to it's delay, maybe labelling the actual matrix buttons itself if they weren't would help alot so long nobody is plugging things in and out of it. I dunno how big the matrix you guys have is and if that's feasable so.

Based on the megaman vod posted above, you guys really should look into getting higher quality svideo cables, but then again this isn't going to be an issue when moving to RGB so.

I could comment on the Tetris block setup but there really isn't to much to say. Basically everything had to be redone which obviously takes it's own amount of setup time and troubleshooting to get things working. What I do want to touch on is the TVs. I realize they were all grabbed from some hotel auction because there were so many of the same model and literally all of them were stuck in hotel mode.  It seemed like either they were frame locked to 60hz or internally converted everything to 480i. Or both in all honesty. This led to almost all retro games bobbing up and down like a bad deinterlace capture.  I don't understand why you guys used these tvs when you had Sony Trinitrons and some nice Toshiba tvs in the casual room. Your casual room had better tvs then the stream room. That's backwards.  Props to all the runners who had to deal with bobbing video for no reason other then you guys didn't swap out the tv for some reason.  So yeah, luckily those TVs atleast displayed something. Tieing back to the beginning with using LCDs, you will not be as lucky as those are much more stubborn when dealing with rates outside of 60hz and you'll just get no image and again, crts can handle resolution changes on the fly, the OSSC with lcd cannot. If you want to use scalers, maybe look into getting some nice DVDO vp50 pros or something as afaik they handle it on the fly. My DVDO iscan HD does iirc so I see no reason why the newer better overal model shouldn't.

And I still ended up with an essay...crap

Cool Matty

2016-07-31 02:40:54 pm

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Quote from DarkAries:

I'm not going to post to much because essays at this point are just pointless. Good on you guys for stepping up to RGB. Please don't use LCDS or rely on the OSSC for capture. While the OSSC will work for a majority of the games during the event, you have to also account for edge cases like games that are just outside of the of the normal 60hz and games that change resolutions. For example this is how the resolution changes would look on stream

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxvnD1obPeahSlpvU3BVNHNOWHc/view

(video made by akumajo on shmups forum)

And that's with the capture, it could be different on the tv screen itself. If you already investing in an RGB matrix you're better off just getting RGB to Component boxes, either the cheaper ones from china on ebay (they need colour calibration) or the nicer boxes from Keene's website that are plug and play, much higher quality and do more then just RGB to Component. This would allow you to keeo the CRT for the runner and deal with the capture separately.

We're aware of the limitations of the OSSC (We had one since prior to SGDQ). However, we would not go RGB at all if we had to maintain our analog capture setup. The entire reason we are moving to RGB is to move up to an HDMI-only capture setup. Analog capture is just dying, fast. Micomsoft (SC-512) and similar were the last bastion of good capture cards out there, and they are no longer receiving driver updates. Without stable hardware to use, we can't keep going with our existing setup. We already had to deal with multiple BSODs at SGDQ because of those drivers, and we do not want to have that happen again.

Quote:

Based on the megaman vod posted above, you guys really should look into getting higher quality svideo cables, but then again this isn't going to be an issue when moving to RGB so.

We have a large number of high quality cables, I can only assume, if cables were the cause, that somehow an old cable was picked up before the run. However, I'm not entirely certain cabling was even the cause, it'll take more investigation.

Quote:

I could comment on the Tetris block setup but there really isn't to much to say. Basically everything had to be redone which obviously takes it's own amount of setup time and troubleshooting to get things working. What I do want to touch on is the TVs. I realize they were all grabbed from some hotel auction because there were so many of the same model and literally all of them were stuck in hotel mode. It seemed like either they were frame locked to 60hz or internally converted everything to 480i. Or both in all honesty. This led to almost all retro games bobbing up and down like a bad deinterlace capture. I don't understand why you guys used these tvs when you had Sony Trinitrons and some nice Toshiba tvs in the casual room. Your casual room had better tvs then the stream room. That's backwards. Props to all the runners who had to deal with bobbing video for no reason other then you guys didn't swap out the tv for some reason. So yeah, luckily those TVs atleast displayed something. Tieing back to the beginning with using LCDs, you will not be as lucky as those are much more stubborn when dealing with rates outside of 60hz and you'll just get no image and again, crts can handle resolution changes on the fly, the OSSC with lcd cannot. If you want to use scalers, maybe look into getting some nice DVDO vp50 pros or something as afaik they handle it on the fly. My DVDO iscan HD does iirc so I see no reason why the newer better overal model shouldn't.

And I still ended up with an essay...crap

We use the same TVs because we've heard feedback from other runners who appreciate being able to play on the same TVs they're practicing on.

[quote="DarkAries"]I'm not going to post to much because essays at this point are just pointless. Good on you guys for stepping up to RGB. Please don't use LCDS or rely on the OSSC for capture. While the OSSC will work for a majority of the games during the event, you have to also account for edge cases like games that are just outside of the of the normal 60hz and games that change resolutions. For example this is how the resolution changes would look on stream

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxvnD1obPeahSlpvU3BVNHNOWHc/view

(video made by akumajo on shmups forum)

And that's with the capture, it could be different on the tv screen itself.  If you already investing in an RGB matrix you're better off just getting RGB to Component boxes, either the cheaper ones from china on ebay (they need colour calibration) or the nicer boxes from Keene's website that are plug and play, much higher quality and do more then just RGB to Component. This would allow you to keeo the CRT for the runner and deal with the capture separately.  
[/quote]

We're aware of the limitations of the OSSC (We had one since prior to SGDQ). However, we would not go RGB at all if we had to maintain our analog capture setup. The entire reason we are moving to RGB is to move up to an HDMI-only capture setup. Analog capture is just dying, fast. Micomsoft (SC-512) and similar were the last bastion of good capture cards out there, and they are no longer receiving driver updates. Without stable hardware to use, we can't keep going with our existing setup. We already had to deal with multiple BSODs at SGDQ because of those drivers, and we do not want to have that happen again.

[quote]
Based on the megaman vod posted above, you guys really should look into getting higher quality svideo cables, but then again this isn't going to be an issue when moving to RGB so. [/quote]

We have a large number of high quality cables, I can only assume, if cables were the cause, that somehow an old cable was picked up before the run. However, I'm not entirely certain cabling was even the cause, it'll take more investigation.

[quote]
I could comment on the Tetris block setup but there really isn't to much to say. Basically everything had to be redone which obviously takes it's own amount of setup time and troubleshooting to get things working. What I do want to touch on is the TVs. I realize they were all grabbed from some hotel auction because there were so many of the same model and literally all of them were stuck in hotel mode.  It seemed like either they were frame locked to 60hz or internally converted everything to 480i. Or both in all honesty. This led to almost all retro games bobbing up and down like a bad deinterlace capture.  I don't understand why you guys used these tvs when you had Sony Trinitrons and some nice Toshiba tvs in the casual room. Your casual room had better tvs then the stream room. That's backwards.  Props to all the runners who had to deal with bobbing video for no reason other then you guys didn't swap out the tv for some reason.  So yeah, luckily those TVs atleast displayed something. Tieing back to the beginning with using LCDs, you will not be as lucky as those are much more stubborn when dealing with rates outside of 60hz and you'll just get no image and again, crts can handle resolution changes on the fly, the OSSC with lcd cannot. If you want to use scalers, maybe look into getting some nice DVDO vp50 pros or something as afaik they handle it on the fly. My DVDO iscan HD does iirc so I see no reason why the newer better overal model shouldn't.

And I still ended up with an essay...crap
[/quote]

We use the same TVs because we've heard feedback from other runners who appreciate being able to play on the same TVs they're practicing on.

Prolix

2016-07-31 05:52:28 pm

P.S. Earthbound

My feedback will be pretty basic compared to major A/V changes you're considering, etc., but I think it is most appropriate in this thread.

Firstly, I'll reiterate something I've mentioned in the last two feedback threads. For the tracker, on the Read Donations page for hosts, it would be excellent to have the ability to reorder rows. Being able to visually rearrange the order of donations would be a nice enhancement. I would use such a feature to place donations in the order that I want to read them in. For instance, if there are several donations that reference a bid war, I may want to read them together to build up awareness of it. Or perhaps it's an EU-friendly time, and there are numerous donations saying, 'Greetings from X' country -- if I want to read those together, sorting them to be in sequence on that page would facilitate that.

I realize the above probably isn't trivial to implement, especially if the feature were to preserve ordering through refreshes of the page, etc. So if this can't happen, I have a simpler alternative: could you at least add a column to the display that exposes whatever existing natural index number there is for the row in the database? That way, I could at least make notes for myself more rapidly (e.g. 'I want to read donation #320, then 318, then 339', or something like that). That would be good enough to serve my purposes. The only downside I've thought of to it is: you may have to explain to hosts what that strange new number on the Read Donations page is. In case they're curious or its presence throws them off.

Next, I'm not sure what coaching the audio techs already provide to those whom they mic up, but I'd have them add a request not to handle or remove their headsets until muted. When many runs end, those with microphones immediately start moving them, which can result in unpleasant noise on the stream. I figure a lot of that could be avoided with just a little bit of advice. Time permitting and all, of course.

Finally, regarding the video game music tracks that play in the background between runs: if possible, consider displaying the track title and source game on the stream more than just once. Viewers seemed to be very curious about the source of the BGM most of the time, apparently missing the overlay display of the track info when the music started. It could help to pop up the info again at regular intervals. That said, I think the music is only present on the live stream, not in YouTube VODs (and I haven't checked the Archive.org copies), so I suppose one possible downside to this is that the information is only relevant during the original broadcast, and more instances of it might detract from the final run videos.

My feedback will be pretty basic compared to major A/V changes you're considering, etc., but I think it is most appropriate in this thread.

Firstly, I'll reiterate something I've mentioned in the last two feedback threads.  For the tracker, on the Read Donations page for hosts, it would be excellent to have the ability to reorder rows.  Being able to visually rearrange the order of donations would be a nice enhancement.  I would use such a feature to place donations in the order that I want to read them in.  For instance, if there are several donations that reference a bid war, I may want to read them together to build up awareness of it.  Or perhaps it's an EU-friendly time, and there are numerous donations saying, 'Greetings from X' country -- if I want to read those together, sorting them to be in sequence on that page would facilitate that.

I realize the above probably isn't trivial to implement, especially if the feature were to preserve ordering through refreshes of the page, etc.  So if this can't happen, I have a simpler alternative: could you at least add a column to the display that exposes whatever existing natural index number there is for the row in the database?  That way, I could at least make notes for myself more rapidly (e.g. 'I want to read donation #320, then 318, then 339', or something like that).  That would be good enough to serve my purposes.  The only downside I've thought of to it is: you may have to explain to hosts what that strange new number on the Read Donations page is.  In case they're curious or its presence throws them off.

Next, I'm not sure what coaching the audio techs already provide to those whom they mic up, but I'd have them add a request not to handle or remove their headsets until muted.  When many runs end, those with microphones immediately start moving them, which can result in unpleasant noise on the stream.  I figure a lot of that could be avoided with just a little bit of advice.  Time permitting and all, of course.

Finally, regarding the video game music tracks that play in the background between runs: if possible, consider displaying the track title and source game on the stream more than just once.  Viewers seemed to be very curious about the source of the BGM most of the time, apparently missing the overlay display of the track info when the music started.  It could help to pop up the info again at regular intervals.  That said, I think the music is only present on the live stream, not in YouTube VODs (and I haven't checked the Archive.org copies), so I suppose one possible downside to this is that the information is only relevant during the original broadcast, and more instances of it might detract from the final run videos.

chrishanel

2016-07-31 06:07:13 pm

I try and make things pretty

Quote from Prolix:

Finally, regarding the video game music tracks that play in the background between runs: if possible, consider displaying the track title and source game on the stream more than just once.

I'm looking at doing a pretty thorough redesign of the break screen overall and this could include having song information up more or less at all times. This has been brought up by a few people and is worth looking at being a feature.

DarkAries

2016-08-01 06:08:28 pm

You do realize that moving your capture setup to HDMI and ditching CRTs are not mutually exclusive right? A matrix can split the video that one feed goes to ossc, another goes to colour transcoder and you have the best of both worlds. But okay, it's your show.

Omnigamer

2016-08-01 06:27:46 pm

All the things

We are looking at a number of options that cover a wide range of scenarios. We are looking for feedback on an all-LCD setup specifically because it is one of the more drastic changes for runners, but has some good benefits as well. We are plenty aware of setup options that still utilize CRTs.

musical_daredevil

2016-08-01 08:58:45 pm

Quote from Prolix:

I realize the above probably isn't trivial to implement, especially if the feature were to preserve ordering through refreshes of the page, etc. So if this can't happen, I have a simpler alternative: could you at least add a column to the display that exposes whatever existing natural index number there is for the row in the database? That way, I could at least make notes for myself more rapidly (e.g. 'I want to read donation #320, then 318, then 339', or something like that). That would be good enough to serve my purposes. The only downside I've thought of to it is: you may have to explain to hosts what that strange new number on the Read Donations page is. In case they're curious or its presence throws them off.

I've also been thinking about things to help the host out in finding specific donations. An alternative idea I had would be to place a few buttons to the side which would change the background colors of the donation row to something like green/red/white so it would be easier to see specific rows while scrolling. I know something like this would have been helpful while looking for certain donations which were relevant to what was going on when my queue had 50 or so.

In addition, I was also wondering about the possibility of displaying the number of donations in the host's queue at the head donation confirmation screen. That way the head donation can, for instance, help the host from having to look through hundreds of donations during busy times.

[quote="Prolix"]
I realize the above probably isn't trivial to implement, especially if the feature were to preserve ordering through refreshes of the page, etc.  So if this can't happen, I have a simpler alternative: could you at least add a column to the display that exposes whatever existing natural index number there is for the row in the database?  That way, I could at least make notes for myself more rapidly (e.g. 'I want to read donation #320, then 318, then 339', or something like that).  That would be good enough to serve my purposes.  The only downside I've thought of to it is: you may have to explain to hosts what that strange new number on the Read Donations page is.  In case they're curious or its presence throws them off.[/quote]

I've also been thinking about things to help the host out in finding specific donations. An alternative idea I had would be to place a few buttons to the side which would change the background colors of the donation row to something like green/red/white so it would be easier to see specific rows while scrolling. I know something like this would have been helpful while looking for certain donations which were relevant to what was going on when my queue had 50 or so.

In addition, I was also wondering about the possibility of displaying the number of donations in the host's queue at the head donation confirmation screen. That way the head donation can, for instance, help the host from having to look through hundreds of donations during busy times.

Ghoul02

2016-08-02 07:16:36 pm

www.twitch.tv/ghoul02

So a few of the bigger things for me:

For the donations, having an ability to filter by time and/or game and/or search would be huge. I wanted to go back and look at all the donations during my Catherine run and it was unnecessarily difficult to do so.

I'd like to see commentators put on the stream layout somewhere. Ideally, this could be sorted well ahead of time, or require runners to be there 30 minutes early to get the proper names/twitter handles whatever into the layout without disrupting and making things between games a nightmare.

otdq

2016-08-16 01:38:14 am

www.powerupaudio.com

Somewhat delayed on the response, but we were kind of hoping to let all the feedback roll in before responding. Smiley

First, from myself and the rest of the crew at Power Up Audio, thanks again for having us out for SGDQ. We had a *MUCH SMOOTHER* experience this time around compared to last year - largely just because we'd done it before and knew what to expect. We had something like ~80-100 angry tweets in the first couple days last year, and this year we had literally zero. This year we were happy to tweet out our honest mistakes, compared to last year...when we were hoping no one noticed them. Cheesy

One huge piece of feedback we received last year was, "I wish I knew I didn't have to hear myself in my own ears during the run." - as such, we made an effort to ask every runner if they wanted to hear their own voice. A solid 2/3rds of runners didn't want to, so we're glad we asked. Smiley

Regarding names of musical selections showing up, since that seems a hot topic (both during and post-marathon), that was somewhat our fault... There existed a system to retrieve the name of the current track *IF* it was an mp3 played from the local machine there...but...if we wanted to play something a little more obscure (eg. a track on youtube, or in the case of Celeste, a gameplay tune playing literally direct from the game in a browser window), of course the track name wouldn't show up.

If we return for another SGDQ, we have loose and ambitious plans of planning ahead for most/all run transitions, so that we can have mp3's prepared for every moment; every transition. This way, the name of every single track should be able to show up on the stream layout. I'm sure we'd still have the odd off-the-cuff track, but those cases would be much more far-and-few-between. Considering that even I can't find that sick DOOM remix we played in the lead-up to Dime's Doom run, I'm sure it would be a marked improvement.

Thanks again for all the positive feedback everyone. And please, if you have any suggestions at all for us if/when we return for another event, feel free to let us know. Just like the folks at Support Class, we're always looking for ways to improve. Smiley

Cheers,

- kr

Somewhat delayed on the response, but we were kind of hoping to let all the feedback roll in before responding. :)

First, from myself and the rest of the crew at Power Up Audio, thanks again for having us out for SGDQ. We had a *MUCH SMOOTHER* experience this time around compared to last year - largely just because we'd done it before and knew what to expect. We had something like ~80-100 angry tweets in the first couple days last year, and this year we had literally zero. This year we were happy to tweet out our honest mistakes, compared to last year...when we were hoping no one noticed them. :D

One huge piece of feedback we received last year was, "I wish I knew I didn't have to hear myself in my own ears during the run." - as such, we made an effort to ask every runner if they wanted to hear their own voice. A solid 2/3rds of runners didn't want to, so we're glad we asked. :)

Regarding names of musical selections showing up, since that seems a hot topic (both during and post-marathon), that was somewhat our fault... There existed a system to retrieve the name of the current track *IF* it was an mp3 played from the local machine there...but...if we wanted to play something a little more obscure (eg. a track on youtube, or in the case of Celeste, a gameplay tune playing literally direct from the game in a browser window), of course the track name wouldn't show up.

If we return for another SGDQ, we have loose and ambitious plans of planning ahead for most/all run transitions, so that we can have mp3's prepared for every moment; every transition. This way, the name of every single track should be able to show up on the stream layout. I'm sure we'd still have the odd off-the-cuff track, but those cases would be much more far-and-few-between. Considering that even I can't find that sick DOOM remix we played in the lead-up to Dime's Doom run, I'm sure it would be a marked improvement.

Thanks again for all the positive feedback everyone. And please, if you have any suggestions at all for us if/when we return for another event, feel free to let us know. Just like the folks at Support Class, we're always looking for ways to improve. :)

Cheers,

- kr

Prolix

2016-08-17 07:51:38 pm

P.S. Earthbound

Off-topic for a moment (beg pardon):

Quote from otdq:

Considering that even I can't find that sick DOOM remix we played in the lead-up to Dime's Doom run, I'm sure it would be a marked improvement.

Ah, that's too bad. Haha, I still remember you guys in my headphones, 'Uh, chill it on donations there for a second -- we're gonna crank this'. Good times thumbsup