SDA-approved DOSbox?

2011-03-03 09:28:40 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

It's no secret that recording DOS games right now is incredibly difficult, and it will only become more difficult as time goes on. It's easy to get an original system or official emulation for console recording, but there's no such equivalent for old PC games, only DOSbox. DOSbox is so prevalent for emulating old PC games that a lot of compilation packs for older games such as King's Quest use DOSbox. I'm thinking the best way around the DOS recording problem is have some sort of modified DOSbox that is SDA-approved.

To my knowledge the two biggest problems with DOSbox are:

1. Savestates.

2. Speed manipulation.

I haven't used DOSbox in a while, so I don't know what other problems there would be, or if these problems are even correct. I'm just putting this idea out there because there's a lot of early/mid-90's DOS games that would be good for running, but maybe not for listening if they use the PC speaker. Tongue

Thread title:

UraniumAnchor

2011-03-04 12:38:27 am

Not a walrus

The problem is that since dosbox is open source it'd be incredibly easy to modify whatever 'official' version we put out (and we'd have to provide the source since I believe dosbox is GPL).

The "simplest" method I can think of is requiring a separate camera to show that the run was recorded in real time, even though this would add an extra layer of difficulty to recording.

Also we'd probably want to settle on stock configurations for certain games, to prevent things like Jill of the Jungle running too fast because you cranked up the CPU cycles (there's no throttling, it runs as fast as it likes).

I agree that we need a solution but I'm not sure what extra steps we should require.

Carcinogen

2011-03-04 12:50:38 am

I would say something along the lines of look for an old Packard Bell at a garage sale and find a VGA-Composite adapter for console style recording, but dear god, old computers are expensive. :/

Almost makes me want to track down the fuckhead who threw out my old computer when i got a new one all those years ago.

If only clock speed wasn't such an issue.

To actually contribute though and satisfy my curiosity, didn't Microsoft release a first-party virtual PC emulator that lets you work with older versions of windows, set the clock speed, and everything?

Sir VG

Edit history:

Sir VG: 2011-03-04 02:19:16 am

2011-03-04 02:07:26 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote from Carcinogen:

To actually contribute though and satisfy my curiosity, didn't Microsoft release a first-party virtual PC emulator that lets you work with older versions of windows, set the clock speed, and everything?

The closest thing I can find right now is Microsoft Virtual PC 2007. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtual-pc/support/virtual-pc-2007.aspx

There's another Virtual PC (no number) that runs only in Windows 7, while 2007 runs in XP/Vista, from what I'm gathering. I can't seem to find anything about handling DOS though, but I skimmed it really quick.

Looks like it does allow for DOS games and such, judging by this article about it, as well as this one.

Lag.Com

2011-03-04 03:51:54 am

sda loyalist

Yes, Virtual PC lets you run DOS games, as well as a lot of other things. However, it does also technically allow savestates.

Sir VG

2011-03-04 04:11:07 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Maybe with the Virtual PC, you could include recording the startup process too? It wouldn't be to hard to tack on if you're already recording via Fraps or something of that nature.

Tigger77

2011-03-04 07:06:20 am

I survived MIKE-Fest 1

Mabey its possible to make a log file with timestamps on it like anri produce with some security crypt so only nate can read it don't now if this is even possible some programmers should now the answer.

moooh

2011-03-04 07:13:24 am

Exoray

Quote from Tigger77:

Mabey its possible to make a log file with timestamps on it like anri produce with some security crypt so only nate can read it don't now if this is even possible some programmers should now the answer.

Good thinking, although unfortunately this won't work. If the program has to create the log file, it has to know the key. Since DOSBox is open source, one could just change that timestamp behaviour and produce your own fake log file using that same key.

Warepire

2011-03-04 07:23:34 am

Heavy Metal Powered

The issue here is that DOSbox is under the GPLv2 license as UraniumAnchor mentioned which forces us to give out the source code... so even if we have our own (feature stripped down) version of DOSbox someone could re-add stuff if they knew what they where doing rendering the entire idea futile.

I think we would have to write our own emulator from scratch and only letting the developers and admins have access to the source code... Developing such an emulator to a state that it could be considered allowed by the site takes a lot of time and a lot of money putting together computers fit to run Microsoft DOS just so we can test everything making sure it all is as accurate as can ever be.

Tigger77

2011-03-04 07:47:11 am

I survived MIKE-Fest 1

OK next Idear write a stand alone program how recognize the the dos box and logs everything "keys, Program's running ...."
To submit a run it is necessary to have the program running (Starting it then dos box ) so because its SDA work you can hide the source code

moooh

Edit history:

moooh: 2011-03-04 08:54:57 am

2011-03-04 08:54:07 am

Exoray

You could easily pre-configure DOSbox to run with a lower speed and that stand alone program would not be able to detect that change since it's made before the stand alone program has been started. If you would want the stand alone program to check the DOSbox settings it would have to interface with DOSbox in some way. Again, since DOSbox is open source, anyone could make DOSbox feed fake data to the stand alone program, thus rendering it useless.

At the moment, the only way I see it possible is doing what Warepire said, by creating our own DOS emulator.

ZenicReverie

2011-03-04 11:34:00 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

It might be easier to find a way to build custom computers that could run DOS.

bmn

Edit history:

bmn: 2011-03-04 12:24:30 pm

2011-03-04 12:24:00 pm

I think on SDA there's always a certain element of trust involved, no matter which system is involved. I don't necessarily think that should change just because it's now a PC emulation.

As Warepire has mentioned, DOSbox is under GPLv2 and any pre-compiled modification would have to provide - or at least offer to provide - the source code. At the same time, we accept that someone - if determined and skilled enough - could mass video edit a console run. I think it'd be a similar person that would compile their own version of an SDA DOSbox and do the video editing involved in faking a run.

Given that emulation is now beng looked at, what about virtual machines such as VMware and VirtualBox, for games that don't have issues with CPU speed (e.g. Win95 etc)? They do have save state features themselves (although they are more clunky to work with), but at the same time with a clock on the guest screen we could require the runner starts and stops recording when the game is closed, compare times etc.

I think on SDA there's always a certain element of trust involved, no matter which system is involved. I don't necessarily think that should change just because it's now a PC emulation.

As Warepire has mentioned, DOSbox is under GPLv2 and any pre-compiled modification would have to provide - or at least offer to provide - the source code. At the same time, we accept that someone - if determined and skilled enough - could mass video edit a console run. I think it'd be a similar person that would compile their own version of an SDA DOSbox [i]and[/i] do the video editing involved in faking a run.

Given that emulation is now beng looked at, what about virtual machines such as VMware and VirtualBox, for games that don't have issues with CPU speed (e.g. Win95 etc)? They do have save state features themselves (although they are more clunky to work with), but at the same time with a clock on the guest screen we could require the runner starts and stops recording when the game is closed, compare times etc.

mikwuyma

2011-03-04 09:05:45 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Well, it doesn't necessarily have to be DOSbox. I just mentioned DOSbox because that's the most common way of playing older games, but we could use Virtual PC programs instead. I just think there should be a way to record old DOS games that doesn't require a million hurdles to get through.

dballin

2011-03-04 11:54:34 pm

Balls jerky

I still have a 286. Why don't you guys?

Sir VG

2011-03-04 11:57:15 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote from dballin:

I still have a 286. Why don't you guys?

Because I was too rich and skipped the 286 generation. I started with a 386/33. I had at one point recovered an 8086 though, though I've sent it off to be recycled.

Warepire

2011-03-05 05:18:14 am

Heavy Metal Powered

Quote from dballin:

I still have a 286. Why don't you guys?

I own a Pentium I laptop that clocks in at 85 MHz, it doesn't have video out though Sad

ExplodingCabbage

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-03-05 06:50:26 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-03-05 06:49:36 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-03-05 06:46:46 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-03-05 06:46:06 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-03-05 06:46:05 am

2011-03-05 06:45:37 am

I don't know much about DOS games, and everything I'm posting is from memory so I may be wrong about some points here, but I think there's another major obstacle to allowing many DOS games at SDA that nobody has mentioned yet which won't go away regardless of what emulator we decide to allow. That is that many DOS games don't have fixed game speeds, and instead the speed varies depending on how fast the computer running it is. Playing games in DOSBox, you can get many of them* to run at crazy speeds by boosting the number of CPU cycles per second. How can we decide what speed to make people run these games at if we're going to allow them?

* From memory, I believe this applies to C&C, Highway Hunter, Rollin, Lemmings, and partially to the King's Quest and Space Quest games. I can't remember any games I know it doesn't apply to, though there's plenty of games I played as a kid that I'm not sure about. But take all those claims with a pinch of salt because I haven't tested anything before posting this, I haven't played anything in DOSBOX for a couple of years, and I haven't played anything in actual DOS for over a decade. Apologies if I'm wrong about details or just totally wrong here.

I don't know much about DOS games, and everything I'm posting is from memory so I may be wrong about some points here, but I think there's another major obstacle to allowing many DOS games at SDA that nobody has mentioned yet which won't go away regardless of what emulator we decide to allow. That is that many DOS games don't have fixed game speeds, and instead the speed varies depending on how fast the computer running it is. Playing games in DOSBox, you can get many of them* to run at crazy speeds by boosting the number of CPU cycles per second. How can we decide what speed to make people run these games at if we're going to allow them?

* From memory, I believe this applies to C&C, Highway Hunter, Rollin, Lemmings, and partially to the King's Quest and Space Quest games. I can't remember any games I know it [i]doesn't[/i] apply to, though there's plenty of games I played as a kid that I'm not sure about. But take all those claims with a pinch of salt because I haven't tested anything before posting this, I haven't played anything in DOSBOX for a couple of years, and I haven't played anything in actual DOS for over a decade. Apologies if I'm wrong about details or just totally wrong here.

nate

2011-03-05 08:50:58 am

it could just be determined on a game-by-game basis (consensus on the forum) and then posted at the top of the game's page.

dballin

2011-03-05 03:29:26 pm

Balls jerky

C&C does run crazy fast. Trying to play it on anything faster than slowest is incredibly difficult on this computer. There is no time to think.

gia

2011-03-06 10:43:46 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Games on GOG are usually official releases that run on emulator, dosbox, so it fits within your rules using such releases I guess.

Since its easy to cheat do your emulator runs during MAGFest or whatever, have a judge present TG-like

Lag.Com

2011-03-07 02:48:14 am

sda loyalist

C&C actually had a Windows 95 port which still runs on newer OS but I'm not sure if it will run windowed. Just throwing that out there.

And yeah if you set cycles to 'auto' and DOSBox runs it too fast, then a specific value is needed. I guess we'll have to maintain a list like nate says.

Emptyeye

Edit history:

Emptyeye: 2011-03-07 05:58:06 am

2011-03-07 05:57:15 am

Talk to the Hand

Frankly, the fact that Sierra Collections (Amongst others, probably) can't be run on SDA simply BECAUSE they use DOSBox (The emulator rule would most accurately be "No emulators, except official ones, except when that emulator is DOSBox) behind the scenes, has always bugged me (And I've told Mike this as well). I understand the reasoning behind it--although I don't know how easy it is to get at DOSBox on said collections--but it's always irked me anyway.

EDIT: So, yes, I agree that we need SOME SDA-approved solution for this, whether it's a DOSBox fork or some custom solution that we make ourselves.

ExplodingCabbage

2011-03-07 06:13:38 am

Quote from Lag.Com:

And yeah if you set cycles to 'auto' and DOSBox runs it too fast, then a specific value is needed. I guess we'll have to maintain a list like nate says.

How are we going to decide the values?

moooh

2011-03-07 06:54:11 am

Exoray

And more importantly, how are we going to check the values?