Quake III Arena - August 2, 2016

Edit history:

SDAVerification: 2016-08-02 11:09:55 am

2016-07-19 12:26:23 pm

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet

Quake III Arena () (pc) [Any %] [Single Segment] [Nightmare]

Decision: Accept

Congratulations to 'diegowar'!

Thread title:

SDAVerification

2016-07-19 12:26:23 pm

Run Information

Quake III Arena () (pc) [Any %] [Single Segment] [Nightmare]

Verification Files

http://v.speeddemosarchive.com/quake3-v_HQ.mp4

Please refer to the Verification Guidelines before posting.

Please post your opinions about the run and be certain to conclude your post with a verdict (Accept/Reject). This is not a contest where the majority wins - I will judge each verification on its content. Please keep your verification brief unless you have a good reason otherwise.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2016-07-20 08:52:06 am

2016-07-19 02:07:00 pm

Well, it's the same run as I saw earlier. Now that I've seen it a couple of times, I can start to see more of the mistakes instead of just the rampage. The best part about the run is that QIII now finally has something on SDA, but it really will never be perfected. The run notes give adequate indication as to why.

easy accept

PS: I don't think you can have any extra (non-game) footage at the start of the run can you? Diego made a cool intro snippet for it...

Ewil

Edit history:

Ewil: 2016-07-21 06:17:33 am

2016-07-20 10:50:05 am

As much as I want to like this run, I just can't. It has very good rng, good aim and some nice tactics, unfortunately for the runner Quake 3 belongs to the "high-skill" club and as someone who have played this game for over 16 years, I can clearly see the runner lacks a bit of skill in movement. I'm pretty sure that it would save a bit of time in some cases (eg. going for armor). There's also the case of not using most of the console commands, even though he use map_restart 0 trick, but not bot_nochat 1. I'm accepting this run, but it can be done better.

Verdict: Accept

LotBlind

2016-07-20 11:46:37 am

^^ The thing is... the level of skill for this game in particular has long since bypassed what SDA usually expects of new entrees. Secondly... why don't you do it better then? It's not like you haven't had the time Wink

the 16 years you just mentioned in fact. Are you right about to do it now? It's a game nobody will ever submit for for the very reason that everyone's like you Ewil... well luckily we have someone who finally did.

Also, Diego already explained why he's left the bot chat in (it's in, it just "muted" so you can't see it isn't it?)

For the record, I also don't see the runner's movement as their greatest strength based on this run alone, but I'm also very hesitant to mark it as a major deficiency.

Judgy

Edit history:

Judgy: 2016-07-20 12:18:37 pm

2016-07-20 12:18:04 pm

Borderlands 2 Glitch Hunter/ router.

A/V: Good
Cheating: None
Gameplay: looks good to me up until 30:39-ish then the long distance 'Sniping' leaves me disappointed to the point that I'm wondering if it would have been quicker to just have stayed on the main part of the map and kill people normally. all-in-all to me it looks good, howeverI am hoping to see an improvement at some point.

Accept.

Ewil

Edit history:

Ewil: 2016-07-21 06:17:27 am

Ewil: 2016-07-21 06:17:21 am

2016-07-21 12:57:55 am

@LotBlind: I never even thought about it up until about a year ago when people started doing runs on speedrun.com on I can win difficulty. Speedrunning this game is pretty much just RNG, especially on nightmare, that's why nobody does it. I can win difficulty is at least much more forgiving, but it's still RNG grind fest.

I'm not saying the run is bad. I actually tried couple levels myself and it isn't easy to at least match Diego's times, it's just that better movement could save a second here and there.

bot_nochat 1 - There are many instances, when a bot types after it dies, which means its respawn will be delayed by a second or two. And you always want to have all bots alive and moving. His explanation about killing a standing bot doesn't make much sense to me since you can kill bots very quickly, moving or standing. DM3 is a good example, where bot_nochat is very useful since it's a medium sized map with only 2 bots, so you have to keep "looking" around.

I forgot to mention he sometimes types out of frustration, as he explained. That doesn't save time either.

I also thought about the map_restart 0 command and realized you could maybe manipulate your starting position, at least on some maps, but it requires testing.

@Judgy: On nightmare, almost every bot targets you and they have a very good aim, so surviving in open space at close distance is pretty much impossible. Sniping is the best option, because unless bots have a railgun, they will ignore you.

@LotBlind: I never even thought about it up until about a year ago when people started doing runs on speedrun.com on I can win difficulty. Speedrunning this game is pretty much just RNG, especially on nightmare, that's why nobody does it. I can win difficulty is at least much more forgiving, but it's still RNG grind fest.

I'm not saying the run is bad. I actually tried couple levels myself and it isn't easy to at least match Diego's times, it's just that better movement could save a second here and there.

bot_nochat 1 - There are many instances, when a bot types after it dies, which means its respawn will be delayed by a second or two. And you always want to have all bots alive and moving. His explanation about killing a standing bot doesn't make much sense to me since you can kill bots very quickly, moving or standing. DM3 is a good example, where bot_nochat is very useful since it's a medium sized map with only 2 bots, so you have to keep "looking" around.

I forgot to mention he sometimes types out of frustration, as he explained. That doesn't save time either.

I also thought about the map_restart 0 command and realized you could maybe manipulate your starting position, at least on some maps, but it requires testing.

@Judgy: On nightmare, almost every bot targets you and they have a very good aim, so surviving in open space at close distance is pretty much impossible. Sniping is the best option, because unless bots have a railgun, they will ignore you.

LotBlind

2016-07-21 11:33:25 am

Diego, feel free to defend your choices here as well.

Ewil: the typing never takes longer than the respawn would have taken anyway? I could hardly notice that anyway. As for nochat... maybe it is so, though if the bot has a weapon, and depending on your own situation, surely it's sometimes helpful if they're not defending themselves. It don't know if that counterweighs what you're saying.

I'd like to say the proof is in the pudding with that more so than anything.

Ewil

2016-07-21 12:03:44 pm

Yes, the typing usually doesn't take longer, but there's at least one case when it does. It's not a big deal, I just pointed it out.

Yes, in some cases chatting bots can save your life, but I believe its a waste of time most of the time, especially in duels. Let's say you kill a bot and it types - 1 second lost. You jump around the map to find it and it types again (usually some badass crap) to mock you - 1 second lost. If this happens in every map, it's one minute loss. You will of course lose some of that time by having a slightly higher chance to die.

honorableJay

2016-07-21 08:33:20 pm

The Dork Knight himself.

A/V: Fine
No cheating.

I'm happy that Q3 is finally getting a NM run, but this run is far from perfect. RNG factors aside, there are numerous areas where the runner could improve. From the sniping whiffs, to the questionable weapon choices (gauntlet chasing??), to the sub-optimal framerate (which was not entirely in the runner's control), there are plenty of areas that, when added, cost a decent amount of time.

However, all of those things don't detract enough from the run to warrant a reject.

Accept

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2016-07-22 11:33:29 am

2016-07-22 11:32:13 am

honorableJay: The gauntlet chase in that early map was not a mistake, he had no weapons but going for rockets, then turning back would probably have resulted in a similar time. I don't think there's any other time is there?

Ewil

2016-07-22 01:44:37 pm

Gauntlet has higher DPS than machinegun - 125 vs 70, so his choice of weapon was correct, but yeah, going for RL would probably result in the same time.

honorableJay

Edit history:

honorableJay: 2016-07-22 07:25:36 pm

2016-07-22 06:58:16 pm

The Dork Knight himself.

I'll check the video again, but I remember him doing the same thing later on in the run. The first instance was fine, the second time took a bit longer to get the kill.

*Edit*
DM16 - gauntlet kill didn't waste time since he had to round a corner to find someone anyway, forgetting his score did waste time (great lol moment)
DM17 - gauntlet chased Doom (final frag) up a bounce pad instead of using MG/RL

diegowar

2016-07-23 02:50:26 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote from Judgy:

I'm wondering if it would have been quicker to just have stayed on the main part of the map and kill people normally.

It would have been much more consistent (and probably a bit faster in this case, albeit my missed rails), but I thought that considering my form I could save a few seconds by going in. Didn't turn out so good, but in my defense I wasn't so lucky either (major surviving my rail shot, me landing on jumpad, bot suiciding himself, my rail on major when she's on the other side missing I'm not sure how, then bot spawns behind me and machinegun me immediately, then when I respawn the two bots next to me doublekill themselves, and for the last frag Doom plus-backs like a coward... it's like the worse things that could have happened, happened, and all in a row :p)

Quote from Ewil:

unfortunately for the runner Quake 3 belongs to the "high-skill" club and as someone who have played this game for over 16 years, I can clearly see the runner lacks a bit of skill in movement.

@LotBlind: I never even thought about it up until about a year ago when people started doing runs on speedrun.com on I can win difficulty. Speedrunning this game is pretty much just RNG, especially on nightmare, that's why nobody does it. I can win difficulty is at least much more forgiving, but it's still RNG grind fest.

I'm not saying the run is bad. I actually tried couple levels myself and it isn't easy to at least match Diego's times, it's just that better movement could save a second here and there.

bot_nochat 1 - There are many instances, when a bot types after it dies, which means its respawn will be delayed by a second or two. And you always want to have all bots alive and moving. His explanation about killing a standing bot doesn't make much sense to me since you can kill bots very quickly, moving or standing. DM3 is a good example, where bot_nochat is very useful since it's a medium sized map with only 2 bots, so you have to keep "looking" around.

I forgot to mention he sometimes types out of frustration, as he explained. That doesn't save time either.

I also thought about the map_restart 0 command and realized you could maybe manipulate your starting position, at least on some maps, but it requires testing.

I disagree about the run being all RNG.

From map to map of course, but every map having RNG, it's impossible to really get "overall good RNG", you might get good RNG on like 12 out of 26 maps, or 13 out of 26 maps, things like that, but unless you're doing millions of runs, to me RNG will never affect the run that much, certainly not as much as your performance will.

For the movement, there's a couple of bumps and missteps here and there, but if you're talking about the speed of the movement, I'm perfectly capable of strafejumping quickly, but in 99% of the run you never want to move too fast, it's a sure way to get yourself nailed by a bot. You always want to deal damage first and be the one that catch the enemy, it's much more important in my opinion. But if you've got specific example of places where I should move faster I'm all ears (I think that the rare places that it's actually safe to do so I do, but maybe I missed some). Also if you can show me that it's really possible to always go super fast in nightmare mode and consistently not lose time because of it, I'd be very interested in that (not at all that I'm planning to do another run, but I still like to learn more).

I know that you're very adamant about that bot_nochat 1, but personally I don't think that it makes that much of a difference either way. Yes you can kill a bot moving as quickly as a bot standing, but the damage that he will not deal to you while chatting might save you a lot of time later on. Then again, maybe you're right, maybe overall it's a little faster with bot_nochat 1, I haven't really tested it, but I don't think the difference would be that big even if that was the case. It'd certainly be interesting to test it out.

Typing out the frustration, first of all, doesn't lose me time, and most importantly, yes it does save time Smiley

! You can't visually or immediately see the effect, but if I let the anger build up in me I lose concentration and play worse :). This is not a usual thing for me to get frustrated, but remember that I did a lot of runs, lost a lot of time and was in actual physical pain because of it, so it builds up and after a while when something doesn't go in my way I get angry :p

For map_restart I actually do manipulate my first spawn a couple of times in the run Smiley

Anyway thanks for your input !

PS : Hey, you're not alone in that 16 years club :p

Quote from honorableJay:

questionable weapon choices (gauntlet chasing??)

Hehe, I'm guessing you're probably talking about the two times that I attack Doom with the gauntlet, but for both of these I don't think it was the worse choice.
The first time remember that I had just spawned, so I don't have any weapon. I'm going in a tight corridor so I of course pick the gauntlet, at the exit of the corridor I see Doom right there, I think the best choice was to go with the gauntlet.
The second time, it's for the last frag on DM17, I do initially use rockets, as he's plus-backing, but he's sneaky and as I close-in on him he also decides to rush me. I'm not sure that I have that much health left, so instinctively as he's like in my face, I pull out the gauntlet. Bad choice, he's on the jumppad now, well, I immediately take the jumppad as well. It might seem an eternity but between the time that I take the jumppad and I switch back to rockets there is less than one second. To me I didn't play it wrong here. But that's only my opinion of course, I'm open to all critics Smiley

[quote="Judgy"]I'm wondering if it would have been quicker to just have stayed on the main part of the map and kill people normally.[/quote]

It would have been much more consistent (and probably a bit faster in this case, albeit my missed rails), but I thought that considering my form I could save a few seconds by going in. Didn't turn out so good, but in my defense I wasn't so lucky either (major surviving my rail shot, me landing on jumpad, bot suiciding himself, my rail on major when she's on the other side missing I'm not sure how, then bot spawns behind me and machinegun me immediately, then when I respawn the two bots next to me doublekill themselves, and for the last frag Doom plus-backs like a coward... it's like the worse things that could have happened, happened, and all in a row :p)

[quote="Ewil"]unfortunately for the runner Quake 3 belongs to the "high-skill" club and as someone who have played this game for over 16 years, I can clearly see the runner lacks a bit of skill in movement.

@LotBlind: I never even thought about it up until about a year ago when people started doing runs on speedrun.com on I can win difficulty. Speedrunning this game is pretty much just RNG, especially on nightmare, that's why nobody does it. I can win difficulty is at least much more forgiving, but it's still RNG grind fest.

I'm not saying the run is bad. I actually tried couple levels myself and it isn't easy to at least match Diego's times, it's just that better movement could save a second here and there.

bot_nochat 1 - There are many instances, when a bot types after it dies, which means its respawn will be delayed by a second or two. And you always want to have all bots alive and moving. His explanation about killing a standing bot doesn't make much sense to me since you can kill bots very quickly, moving or standing. DM3 is a good example, where bot_nochat is very useful since it's a medium sized map with only 2 bots, so you have to keep "looking" around.

I forgot to mention he sometimes types out of frustration, as he explained. That doesn't save time either.

I also thought about the map_restart 0 command and realized you could maybe manipulate your starting position, at least on some maps, but it requires testing.[/quote]

I disagree about the run being all RNG.

From map to map of course, but every map having RNG, it's impossible to really get "overall good RNG", you might get good RNG on like 12 out of 26 maps, or 13 out of 26 maps, things like that, but unless you're doing millions of runs, to me RNG will never affect the run that much, certainly not as much as your performance will.

For the movement, there's a couple of bumps and missteps here and there, but if you're talking about the speed of the movement, I'm perfectly capable of strafejumping quickly, but in 99% of the run you never want to move too fast, it's a sure way to get yourself nailed by a bot. You always want to deal damage first and be the one that catch the enemy, it's much more important in my opinion. But if you've got specific example of places where I should move faster I'm all ears (I think that the rare places that it's actually safe to do so I do, but maybe I missed some). Also if you can show me that it's really possible to always go super fast in nightmare mode and consistently not lose time because of it, I'd be very interested in that (not at all that I'm planning to do another run, but I still like to learn more).

I know that you're very adamant about that bot_nochat 1, but personally I don't think that it makes that much of a difference either way. Yes you can kill a bot moving as quickly as a bot standing, but the damage that he will not deal to you while chatting might save you a lot of time later on. Then again, maybe you're right, maybe overall it's a little faster with bot_nochat 1, I haven't really tested it, but I don't think the difference would be that big even if that was the case. It'd certainly be interesting to test it out.

Typing out the frustration, first of all, doesn't lose me time, and most importantly, yes it does save time :) ! You can't visually or immediately see the effect, but if I let the anger build up in me I lose concentration and play worse :). This is not a usual thing for me to get frustrated, but remember that I did a lot of runs, lost a lot of time and was in actual physical pain because of it, so it builds up and after a while when something doesn't go in my way I get angry :p

For map_restart I actually do manipulate my first spawn a couple of times in the run :)

Anyway thanks for your input !

PS : Hey, you're not alone in that 16 years club :p

[quote="honorableJay"]questionable weapon choices (gauntlet chasing??)[/quote]

Hehe, I'm guessing you're probably talking about the two times that I attack Doom with the gauntlet, but for both of these I don't think it was the worse choice. 
The first time remember that I had just spawned, so I don't have any weapon. I'm going in a tight corridor so I of course pick the gauntlet, at the exit of the corridor I see Doom right there, I think the best choice was to go with the gauntlet.
The second time, it's for the last frag on DM17, I do initially use rockets, as he's plus-backing, but he's sneaky and as I close-in on him he also decides to rush me. I'm not sure that I have that much health left, so instinctively as he's like in my face, I pull out the gauntlet. Bad choice, he's on the jumppad now, well, I immediately take the jumppad as well. It might seem an eternity but between the time that I take the jumppad and I switch back to rockets there is less than one second. To me I didn't play it wrong here. But that's only my opinion of course, I'm open to all critics :)

Ewil

Edit history:

Ewil: 2016-07-23 12:18:19 pm

Ewil: 2016-07-23 12:18:06 pm

2016-07-23 12:17:48 pm

Quote from diegowar:

For the movement, there's a couple of bumps and missteps here and there, but if you're talking about the speed of the movement, I'm perfectly capable of strafejumping quickly, but in 99% of the run you never want to move too fast, it's a sure way to get yourself nailed by a bot. You always want to deal damage first and be the one that catch the enemy, it's much more important in my opinion. But if you've got specific example of places where I should move faster I'm all ears (I think that the rare places that it's actually safe to do so I do, but maybe I missed some). Also if you can show me that it's really possible to always go super fast in nightmare mode and consistently not lose time because of it, I'd be very interested in that (not at all that I'm planning to do another run, but I still like to learn more).

Like I said, it would save a bit of time when going for example for an armor, or when you're not fighting bots and just relocating to a better position. I completely understand why you camp around corners, that's not the issue Wink

Sometimes it's just better to wait for the bots to come to you.

Can you please explain what you mean by this? Cause I'm not sure I understand:

Quote:

but in 99% of the run you never want to move too fast, it's a sure way to get yourself nailed by a bot

[quote="diegowar"]For the movement, there's a couple of bumps and missteps here and there, but if you're talking about the speed of the movement, I'm perfectly capable of strafejumping quickly, but in 99% of the run you never want to move too fast, it's a sure way to get yourself nailed by a bot. You always want to deal damage first and be the one that catch the enemy, it's much more important in my opinion. But if you've got specific example of places where I should move faster I'm all ears (I think that the rare places that it's actually safe to do so I do, but maybe I missed some). Also if you can show me that it's really possible to always go super fast in nightmare mode and consistently not lose time because of it, I'd be very interested in that (not at all that I'm planning to do another run, but I still like to learn more).[/quote]

Like I said, it would save a bit of time when going for example for an armor, or when you're not fighting bots and just relocating to a better position. I completely understand why you camp around corners, that's not the issue ;) Sometimes it's just better to wait for the bots to come to you.

Can you please explain what you mean by this? Cause I'm not sure I understand:
[quote]but in 99% of the run you never want to move too fast, it's a sure way to get yourself nailed by a bot[/quote]

diegowar

2016-07-23 01:21:52 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

That's exactly what I mean : even you're just relocating for an armor or to find a bot, you don't want to come charging into the next room because that's a sure way to get you killed.

To me there's only really a very few moments where I have free reign to speed-up, and there aren't even that many moments where it's even possible to do two jumps in a row without meeting a wall or an enemy anyway, but if you've got specific moments in the run that you want to point out then I might agree with you, but from what I've seen I don't think there is room to move that much faster than I did without taking big risks.

Ewil

2016-07-23 04:19:52 pm

It just feels like some strafejumps could be better, but maybe I'm just being too picky. Maybe some day I'll show you what I mean Wink

honorableJay

2016-07-24 12:52:05 am

The Dork Knight himself.

Ewil I understand 100% what you mean since I was fuming seeing sub-optimal strafe jumping. But even if he saved the 1/4 of a second on each bad jump, the bots are too slow for it to really make a difference.

I've been playing single player Q3 for the last few days, and getting the bots to behave is a nuisance. No matter how quickly I get to an area, the bots are always going to be extremely late to the party since they walk everywhere. What really matters is finding the spots where the bots like to congregate and having the proper firepower on hand. It also helps to pray to RNJesus that they'll show up Cheesy

SDAVerification

2016-08-02 11:10:01 am

Decision posted.

diegowar

2016-12-26 09:21:09 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I no longer want to post this particular run on the website.

This is for several reasons, sorry for the trouble.

ktwo

2016-12-27 03:00:38 pm

Your submission has been cancelled and will not be posted here.