My feelings on The Demon Rush
Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/SuperC.html
PAL run (Probotector 2 is the PAL version of Super C)
Verifier Responses
Decision: Reject
Reason: It's close, but the run is still somewhat slower than vgmr's, and stage 8 was ugly. I'm sure the runner will knock those seconds off soon considering how many successful attempts he gets.
PAL run (Probotector 2 is the PAL version of Super C)
Verifier Responses
Quote:
Verifier: stage 1 is pretty bad
Verifier: 5 seconds lost
Verifier: maybe more
Verifier: not only that but the jump at the end was terrible
Verifier: its not bad so far
Verifier: i mean stage 2 is rough but idk how much time he actually loses
me: yeah it's not bad
Verifier: stage 3 boss is slow
me: like it's close to vgmr's run
me: but just wait
Verifier: l
Verifier: k
Verifier: i mean its not great
Verifier: but its not much worse than vgmrs
me: last stage was so bad though
Verifier: i'm watching that now
Verifier: so maybe i'll change my mind after it
Verifier: ok yea
Verifier: this is way too safe
Verifier: but like i can't see how putting this up would really hurt the site much
Verifier: because its so equivalent to vgmrs
Verifier: 5 seconds lost
Verifier: maybe more
Verifier: not only that but the jump at the end was terrible
Verifier: its not bad so far
Verifier: i mean stage 2 is rough but idk how much time he actually loses
me: yeah it's not bad
Verifier: stage 3 boss is slow
me: like it's close to vgmr's run
me: but just wait
Verifier: l
Verifier: k
Verifier: i mean its not great
Verifier: but its not much worse than vgmrs
me: last stage was so bad though
Verifier: i'm watching that now
Verifier: so maybe i'll change my mind after it
Verifier: ok yea
Verifier: this is way too safe
Verifier: but like i can't see how putting this up would really hurt the site much
Verifier: because its so equivalent to vgmrs
Quote:
Hi there Mike,
I watched the run several times and also watched it parallel to vgmr's (playing at 5\6
speed) to see how much of a difference there is. Because of desynchronization issues
after the bosses I timed how many frames it takes between killing a boss and starting
the next level. It does not only seem to take longer on PAL in real time, it takes
longer!
I started measuring the first frame the vulnerable spots of a boss disappeared and
stopped on the first frame showing the next level and did that for stages 1 to 4. It
was always between 1061 and 1065 frames on PAL and between 1067 and 1070 on NTSC. The
actual level seems to have exactly 5\6 times the speed on PAL.
If we assume the startpoint is the first frame where the player ascends after falling
from the helicopter and the endpoint is the first frame where the final boss descends,
then these are the runs' times with the time of seven transitions between the levels
subtracted:
MASTER-88 42261
vgmr 41808
That's a difference of about 450 frames and therefore nine seconds on PAL.
General Notes:
There are no deaths.
I didn't see something suspicious throughout the run.
Video and Audio seem fine.
Comparison to the current NTSC run
Area 1 and 2:
Pretty much the same. Although Master seems quite a bit faster in the beginning of
Level 2, but loses that time while dodging some bullets after the first two turrets.
Area 3:
Master loses some time constantly, but in the part before the mid boss he catches up
again and after the mid boss is defeated both videos are nearly perfectly in sync.
This lasts until after the boss is defeated. You see a difference in the style of the
boss fight, but the outcome's the same.
Area 4:
Master seems to have a slightly worse timing and constantly falls back. At the boss he
catches up a bit, but I still think he lost about two seconds.
Area 5:
Master is faster at the beginning, but loses his lead around the parts with the
rolling stones. (Damn, the second musical group sneaking into those comments!)
In the end he is behind by about a second.
Area 6:
He seems to be constantly losing a small amount of time. In the end it's about a
second.
Area 7:
This was really fun to watch in parallel!
Master loses time on those standing enemies at the beginning. (I call them drool pots)
He catches up completely while working downwards through the green slime, then loses
about two seconds on the spider pods and gains back one at the boss.
Area 8:
He said in his comments he was really nervous here and that is quite obvious. I guess
about half the time difference is on this level because of many minor mistakes and
flaws.
Minor flaws and mistakes in the run
While watching I had notepad open and took notes whenever I felt there could be
something done better. If you read that, it sounds like I commented on some really
crappy run, but I was just very, very nit-picking.
Stage 2:
Walks diagonally before turrets to dodge shoot. Long dodge for turret shoots. Hangs at
door after turrets.
Stage 3:
Short hestitation in second lake. Shooting enemies before miniboss to avoid lag seems to pay off.
Stage 4:
Hestitates to jump after first falling ceiling. Shortly after that hestitates on a
jump. Jumps too late off the first elevator.
Looks a bit sloppy on some parts without losing time.
Stage 5:
Loses time by stopping to kill first enemy. Too less slope Jumping in general.
Hestitates to jump one time before rocks.
Stage 6:
Too much diagonal walking after plant field. Standing closer to first form of boss could save some frames.
Stage 7:
Timing on second, fourth, fifth and sixth "drool pot" not fast enough. Spider pod part
is improvable.
Stage 8:
Unneccessary slowdown on first weapon supply. Shortly after that he has to interrupt a
jump and then loses time on killing one of those spore spitting enemies in the
ceiling. Stops to shoot weapon supply at gaps on long slope. Stops after jump on slope
at second alien head. Stops before small pit under crushing ceiling, two times.
Thoughts
Well, the run seems to be slower in the actual levels and is played on the slower PAL
version. That would justify a rejection, imho. Also, most of the time is lost in the last level and MASTER-88 is definitely able to do this one way better.
On the other hand the run is still good and differs in style as in speed on many parts. It's definitely worth watching and shows a lot of skill and optimization.
Decision
After all this is about speed. So the decision has to be "rejected".
The main reason is obvious: despite being faster on certain parts, it's slower in the end. And Area 8 looks just a bit too sloppy.
I just hope MASTER-88 doesn't feel discouraged, because he's definitely able to shave off another ten seconds.
I watched the run several times and also watched it parallel to vgmr's (playing at 5\6
speed) to see how much of a difference there is. Because of desynchronization issues
after the bosses I timed how many frames it takes between killing a boss and starting
the next level. It does not only seem to take longer on PAL in real time, it takes
longer!
I started measuring the first frame the vulnerable spots of a boss disappeared and
stopped on the first frame showing the next level and did that for stages 1 to 4. It
was always between 1061 and 1065 frames on PAL and between 1067 and 1070 on NTSC. The
actual level seems to have exactly 5\6 times the speed on PAL.
If we assume the startpoint is the first frame where the player ascends after falling
from the helicopter and the endpoint is the first frame where the final boss descends,
then these are the runs' times with the time of seven transitions between the levels
subtracted:
MASTER-88 42261
vgmr 41808
That's a difference of about 450 frames and therefore nine seconds on PAL.
General Notes:
There are no deaths.
I didn't see something suspicious throughout the run.
Video and Audio seem fine.
Comparison to the current NTSC run
Area 1 and 2:
Pretty much the same. Although Master seems quite a bit faster in the beginning of
Level 2, but loses that time while dodging some bullets after the first two turrets.
Area 3:
Master loses some time constantly, but in the part before the mid boss he catches up
again and after the mid boss is defeated both videos are nearly perfectly in sync.
This lasts until after the boss is defeated. You see a difference in the style of the
boss fight, but the outcome's the same.
Area 4:
Master seems to have a slightly worse timing and constantly falls back. At the boss he
catches up a bit, but I still think he lost about two seconds.
Area 5:
Master is faster at the beginning, but loses his lead around the parts with the
rolling stones. (Damn, the second musical group sneaking into those comments!)
In the end he is behind by about a second.
Area 6:
He seems to be constantly losing a small amount of time. In the end it's about a
second.
Area 7:
This was really fun to watch in parallel!
Master loses time on those standing enemies at the beginning. (I call them drool pots)
He catches up completely while working downwards through the green slime, then loses
about two seconds on the spider pods and gains back one at the boss.
Area 8:
He said in his comments he was really nervous here and that is quite obvious. I guess
about half the time difference is on this level because of many minor mistakes and
flaws.
Minor flaws and mistakes in the run
While watching I had notepad open and took notes whenever I felt there could be
something done better. If you read that, it sounds like I commented on some really
crappy run, but I was just very, very nit-picking.
Stage 2:
Walks diagonally before turrets to dodge shoot. Long dodge for turret shoots. Hangs at
door after turrets.
Stage 3:
Short hestitation in second lake. Shooting enemies before miniboss to avoid lag seems to pay off.
Stage 4:
Hestitates to jump after first falling ceiling. Shortly after that hestitates on a
jump. Jumps too late off the first elevator.
Looks a bit sloppy on some parts without losing time.
Stage 5:
Loses time by stopping to kill first enemy. Too less slope Jumping in general.
Hestitates to jump one time before rocks.
Stage 6:
Too much diagonal walking after plant field. Standing closer to first form of boss could save some frames.
Stage 7:
Timing on second, fourth, fifth and sixth "drool pot" not fast enough. Spider pod part
is improvable.
Stage 8:
Unneccessary slowdown on first weapon supply. Shortly after that he has to interrupt a
jump and then loses time on killing one of those spore spitting enemies in the
ceiling. Stops to shoot weapon supply at gaps on long slope. Stops after jump on slope
at second alien head. Stops before small pit under crushing ceiling, two times.
Thoughts
Well, the run seems to be slower in the actual levels and is played on the slower PAL
version. That would justify a rejection, imho. Also, most of the time is lost in the last level and MASTER-88 is definitely able to do this one way better.
On the other hand the run is still good and differs in style as in speed on many parts. It's definitely worth watching and shows a lot of skill and optimization.
Decision
After all this is about speed. So the decision has to be "rejected".
The main reason is obvious: despite being faster on certain parts, it's slower in the end. And Area 8 looks just a bit too sloppy.
I just hope MASTER-88 doesn't feel discouraged, because he's definitely able to shave off another ten seconds.
Quote:
Hello Mike,
Here's what I have for Probotector 2 -
Visual quality is good
Audio has parts where it sounds like a toy who's batteries are dying, but if that's just the way this version sounds, so be it.
No signs of cheating
Gameplay -
Area 1: Only stops for a second when getting the F power-up and once when stuck under enemy fire. Nice run under the last set of grenades. The helicopter could have been just a bit faster.
Area 2: Like the 1st level, he doesn't stop progressing except where enemy bullets force him to dodge. Nice game of chicken with the tank. He doesn't flinch, even when the tank starts to clip into him.
Area 3: The runner does a fantastic job of mowing the lawn in the beginning. Has a couple times where he turns to fire backwards instead of fully committing to the jump and shoot down strategy, but destroys the spider and fortress quickly.
Area 4: Stutter steps at both bubble locations, continual running probably could have kept the screen going to avoid the red bullet shooting robots to make it on screen and fire causing more delay to counteract. The rest of the level and boss were well done.
Area 5: No real complaints, almost misses one jump going up the hills for some nice suspense. Boss was done very quickly.
Area 6: This level was basically perfect.
Area 7: The runner seems to have a bit of trouble blasting down through the green eggs and kills an extra sppider pod, but again, the boss was shot in half speedily to keep the time down.
Area 8: Definitely some room for improvement here. He stops several times to kill enemies that could be skipped, waits for the M to drop instead of going under, waits for an S to drop (You already have S, just get it again and go for it), stops to shoot an L. He also shows a deal of uncertainty during the dropping ceiling piece. He does make short work of the final boss though, took him longer to come out then to die.
Overall, the things to gripe about are few and cost fractions of a second. They just nickle and dime at the overall completion time. Such is life in the single segment arena. The runner really makes good time on all the bosses minus the helicopter, which lands him a great time in the end.
I timed it at 17:02 from the point of hot drop and letting go of the rope to final boss defeat and loss of control.
Decision - ACCEPT
Here's what I have for Probotector 2 -
Visual quality is good
Audio has parts where it sounds like a toy who's batteries are dying, but if that's just the way this version sounds, so be it.
No signs of cheating
Gameplay -
Area 1: Only stops for a second when getting the F power-up and once when stuck under enemy fire. Nice run under the last set of grenades. The helicopter could have been just a bit faster.
Area 2: Like the 1st level, he doesn't stop progressing except where enemy bullets force him to dodge. Nice game of chicken with the tank. He doesn't flinch, even when the tank starts to clip into him.
Area 3: The runner does a fantastic job of mowing the lawn in the beginning. Has a couple times where he turns to fire backwards instead of fully committing to the jump and shoot down strategy, but destroys the spider and fortress quickly.
Area 4: Stutter steps at both bubble locations, continual running probably could have kept the screen going to avoid the red bullet shooting robots to make it on screen and fire causing more delay to counteract. The rest of the level and boss were well done.
Area 5: No real complaints, almost misses one jump going up the hills for some nice suspense. Boss was done very quickly.
Area 6: This level was basically perfect.
Area 7: The runner seems to have a bit of trouble blasting down through the green eggs and kills an extra sppider pod, but again, the boss was shot in half speedily to keep the time down.
Area 8: Definitely some room for improvement here. He stops several times to kill enemies that could be skipped, waits for the M to drop instead of going under, waits for an S to drop (You already have S, just get it again and go for it), stops to shoot an L. He also shows a deal of uncertainty during the dropping ceiling piece. He does make short work of the final boss though, took him longer to come out then to die.
Overall, the things to gripe about are few and cost fractions of a second. They just nickle and dime at the overall completion time. Such is life in the single segment arena. The runner really makes good time on all the bosses minus the helicopter, which lands him a great time in the end.
I timed it at 17:02 from the point of hot drop and letting go of the rope to final boss defeat and loss of control.
Decision - ACCEPT
Quote:
These runs are getting better, but this still isn't good enough. This run is still slower than vgmr's in some places (end of first stage, fourth boss), and there are a lot of ugly mistakes in stage 8 (lots of hesitating, dodging the m). I think 10 more seconds off the time will make this run acceptable.
Quote:
Video's a bit fuzzy in places, and the audio sounds muffled and/or warbly at times. I don't know if that's the fault of the cart itself but it grated on my ears after a while.
No deaths.
No cheating.
Most of the run is quite fast an error-free, a few hitches here and there but nothing notable. He knows exactly where to jump and which items to pick up, only stopping momentarily at various places. Good planning and execution, except for below.
In level 7 however he wastes a few seconds shooting an egg that he doesn't need to and then during the section where you need to 'dig' it seems like he forgot to hit jump a few times, causing him to shoot the wall instead of downward. Strikes me as a bit sloppy.
Then in level 8 he hesitates when he shoots a powerup, avoiding it instead of catching it, even though it was one that would have been fine to pick up anyway! Biggest mistake of the run, and one that sort of jarred me.
Overall, though, it's a high quality run and it's obvious the player knows what he's doing. I'd say accept, especially if the audio issues are something that's either on my end or not an issue with the recording method (as in the cart sounds like that).
No deaths.
No cheating.
Most of the run is quite fast an error-free, a few hitches here and there but nothing notable. He knows exactly where to jump and which items to pick up, only stopping momentarily at various places. Good planning and execution, except for below.
In level 7 however he wastes a few seconds shooting an egg that he doesn't need to and then during the section where you need to 'dig' it seems like he forgot to hit jump a few times, causing him to shoot the wall instead of downward. Strikes me as a bit sloppy.
Then in level 8 he hesitates when he shoots a powerup, avoiding it instead of catching it, even though it was one that would have been fine to pick up anyway! Biggest mistake of the run, and one that sort of jarred me.
Overall, though, it's a high quality run and it's obvious the player knows what he's doing. I'd say accept, especially if the audio issues are something that's either on my end or not an issue with the recording method (as in the cart sounds like that).
Quote:
the quality is fine and I can´t say he have been cheating. I owned probotector 2 for a while so I know its basic differences between Super C and this one. It is about the same differences as most other NES game around this time. The game plays about 5/6 of the NTSC speed and include a little bit less lag I think.
So in average, Probotector II is a little bit easier to run in the tricky parts. and due to my knowledge, it is hard to compare the games by compare the timing because you can not really prove the differences exactly time-wise. It is better to compare them by skills. so I watched and compared the levels between this run and VGmr`s Super C speedrun.
Stage 1:
Master 88 went trough those bombs on the last hill but he was slower on the boss then VGmr. and a little bit of bad luck because he had to shot that enemy.
a little bit slower then VGmr´s first level. as I can tell.
Stage 2:
I have not studied this level in details. but a fast look, comparing this run with VGmrs Super C run. I can not tell which run is faster.
Stage 3: Master 88 stops before jumping over the wall that explodes and also stops once in the water part. On the other hand, VGmr have some lag when he was playing because there was so many enemies at the screen at the same time.
I think VGmr`s run is slightly faster here. about 1 second.
The boss fights is not the same but equal in speed.
Stage 4:
I haven´t watch this in slow motion with a stop watch so those runs probably do not tie each other. The runs are about the same here as I can tell.
Stage 5:
The same for this level. I have a feeling of that Master 88 is a little bit faster here but I can´t tell.
Stage 6:
Same again. The same shit. No one is eaten.
Stage 7:
It is big differences, watch this level and compare VGmr with Master88. VGmr is a lot more aggressive then MAster88 so he is probably at least a couple of seconds faster.
Its true, I do not know what the hell VGmr. Hanson was doing during the "blowing the bubbles part" Tongue but Master 88 screwed up almost as much there too.
The part after that. Master stopped in unnecessary places. specially when he shoot the enemy to the left for almost no reason. Just that moment cost him a couple of seconds.
And for the boss fight. I timed it.
VGmr ~ 14s.
Master88 ~ 18s.
So about tied there.
Stage 8:
Master stops 7 more time then VGmr or so, he do the level a lot slower. a couple of seconds at least. He kill the final boss about to seconds faster using the spread gun but in average he is slower.
In the end I am more impressed over VGmr`s Super C speedrun so I can not pass this run if I make the decision in the name of SDA. Too me. If VGmr would have done the same playtrough on probotector II it would have been around 10s faster. Probably more.
For my own sake. I am glad to watch a Probotector II run and be able to see how fast you can beat it so I want a record on the internet. but this is not enough for this site.
I guess I would pass it if it was 10-20 seconds faster or so.
So in average, Probotector II is a little bit easier to run in the tricky parts. and due to my knowledge, it is hard to compare the games by compare the timing because you can not really prove the differences exactly time-wise. It is better to compare them by skills. so I watched and compared the levels between this run and VGmr`s Super C speedrun.
Stage 1:
Master 88 went trough those bombs on the last hill but he was slower on the boss then VGmr. and a little bit of bad luck because he had to shot that enemy.
a little bit slower then VGmr´s first level. as I can tell.
Stage 2:
I have not studied this level in details. but a fast look, comparing this run with VGmrs Super C run. I can not tell which run is faster.
Stage 3: Master 88 stops before jumping over the wall that explodes and also stops once in the water part. On the other hand, VGmr have some lag when he was playing because there was so many enemies at the screen at the same time.
I think VGmr`s run is slightly faster here. about 1 second.
The boss fights is not the same but equal in speed.
Stage 4:
I haven´t watch this in slow motion with a stop watch so those runs probably do not tie each other. The runs are about the same here as I can tell.
Stage 5:
The same for this level. I have a feeling of that Master 88 is a little bit faster here but I can´t tell.
Stage 6:
Same again. The same shit. No one is eaten.
Stage 7:
It is big differences, watch this level and compare VGmr with Master88. VGmr is a lot more aggressive then MAster88 so he is probably at least a couple of seconds faster.
Its true, I do not know what the hell VGmr. Hanson was doing during the "blowing the bubbles part" Tongue but Master 88 screwed up almost as much there too.
The part after that. Master stopped in unnecessary places. specially when he shoot the enemy to the left for almost no reason. Just that moment cost him a couple of seconds.
And for the boss fight. I timed it.
VGmr ~ 14s.
Master88 ~ 18s.
So about tied there.
Stage 8:
Master stops 7 more time then VGmr or so, he do the level a lot slower. a couple of seconds at least. He kill the final boss about to seconds faster using the spread gun but in average he is slower.
In the end I am more impressed over VGmr`s Super C speedrun so I can not pass this run if I make the decision in the name of SDA. Too me. If VGmr would have done the same playtrough on probotector II it would have been around 10s faster. Probably more.
For my own sake. I am glad to watch a Probotector II run and be able to see how fast you can beat it so I want a record on the internet. but this is not enough for this site.
I guess I would pass it if it was 10-20 seconds faster or so.
Decision: Reject
Reason: It's close, but the run is still somewhat slower than vgmr's, and stage 8 was ugly. I'm sure the runner will knock those seconds off soon considering how many successful attempts he gets.
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