Pokemon Colosseum! 100% 7:17!! Improvement on the way!!!

HalfMillennium

2009-09-04 08:16:01 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Good luck with it, look forward to seeing the completed run.

Toothache

2009-09-19 02:27:57 pm

Let the music play!

Hey guys guess what? I've finally posted some videos, including the previously described Segment 31, and Segment 32 the Deep King Colosseum!

Segment 31 Part A:
Segment 31 Part B:

Segment 32 Part A:
Segment 32 Part B:

The Deep King Colosseum isn't the toughest of the 5, but it is certainly no pushover. As with all the Colosseums, it contains 4 battles.

Rider Nelon: A deceptively easy start, mostly a bit of a exp screw at this point in the game, since all the Pokemon here are the lowest forms. You face Shuppet, Nincada, and Horsea. Yeah, not much of a threat, but I did require two bits of luck here. The first is the starting order of the fight - it could start as Shuppet + Nincada, where I would use Surf to take out everything in one shot, or Shuppet and Horsea, where I would use Earthquake first turn and Surf for the water-weak Nincada. The other piece of luck needed here is that Skarmory re-enters Hyper Mode.

Athlete Lorge: This battle caused a lot of resets too, because every one of the Pokemon here was a threat to Skarmory. Kadabra has Fire Punch (which is actually special based in Adv), Kecleon has Flamethrower, Misdreavus has Shock Wave, and Seadra has Waterfall. Skarm cannot survive any of the fire moves, and barely survives the other two attacks. With that in mind, I had to be real careful about my damage intake on Skarmory, and deal with this battle in a specific way. Misdreavus could not start, for one, because its Levitate ruins my chances of using Earthquake for a quick start.

In the successful attempt, it starts with Kecleon and Kadabra. Kadabra cannot survive Earthquake, but Kecleon can, thankfully it is slower than Skarmory so it can finish the Pokemon off. Next out is Seadra and Misdreavus. I decide to Hydro Pump Missy so I can get more damage out of Earthquake next turn, while Seadra uses Agility and Skarmory softens it up with Shadow Rush. As you can see, this finish also required a fair bit of luck because Skarmory finishes with a mere 3 HP after all the recoil damage and Waterfall.

Hunter Grons: Oh what fun, more Intimidate. Thankfully, this battle isnt as annoying as the other ones featuring that ability. Mawile cannot survive Earthquake, even with Intimidate in play. Relicanth normally takes something like a third damage, but I get a lucky crit here and take it out on the first turn. This just leaves Murkrow, for an easy finish.

If that particular crit hadn't happened, this battle would have gone slightly differently. Earthquake again would have been the first move, and Skarmory can 2HKO Murkrow. This just leaves Relicanth, which can be KOed by the Earthquake + Hydro Pump.

Deep King Agnol: Finally, a face to face challenge with the fabled Deep King himself. He sports a full squad of 6 Pokemon, one of the few trainers to actually do so in this game. This battle can start in several ways, but here it starts with Sableye and Skarmory. I elect to get rid of Skarmory first so I can stick with Earthquake for the remainder of the battle, since it is his only flier. Sableye uses Confuse Ray on Feraligatr, and takes a Shadow Rush to soften it up for next turn.

Next out is Girafarig. Knowing what Agnol will do next means I will save Skarmory for later, and switch out to safety in Tropius. Tropius gets paralysed, so I decide to let it die so I can bring in Espeon for the Helping Hand. Feraligatr uses Earthquake, which damages Girafarig badly and finishes off Sableye. Agnol has 3 Full Restores, and it would be very tricky to avoid him using any.

Now I am facing Girafarig and Kingdra. Girafarig takes the first of Agnol's Full Restores, and Kingdra Ice Beams Tropius. With that, I can bring in Espeon, since I can OHKO Girafarig with Helping Hand Earthquake. This has the unfortunate side effect of causing Agnol to use his second Full Restore on Kingdra, but rather 2 than 3. Incidentally, I do hit myself in confusion - this is actually faster and works in my favour for this battle, since I would cause all three of Agnol's Full Restores to be used otherwise.

Anyway, with Girafarig down on Agnol's side, and Espeon down on my own, time to use a surprisingly fast tactic for dealing with Agnol's fifth Pokemon, Shedinja. This problematic little Pokemon is easily dealt with by Tyranitar's Sand Stream, since it only has 1 HP and isnt immune to indirect damage, only non-super effective direct attacks. This brings out Agnol's final Pokemon, and the one I'm really here for, his Shadow Shuckle. Since I dont actually need Tyranitar for the Fake Hero fight, I have no hesitation in using Earthquake to finish off Kingdra and Tyranitar - switching out would be slower, and Kingdra can resist anything else I throw at it besides Blizzard, which I wasnt prepared to risk at this point. Tyranitar's turn was used for the snag.

With that out the way, I head back up on the UFO, and head across to the save next to The Under Colosseum and save there. All that is left now is just the mail messages leading to the Fake Hero fight, and the fight itself. Technically the run itself will finish when I actually snag Togetic, so I will keep trying until it appears in the lead (happens more often than you might think).

So yeah, I am nearly done. Did a quick test run of the final segment, and came to a final time of 7:25 after the Fake Hero battle, so maybe looking at a final time of about 7:22 for the Togetic snag itself. In the meantime, while I'm preparing for the final segment, I'm also preparing for the audio commentary for this run (oh yes, I am that insane!). Stay tuned to Toothache Radio, folks!!

Hey guys guess what? I've finally posted some videos, including the previously described Segment 31, and Segment 32 the Deep King Colosseum!

Segment 31 Part A: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muj69bwuI3E
Segment 31 Part B: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa3NH_odCM0

Segment 32 Part A: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8lDSCgkeok
Segment 32 Part B: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8Lc34ElQ9I

The Deep King Colosseum isn't the toughest of the 5, but it is certainly no pushover. As with all the Colosseums, it contains 4 battles.

Rider Nelon: A deceptively easy start, mostly a bit of a exp screw at this point in the game, since all the Pokemon here are the lowest forms. You face Shuppet, Nincada, and Horsea. Yeah, not much of a threat, but I did require two bits of luck here. The first is the starting order of the fight - it could start as Shuppet + Nincada, where I would use Surf to take out everything in one shot, or Shuppet and Horsea, where I would use Earthquake first turn and Surf for the water-weak Nincada. The other piece of luck needed here is that Skarmory re-enters Hyper Mode.

Athlete Lorge: This battle caused a lot of resets too, because every one of the Pokemon here was a threat to Skarmory. Kadabra has Fire Punch (which is actually special based in Adv), Kecleon has Flamethrower, Misdreavus has Shock Wave, and Seadra has Waterfall. Skarm cannot survive any of the fire moves, and barely survives the other two attacks. With that in mind, I had to be real careful about my damage intake on Skarmory, and deal with this battle in a specific way. Misdreavus could not start, for one, because its Levitate ruins my chances of using Earthquake for a quick start.

In the successful attempt, it starts with Kecleon and Kadabra. Kadabra cannot survive Earthquake, but Kecleon can, thankfully it is slower than Skarmory so it can finish the Pokemon off. Next out is Seadra and Misdreavus. I decide to Hydro Pump Missy so I can get more damage out of Earthquake next turn, while Seadra uses Agility and Skarmory softens it up with Shadow Rush. As you can see, this finish also required a fair bit of luck because Skarmory finishes with a mere 3 HP after all the recoil damage and Waterfall.

Hunter Grons: Oh what fun, more Intimidate. Thankfully, this battle isnt as annoying as the other ones featuring that ability. Mawile cannot survive Earthquake, even with Intimidate in play. Relicanth normally takes something like a third damage, but I get a lucky crit here and take it out on the first turn. This just leaves Murkrow, for an easy finish.

If that particular crit hadn't happened, this battle would have gone slightly differently. Earthquake again would have been the first move, and Skarmory can 2HKO Murkrow. This just leaves Relicanth, which can be KOed by the Earthquake + Hydro Pump.

Deep King Agnol: Finally, a face to face challenge with the fabled Deep King himself. He sports a full squad of 6 Pokemon, one of the few trainers to actually do so in this game. This battle can start in several ways, but here it starts with Sableye and Skarmory. I elect to get rid of Skarmory first so I can stick with Earthquake for the remainder of the battle, since it is his only flier. Sableye uses Confuse Ray on Feraligatr, and takes a Shadow Rush to soften it up for next turn.

Next out is Girafarig. Knowing what Agnol will do next means I will save Skarmory for later, and switch out to safety in Tropius. Tropius gets paralysed, so I decide to let it die so I can bring in Espeon for the Helping Hand. Feraligatr uses Earthquake, which damages Girafarig badly and finishes off Sableye. Agnol has 3 Full Restores, and it would be very tricky to avoid him using any.

Now I am facing Girafarig and Kingdra. Girafarig takes the first of Agnol's Full Restores, and Kingdra Ice Beams Tropius. With that, I can bring in Espeon, since I can OHKO Girafarig with Helping Hand Earthquake. This has the unfortunate side effect of causing Agnol to use his second Full Restore on Kingdra, but rather 2 than 3. Incidentally, I do hit myself in confusion - this is actually faster and works in my favour for this battle, since I would cause all three of Agnol's Full Restores to be used otherwise.

Anyway, with Girafarig down on Agnol's side, and Espeon down on my own, time to use a surprisingly fast tactic for dealing with Agnol's fifth Pokemon, Shedinja. This problematic little Pokemon is easily dealt with by Tyranitar's Sand Stream, since it only has 1 HP and isnt immune to indirect damage, only non-super effective direct attacks. This brings out Agnol's final Pokemon, and the one I'm really here for, his Shadow Shuckle. Since I dont actually need Tyranitar for the Fake Hero fight, I have no hesitation in using Earthquake to finish off Kingdra and Tyranitar - switching out would be slower, and Kingdra can resist anything else I throw at it besides Blizzard, which I wasnt prepared to risk at this point. Tyranitar's turn was used for the snag.

With that out the way, I head back up on the UFO, and head across to the save next to The Under Colosseum and save there. All that is left now is just the mail messages leading to the Fake Hero fight, and the fight itself. Technically the run itself will finish when I actually snag Togetic, so I will keep trying until it appears in the lead (happens more often than you might think).

So yeah, I am nearly done. Did a quick test run of the final segment, and came to a final time of 7:25 after the Fake Hero battle, so maybe looking at a final time of about 7:22 for the Togetic snag itself. In the meantime, while I'm preparing for the final segment, I'm also preparing for the audio commentary for this run (oh yes, I am that insane!). Stay tuned to Toothache Radio, folks!!

P1 Paused

2009-09-20 06:43:32 am

Quote from Toothache:

In the meantime, while I'm preparing for the final segment, I'm also preparing for the audio commentary for this run (oh yes, I am that insane!). Stay tuned to Toothache Radio, folks!!

Awesome. Adding comentary will make this a great re-watch.

I have seen Loraks LP of this, and I can imagine you smogon types having trouble fitting everything in that yo have to say with only 7 and a half hours.

Beenman500

2009-09-21 10:04:05 am

Joke of all trades

oh wow, audio commentary can't wait. don't worry about your horrible voice or if you can't think of anything to say, seriously blank noise or breathing, is funner than the games sound

Toothache

2009-09-22 10:53:58 am

Let the music play!

Good news everyone! The run is complete!!

Final Time: (counting up to the snag of Togetic): 7:17!!!

Managed to work out the best way to deal with the mail messages leading up to the Fake Hero fight. Moving between The Under and Pyrite Town on the map doesnt cause the normal cutscene, so I use that to save time, and flick through the required mails and TV viewing as quickly as I feasibly can. As far as I understand from speaking to jewyama, the run officially ends when the final snag is completed (because I have already seen the credits once), which happens as the very first action in the Fake Hero battle. After that, I play around with the battle itself, and cut it very close to finish. I switch back to the PDA after the battle so I can compare the ingame time with the time of the Togetic snag itself.

Only thing to do now is to start recording audio commentary, and once that is complete I'll transfer this all to nate. Thanks for the support everyone, it has been a long time in getting here, but it has been fun if challenging. I won't be attempting the any% run just yet, I think I need a good break from this game before coming back to it, if anyone else wants to attempt that in the meantime feel free. I reckon a good time for any% run to Evice would be around 4:20 or less. Sub 4 hours might be possible, but it would require TAS-like luck I think. There'd be very little difference between the any% and 100% run, with perhaps the exception of a few snags.

As for this run itself, sure it is improvable, but that would required a lot more luck than I was able to squeeze out of this run. Biggest mistakes came in the second Skrub fight with Wobbuffet, and the segment I'd most like to redo is probably Segment 2, because I was under the mistaken belief at the time that Bite was only 10% flinch chance and not 30%, so I could save several seconds there alone. As for manipulating the game to get critical hits, that is a story for another time, but to be honest the game mechanics are not understood yet, so I probably did the best I can under the circumstances, taking the few lucky crits I could manage.

Once again, thank you everyone, and see you next run :-)

PS: I quite like the music to this game :-p

Good news everyone! The run is complete!!

Final Time: (counting up to the snag of Togetic): 7:17!!!

Managed to work out the best way to deal with the mail messages leading up to the Fake Hero fight. Moving between The Under and Pyrite Town on the map doesnt cause the normal cutscene, so I use that to save time, and flick through the required mails and TV viewing as quickly as I feasibly can. As far as I understand from speaking to jewyama, the run officially ends when the final snag is completed (because I have already seen the credits once), which happens as the very first action in the Fake Hero battle. After that, I play around with the battle itself, and cut it very close to finish. I switch back to the PDA after the battle so I can compare the ingame time with the time of the Togetic snag itself.

Only thing to do now is to start recording audio commentary, and once that is complete I'll transfer this all to nate. Thanks for the support everyone, it has been a long time in getting here, but it has been fun if challenging. I won't be attempting the any% run just yet, I think I need a good break from this game before coming back to it, if anyone else wants to attempt that in the meantime feel free. I reckon a good time for any% run to Evice would be around 4:20 or less. Sub 4 hours might be possible, but it would require TAS-like luck I think. There'd be very little difference between the any% and 100% run, with perhaps the exception of a few snags.

As for this run itself, sure it is improvable, but that would required a lot more luck than I was able to squeeze out of this run. Biggest mistakes came in the second Skrub fight with Wobbuffet, and the segment I'd most like to redo is probably Segment 2, because I was under the mistaken belief at the time that Bite was only 10% flinch chance and not 30%, so I could save several seconds there alone. As for manipulating the game to get critical hits, that is a story for another time, but to be honest the game mechanics are not understood yet, so I probably did the best I can under the circumstances, taking the few lucky crits I could manage.

Once again, thank you everyone, and see you next run :-)

PS: I quite like the music to this game :-p

Ascetic Swordsman

2009-09-22 01:56:25 pm

Congratulations on getting the run done. That's another Pokemon game beaten faster then any regular player would believe, despite video evidence as proof. I have no idea how you're going to come up with over seven hours of commentary but I'm sure it'll be good.

BTW, I thought Miror B's battle theme in XD was better.

HalfMillennium

2009-09-22 03:47:19 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Congrats, look forward to the completed run.

Beenman500

2009-11-17 01:14:05 pm

Joke of all trades

hey, when are you planning on submiting this run, or are you witing till you finish the audio comments or something?

Cremdogz

2009-12-02 06:32:23 am

Glad you've finished this run, I'll certainly be watching it, but only with the audio commentary. It makes it so much more entertaining to watch and in some cases, re-watch with audio commentary, so I'm very grateful for that.

pneuma

2010-06-14 08:00:29 am

Amazing run! All of the boss battles were right to the wire (10 hp and burned at the end of Dakim 1 was beyond epic) and excusing some <1 minute errors and not wanting to reset for stats until the end of time, it was flawless.
9 months from submission to publication is Undecided

, but congratulations on such a great job!

I hope that a Pokemon game with faster battles (not just turning animations off) gets released someday, because Surf alone had to have been ~40% of the total running time.

Mystery

2010-06-14 10:39:29 am

You did one glaring mistake in your comments, though.
From segmented #9:
"This battle was pretty tough to do, since I need a critical Shadow Rush + Helping Hand to OHKO his Ludicolo, and they all carry super-effective attacks to Croconaw, making his survival during the first half of the battle difficult to maintain."
I see you merely default to "he" for things you don't put a gender to, but Croconaw is a SHE in the game!
So either it should read her, or it.
Oops Tongue

Toothache

2011-01-13 03:35:38 am

Let the music play!

Resurrecting this since I've started testing any% single segment. Got up to Dakim 1 with a random starter/Croconaw at around 2:30, which wasn't bad but could be better. I didn't get further cos a friend came around and interrupted my attempt, so I've saved after Mt Battle #8, in order to get a rough estimate for final time, although I am expecting around 5h 30m for an average time, 5h for an exceptional time.

Things I've discovered already:

Umbreon becomes a lot more useful in this, since it can take hits much more readily, and Espeon was basically locked into healing every turn on the Mantine battle, much like in the 100% run. I've a feeling Umbreon will be faster for Mantine, especially if I get some luck with Secret Power's paralysis.

I also need a fair bit of luck with Miror B: For the same strategy to work, I'll need to get Croconaw in Hyper Mode by the time I reach Miror B. I've a feeling unless the attack stat is exceptional (25+ IV) Croconaw will fail to OHKO Ludicolo with the Helping Hand boosted crit Shadow Rush. My first test run pulled out a very average Hasty Croconaw, which suffered a bit with Surf damage, but still managed to rip through the solo battles easily in Mt Battle. Since I KOed the other Shadow Pokemon I've encountered so far, both Espeon and Croconaw get a bit higher level, so I can compensate for the random IVs.

Next test will be the challenge of soloing Dakim, then its back to the real problems of Venus 1 and Ein 1. Hopefully I'll get Espeon to L36 by the time he reaches Venus so I can have Psybeam for that fight, will make it that much easier, but still a problem. The odds are I'll have a male Croconaw too, which will make Attract more of an issue too. Still, I think it is doable in a reasonable time, and I plan to use as few Revives as possible to get a decent time, so a lot of luck is needed.

Resurrecting this since I've started testing any% single segment. Got up to Dakim 1 with a random starter/Croconaw at around 2:30, which wasn't bad but could be better. I didn't get further cos a friend came around and interrupted my attempt, so I've saved after Mt Battle #8, in order to get a rough estimate for final time, although I am expecting around 5h 30m for an average time, 5h for an exceptional time.

Things I've discovered already:

Umbreon becomes a lot more useful in this, since it can take hits much more readily, and Espeon was basically locked into healing every turn on the Mantine battle, much like in the 100% run. I've a feeling Umbreon will be faster for Mantine, especially if I get some luck with Secret Power's paralysis.

I also need a fair bit of luck with Miror B: For the same strategy to work, I'll need to get Croconaw in Hyper Mode by the time I reach Miror B. I've a feeling unless the attack stat is exceptional (25+ IV) Croconaw will fail to OHKO Ludicolo with the Helping Hand boosted crit Shadow Rush. My first test run pulled out a very average Hasty Croconaw, which suffered a bit with Surf damage, but still managed to rip through the solo battles easily in Mt Battle. Since I KOed the other Shadow Pokemon I've encountered so far, both Espeon and Croconaw get a bit higher level, so I can compensate for the random IVs.

Next test will be the challenge of soloing Dakim, then its back to the real problems of Venus 1 and Ein 1. Hopefully I'll get Espeon to L36 by the time he reaches Venus so I can have Psybeam for that fight, will make it that much easier, but still a problem. The odds are I'll have a male Croconaw too, which will make Attract more of an issue too. Still, I think it is doable in a reasonable time, and I plan to use as few Revives as possible to get a decent time, so a lot of luck is needed.

Hariyama465

2011-01-13 07:25:03 pm

Hey Toothache it's great to see you getting back on this game again. You have my support for this any% run. Have you given proper consideration to using anyone besides Espeon/Umbreon as well as Croconaw? I know you must have probably because you already did the 100% run but I know from XD experience that some pokemon are better for single segment, and others aren't.

Toothache

2011-01-14 03:53:11 am

Let the music play!

I have looked into other Pokemon, but since the exp scales pretty slowly compared to the levels you face, its a problem for a lot of Pokemon. Other Pokemon will probably have their uses since there are bulkier stuff to use for taking damage, and more offensive stuff to use for dishing it out. Generally, Feraligatr's early Surf access should prove faster for most offensive purposes in the long run, and Espeon's high SpA should definitely be nice for the early damage it can do. Move coverage is a big issue for most things, as well as most Pokemon available having average Attack stats. I can see some stuff having possibilities though, with Vibrava going to Flygon being a welcome addition with 100 base Attack, Levitate and decent coverage. A lot of the more offensive Pokemon like Ampharos tend to be slow, which hurts speedrunning since you want to get priority over most enemies.

I've got the time to test stuff anyway, so I'll certainly explore using other Pokemon. Since this will be single segment I'll have to find more reliable ways to get through the more difficult battles that were very luck based with the segmented run, which will generally involve using more Pokemon and possibly more Revives.

I have looked into other Pokemon, but since the exp scales pretty slowly compared to the levels you face, its a problem for a lot of Pokemon. Other Pokemon will probably have their uses since there are bulkier stuff to use for taking damage, and more offensive stuff to use for dishing it out. Generally, Feraligatr's early Surf access should prove faster for most offensive purposes in the long run, and Espeon's high SpA should definitely be nice for the early damage it can do. Move coverage is a big issue for most things, as well as most Pokemon available having average Attack stats. I can see some stuff having possibilities though, with Vibrava going to Flygon being a welcome addition with 100 base Attack, Levitate and decent coverage. A lot of the more offensive Pokemon like Ampharos tend to be slow, which hurts speedrunning since you want to get priority over most enemies.

I've got the time to test stuff anyway, so I'll certainly explore using other Pokemon. Since this will be single segment I'll have to find more reliable ways to get through the more difficult battles that were very luck based with the segmented run, which will generally involve using more Pokemon and possibly more Revives.

Hariyama465

2011-01-15 12:46:15 pm

Oh yeah. I forgot about Helping Hand boosting Surf. Man I wish there was something like that for XD. And yeah, Espeon's a beast with its SpA. I was thinking about Vibrava earlier, but he does come a little late, although the typing is great.

Yeah what I've learned is that you can find the best Pokemon for your situation in the last place you'd expect it, so try out everybody. Although, with Helping Hand + Surf combination it's going to be really tough to find something that can beat it.

In a segmented run I might have tried out Meditite cause it evolves pretty quickly (in 4 levels), has an insane attack stat (with Huge Power), and with Hi Jump Kick it could tear through things that even resist it...but for a single segment this is probably not a good idea.

Us Gamecube Pokemon speedrunners are forced to use quick Pokemon. We can't afford to let the opponent go first because it takes a lot of time to see the animation of attacks, and you can't turn it off like in the GBA games. In a single segment, I'd say this is even more crucial since you can't manipulate anything, so you have to minimize as much luck as you can by using the strongest/fastest.

As you said pokemon like Ampharos, Magcargo wouldn't work out. One thing I did for XD that made me realize Breloom was the best was I looked at every single enemy pokemon I would be going up against, and realized half of them were weak to Fighting and the other half weak to Psychic. Since you've already ran Colosseum, you probably already know what type the majority of the enemies are, but you should use whoever is strongest to them to nab quick wins.

What's your opinion on using the Legendary Dogs? I don't think you used them in your any%, but they might be good in a single segment run

Oh yeah. I forgot about Helping Hand boosting Surf. Man I wish there was something like that for XD. And yeah, Espeon's a beast with its SpA. I was thinking about Vibrava earlier, but he does come a little late, although the typing is great.

Yeah what I've learned is that you can find the best Pokemon for your situation in the last place you'd expect it, so try out everybody. Although, with Helping Hand + Surf combination it's going to be really tough to find something that can beat it.

In a segmented run I might have tried out Meditite cause it evolves pretty quickly (in 4 levels), has an insane attack stat (with Huge Power), and with Hi Jump Kick it could tear through things that even resist it...but for a single segment this is probably not a good idea.

Us Gamecube Pokemon speedrunners are forced to use quick Pokemon. We can't afford to let the opponent go first because it takes a lot of time to see the animation of attacks, and you can't turn it off like in the GBA games. In a single segment, I'd say this is even more crucial since you can't manipulate anything, so you have to minimize as much luck as you can by using the strongest/fastest.

As you said pokemon like Ampharos, Magcargo wouldn't work out. One thing I did for XD that made me realize Breloom was the best was I looked at every single enemy pokemon I would be going up against, and realized half of them were weak to Fighting and the other half weak to Psychic. Since you've already ran Colosseum, you probably already know what type the majority of the enemies are, but you should use whoever is strongest to them to nab quick wins.

What's your opinion on using the Legendary Dogs? I don't think you used them in your any%, but they might be good in a single segment run

Toothache

Edit history:

Toothache: 2011-01-16 07:58:16 am

Toothache: 2011-01-16 07:52:54 am

2011-01-16 03:13:13 am

Let the music play!

Using the gerbils might be an option. Entei comes early enough that he can get decent exp to keep up and still do a reasonable amount of damage, and even before purification he can do a nice number with 115 base Attack + Shadow Rush. Entei's bulk might help when taking damage too.

The main problem with the gerbils as I see it is that they fall under the Slow exp category. The Eeveelutions are also in Slow category, but they have the advantage of the early levelling to boost their EV somewhat, where as Entei comes around halfway through and the other gerbils come much later. I assume with Breloom, since its in the Fluctuating category, it gets fast early levelling but slows down significantly later on, so that's another advantage for using it in XD.

EDIT: Got my first test run all the way to Evice. Save before the Not-so-Elite 4 was 5:32, and that who section takes around 15 minutes, so I think my initial estimate of 5h might be bang on. If I get the insane luck needed to get anywhere near that time of course.

Ein 1 especially has become a lot easier now that I'm not soloing him. The AI tends to focus on lower level Pokemon first, which makes Feraligatr relatively safe. Venus 1 was the most annoying battle because of - you guessed it - Attract. Her Vileplume got to a point where it would not die until you PP stalled it out of Giga Drain. Later on, Miror B 2 had the same flaw. So, I need to find a quick way to beat those battles especially. Venus's Vileplume shouldn't be too much of a threat if I keep Espeon alive for it, and as for Miror B 2, I still have either the X-Attack Earthquake strategy, or maybe even X-Special Blizzard (the latter allowing for some extra damage from Helping Hand/Umbreon Bite/Espeon Psybeam.

Once again, Umbreon does show its usefulness having a paralysis move, and learning Confuse Ray at L30, so it can doubly cripple a significant problem Pokemon if it gets lucky. Unfortunately, since it is barely getting any levels past the start of the game, it will be nigh on useless in the later battles, with the exception of acting as a Reviver for my Helping Hand users.

I'm not gonna go too crazy with nature abuse for this, but I would like to aim for a +SpA nature on Croconaw especially, maybe Rash as in the 100% run, Mild as a secondary option. Anything that lowers Attack will be no good, since Earthquake/Slash are very useful in many battles, and most of gatr's move options are special-based, so a -SpA is no good either. I'll probably aim for a minimum stat level as I did for the 100%. As for getting a female gatr, I don't like the odds of that for single-segment, and I do have some ways around that (anything that can Attract male gatr can also Attract the Eeveelutions, for example).

Using the gerbils might be an option. Entei comes early enough that he can get decent exp to keep up and still do a reasonable amount of damage, and even before purification he can do a nice number with 115 base Attack + Shadow Rush. Entei's bulk might help when taking damage too.

The main problem with the gerbils as I see it is that they fall under the Slow exp category. The Eeveelutions are also in Slow category, but they have the advantage of the early levelling to boost their EV somewhat, where as Entei comes around halfway through and the other gerbils come much later. I assume with Breloom, since its in the Fluctuating category, it gets fast early levelling but slows down significantly later on, so that's another advantage for using it in XD.

EDIT: Got my first test run all the way to Evice. Save before the Not-so-Elite 4 was 5:32, and that who section takes around 15 minutes, so I think my initial estimate of 5h might be bang on. If I get the insane luck needed to get anywhere near that time of course.

Ein 1 especially has become a lot easier now that I'm not soloing him. The AI tends to focus on lower level Pokemon first, which makes Feraligatr relatively safe. Venus 1 was the most annoying battle because of - you guessed it - Attract. Her Vileplume got to a point where it would not die until you PP stalled it out of Giga Drain. Later on, Miror B 2 had the same flaw. So, I need to find a quick way to beat those battles especially. Venus's Vileplume shouldn't be too much of a threat if I keep Espeon alive for it, and as for Miror B 2, I still have either the X-Attack Earthquake strategy, or maybe even X-Special Blizzard (the latter allowing for some extra damage from Helping Hand/Umbreon Bite/Espeon Psybeam.

Once again, Umbreon does show its usefulness having a paralysis move, and learning Confuse Ray at L30, so it can doubly cripple a significant problem Pokemon if it gets lucky. Unfortunately, since it is barely getting any levels past the start of the game, it will be nigh on useless in the later battles, with the exception of acting as a Reviver for my Helping Hand users.

I'm not gonna go too crazy with nature abuse for this, but I would like to aim for a +SpA nature on Croconaw especially, maybe Rash as in the 100% run, Mild as a secondary option. Anything that lowers Attack will be no good, since Earthquake/Slash are very useful in many battles, and most of gatr's move options are special-based, so a -SpA is no good either. I'll probably aim for a minimum stat level as I did for the 100%. As for getting a female gatr, I don't like the odds of that for single-segment, and I do have some ways around that (anything that can Attract male gatr can also Attract the Eeveelutions, for example).

Hariyama465

2011-01-16 03:08:38 pm

Yeah I think nature abuse is kind of unnecessary for a single segment run. Especially considering, even if you get a proper nature for both your guys, your overall time could very well be SLOWER than another attempt that had, say, neutral natures. Cause in the other attempt you had bad/better luck or whatnot.

For XD I accept Modest, Mild, or Rash for Eevee, since it barely ever gets hit (cause it's so fast and Breloom's mach punch). However, I only accept 18 sp atk on Eevee when you first get it, because that means its IVs are in the 24-31 range for SpA, which is A+ obviously. If Eevee in XD has 17 in Spatk, it means its anywhere from the 15-23 IV range, which--while not bad--is too wide a spread.

Heh, gerbils. That's what I'm calling them from now on. 5h seems pretty insane for this run, but if you can manage to get it with insane luck, more power to you. I had no idea the AI of that game tends to focus on the lower level pokemon.

Toothache

2011-01-17 03:14:34 pm

Let the music play!

Entei might make a suitable addition or replacement for Umbreon. It comes at L40, with more physical bulk than Umbreon, probably about the same special bulk, and much higher offences and Fire Blast. L41 he gains Stomp, which makes for a reasonably damaging normal move. He also comes with Leer, which has the potential to save some time on the more awkward fights (Miror B 2).

Its something I'll have a test with. Since gatr will be soloing Mt Battle, I won't be able to use the ball-dupe glitch, so I'll have to get lucky with the Pokeballs/Great Ball I have (there is a detour to get Ultra Balls in the Pyrite Caves, but if I can avoid doing that I'll save about a minute). The shops incidentally don't sell Ultra Balls until just before Entei is snaggable, so that option is out too. Entei is capture rate 3, which makes Ultra Balls the only real option if I want to snag it at all. I could wait until Realgem, get the Master Ball and snag it then, but it has lost most of its real usefulness by then.

Entei might make a suitable addition or replacement for Umbreon. It comes at L40, with more physical bulk than Umbreon, probably about the same special bulk, and much higher offences and Fire Blast. L41 he gains Stomp, which makes for a reasonably damaging normal move. He also comes with Leer, which has the potential to save some time on the more awkward fights (Miror B 2).

Its something I'll have a test with. Since gatr will be soloing Mt Battle, I won't be able to use the ball-dupe glitch, so I'll have to get lucky with the Pokeballs/Great Ball I have (there is a detour to get Ultra Balls in the Pyrite Caves, but if I can avoid doing that I'll save about a minute). The shops incidentally don't sell Ultra Balls until just before Entei is snaggable, so that option is out too. Entei is capture rate 3, which makes Ultra Balls the only real option if I want to snag it at all. I could wait until Realgem, get the Master Ball and snag it then, but it has lost most of its real usefulness by then.

Hariyama465

2011-01-17 04:56:11 pm

Umbreon has 95/110/130 defenses. Entei's defense and sp def don't even come close (85, 75 respectively), but it makes up for it by having 115 HP. My problem with Entei is that this is still gen 3, meaning those powerful fire moves are playing off a measly 90 sp atk as opposed to his awesome 115 attack--though Stomp could be nice.

100 Speed is definitely nice, though, and Umbreon lacks good speed as well as attacks of any kind, although i guess helping hand makes up for it, since Surf seems to demolish through everything anyway. Still something worth considering, though.

Stantler's hypnosis might be useful, but this is a single segment run so the low accuracy could end up hurting you more.

I agree with the problems on Entei, but Suicune and Raikou might be better replacements. Hell, you could use Raikou/Suicune combo. Both Raikou and Suicune have Rain Dance, which boosts Suicune's Surf and makes Raikou's Thunder 100%. Have Raikou set up Rain Dance and Suicune surfs, and the opponent won't even know what hit them.

Not sure if you get the Master Ball before Suicune or Raikou, so you have to test whether or not it's worth the effort. Though Suicune and Raikou might do a great job, the time it would take to go out of you way and get them, may not be better than just sticking to Helping Hand + Surf.

Still, it's worth a test.

Umbreon has 95/110/130 defenses. Entei's defense and sp def don't even come close (85, 75 respectively), but it makes up for it by having 115 HP. My problem with Entei is that this is still gen 3, meaning those powerful fire moves are playing off a measly 90 sp atk as opposed to his awesome 115 attack--though Stomp could be nice.

100 Speed is definitely nice, though, and Umbreon lacks good speed as well as attacks of any kind, although i guess helping hand makes up for it, since Surf seems to demolish through everything anyway. Still something worth considering, though.

Stantler's hypnosis might be useful, but this is a single segment run so the low accuracy could end up hurting you more.

I agree with the problems on Entei, but Suicune and Raikou might be better replacements. Hell, you could use Raikou/Suicune combo. Both Raikou and Suicune have Rain Dance, which boosts Suicune's Surf and makes Raikou's Thunder 100%. Have Raikou set up Rain Dance and Suicune surfs, and the opponent won't even know what hit them.

Not sure if you get the Master Ball before Suicune or Raikou, so you have to test whether or not it's worth the effort. Though Suicune and Raikou might do a great job, the time it would take to go out of you way and get them, may not be better than just sticking to Helping Hand + Surf.

Still, it's worth a test.

Toothache

2011-01-18 06:10:11 am

Let the music play!

I was pointing to the fact that Entei's defences are reasonably average, but it comes more than 10 levels higher than Umbreon (should be about L28 by the time you snag Entei at L40, which is essentially a 40% stat difference, so the stats are comparable).

As for Suicune, it certainly has stellar defences to make it worthwhile. Unfortunately, with the overlevelled Feraligatr often needing to KO a partner for more exp, this may work against a fast time, since even at L30 Umbreon was surviving an unboosted EQ from L55 gatr, and Suicune's going to have much better defences by the time it arrives.

Raikou is risky to capture, even more so than the other two Pokemon, simply for his higher offensive stats and having a supereffective attack on Feraligatr. Raikou also has the problem that its impossible to get a capture with Master Ball before the Deep Colosseum (since beating Ein 2 is the trigger which makes Eagun give you the MB). Bear in mind all of the gerbils have a catch rate of 3, which is pretty low odds.

Another issue which hasn't been addressed yet is the exp gain. For each gerbil you capture, you lose out on around 1000 exp. That might not sound a lot, but every bit of exp helps. Normally, you'd beat them each twice in the any% run.

A double Surf or Thunderdance might be faster in a few places, but in general gatr is high enough level to sweep most of the enemy Pokemon out there, except in the final few battles where the low level gerbils won't be too effective. Entei has a possibility of being useful in Evice though, since the Scizor is always a pain - its a bulky mon with high attack, a single weakness, and the potential to boost its stats either from X-Attack or Silver Wind. Entei should be able to survive anything Scizor can throw, but its going to be hard pushed to survive both of Evice's high powered attackers (unless I pick up a Protect TM in The Under for help in dealing with Slaking).

I was pointing to the fact that Entei's defences are reasonably average, but it comes more than 10 levels higher than Umbreon (should be about L28 by the time you snag Entei at L40, which is essentially a 40% stat difference, so the stats are comparable).

As for Suicune, it certainly has stellar defences to make it worthwhile. Unfortunately, with the overlevelled Feraligatr often needing to KO a partner for more exp, this may work against a fast time, since even at L30 Umbreon was surviving an unboosted EQ from L55 gatr, and Suicune's going to have much better defences by the time it arrives.

Raikou is risky to capture, even more so than the other two Pokemon, simply for his higher offensive stats and having a supereffective attack on Feraligatr. Raikou also has the problem that its impossible to get a capture with Master Ball before the Deep Colosseum (since beating Ein 2 is the trigger which makes Eagun give you the MB). Bear in mind all of the gerbils have a catch rate of 3, which is pretty low odds.

Another issue which hasn't been addressed yet is the exp gain. For each gerbil you capture, you lose out on around 1000 exp. That might not sound a lot, but every bit of exp helps. Normally, you'd beat them each twice in the any% run.

A double Surf or Thunderdance might be faster in a few places, but in general gatr is high enough level to sweep most of the enemy Pokemon out there, except in the final few battles where the low level gerbils won't be too effective. Entei has a possibility of being useful in Evice though, since the Scizor is always a pain - its a bulky mon with high attack, a single weakness, and the potential to boost its stats either from X-Attack or Silver Wind. Entei should be able to survive anything Scizor can throw, but its going to be  hard pushed to survive both of Evice's high powered attackers (unless I pick up a Protect TM in The Under for help in dealing with Slaking).

Hariyama465

2011-01-18 02:05:20 pm

Ah, I see. It's been forever since I played Colosseum, so I'm a bit shaky on these sort of details. I do know that Evice uses, what, Skill Swap to have a Slaking without Truant?

What a monster.

It kind of sucks that the gerbils are so hard to get, but Feraligatr is better than them anyway. I guess it helps that you get him right at the beginning, so you can get him all that EXP from the get-go. Scizor is undoubtedly going to be a pain. It's the number 2 Pokemon in all of competitive battling--and was number 1 for a while--for a reason. It's a monster. Thank God technician + bullet punch doesn't exist in Gen 3, because otherwise he'd be a pain to take down.

Snattle 2 uses a Scizor at the end in XD, Houndoom used to take him out no problem, but I replaced him with Breloom. Because of that, though, Gorigan 1 and 2 are no problem since ALL OF GORIGAN'S POKEMON are weak to Breloom/Espeon. Though, it will help that this is an any% run, because you're going to get more EXP. It may not sound like a big difference, but it is. Especially in XD, there are 83 Shadow Pokemon and I miss out on all that EXP because I have to catch them all.

The fact that you're doing any% and your Pokemon will be slightly more powerful will probably help reduce some of the luck factor. I've never single segmented a game, but if I did, I would play that game over and over again until single segmenting it was a recreational hobby. Only then would I feel I would have enough familiarity with the game to produce a really good single segment run. Thankfully, (at least for me, anyway) Colosseum and XD are sort of...fun to go through, because they're very linear and such.

Ah, I see. It's been forever since I played Colosseum, so I'm a bit shaky on these sort of details. I do know that Evice uses, what, Skill Swap to have a Slaking without Truant?

What a monster.

It kind of sucks that the gerbils are so hard to get, but Feraligatr is better than them anyway. I guess it helps that you get him right at the beginning, so you can get him all that EXP from the get-go. Scizor is undoubtedly going to be a pain. It's the number 2 Pokemon in all of competitive battling--and was number 1 for a while--for a reason. It's a monster. Thank God technician + bullet punch doesn't exist in Gen 3, because otherwise he'd be a pain to take down.

Snattle 2 uses a Scizor at the end in XD, Houndoom used to take him out no problem, but I replaced him with Breloom. Because of that, though, Gorigan 1 and 2 are no problem since ALL OF GORIGAN'S POKEMON are weak to Breloom/Espeon. Though, it will help that this is an any% run, because you're going to get more EXP. It may not sound like a big difference, but it is. Especially in XD, there are 83 Shadow Pokemon and I miss out on all that EXP because I have to catch them all.

The fact that you're doing any% and your Pokemon will be slightly more powerful will probably help reduce some of the luck factor. I've never single segmented a game, but if I did, I would play that game over and over again until single segmenting it was a recreational hobby. Only then would I feel I would have enough familiarity with the game to produce a really good single segment run. Thankfully, (at least for me, anyway) Colosseum and XD are sort of...fun to go through, because they're very linear and such.

Toothache

Edit history:

Toothache: 2011-01-20 12:35:21 pm

2011-01-20 12:33:21 pm

Let the music play!

Hm, with the low catch rate, it won't be practical to get any of the gerbils in single segment, I feel. Had some real horrid luck testing Entei earlier today, I don't fancy that after 2 hours of solid play to get to that point, getting a run ruined by such slim odds. Getting the Master Ball is a couple of minutes wasted easily, especially since you need to do Ein 2 in order to get him (forcing you to visit the colour-locked door twice). Focusing on gatr really is the way to go.

Let's see if I can conjure up a route plan:

Start - check nature on Espeon/Umbreon
first few trainers - get Super Potions in front of Mayor's House
visit shop - buy 2 X-Attack, 2 X-Speed, activate Outskirt Stand event
Outskirt Stand - get Pokeballs, sell Ice Heal, Awakening, buy Great Ball, buy 11x Super Potions
Shadow Makuhita fight
Croconaw snag - use ball dupe on Great Ball, check stats

Pyrite arrive
Visit Duking, enter Colosseum and heal, activate Cail battle
Shadow Furret fight
Retrieve cog for colosseum
Pyrite Colosseum - attempt to purify Croconaw as much as possible
Shadow Yanma fight
Series of battles up to Shadow Remoraid/Shadow Mantine - collect Revive
Put Umbreon in for Espeon, attempt to get Croconaw in Hyper Mode
Espeon back in after Mantine fight
Shadow Qwilfish - get Croconaw out of Hyper Mode
Collect Hyper Potions and Ethers
Shadow Meditite
Shadow Dunsparce
Get Croconaw in Hyper Mode for Miror B - ignore vitamins
Miror B 1
Plusle get!

Agate arrive
Collect Exp Share, buy more Super Potions
Berry Master
Battles up to Shadow Hitmontop
Shadow Hitmontop
Purify and evolve Feraligatr (L37)

Mt Battle arrive, Feraligatr solo segment
Dakim 1

Agate arrive, visit Eagun
Berry Master
Shadow Pokemon Lab visit - collect Revives
Pyrite return, visit Jail, get Elevator Key, save
Spend up almost everything on potions, save 5,500

The Under arrive
Buy TM 14, learn Blizzard, equip Exp Share
Shadow Ledian fight + second fight, deathwarp to bypass battles (saving at Pyrite Jail warps you there)
Collect R-Disk, 3 Rare Candy
Venus 1 fight

Open door, staircase series of Shadow Battles (Gligar, Stantler, Piloswine, Sneasel)
Get Maingate Key

Shadow Pokemon Lab arrive
ideally first battle in Torrent range, Voltorbs are 2HKOs otherwise
collect Card Key, PP Ups (use 2 on Surf, 1 on Blizzard)
battle to get Down St Key, collect DNA Samples as you progress
Shadow Battles with Murkrow, Forretress, Ariados, Granbull
use DNA Analyser to get code
Shadow Vibrava
use DNA code
Shadow Hitmontop 2
use rare candies either before or after Skrub to get to as high level as practical
Ein 1
get TM 26 and Data Disc, learn Earthquake

The Under return, give Data Disc to Nett

Realgem arrive
Dakim 2
Miror B 2
Shadow Delibird and Sunflora fights
Venus 2
Ein 2
Shadow Heracross
Fake Out battle
Gonzap
Not-so-elite 4, Nascour, Evice
game end

I'm gonna test how practical it is to randomly guess the code for the Lab, if I can get away with not using the DNA Analyser again I can certainly save a good minute or so there. If I can deactivate a choice, it should be feasible to get a pretty quick method without wasting too much time, will be certainly faster than doing it the normal way.

Hm, with the low catch rate, it won't be practical to get any of the gerbils in single segment, I feel. Had some real horrid luck testing Entei earlier today, I don't fancy that after 2 hours of solid play to get to that point, getting a run ruined by such slim odds. Getting the Master Ball is a couple of minutes wasted easily, especially since you need to do Ein 2 in order to get him (forcing you to visit the colour-locked door twice). Focusing on gatr really is the way to go.

Let's see if I can conjure up a route plan:

Start - check nature on Espeon/Umbreon
first few trainers - get Super Potions in front of Mayor's House
visit shop - buy 2 X-Attack, 2 X-Speed, activate Outskirt Stand event
Outskirt Stand - get Pokeballs, sell Ice Heal, Awakening, buy Great Ball, buy 11x Super Potions
Shadow Makuhita fight
Croconaw snag - use ball dupe on Great Ball, check stats

Pyrite arrive
Visit Duking, enter Colosseum and heal, activate Cail battle
Shadow Furret fight
Retrieve cog for colosseum
Pyrite Colosseum - attempt to purify Croconaw as much as possible
Shadow Yanma fight
Series of battles up to Shadow Remoraid/Shadow Mantine - collect Revive
Put Umbreon in for Espeon, attempt to get Croconaw in Hyper Mode
Espeon back in after Mantine fight
Shadow Qwilfish - get Croconaw out of Hyper Mode
Collect Hyper Potions and Ethers
Shadow Meditite
Shadow Dunsparce
Get Croconaw in Hyper Mode for Miror B - ignore vitamins
Miror B 1
Plusle get!

Agate arrive
Collect Exp Share, buy more Super Potions
Berry Master
Battles up to Shadow Hitmontop
Shadow Hitmontop
Purify and evolve Feraligatr (L37)

Mt Battle arrive, Feraligatr solo segment
Dakim 1

Agate arrive, visit Eagun
Berry Master
Shadow Pokemon Lab visit - collect Revives
Pyrite return, visit Jail, get Elevator Key, save
Spend up almost everything on potions, save 5,500

The Under arrive
Buy TM 14, learn Blizzard, equip Exp Share
Shadow Ledian fight + second fight, deathwarp to bypass battles (saving at Pyrite Jail warps you there)
Collect R-Disk, 3 Rare Candy
Venus 1 fight

Open door, staircase series of Shadow Battles (Gligar, Stantler, Piloswine, Sneasel)
Get Maingate Key

Shadow Pokemon Lab arrive
ideally first battle in Torrent range, Voltorbs are 2HKOs otherwise
collect Card Key, PP Ups (use 2 on Surf, 1 on Blizzard)
battle to get Down St Key, collect DNA Samples as you progress
Shadow Battles with Murkrow, Forretress, Ariados, Granbull
use DNA Analyser to get code
Shadow Vibrava
use DNA code
Shadow Hitmontop 2 
use rare candies either before or after Skrub to get to as high level as practical
Ein 1
get TM 26 and Data Disc, learn Earthquake

The Under return, give Data Disc to Nett

Realgem arrive
Dakim 2
Miror B 2
Shadow Delibird and Sunflora fights
Venus 2
Ein 2
Shadow Heracross
Fake Out battle
Gonzap
Not-so-elite 4, Nascour, Evice
game end

I'm gonna test how practical it is to randomly guess the code for the Lab, if I can get away with not using the DNA Analyser again I can certainly save a good minute or so there. If I can deactivate a choice, it should be feasible to get a pretty quick method without wasting too much time, will be certainly faster than doing it the normal way.

petrie911

2011-01-23 06:50:26 am

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

So, IIRC, the different methods of purification have are more or less effective based on the Pokemon's nature. Do we know which nature makes what more or less effective?

Toothache

2011-01-23 10:04:51 am

Let the music play!

Yes, unfortunately the optimal natures - Mild and Rash - get the most benefit out of Colognes, and by the time I can even get the Cologne Case gatr will be more than ready to be purified.

Hariyama465

2011-01-23 11:27:14 am

Where did you find this information out? I think I remember seeing some table somewhere, but I lost track of it. Do you know how Adamant, Lonely, and Naughty natures are effected?

I'm sure they should be the same for both Colosseum and XD.