Ocarina of Time - All Categories[N64]

2008-10-29 01:30:50 pm

Ya considering you have to go out of your way to get the broken gorons sword to RBA medallions, really it would be the same as using the GS glitch to get skultulas only to go back and get them again legitly.

mikwuyma

2008-10-29 01:36:14 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Okay let me ask a different question, what exactly would be skipped if I didn't discriminate BA from a non-major skips run.

MrGrunz

2008-10-29 01:59:02 pm

Merry Chrismas =)

the water temple boss key for example.
with a BA trick we can manipulate the dungeon items, so we can get the boss keys without getting them.

here's the video about it:

I personally don't want to see BA in the no major skip run, but I don't know, what all the other people think about it

Cosmo.

2008-10-29 02:52:53 pm

This statue's one-eyed gaze pierces into your mind

Quote from mikwuyma:

Okay let me ask a different question, what exactly would be skipped if I didn't discriminate BA from a non-major skips run.

the water temple boss key would probably be skipped, making the water temple around 3 minutes long total. the boss would still be defeated and medallion got legitimately.

however in order to do that, as young link the player would need to go to the gerudo training grounds and get the ice arrows, then later visit the fishing pond to get the bottle on B.

that's the only real skip BA would allow, assuming you collect all stones / medallions the legit way
(walk into dungeon, kill the boss, go through the blue warp, recieve medallion/stone)

BA can also be used for simple things like refilling deku nuts or bombchus, though it probably won't be worth the time it takes for things like that

groobo

2008-10-29 03:16:40 pm

boss

In short: just a few time savers, nothing big, plus you have to REALLY get out of your way in order to get the right items for the glitch.

Mp16

2008-10-29 04:39:50 pm

What is everyone's opinions on using RBA/BA in a 100% run? I'm pretty sure SDA allows it as long as all items required for a 100% run are collected legitamitely. Obviously it could save time in the Water Temple and probably other temples as well. I'm neutral about it, I'd just like to see what everyone else's opinion of it is.

On another note, here's segment 20:

Satoryu

2008-10-29 04:55:20 pm

Visually Appealing

Quote from Mp16:

I'm pretty sure SDA allows it as long as all items required for a 100% run are collected legitamitely.

this is what i believe. as long as everything important is gotten the legit way, BA should be fair game both in 100% and NMS.

Guest

2008-10-29 05:29:59 pm

I think there are good arguments against allowing bottle adventure but the main one I would say is that it removes some of the skill involved in doing the run. I don't want to offend anyone that likes BA but in my mind it is almost like an in game cheat code but I think there is validity in doing a run like Kazooie's current run but I would like to think it is in a separate category than other runs currently on the site. I would also say it is a major skip if you can skip a whole dungeon by generating the boss key and I think that should invalidate arguments that it can be used if you get the items legitimately anyway because no one would use BA then go and collect the boss key.

This discussion has probably been done to death but I feel there should be 5 categories 100%, NMS, MS, BA and LOW% as they all have distinct routes with different objectives before heading to Ganon's Castle. (out of those categories I could only really see the no major skips run being viable for single and segmented runs)

Feel free to argue against this, it is only one guys opinion.

I think there are good arguments against allowing bottle adventure but the main one I would say is that it removes some of the skill involved in doing the run.  I don't want to offend anyone that likes BA but in my mind it is almost like an in game cheat code but I think [b]there is validity in doing a run like Kazooie's current run[/b] but I would like to think it is in a separate category than other runs currently on the site.  I would also say it is a major skip if you can skip a whole dungeon by generating the boss key and I think that should invalidate arguments that it can be used if you get the items legitimately anyway because no one would use BA then go and collect the boss key.

This discussion has probably been done to death but I feel there should be 5 categories 100%, NMS, MS, BA and LOW% as they all have distinct routes with different objectives before heading to Ganon's Castle.  (out of those categories I could only really see the no major skips run being viable for single and segmented runs)

Feel free to argue against this, it is only one guys opinion.

chaosv1

2008-10-29 06:31:29 pm

I really believe BA rules should be taken out of run requirements because it adds too much ambiguity. I think someone said this last time we had this disscussion but there should be better definitions of what a run needs.
Such as for 100%.... have these items in your inventory at the end of the game no matter how you got them.
Or for NMS.... have all beat all 3 child dungeon bosses, 6 adult dungeon bosses, and 6 trials.

Thats just my opinion though

mikwuyma

2008-10-29 07:52:33 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

okay it sounds like BA shouldn't be counted as a separate category.

Satoryu

2008-10-29 07:59:40 pm

Visually Appealing

does skipping the trials count as a major skip? i don't think they should. there's aren't kept track of on the pause menu, and the only reward they give is lowering a barrier. skipping the barrier uses a similar trick as Shadow Early, and Shadow Early isn't a major skip.

UchihaSasuke

2008-10-29 08:42:24 pm

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

one thing i'm wondering...

who's going to do the no major skips run? are people interested in that kind of run at this point? i'd rather watch a 100% run than a nms run since it is full of forced stuff that can be skipped. BA/RBA breaks the game too extremely and we should cope with it and instead focus in the fastest no-temple runs imo.

imo, BA/RBA shouldn't be used in a 100% but if the rule makers see it fine as long as every item is gotten the regular way, it's okay to use it.

Toes

2008-10-29 09:18:29 pm

Quote from Satoryu:

does skipping the trials count as a major skip? i don't think they should. there's aren't kept track of on the pause menu, and the only reward they give is lowering a barrier. skipping the barrier uses a similar trick as Shadow Early, and Shadow Early isn't a major skip.

Ganon's trials in my opinion should be required for a NMS run.
If you count them all together then you could count them as a whole nother dungeon. I'm sure it would take longer to finish the trials than it would to finish some of the temples and dungeons in this game.
I like to think of the barrier as the kokiri guy.
You beat the deku tree or you skip it. No other way to get past the little guy.
Same thing applies with the barrier. You beat the trials or you skip the barrier.

Cosmo.

2008-10-29 10:01:15 pm

This statue's one-eyed gaze pierces into your mind

Quote from UchihaSasuke:

one thing i'm wondering...

who's going to do the no major skips run? are people interested in that kind of run at this point? i'd rather watch a 100% run than a nms run since it is full of forced stuff that can be skipped. BA/RBA breaks the game too extremely and we should cope with it and instead focus in the fastest no-temple runs imo.

imo, BA/RBA shouldn't be used in a 100% but if the rule makers see it fine as long as every item is gotten the regular way, it's okay to use it.

I think a ton of people would watch NMS. you've got 100% for the full game and all the sidequests, any% for a no-dungeon rape run, and NMS for the middle ground - beat all the dungeons.

i also agree with everything chaosv1 has said. you don't even need to mention BA in the rules for the categories -- just name what you need to accomplish.

ZAR

2008-10-29 11:17:05 pm

Eeeeyah!

One thing that really doesn't make sense about a nms run is that you have to do the trials in that run, but in a 100% run you skip them. I really don't see the point of doing the trials in a nms run if you don't do them in a 100% run which is where you're required to do every dungeon, collect every item etc. Why should a nms run have to do them then?

Runnerguy2489

2008-10-30 06:34:30 am

I'm not your buddy, guay!

Quote from Toesrus:

Ganon's trials in my opinion should be required for a NMS run.
If you count them all together then you could count them as a whole nother dungeon. I'm sure it would take longer to finish the trials than it would to finish some of the temples and dungeons in this game.
I like to think of the barrier as the kokiri guy.
You beat the deku tree or you skip it. No other way to get past the little guy.
Same thing applies with the barrier. You beat the trials or you skip the barrier.

If you count it as another dungeon: Beating this 'dungeon' is like beating Ganondorf and Ganon. I don't see a difference between supersliding up to the mirror shield and skipping the first part of Spirit temple. Both skip the first part of the dungeon, but both complete it in the end anyway.

If it's like the kokiri guy, skipping him doesn't automatically make your run MS. According to what it seems most people want, you could even go back and do the Deku tree as an adult if it were faster, and as long as you beat every dungeon it would be NMS.

It does seem odd that skipping the trials in 100% is okay but not in NMS. If they aren't important enough to be a % of the game, how are they then a major part of the game?

[quote="Toesrus"]
Ganon's trials in my opinion should be required for a NMS run.
If you count them all together then you could count them as a whole nother dungeon. I'm sure it would take longer to finish the trials than it would to finish some of the temples and dungeons in this game.
I like to think of the barrier as the kokiri guy.
You beat the deku tree or you skip it. No other way to get past the little guy.
Same thing applies with the barrier. You beat the trials or you skip the barrier.
[/quote]
If you count it as another dungeon: Beating this 'dungeon' is like beating Ganondorf and Ganon. I don't see a difference between supersliding up to the mirror shield and skipping the first part of Spirit temple. Both skip the first part of the dungeon, but both complete it in the end anyway.

If it's like the kokiri guy, skipping him doesn't automatically make your run MS. According to what it seems most people want, you could even go back and do the Deku tree as an adult if it were faster, and as long as you beat every dungeon it would be NMS.

It does seem odd that skipping the trials in 100% is okay but not in NMS. If they aren't important enough to be a % of the game, how are they then a major part of the game?

Kryal

2008-10-30 08:18:57 am

from red to blue

100%:
-Max Item Upgrades
-All Medalions
-All Side-Quests
-All Ocarina Songs
-Trials skipped, but MUST get the Golden Gauntlets and therefore Fairy (IIRC).

NMS:
-No skipping portions of the game that would include not doing the game as intended (using glitches to make it go faster is OK).

This may not be a full or correct definition, but it should sort it out.

chaosv1

2008-10-30 02:05:48 pm

[opinion]The trials arent a % of the game, but they are still there. In a 100% you are more concerned with getting all items/upgrades/etc than completing everything game the makers intended. However in a NMS you are concerned with that. Therefore if there is a dungeon, or other major obstacle to pass in the game then it should be done.[/opinion]

ZAR

Edit history:

ZAR: 2008-10-30 03:29:39 pm

2008-10-30 03:12:11 pm

Eeeeyah!

I consider Ganon's Castle as a whole a complete temple (Trials, Tower, Ganondorf, descend Tower, and Ganon) the trials are just part of the temple, if you skip them it really doesn't matter as long as you defeat the boss. To me skipping them is like skipping any other part of a dungeon/temple.

Mp16

2008-10-30 03:58:35 pm

Quote from chaosv1:

[opinion]The trials arent a % of the game, but they are still there. In a 100% you are more concerned with getting all items/upgrades/etc than completing everything game the makers intended. However in a NMS you are concerned with that. Therefore if there is a dungeon, or other major obstacle to pass in the game then it should be done.[/opinion]

If that's the case, then the Lens of Truth shouldn't be skipped. The Well is a dungeon after all, with a map, mini-boss, and treasure. Crossing the Wasteland as a kid is considered a glitch after all.

On another note, I will use RBA/BA in my run if it can actually save time as long as SDA is okay with it and won't make my run a separate category.

But I found a prediciment so to speak with this. What if I BA'd a Check Claim or some other item in the Biggoron Sword adventure (if that's even possible) then got the Biggoron's sword? That doesn't break any rules and in the end your inventory would look the same while everything was collected legitamitely. After all not every item in the game is collected as long as the end product is collected. Examples: Giant's Knife, Gerudo Mask, Zora Mask, Goron Mask, Damage Boostin', Silver Scale.

[quote="chaosv1"]
[opinion]The trials arent a % of the game, but they are still there. In a 100% you are more concerned with getting all items/upgrades/etc than completing everything game the makers intended. However in a NMS you are concerned with that. Therefore if there is a dungeon, or other major obstacle to pass in the game then it should be done.[/opinion]
[/quote]

If that's the case, then the Lens of Truth shouldn't be skipped. The Well is a dungeon after all, with a map, mini-boss, and treasure. Crossing the Wasteland as a kid is considered a glitch after all.

On another note, I will use RBA/BA in my run if it can actually save time as long as SDA is okay with it and won't make my run a separate category.

But I found a prediciment so to speak with this. What if I BA'd a Check Claim or some other item in the Biggoron Sword adventure (if that's even possible) then got the Biggoron's sword? That doesn't break any rules and in the end your inventory would look the same while everything was collected legitamitely. After all not every item in the game is collected as long as the end product is collected. Examples: Giant's Knife, Gerudo Mask, Zora Mask, Goron Mask, Damage Boostin', Silver Scale.

Toes

2008-10-30 04:13:47 pm

Quote from Mp16:

Quote from chaosv1:

[opinion]The trials arent a % of the game, but they are still there. In a 100% you are more concerned with getting all items/upgrades/etc than completing everything game the makers intended. However in a NMS you are concerned with that. Therefore if there is a dungeon, or other major obstacle to pass in the game then it should be done.[/opinion]

If that's the case, then the Lens of Truth shouldn't be skipped. The Well is a dungeon after all, with a map, mini-boss, and treasure. Crossing the Wasteland as a kid is considered a glitch after all.

On another note, I will use RBA/BA in my run if it can actually save time as long as SDA is okay with it and won't make my run a separate category.

But I found a prediciment so to speak with this. What if I BA'd a Check Claim or some other item in the Biggoron Sword adventure (if that's even possible) then got the Biggoron's sword? That doesn't break any rules and in the end your inventory would look the same while everything was collected legitamitely. After all not every item in the game is collected as long as the end product is collected. Examples: Giant's Knife, Gerudo Mask, Zora Mask, Goron Mask, Damage Boostin', Silver Scale.

I wonder if anyone has tested this.
If you had 50 deku seeds and did BA with a big poe(I think it's the big poe) you could get the poacher's saw on B. I wonder if you could show it to the carpenter guy and get the broken goron's sword.
Then if that worked you could get the claim check and RBA it for Forest Temple items.
It would require some weird route planning, though. It'd be awesome if it worked.

[quote="Mp16"]
[quote="chaosv1"]
[opinion]The trials arent a % of the game, but they are still there. In a 100% you are more concerned with getting all items/upgrades/etc than completing everything game the makers intended. However in a NMS you are concerned with that. Therefore if there is a dungeon, or other major obstacle to pass in the game then it should be done.[/opinion]
[/quote]

If that's the case, then the Lens of Truth shouldn't be skipped. The Well is a dungeon after all, with a map, mini-boss, and treasure. Crossing the Wasteland as a kid is considered a glitch after all.

On another note, I will use RBA/BA in my run if it can actually save time as long as SDA is okay with it and won't make my run a separate category.

But I found a prediciment so to speak with this. What if I BA'd a Check Claim or some other item in the Biggoron Sword adventure (if that's even possible) then got the Biggoron's sword? That doesn't break any rules and in the end your inventory would look the same while everything was collected legitamitely. After all not every item in the game is collected as long as the end product is collected. Examples: Giant's Knife, Gerudo Mask, Zora Mask, Goron Mask, Damage Boostin', Silver Scale.
[/quote]

I wonder if anyone has tested this.
If you had 50 deku seeds and did BA with a big poe(I think it's the big poe) you could get the poacher's saw on B. I wonder if you could show it to the carpenter guy and get the broken goron's sword.
Then if that worked you could get the claim check and RBA it for Forest Temple items.
It would require some weird route planning, though. It'd be awesome if it worked.

ZFG

2008-10-30 05:02:06 pm

MrGrunz is a guay

Quote from Toesrus:

Quote from Mp16:

Quote from chaosv1:

[opinion]The trials arent a % of the game, but they are still there. In a 100% you are more concerned with getting all items/upgrades/etc than completing everything game the makers intended. However in a NMS you are concerned with that. Therefore if there is a dungeon, or other major obstacle to pass in the game then it should be done.[/opinion]

If that's the case, then the Lens of Truth shouldn't be skipped. The Well is a dungeon after all, with a map, mini-boss, and treasure. Crossing the Wasteland as a kid is considered a glitch after all.

On another note, I will use RBA/BA in my run if it can actually save time as long as SDA is okay with it and won't make my run a separate category.

But I found a prediciment so to speak with this. What if I BA'd a Check Claim or some other item in the Biggoron Sword adventure (if that's even possible) then got the Biggoron's sword? That doesn't break any rules and in the end your inventory would look the same while everything was collected legitamitely. After all not every item in the game is collected as long as the end product is collected. Examples: Giant's Knife, Gerudo Mask, Zora Mask, Goron Mask, Damage Boostin', Silver Scale.

I wonder if anyone has tested this.
If you had 50 deku seeds and did BA with a big poe(I think it's the big poe) you could get the poacher's saw on B. I wonder if you could show it to the carpenter guy and get the broken goron's sword.
Then if that worked you could get the claim check and RBA it for Forest Temple items.
It would require some weird route planning, though. It'd be awesome if it worked.

I tried that a long time ago and yes, it does work (exept you need 50 chus and a poe). You can give the B poachers saw to the carpenter and the broken sword will go into your inventory (so the saw stays on B but you can just re equip your sword). Although I seem to remember some complication with it that I can't remember right now. It might just be me though, my head has been a little crazy today.

On the subject of NMS and BA in other categories, heres my 2 cents: NMS should be allowed BA, although I doubt it would save time. NMS should include Ganons trials for the same reason chaosv1 stated. BA should be allowed in 100/low %, but only as seperate categories.

[quote="Toesrus"]
[quote="Mp16"]
[quote="chaosv1"]
[opinion]The trials arent a % of the game, but they are still there. In a 100% you are more concerned with getting all items/upgrades/etc than completing everything game the makers intended. However in a NMS you are concerned with that. Therefore if there is a dungeon, or other major obstacle to pass in the game then it should be done.[/opinion]
[/quote]

If that's the case, then the Lens of Truth shouldn't be skipped. The Well is a dungeon after all, with a map, mini-boss, and treasure. Crossing the Wasteland as a kid is considered a glitch after all.

On another note, I will use RBA/BA in my run if it can actually save time as long as SDA is okay with it and won't make my run a separate category.

But I found a prediciment so to speak with this. What if I BA'd a Check Claim or some other item in the Biggoron Sword adventure (if that's even possible) then got the Biggoron's sword? That doesn't break any rules and in the end your inventory would look the same while everything was collected legitamitely. After all not every item in the game is collected as long as the end product is collected. Examples: Giant's Knife, Gerudo Mask, Zora Mask, Goron Mask, Damage Boostin', Silver Scale.
[/quote]

I wonder if anyone has tested this.
If you had 50 deku seeds and did BA with a big poe(I think it's the big poe) you could get the poacher's saw on B. I wonder if you could show it to the carpenter guy and get the broken goron's sword.
Then if that worked you could get the claim check and RBA it for Forest Temple items.
It would require some weird route planning, though. It'd be awesome if it worked.
[/quote]I tried that a long time ago and yes, it does work (exept you need 50 chus and a poe).  You can give the B poachers saw to the carpenter and the broken sword will go into your inventory (so the saw stays on B but you can just re equip your sword).  Although I seem to remember some complication with it that I can't remember right now.  It might just be me though, my head has been a little crazy today.

On the subject of NMS and BA in other categories, heres my 2 cents:  NMS should be allowed BA, although I doubt it would save time.  NMS should include Ganons trials for the same reason chaosv1 stated.  BA should be allowed in 100/low %, but only as seperate categories.

Mp16

2008-10-30 05:33:51 pm

Quote from ZFG:

I tried that a long time ago and yes, it does work (exept you need 50 chus and a poe). You can give the B poachers saw to the carpenter and the broken sword will go into your inventory (so the saw stays on B but you can just re equip your sword). Although I seem to remember some complication with it that I can't remember right now. It might just be me though, my head has been a little crazy today.

On the subject of NMS and BA in other categories, heres my 2 cents: NMS should be allowed BA, although I doubt it would save time. NMS should include Ganons trials for the same reason chaosv1 stated. BA should be allowed in 100/low %, but only as seperate categories.

50 chus is definitely possible as they're purchasable from the Bombchu Market and the extra bombchus could even be useful for later on such as with the Spirit Temple OoB to boss room or even Fire Temple OoB to boss room. I don't remember BA messing up your inventory as opposed to RBA which I realized wouldn't even be useful because there's a GS right next to the Boss Key and I can't think of any other advatages to RBA.

Does BA come with inventory mess-ups like RBA? I don't remember there being any, but I could be wrong.

[quote="ZFG"]
I tried that a long time ago and yes, it does work (exept you need 50 chus and a poe).  You can give the B poachers saw to the carpenter and the broken sword will go into your inventory (so the saw stays on B but you can just re equip your sword).  Although I seem to remember some complication with it that I can't remember right now.  It might just be me though, my head has been a little crazy today.

On the subject of NMS and BA in other categories, heres my 2 cents:  NMS should be allowed BA, although I doubt it would save time.  NMS should include Ganons trials for the same reason chaosv1 stated.  BA should be allowed in 100/low %, but only as seperate categories.
[/quote]

50 chus is definitely possible as they're purchasable from the Bombchu Market and the extra bombchus could even be useful for later on such as with the Spirit Temple OoB to boss room or even Fire Temple OoB to boss room. I don't remember BA messing up your inventory as opposed to RBA which I realized wouldn't even be useful because there's a GS right next to the Boss Key and I can't think of any other advatages to RBA.

Does BA come with inventory mess-ups like RBA? I don't remember there being any, but I could be wrong.

Cosmo.

2008-10-30 05:51:31 pm

This statue's one-eyed gaze pierces into your mind

Quote from ZFG:

I tried that a long time ago and yes, it does work (exept you need 50 chus and a poe). You can give the B poachers saw to the carpenter and the broken sword will go into your inventory (so the saw stays on B but you can just re equip your sword). Although I seem to remember some complication with it that I can't remember right now. It might just be me though, my head has been a little crazy today.

I tried it too awhile ago, it does exactly as you said. I also, with an emulator, showed the carpenter every item in the game in case somehow one of them accidently gives you the broken sword early haha. no avail

BA only changes your B button, but to change the B button from deku stick to bottle in the first place, you do RBA once. what I do is put a bottled fish on c-right so that it edits my deku nut amount, and doesn't mess anything else up.

also if you save without sword on B, the master sword goes away when you reload. but it will come back next time you save/quit (in every version except 1.0)

[quote="ZFG"]I tried that a long time ago and yes, it does work (exept you need 50 chus and a poe).  You can give the B poachers saw to the carpenter and the broken sword will go into your inventory (so the saw stays on B but you can just re equip your sword).  Although I seem to remember some complication with it that I can't remember right now.  It might just be me though, my head has been a little crazy today.[/quote]

I tried it too awhile ago, it does exactly as you said. I also, with an emulator, showed the carpenter every item in the game in case somehow one of them accidently gives you the broken sword early haha. no avail

BA only changes your B button, but to change the B button from deku stick to bottle in the first place, you do RBA once. what I do is put a bottled fish on c-right so that it edits my deku nut amount, and doesn't mess anything else up.

also if you save without sword on B, the master sword goes away when you reload. but it will come back next time you save/quit (in every version except 1.0)

ZFG

2008-10-30 05:54:03 pm

MrGrunz is a guay

No, regular BA has no effect on your inventory.