Ocarina of Time - All Categories[N64]

Paraxade

2008-07-09 10:35:11 pm

Speaking of the trials, now that OoB is allowed why is the trials skip still a separate category?

Cs1987

2008-07-09 10:41:27 pm

Some guy

Fire arrows take a little less time to get than Din's Fire. Considering the amount of time Din's Fire saves us, it would be interesting to work out which is faster. I'm really not sure.

Also, since the trials skip was allowed before OoB was allowed, the OoB ruling doesn't change the rules. I'd much prefer it if the NMS runs still included the trials. Seeing Kazooie get through all six trials so quickly was awesome.

ZAR

2008-07-09 10:43:30 pm

Eeeeyah!

I did find a way to skip the first web in the Deku Tree using the ladder in the first room to hookshot onto. What you do is hookshot at the top of ladder, make sure your close enough that you don't have to push Link forward for him to grab onto the ledge of ladder, if you do the trick won't work. Link should be inside of the ledge, then press A to make Link fall and jumpslash. You should land into an unloaded basement part of the Deku Tree. Then hookshot up onto the vines so that the trigger for the loading zone starts for the basement. (You can use this same trick to get under the ice in Zora's Domain and in a unloaded room in Dodongo's Cavern.)

As for the second web I've been trying to use a torch to Hookshot clip down into the 3-2-1 room, but I havn't gotten it to work yet.

Deku Tree and Dodongo's Cavern are alot faster as Adult Link too. Deku Tree would be done right after the Forest Temple is completed, and Dodongo's Cavern would be done right after turning Adult Link.

Paraxade

2008-07-09 10:52:57 pm

Quote from Cs1987:

Also, since the trials skip was allowed before OoB was allowed, the OoB ruling doesn't change the rules. I'd much prefer it if the NMS runs still included the trials. Seeing Kazooie get through all six trials so quickly was awesome.

I mean that it was originally made a separate category because it was borderline OoB. It makes more sense to merge it with the OoB category than to keep singling it out as its own category.

UchihaSasuke

2008-07-10 12:16:24 am

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

i agree with paraxade on that one.

the trials skip was almost an OoB. now it can be put with it.

no major skips shouldn't use OoB or RBA tricks. it shouldn't use the DoT skip either since that's almost OoB since you are in the void for a fraction of a second and that's enough for OoB.

Runnerguy2489

2008-07-10 12:23:02 am

I'm not your buddy, guay!

If Trials skip remains major skip category, then I don't see how DoT Skip isn't one. Not getting the Ocarina of Time, the item the game is named for, that seems major to me. Tongue

So I agree with Paraxade and UchihaSasuke that the Trials skip shouldn't be a major skip, especially since it can be done with bomb staircase and a superslide with hover boots. Ranking it with skipping 3 medallions or a BA run seems odd.

Cs1987

2008-07-10 12:41:15 am

Some guy

I think we need to contact the moderators on this one. Of course, the main thing we want to avoid is having too many categories. I'm happy with the current categories, except that they need to be defined more clearly in terms of RBA and OoB.

Thomaz

2008-07-10 02:41:32 am

Catchin' them all

Yeah yeah, I know, there's no reason to do it this way, because having to get multiple sticks kind of sucks. ;(

MrSparkle

2008-07-10 08:27:19 am

Doin Good

Why should OoB be a major skips category? I believe the trials skip should no longer be classified as MSC, regardless of how it's done. It skips a lot of the final dungeon, but what is so major about that? Ground jumping in DC and Skulltulwalla hovering in the Deku Tree are just as major. Also, why classify the trials skip as OoB at all, it is all bounded gameplay...

Also, why shouldn't the DoT skip be allowed in a NMS run, as long as you go back for the stones? Who cares if you skip getting the Ocarina. It's no different than doing Shadow temple early then collecting the first 3 medallions...

Actually I can't remember if Kazooie ever used the Song of Time in the SS. If he did, can it's use be skipped?

peteyboo

2008-07-10 11:25:13 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Well, IIRC, you can still do the DoT skip even if you get the OoT. You're not FORCED to play the SoT, and doing the DoT skip saves time over the SoT cutscene, right?

Of course, that would be unbalanced by the OoT cutscene, but wouldn't you need the Song of Time for the blue blocks in the Water Temple to get the Boss Key? Or am I thinking of something else?

Prognosis_4

(user is banned)

2008-07-10 12:16:56 pm

Quote from KlydeStorm:

Obviously if it's SS, we would need to play the song to move the block, otherwise we'd need the hover boots to get out.

Are you sure you have to save-warp out of the temple?

UchihaSasuke

2008-07-10 12:57:45 pm

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

think about it for a minute

skipping the DoT and then getting the stones is like doing all the tricks needed to skip the grapple beam in metroid prime and then collecting the grapple beam.
what's the point of the tricks if you get the item anyway?

also, there's the any% category for all the OoB, RBA, bomb hovers, DoT skip and stuff. if you want to use the tricks, use them together.

imo, if there's going to be a fast category of OoT that doesn't do major skips, all those big tricks should be out of it. it would be like having double standards. the run would even be more confusing because people would be like "why he skips that but not this?". the only bad thing is that not doing those tricks for a no major skips run would give us a 4+ hour run like TSA's old run (sub 4 possibly with regular speed tricks and segmented)

in the end, the game itself is the biggest problem since it is so broken that it puts us in this situation. it's really hard to write clear rules about what to skipa nd what to not, etc.

think about it for a minute

skipping the DoT and then getting the stones is like doing all the tricks needed to skip the grapple beam in metroid prime and then collecting the grapple beam.
what's the point of the tricks if you get the item anyway?

also, there's the any% category for all the OoB, RBA, bomb hovers, DoT skip and stuff. if you want to use the tricks, use them together.

imo, if there's going to be a fast category of OoT that doesn't do major skips, all those big tricks should be out of it.  it would be like having double standards. the run would even be more confusing because people would be like "why he skips that but not this?".  the only bad thing is that not doing those tricks for a no major skips run would give us a 4+ hour run like TSA's old run (sub 4 possibly with regular speed tricks and segmented)

in the end, the game itself is the biggest problem since it is so broken that it puts us in this situation.  it's really hard to write clear rules about what to skipa nd what to not, etc.

UchihaSasuke

2008-07-10 12:58:44 pm

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

Quote from Prognosis_4:

Quote from KlydeStorm:

Obviously if it's SS, we would need to play the song to move the block, otherwise we'd need the hover boots to get out.

Are you sure you have to save-warp out of the temple?

that doesn't work as adult link.

In_Pieces

2008-07-10 01:19:20 pm

...?

Quote:

Note: Runs without 'major skips' are accepted as a fourth category. The tricks which qualify in this game are: Skipping three medallions; Ganon's castle trials skip.

Umm, where does it say in there "Skipping spiritual stones" qualifies it as major skips? Imho, i think that skipping spiritual stones SHOULD fall under major skips, but as it stands you can do a NMS run, use the DoT skip, and NEVER have to collect the spiritual stones...

UchihaSasuke

2008-07-10 01:29:36 pm

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

note: those rules were made before DoT skip was found.

also, OoB was illegal back then.

those rules should be updated as fast as possible.

Mickey_mage (at work)

2008-07-10 01:32:50 pm

Quote from UchihaSasuke:

no major skips shouldn't use OoB or RBA tricks. it shouldn't use the DoT skip either since that's almost OoB since you are in the void for a fraction of a second and that's enough for OoB.

You are also in the void for a very short time when you skip the gate to get into the Gerudo desert too, right? The difference is that the DoT skip is a much bigger skip of the game, hence why a NMS run would not have the DoT skip because it skips almost literally half the game, as opposed to a smaller OoB, or one that is close to being, that just skips something smaller, not making the run a separate category. The OoB in the Deku Tree can be used in a NMS run since it just skips a large portion of the dungeon, not the game. I think that's what the discussion was about a ways back on this topic.

I think that's even in the new rule for the OoB being allowed now, that it depends on how big the skip is with OoB whether it qualifies it for a separate category or not.

Runnerguy2489

2008-07-10 01:49:48 pm

I'm not your buddy, guay!

Quote from MrSparkle:

Also, why shouldn't the DoT skip be allowed in a NMS run, as long as you go back for the stones? Who cares if you skip getting the Ocarina. It's no different than doing Shadow temple early then collecting the first 3 medallions...

That's a fair point. Although with the medallions you are going back and doing it as an adult, with the stones you would be getting the two as an adult and not a child, that seems like a major change in the game.

It seems your statement comes more from not what tricks or chunks of the game skipped are considered major, but what is actually skipped on the quest status screen (stones and medallions). While I don't agree with that, it may be the best way to go about doing it; it would eliminate a lot of the gray area.

Cosmo.

2008-07-10 02:02:32 pm

This statue's one-eyed gaze pierces into your mind

Quote from Runnerguy2489:

It seems your statement comes more from not what tricks or chunks of the game skipped are considered major, but what is actually skipped on the quest status screen (stones and medallions). While I don't agree with that, it may be the best way to go about doing it; it would eliminate a lot of the gray area.

that would be good except you can RBA for all 3 stones
also you could do stuff like this (not sure how "major" this is)

so if a "no major skips" had 2 rules:
1. end the game w/ 3 stones and 6 medallions
2. no BA at all

would that be sufficient?

In_Pieces

2008-07-10 02:24:42 pm

...?

Quote from Cosmo.:

so if a "no major skips" had 2 rules:
1. end the game w/ 3 stones and 6 medallions
2. no BA at all

would that be sufficient?

That sounds very reasonable!
OoB should not affect it at all...

Major skips, in that case, should be able to utilize skipping spiritual stones, RBA, and skip 3 medallions

Acryte

2008-07-10 04:47:20 pm

Zelda Scientist®

and trials

Satoryu

2008-07-10 06:06:10 pm

Visually Appealing

the dilemma i'm sort of seeing is what exactly constitutes as No Major Skips. a synonym for it, i guess, would be "natural route", but that's not exactly true as Shadow Temple can be done first, etc. it's a given that there's certain things you have to get. but is there a restriction as to how and when you get them?

concerning the Spiritual Stones, for example, can you use the DoT skip, then aquire them later as an adult? or are you forced to get them all as a child like the game wants you too? i would think the former would be acceptable, using Shadow Early as evidence.

BA, however, is definitely a Major Skip in that it eliminates the need to enter certain dungeons altogether.

i never understood why the Trials Skip was/is a seperate category. it's not OoB, as you're not in a void. you're just in the hub room with unloaded textures. it's the same exploit as Shadow Early.

Cs1987

Edit history:

Cs1987: 2008-07-10 10:25:07 pm

2008-07-10 10:08:52 pm

Some guy

I didn't voice my exact opinion on the rules before, but I believe the definition of No Major Skips should simply be:

1. Get all spiritual stones and medallions by defeating the dungeon bosses.
2. Complete the trials.
3. No use of BA or RBA is allowed.

I like to define major skips in terms of achievements rather than items acquired or quest status. In any% for both MS and NMS, you should be allowed to skip any items you want - that's one of the main reasons why I love any% runs on Metroid Prime - skipping the Spider Ball, Grapple Beam, Gravity Suit etc saves so much time. I still consider completing the trials to be a major achievement in the game, which is why they should be included.

This does of course vary from the natural route a lot. If we were to have natural route runs for OoT, we could just stick one of TSA's runs back up, anyway.

I am unsure if all temples can be completed without the Song Of Time. We'll have to test that.

SmashKing/SK!Z$L3TZ

2008-07-10 10:15:40 pm

I am not a NERD or a GEEK I am a N33K

well the forest temple you need the song of time.
unless you skip the temple

Cs1987

2008-07-10 10:26:44 pm

Some guy

The blue blocks aren't there as Child Link. Are they there if you are Adult Link, but don't have the Ocarina/Song of Time?

UchihaSasuke

2008-07-10 10:47:03 pm

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

a rule that would suit no major skips is "no going through any walls no matter how much it skips".
that takes care of most of the gray area.

the only problem is shadow early since it doesn't break any rules and makes possible skipping the first 2 1/2 temples. i don't know how you guys feel but, to me, doing a trick that lets me skip stuff and then doing the stuff i was supposed to skip seems contradictory.

if the runner is fine, then no problem, but it seems weird.