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Lykaios: 2011-08-08 01:53:49 am
Lykaios: 2011-08-07 07:47:03 pm
**Mods: I searched the Older Consoles board for "little nemo" and found nothing, but if there's already a topic, sorry, lemme know and I'll move this.**

Well, regardless of whether Arrow decides to run this (and thus maybe benefit / chime in with some tricks) or bubble bobble in January , I'm playing around with this game, and have found a couple improvements over the existing run in my first couple playthroughs.

The big one is here:
.

Looks to save around 15 seconds, since you don't have to loop around the upper path just to get to the frog.

Basically I'm just trying to find some spots to improve, and if there's enough, I'm going to take a crack at the current record.
Thread title:  
Edit history:
Lykaios: 2011-08-07 09:31:45 pm
Lykaios: 2011-08-07 09:11:29 pm
Lykaios: 2011-08-07 09:07:52 pm
Lykaios: 2011-08-07 09:06:49 pm
Actually, I just found a better one that lets you skip the frog altogether, and makes the next section faster:



I'm gonna go back and see where else I can use these puffs for skips, they're great. Properly executed, this could save up to half a minute.

Edit: Some notes for myself:

Speeds:

Nemo = 1

Frog

Walking = .5
Jumping = 1.1 (horizontally, taking into account pause during landing)

Lizard

Running = 1.5

Bee

Running = .8

Flight = 1.1 (horizontally)

*Flight is determined by time, jump button input is only registered for the first ~3.5 seconds in air.


aaannnnd, yeah:



Arrow, you gotta do this at the marathon, there is entertaining stuff in this game. Hopefully I could get approval to race you.
I believe that's already in the TAS, right?
Edit history:
Lykaios: 2011-08-08 01:28:42 am
Lykaios: 2011-08-08 01:27:53 am
Yeah, haha. I just watched the TAS. Sigh, I was all kinds of proud of myself too. Oh well, watching the TAS just now also proved me right that you can keep the bee all the way to the last boss. I just need to analyze the way they're flying. I hope it's doable by a human.

So yeah, egg on my face.

Edit: Okay, what I've found so far to improve upon the existing run:

Overall:

the frog is faster than Nemo if he's constantly jumping, even by human standards.

every wall walk is faster with jumping

need way more boosts.

Level 1:

2 missed boosts, pretty optimized level.

Level 2:

The ape climb up the tree can be about 5 seconds faster.

Getting the key just below the spikes has about a second of sloppiness.

Getting in the lizard is about a second slow.

Level 3:

Autoscroller.

Level 4:

Using the crab to get the first key and going under the boat saves around 5-6 seconds.

Missed 2 boosts, one into water which actually saves quite a bit of time.

Level 5:

Getting the first key with the frog saves 5-7 seconds.

The entry to the basement can be  optimized. You can also skip the lizard. Altogether about 15 seconds

3 boosts missed in the attic which save big time (they skip waiting for traps), probably 5-6 seconds in total.

Level 6: Auto-Scroller

Level 7:

Getting the first key with the frog saves 2-3 seconds.

Skipping the first bee saves around 2-3 seconds.

Going the lower route for the final key saves 3-4 seconds.

Level 8:

really nothing, done really well.

Level 9:

The only standout here is skipping the frog, which nets you nearly 45 seconds of improvement.

I guess the boss could be faster, but it's a wicked random battle.

Level 10:

The first part of this level is kinda messy, about 10 seconds worth.

Still don't know if the bee trick is doable by a human. If so, something like an extra 15 seconds to the boss.

The boss fight's not bad, maybe a couple seconds of optimization possible.

===

Okay, now that I know what I'm up against, I need to learn how to execute it. Practice time.
Edit history:
Lykaios: 2011-08-08 01:52:33 am
Sorry for the faux pas of double-posting, but if my above calculations are correct, and taking into account needing the run to be marathon-safe, a good estimate is 26:15 for a marathon run, kicked up to 30:00 in case of marathon luck.

A submittable run would have to be below 25:45.

There's also a death abuse I didn't mention which cuts out another 15 seconds, fwiw.
Okay, I found a zip glitch:

If you are using the lizard or frog, and you wall-walk / jump (as the frog) as high as you can into a corner, you will zip to the left.

There are only a couple spots I've found to use it in, but just those would be able to shave 45 seconds-ish off the TAS. More research later.
Now a hit show on the CW
Quote from Lykaios:
Okay, I found a zip glitch:

If you are using the lizard or frog, and you wall-walk / jump (as the frog) as high as you can into a corner, you will zip to the left.

There are only a couple spots I've found to use it in, but just those would be able to shave 45 seconds-ish off the TAS. More research later.

Wow, this sounds like a pretty major discovery - I'll be interested to see where you're able to utilize it.
Personal text
Why are there no updates in this thread since 2011-08-11? The suspense is killing me!
Edit history:
Joka: 2013-02-19 01:49:26 am
Personal text
I've been thinking about learning this game, since I really enjoy playing it.
It didn't go very well yesterday when I tried to run it, but this thread has some really helpful tips Smiley The frog skip in level 9 makes that level a lot more fun! I really need to prectice the last boss though..

But what happend to Lykaios?
Edit history:
Joka: 2013-03-14 04:17:50 am
Personal text
Has anyone figured out how damage from the scepter work and how much HP bosses have? It seems a bit... random?.. to me, right now.
Going to try and figure it out myself, but if someone already has - that would save me a lot of time and trouble Smiley
Personal text
Staff/scepter/wand/star - whatever it is
Speedrunner
Well. You do more dmg with the bar fully charged. Thats about it i think. Smiley
Edit history:
Joka: 2013-03-14 05:30:14 am
Joka: 2013-03-14 05:24:15 am
Personal text
But how much more? Is it worth charging it? Tongue

Edit 1: Also, the hitboxes of the bosses seem weird. It's not exactly clear if you actually do damage or not.

Edit 2: I might be overthinking this - but I need to know!
Personal text
I looked at some runs and wrote down how many hits the first boss (the big penguin) took to kill:

Code:
		Full		>75%		>50%		>25%		>0%
SDA run:	1		4		0		1		1		 
my PB:		9		0		0		0		0
old run 1:	8		0		0		0		0		
old run 2:	4		1		0		0		0		
dxtr:		7		1		0		1		2			


So.. so far it makes no sense.
All the things
It does more damage if you hit the penguin in the Head as opposed to his belly. A lot more.
Personal text
Ahh, thank you! Do you know if it does any damage at all if you hit him in the belly?
All the things
I think it does,  but I can't be completely sure. It's also difficult to tell where the head begins and his belly ends, but eh.
Edit history:
Joka: 2013-03-15 01:30:44 am
Joka: 2013-03-15 01:30:04 am
Personal text
I did some testing (because I really want to know now!) on the second boss, who seem to be far more consistent than the penguin for whatever reason.

As far as I can tell, there are three steps: 1 damage at low charge, 3 at medium and 5 at "full". 
The second boss have 35 health (I guess) and it consistently took either 35 small shots, 12 medium or 7 full -shots to kill him.

The penguin, however, took somewhere between 5-8 full shots to the head to die and a lot more full shots if you hit below his mid point. I haven't figured out a pattern at all, but aiming at the center of the head is probably the way to go Tongue

The reason I brought this up was that the SDA run spams the last boss with randomly charged shots and kills him a lot faster than me, who make sure to only hit him with fully charged shots.

EDIT: I guees there might actually only be two steps - charged and uncharged and the threshold is 50%, assuming I fired half uncharged and half charged shots when I was going for "medium charged" Tongue
Edit history:
Joka: 2013-03-15 04:18:06 pm
Personal text
28:27 - getting there Smiley
Edit history:
Joka: 2013-03-18 05:29:29 am
Personal text
If anyone is intrested, I have some comments on the comments on the SDA run Tongue

Quote from Lykaios:
Overall:

the frog is faster than Nemo if he's constantly jumping, even by human standards.

every wall walk is faster with jumping

need way more boosts.

All this is true.

Quote from Lykaios:
Level 1:

2 missed boosts, pretty optimized level.

Seems about right.

Quote from Lykaios:
Level 2:

The ape climb up the tree can be about 5 seconds faster.

I don't see how it can be improved by that much, by a human. But I might be wrong on this.

Quote from Lykaios:
Getting the key just below the spikes has about a second of sloppiness.

Getting in the lizard is about a second slow.

This is true. He has to fly up an extra time just to bait the floating ghost-head-thing.

Quote from Lykaios:
Level 3:

Autoscroller.

My split is more than a second faster (somehow). I'm not sure how, probably a timing misstake on my end Tongue

Quote from Lykaios:
Level 4:

Using the crab to get the first key and going under the boat saves around 5-6 seconds.

I don't agree with this, not in real time anyway. Maybe 2 seconds tops (if it's even faster at all), assuming I'm not the worlds worst crab-user.
It's easy to lose time when feeding/getting the crab.

Quote from Lykaios:
Missed 2 boosts, one into water which actually saves quite a bit of time.

Where? I need to investigate this.

Quote from Lykaios:
Level 5:

Getting the first key with the frog saves 5-7 seconds.

There was virtually no difference when I timed it, using the bee to get the first key, or the frog. In my opinion, you can dodge the bats much easier with the bee, thus saving some time.

Quote from Lykaios:
The entry to the basement can be  optimized. You can also skip the lizard. Altogether about 15 seconds

The entry to the basement - yes.
Skipping the lizard however, doesn't seem to be doable in real time. I need to try this more though. Skipping the lizard would save a lot of time!

Quote from Lykaios:
3 boosts missed in the attic which save big time (they skip waiting for traps), probably 5-6 seconds in total.

Yepp

Quote from Lykaios:
Level 6: Auto-Scroller

The whole level isn't auto-scroller. Some improvements could be made on the two parts that isn't. You can also keep the bee for the whole level (which helps a lot!), but it might not be doable in real time, or not consistent enough.

Quote from Lykaios:
Level 7:

Getting the first key with the frog saves 2-3 seconds.

Maybe not 2-3, but it's a little bit faster.

Quote from Lykaios:
Skipping the first bee saves around 2-3 seconds.

Yepp

Quote from Lykaios:
Going the lower route for the final key saves 3-4 seconds.

Not when i timed it. But I might need to check this out again. 3-4 seconds is a long time!
The upper route is easier though.

Quote from Lykaios:
Level 8:

really nothing, done really well.

Not enough wall jumps! Smiley

Quote from Lykaios:
Level 9:

The only standout here is skipping the frog, which nets you nearly 45 seconds of improvement.

I guess the boss could be faster, but it's a wicked random battle.

Skipping the frog is a big one. 45 seconds seems right.
And the boss fight is not random at all. He has the same pattern everytime. Really fast kill, but might be slightly improvable.

Quote from Lykaios:
Level 10:

The first part of this level is kinda messy, about 10 seconds worth.

Yepp. Probably more.

Quote from Lykaios:
Still don't know if the bee trick is doable by a human. If so, something like an extra 15 seconds to the boss.

I tried this maybe 10-15 times. My method was: boost of the hammer-rat and then start flying, spamming as fast as I can. I managed to aaaalmost get it (about a bee-height too short). So there's probably some crazy person who can do it Tongue
For now, I'll just switch to the rat.

Quote from Lykaios:
The boss fight's not bad, maybe a couple seconds of optimization possible.

If you get really lucky, the first red blob that he spawns can be in a position where you don't have to worry about it at all and can just pretty much stand still and hit him with fully charged shots.
But that's just luck based, I haven't found a way to manipulate it.
Edit history:
Joka: 2013-03-21 01:44:53 am
Personal text
Post on TASVideos explains how the penguin-boss works (http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=342460#342460):

Quote:
The Penguin boss has 23 HP. Depending on how much your staff is charged, you'll deal between 1 and 5 damage to him.
The only way to hurt him is to hit him on the head. In practice, this means that you have to stand far enough to the left for your shot to hit him on the head.


In case this drives anyone else crazy in the future Smiley

EDIT: However, I have noticed that his hitbox seems to shift slightly when he spawns the little penguins, making it very easy to "miss" a shot.
http://twitch.tv/MrJugajoga/new
Hey all, so I just picked this game up a couple days ago and I have a PB of 29:42 (I can easily cut more than 1:30 with newer strats) and my friend and I have been attempting to find a couple of new things. I have found a couple second savers but nothing very big.
Personal text
Just got a 27:27 while streaming. 1 death :/
If I clean up my execution, sub 26:00 should be possible.
http://twitch.tv/MrJugajoga/new
Wellll I just got a new WR at 26:25.9

I didn't get any of the cutscene skips and I did some safety/slow strats throughout the run so it could probably be beaten by around a minute or more. I will (hopefully) do a more in-depth analysis soon!
http://twitch.tv/MrJugajoga/new
NOTE: I cut out all the tiny mistakes (such as hesitation or un-harmful, unintentional damage boosts)

World 1
Missed cutscene skip
Lost about 2-3 seconds feeding the mole
Didn't have enough health to damage boost off the second bat

World 2
Very difficult cutscene skip might save time
Damage boost(s) to get onto the tree could've been done about a second faster

World 3
Autoscroller (I hit my split at the wrong time here so the time was off :P)

World 4
Cutscene skip is doable but missed
Still don't know for sure if getting the first crab saves time
    Getting rid of the crab was very sloppy
Bad tadpole spawn at the bottom of the tunnel with the frog
Feeding the second crab wasn't perfect

World 5 (had a lot of messy minor mistakes, can be cleaned up a lot)
Missed the easy cutscene skip
Hit the snail with the frog suit (didn't lose much time but can be cleaner)
Got stuck on the wall/ledge with the lizard suit
Getting out of the attic with the mouse can be done a little faster with a good pattern
Got hit backwards by the bowling ball in between the two blocks

World 6
Another almost impossible cutscene skip
I played the bee part right before getting the lizard a bit safe due to low health (there are some extra damage boosts possible)
As a side note, I found that you can freeze the snail at the end, jump onto the very edge of the platform and jump over him and damage boost to the right to save about a second. It's very risky and I usually don't have health for it.

World 7
Got damage boosted into the frog
Don't know if its faster to keep the frog or get the first bee
After the getting the bee I took a hit and let the monkeys spawn, probably 5s or so lost
Got hit backwards by the monkey getting the 6th key
Apparently it's faster to stay low at the end, haven't found a good route for it as I usually get a nice damage boost while going up

World 8 (lots of sloppiness here as I was pretty nervous)
Had problems getting out of the water right before the Stingray
Not a good Stingray boss fight (got a bad pattern due to missing a hit and still got pretty lucky)
Decent final boss fight, might be able to get a little faster (I should've died to the red blob right at the end, my heart stopped)

Overall, not a bad run. Of course, getting the cutscene skips would be the biggest way to improve. I know for a fact (based off my best split) I can save at least another 15 seconds in the first 7 worlds without the cutscene skips though. World 8 was a bit shaky but turned out better than I thought when I was playing it. I probably should've beat the old record a bit earlier than I did but I kept choking right at the end :(. Good luck to all who wish to beat it! Hope this analysis helps.