Legacy of the Wizard - September 21st, 2009

mikwuyma

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2009-09-22 02:28:06 am

2009-09-21 07:12:33 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/LegacyOfTheWizard.html

Jeff Feasel's single-segment run

Verifier Responses

Quote:

Verifier: legacy of the wizard was really good too
Verifier: not really that much to say since i don't think the route changed much
Verifier: i would really have to watch the new run and the old run side by side to see what went better
Verifier: and i haven't done that
Verifier: i don't feel like he got a lot more speed scrolls
Verifier: but that's the main thing for time

Quote:

Hi Mike.

Here are my comments on the Legacy of the Wizard speed run:

All in all, this is a very nice improvement over the existing run. There is no cheating evident in the video and the audio and video quality are fine. The runner uses the same path as the previous runner and manages to slowly accumulate a 1 minute 13 second gain over the previous video (the runner presses start at the title screen at 0:08 and the final hit on the dragon comes at 29:01, making the total time 28:53, vs. 30:06 on the previous run).

I accept this run as an improvement to the existing run. Well done!

Quote:

looks good. no cheating.

A lot of give and take on time saving throughout the run since it uses the same route, but with more scroll drops this run basically has free boss fights. I'm sure this could go lower though with tighter execution on the corner jumps and the same if not better random scroll drops. Who's willing to spend the month of straight playing to drop the time by another minute or two?

improvement = accept.

Decision: Accept

Reason: It's an improvement

Thread title:

Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/LegacyOfTheWizard.html

Jeff Feasel's single-segment run

[b]Verifier Responses[/b]

[quote]Verifier: legacy of the wizard was really good too
Verifier: not really that much to say since i don't think the route changed much
Verifier: i would really have to watch the new run and the old run side by side to see what went better
Verifier: and i haven't done that
Verifier: i don't feel like he got a lot more speed scrolls
Verifier: but that's the main thing for time[/quote]

[quote]Hi Mike.

Here are my comments on the Legacy of the Wizard speed run:

All in all, this is a very nice improvement over the existing run. There is no cheating evident in the video and the audio and video quality are fine. The runner uses the same path as the previous runner and manages to slowly accumulate a 1 minute 13 second gain over the previous video (the runner presses start at the title screen at 0:08 and the final hit on the dragon comes at 29:01, making the total time 28:53, vs. 30:06 on the previous run).

I accept this run as an improvement to the existing run. Well done![/quote]

[quote]looks good. no cheating.

A lot of give and take on time saving throughout the run since it uses the same route, but with more scroll drops this run basically has free boss fights. I'm sure this could go lower though with tighter execution on the corner jumps and the same if not better random scroll drops. Who's willing to spend the month of straight playing to drop the time by another minute or two?

improvement = accept.[/quote]

[b]Decision[/b]: Accept

[b]Reason[/b]: It's an improvement

feasel

2009-09-22 01:16:46 am

difficult and stupidly random

Woo hoo.

The route i used in this run is not much different than Dragondarch's. Sequencing has already been broken just about as far as it can break given the pause-jump glitch, so the route is probably not going to improve any further. There were two places where i used different inns than Dragondarch did -- one case (before sister's 2nd boss) because it was less out-of-the-way and in the other case (before sister's 1st boss) becase it allowed me to spend more time farming for speed scrolls and money without wearing down my life and magic (which won't be refilled after that boss). Other than that, it was just minor tactical changes.

The main way i saved time was by getting more speed scrolls (and getting them in places where they'll do the most good). Scroll drops are possible only during certain windows of opportunity (must have 20+ life, 30+ magic, 3+ keys). So it's a matter of identifying enemies you can kill (without slowing down) during stretches of the game where your life/magic/keys meet the criteria. Though the scroll drops are luck, I was able to have significantly better luck than the previous video because i killed more enemies during those windows of opportunity. So my contribution is basically better farming strategy.

Woo hoo.

The route i used in this run is not much different than Dragondarch's.  Sequencing has already been broken just about as far as it can break given the pause-jump glitch, so the route is probably not going to improve any further.  There were two places where i used different inns than Dragondarch did -- one case (before sister's 2nd boss) because it was less out-of-the-way and in the other case (before sister's 1st boss) becase it allowed me to spend more time farming for speed scrolls and money without wearing down my life and magic (which won't be refilled after that boss).  Other than that, it was just minor tactical changes.

The main way i saved time was by getting more speed scrolls (and getting them in places where they'll do the most good).  Scroll drops are possible only during certain windows of opportunity (must have 20+ life, 30+ magic, 3+ keys).  So it's a matter of identifying enemies you can kill (without slowing down) during stretches of the game where your life/magic/keys meet the criteria.  Though the scroll drops are luck, I was able to have significantly better luck than the previous video because i killed more enemies during those windows of opportunity.  So my contribution is basically better farming strategy.

Enhasa

2009-09-22 02:28:50 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

That sister is really hot, I want to add. The mom too.

Dragondarch

2009-09-22 02:41:36 pm

Pudding%

OK, so, I was supposed to verify this but forgot all about it after downloading the video...soooo here's some impromptu comments:

Overall: I found that with only 1 speed scroll, jumping up ladders is actually slower than climbing them, unless the jump will take you over the top, then it's equal. When you had 2 in Xemn's area, it was actually slowing you down even more to jump up them like that.

Pochi's area: No comments.

Lyll's area: I originally questioned the inn location here, but after reading your above post, understand the idea behind it.

Xemn's area: After grabbing the speed scroll from the chest, how exactly did you get those blocks to break like that? I remember trying to do it, but they'd either not break at all, or only the highest one would break, which wouldn't allow me to take that route.

Mayna's area: The only thing I wonder about here is how those invisible snifit looking enemies were able to be killed. IIRC, you couldn't damage them until you have touched them at least once (a la Pochi's death chests).

Roas' run: Why didn't you bother killing anything after you had the Dragon Slayer? You had enough Magic/Life to allow for scroll drops, and would have only had to pick up one key. At best, you may have gotten a scroll on the way to Keela.

Interesting note: You organize your items with Roas the same way I do. I take it you had a couple runs ruined when you accidentally entered the picture at the entrance to Lyll's area? Wink

OK, so, I was supposed to verify this but forgot all about it after downloading the video...soooo here's some impromptu comments:

Overall: I found that with only 1 speed scroll, jumping up ladders is actually slower than climbing them, unless the jump will take you over the top, then it's equal. When you had 2 in Xemn's area, it was actually slowing you down even more to jump up them like that.

Pochi's area: No comments.

Lyll's area: I originally questioned the inn location here, but after reading your above post, understand the idea behind it.

Xemn's area: After grabbing the speed scroll from the chest, how exactly did you get those blocks to break like that? I remember trying to do it, but they'd either not break at all, or only the highest one would break, which wouldn't allow me to take that route.

Mayna's area: The only thing I wonder about here is how those invisible snifit looking enemies were able to be killed. IIRC, you couldn't damage them until you have touched them at least once (a la Pochi's death chests).

Roas' run: Why didn't you bother killing anything after you had the Dragon Slayer? You had enough Magic/Life to allow for scroll drops, and would have only had to pick up one key. At best, you may have gotten a scroll on the way to Keela.

Interesting note: You organize your items with Roas the same way I do. I take it you had a couple runs ruined when you accidentally entered the picture at the entrance to Lyll's area?  ;)

feasel

2009-09-22 08:09:18 pm

difficult and stupidly random

Quote:

I found that with only 1 speed scroll, jumping up ladders is actually slower than climbing them, unless the jump will take you over the top, then it's equal. When you had 2 in Xemn's area, it was actually slowing you down even more to jump up them like that.

That's a good observation -- i think you're right. I hadn't noticed that.

Quote:

Xemn's area: After grabbing the speed scroll from the chest, how exactly did you get those blocks to break like that? I remember trying to do it, but they'd either not break at all, or only the highest one would break, which wouldn't allow me to take that route.

Yes, i had the same problem initially. It seems really random which brick the game chooses to break. On the screen where you get the treasure-chest scroll, you climb to the top of the ladder, almost off the screen, and begin the jump from there. (Start lower down and it won't work). And then you have to be holding the right arrow before the next screen appears. Then it is pretty much guaranteed that you will break that particular block on the upswing and then land in the open spot on the way back down. And this is a great spot to net a lot of cash and scroll opportunities from one location -- i can often get 6 or 7 drops in about 3 seconds since the scroll gives you long range shots and the enemies all kind of collect there.

Quote:

Mayna's area: The only thing I wonder about here is how those invisible snifit looking enemies were able to be killed. IIRC, you couldn't damage them until you have touched them at least once (a la Pochi's death chests).

Only some of the inivisble dudes are invincible -- i either jump those or run through. Others can be killed in just a few shots.

Quote:

Roas' run: Why didn't you bother killing anything after you had the Dragon Slayer? You had enough Magic/Life to allow for scroll drops, and would have only had to pick up one key. At best, you may have gotten a scroll on the way to Keela.

I don't farm for scrolls after i grab the dragon slayer and warp back to start because i don't want to have any scrolls active during the fight with Keela. Being sped-up would completely mess up the timing and make it hard to maneuver precisely. I would have had to stop and wait for the scroll to wear off before activating Keela, so there's no time saving.

Quote:

Interesting note: You organize your items with Roas the same way I do. I take it you had a couple runs ruined when you accidentally entered the picture at the entrance to Lyll's area? Wink

The item ordering you did in your run makes very good sense, so i was fortunate to have it as a reference. Putting the blank item in the inventory so you don't have to waste time switching off the crown -- that's clever. And the order in which Mayna's items are chosen so that the knuckle can be equipped at the last inn in lieu of the crossbow. That makes good sense.

I've got a question for you: Did you find any kind of pattern to the random item drops? I acutally noticed that if i played consistently the first 8 enemies i killed often tend to give me the same items. I think it is a function of time-elapsed-since-start and how much magic and life you have, but i have no idea what other factors are involved. I managed to find a pattern where i could consistently pick up a scroll from the 6th guy i killed (as you saw in the video). I get it about 40% of the time (and i reset if it doesn't work). Problem is i'm unable to maintain consistency for very long, so the predictability of scroll drops goes to pretty much nil after about 40 seconds of play. I think it would be interesting if someone was able to figure out just what factors go into the item drops and manage to play consistently enough that they could actually begin to manipulate luck. Even if it only works for the first few scrolls, it would be a big pay-off.

[quote author=Dragondarch]
I found that with only 1 speed scroll, jumping up ladders is actually slower than climbing them, unless the jump will take you over the top, then it's equal. When you had 2 in Xemn's area, it was actually slowing you down even more to jump up them like that.
[/quote]

That's a good observation -- i think you're right.  I hadn't noticed that.

[quote author=Dragondarch]
Xemn's area: After grabbing the speed scroll from the chest, how exactly did you get those blocks to break like that? I remember trying to do it, but they'd either not break at all, or only the highest one would break, which wouldn't allow me to take that route.
[/quote]

Yes, i had the same problem initially.  It seems really random which brick the game chooses to break.  On the screen where you get the treasure-chest scroll, you climb to the top of the ladder, almost off the screen, and begin the jump from there.  (Start lower down and it won't work).  And then you have to be holding the right arrow before the next screen appears.  Then it is pretty much guaranteed that you will break that particular block on the upswing and then land in the open spot on the way back down.  And this is a great spot to net a lot of cash and scroll opportunities from one location -- i can often get 6 or 7 drops in about 3 seconds since the scroll gives you long range shots and the enemies all kind of collect there.

[quote author=Dragondarch]
Mayna's area: The only thing I wonder about here is how those invisible snifit looking enemies were able to be killed. IIRC, you couldn't damage them until you have touched them at least once (a la Pochi's death chests).
[/quote]

Only some of the inivisble dudes are invincible -- i either jump those or run through.  Others can be killed in just a few shots.

[quote author=Dragondarch]
Roas' run: Why didn't you bother killing anything after you had the Dragon Slayer? You had enough Magic/Life to allow for scroll drops, and would have only had to pick up one key. At best, you may have gotten a scroll on the way to Keela.
[/quote]

I don't farm for scrolls after i grab the dragon slayer and warp back to start because i don't want to have any scrolls active during the fight with Keela.  Being sped-up would completely mess up the timing and make it hard to maneuver precisely.  I would have had to stop and wait for the scroll to wear off before activating Keela, so there's no time saving.

[quote author=Dragondarch]
Interesting note: You organize your items with Roas the same way I do. I take it you had a couple runs ruined when you accidentally entered the picture at the entrance to Lyll's area?  ;)
[/quote]

The item ordering you did in your run makes very good sense, so i was fortunate to have it as a reference.  Putting the blank item in the inventory so you don't have to waste time switching off the crown -- that's clever.  And the order in which Mayna's items are chosen so that the knuckle can be equipped at the last inn in lieu of the crossbow.  That makes good sense.

I've got a question for you:  Did you find any kind of pattern to the random item drops?  I acutally noticed that if i played consistently the first 8 enemies i killed often tend to give me the same items.  I think it is a function of time-elapsed-since-start and how much magic and life you have, but i have no idea what other factors are involved.  I managed to find a pattern where i could consistently pick up a scroll from the 6th guy i killed (as you saw in the video).   I get it about 40% of the time (and i reset if it doesn't work).  Problem is i'm unable to maintain consistency for very long, so the predictability of scroll drops goes to pretty much nil after about 40 seconds of play.  I think it would be interesting if someone was able to figure out just what factors go into the item drops and manage to play consistently enough that they could actually begin to manipulate luck.  Even if it only works for the first few scrolls, it would be a big pay-off.

Dragondarch

2009-09-22 11:41:48 pm

Pudding%

Quote from feasel:

Only some of the inivisble dudes are invincible -- i either jump those or run through. Others can be killed in just a few shots.

Huh...I did not know that. Nice to know Smiley

Quote from feasel:

I don't farm for scrolls after i grab the dragon slayer and warp back to start because i don't want to have any scrolls active during the fight with Keela. Being sped-up would completely mess up the timing and make it hard to maneuver precisely. I would have had to stop and wait for the scroll to wear off before activating Keela, so there's no time saving.

Hmmm...I could have sworn that the moment you start the fight with Keela, any scroll effects you have are removed
(hang on...checking the TAS)
Yeah, I started counting when he got his last scroll, and he engages Keela 23 seconds later, meaning he had 7 seconds left on the scroll when he gained control of Roas for the Keela fight, and his speed/shot range returned to normal.

Quote from feasel:

I've got a question for you: Did you find any kind of pattern to the random item drops? I acutally noticed that if i played consistently the first 8 enemies i killed often tend to give me the same items. I think it is a function of time-elapsed-since-start and how much magic and life you have, but i have no idea what other factors are involved. I managed to find a pattern where i could consistently pick up a scroll from the 6th guy i killed (as you saw in the video). I get it about 40% of the time (and i reset if it doesn't work). Problem is i'm unable to maintain consistency for very long, so the predictability of scroll drops goes to pretty much nil after about 40 seconds of play. I think it would be interesting if someone was able to figure out just what factors go into the item drops and manage to play consistently enough that they could actually begin to manipulate luck. Even if it only works for the first few scrolls, it would be a big pay-off.

I did notice this same thing. I was generally able to get it to work up until the flying fish in Pochi's area or so. I never had any scrolls come of it though. Whenever this happened, enemies always moved in the exact same patterns as well. I don't have anything more conclusive that you do about why it happens, though.

On another note: I think I may have found a slight route improvement!
The change would be to do Lyll's area first, then do Pochi's area second with Lyll. This would wind up saving time from not having to swap family members, but would cost a small amount from at least one inn trip. It would also save time in Pochi's area since most of the green room could be bypassed.
I thought of this while watching the TAS. He manipulates a ring to get past the Doom-Chest. Obviously, this isn't feasible in a console run. However, you can use an Elixir to revive after taking one hit, which will allow you to kill the chest. There's an Elixir in Lyll's area that's pretty much on the way - go up at the first hole in the ceiling and keep pressing right...you'll pop out right on top of it, and can also avoid having to do the pause trick to get up to the ladder leading to the lower area.
The only issue I've come up with here is Lyll's survival in Pochi's area. After grabbing the Power Glove, those one-eyed frogs are pretty much a death sentence if any of them decide to double hit. In order to avoid 2 inn trips after Lyll's area, you'd have to have one hell of a Taratunes fight, and get moderately lucky in the first large room in Pochi's area. Even with 2 inn trips though, I think it'd still be faster than a member swap. If 2 are used, the first would be at the one near Keela, with the 2nd being at the last inn before the Crown in Pochi's area. It would be optimal to try and avoid the one before entering Pochi's area, but I don't know if Lyll's Life could hold out.
There's also the option of backtracking a bit after getting the Power Glove and taking the other route, which I think is a bit less damaging.

[quote="feasel"]Only some of the inivisble dudes are invincible -- i either jump those or run through.  Others can be killed in just a few shots.[/quote]

Huh...I did not know that. Nice to know :)

[quote="feasel"]I don't farm for scrolls after i grab the dragon slayer and warp back to start because i don't want to have any scrolls active during the fight with Keela.  Being sped-up would completely mess up the timing and make it hard to maneuver precisely.  I would have had to stop and wait for the scroll to wear off before activating Keela, so there's no time saving.[/quote]

Hmmm...I could have sworn that the moment you start the fight with Keela, any scroll effects you have are removed
(hang on...checking the TAS)
Yeah, I started counting when he got his last scroll, and he engages Keela 23 seconds later, meaning he had 7 seconds left on the scroll when he gained control of Roas for the Keela fight, and his speed/shot range returned to normal.

[quote="feasel"]I've got a question for you:  Did you find any kind of pattern to the random item drops?  I acutally noticed that if i played consistently the first 8 enemies i killed often tend to give me the same items.  I think it is a function of time-elapsed-since-start and how much magic and life you have, but i have no idea what other factors are involved.  I managed to find a pattern where i could consistently pick up a scroll from the 6th guy i killed (as you saw in the video).   I get it about 40% of the time (and i reset if it doesn't work).  Problem is i'm unable to maintain consistency for very long, so the predictability of scroll drops goes to pretty much nil after about 40 seconds of play.  I think it would be interesting if someone was able to figure out just what factors go into the item drops and manage to play consistently enough that they could actually begin to manipulate luck.  Even if it only works for the first few scrolls, it would be a big pay-off.[/quote]

I did notice this same thing. I was generally able to get it to work up until the flying fish in Pochi's area or so. I never had any scrolls come of it though. Whenever this happened, enemies always moved in the exact same patterns as well. I don't have anything more conclusive that you do about why it happens, though.

On another note: I think I may have found a slight route improvement!
The change would be to do Lyll's area first, then do Pochi's area second with Lyll. This would wind up saving time from not having to swap family members, but would cost a small amount from at least one inn trip. It would also save time in Pochi's area since most of the green room could be bypassed.
I thought of this while watching the TAS. He manipulates a ring to get past the Doom-Chest. Obviously, this isn't feasible in a console run. However, you can use an Elixir to revive after taking one hit, which will allow you to kill the chest. There's an Elixir in Lyll's area that's pretty much on the way - go up at the first hole in the ceiling and keep pressing right...you'll pop out right on top of it, and can also avoid having to do the pause trick to get up to the ladder leading to the lower area.
The only issue I've come up with here is Lyll's survival in Pochi's area. After grabbing the Power Glove, those one-eyed frogs are pretty much a death sentence if any of them decide to double hit. In order to avoid 2 inn trips after Lyll's area, you'd have to have one hell of a Taratunes fight, and get moderately lucky in the first large room in Pochi's area. Even with 2 inn trips though, I think it'd still be faster than a member swap. If 2 are used, the first would be at the one near Keela, with the 2nd being at the last inn before the Crown in Pochi's area. It would be optimal to try and avoid the one before entering Pochi's area, but I don't know if Lyll's Life could hold out.
There's also the option of backtracking a bit after getting the Power Glove and taking the other route, which I think is a bit less damaging.