The Chamber of Birth shop is where the triple ammo comes from. The wiki apparently claims the Temple of Moonlight shop sells a triple ammo box as well, not exclusive to the Japanese version. I wonder if we can confirm that in any other version - you'd need to buy the Scriptures here on a 100% run, and if this is indeed a triple box, that could be a factor.
SDA Forum
The original, since 2003.
You can always test it out in a dry run, or if you have a file that's near the end of the game, you can poke around and mess around with that to see if that glitch still works, or if more recent versions have fixed that.
I actually don't know what version HiddenDistance is running for his Any% attempts, but as I understand it, the indie sites still have the old versions of the remake, unless it's been updated recently. I've persoanlly broken the 1 hour 50 min Any% mark with some persistent segmented runs, but I don't think I could do much better than that.
I'd totally be game for doing couch work if this game ever made it to an AGDQ though (I'm much closer to that one being on the East Coast)
I actually don't know what version HiddenDistance is running for his Any% attempts, but as I understand it, the indie sites still have the old versions of the remake, unless it's been updated recently. I've persoanlly broken the 1 hour 50 min Any% mark with some persistent segmented runs, but I don't think I could do much better than that.
I'd totally be game for doing couch work if this game ever made it to an AGDQ though (I'm much closer to that one being on the East Coast)
Quote:
"Kill all bosses on Hard Mode, All Treasures/Items/Maps, All Software, all Secret Treasure Chests, and beating Hell Temple"
If there's already an existing run or runner that does include the emails & what not, it might not be fair to scoop that out from under them, but I haven't seen any 100% runs of La-Mulana. If we constitute the running community for the game, and we decide that this is what a 100% run should be comprised of, then I think it's fair enough that we can set that as that and go forward with it. So with that said, I'd certainly pitch my hat in for that definition of a La-Mulana 100% run.
I do agree though with you Ragu on the note of having hard/hell temple in separate categories, by which I mean have Hell Temple in a normal difficulty 100% run, and then also have hard any% and hard 100% which would include everything. I don't think there's anything wrong with either of those; sure there's not a lot of us running the game, but if the categories constitute a different enough playthrough/strategy/route, then I would think it fair to have the different categories.
I can confirm that the triple box of ammo is for sale in the temple of moonlight secret shop - I don't think it matters what the version is, it's been there in every version I've played of the English SKU. Can we confirm that that is actually a glitch? I always figured that was intended, but then there's the cheap ammo box that you get in the secret shop in the temple of the sun.. so I guess I'm uncertain.
For reference, I use version 1.3.3.1 from Dec10 2012, which I think is still the version that downloads off of Good Old Games.
Edit history:
Dracothuban: 2013-12-07 04:20:49 pm
Dracothuban: 2013-12-07 02:29:34 pm
Dracothuban: 2013-12-07 02:29:14 pm
Dracothuban: 2013-12-07 02:08:11 pm
I agree with the different categories. IMO 100% should not include e-mails or intermediate upgrades (chain whip, buckler, silver shield). But it should include hell temple due to swimsuit but hard mode as a seperate category, and hard mode should only require the bosses be defeated in hard mode. Maybe taunting mulbrook with swimsuit will be another category. I'll start working with the pastebin that I have on a solid route. Final thing, anyone know where I can download the pre-patched version or confirm that GOG has 1.3.3.1? I own the game on pc and steam already but it is past the early mace fix and I don't want to have to buy it again. Oh and i'm pretty sure triple ammo box is intended as it is a secretish shop and it is more expensive.
Edit: also don't think that 100% should include chests...but I can see how it could.
Just found 1.3.3.1
Edit: also don't think that 100% should include chests...but I can see how it could.
Just found 1.3.3.1
So i'm almost done with the route...I have to go back over my videos and write everything down. The original pastebin walkthrough was missing a couple roms and an item but those should be pretty easy to get in there. I'm at 3:40 in game time w/o hell temple so far but i have been going pretty slow with backtracking and very slow boss fights and such. once the route is down I should be able to start working stats. One thing, i'm probably going to run this segmented, how long should the segments be usually, or is there a set limit? Thanks.
Sounds good! A discussion that I was having with th3schwartz a few days ago - if there's still interest in running the game to get the all characters ending, the changes we're making to category names don't really change the fact that it could be its own run under the name 'all characters ending' or something similar. I do think it's a good move, since we do have at least a few runners that have some interest in running other categories with these definition changes, so I think all in all that's a good thing.
I'm definitely looking forward to taking a crack at a 100% run at some point soon, so it should be fun.
I don't know much about segmented runs, but from the ones that I've seen, there doesn't seem to be any set standards to the segments. Taking a look at like.. DW3 on NES, some of the segments are really short, and some are much longer. If I had to speculate I think its the runners' prerogative.
Small addendum - posted a new PB/WR last night - 1:58:41.1!
I'm definitely looking forward to taking a crack at a 100% run at some point soon, so it should be fun.
I don't know much about segmented runs, but from the ones that I've seen, there doesn't seem to be any set standards to the segments. Taking a look at like.. DW3 on NES, some of the segments are really short, and some are much longer. If I had to speculate I think its the runners' prerogative.
Small addendum - posted a new PB/WR last night - 1:58:41.1!
Adding some thoughts since I did a tentative/experimental run to feel out the game and what things I need to pay attention to:
Secret chests don't really add a lot. Realistically all we're looking at there is extra money or bombs, so.. if anyone asked me, I'd probably toss them. In the end, you wind up getting a lot of them anyway because you need the money, but.. meh.
As for Hell Temple? Well.. yeah, the bathing suit isn't an inventory item, but the maps aren't really either, I think they're just included because they come in big shiny chests - and if there's one thing I love, it's big shiny chests.
Personally, I like the idea of including it. For me, the fun of 100% is having an opportunity to show off the other puzzles and get some of the equipment or items that you don't normally get to play around with or see, and that includes an opportunity to show off Hell Temple... but the same argument could apply to the secret chests & their locations. Anyone else want to chime in on it?
Secret chests don't really add a lot. Realistically all we're looking at there is extra money or bombs, so.. if anyone asked me, I'd probably toss them. In the end, you wind up getting a lot of them anyway because you need the money, but.. meh.
As for Hell Temple? Well.. yeah, the bathing suit isn't an inventory item, but the maps aren't really either, I think they're just included because they come in big shiny chests - and if there's one thing I love, it's big shiny chests.
Personally, I like the idea of including it. For me, the fun of 100% is having an opportunity to show off the other puzzles and get some of the equipment or items that you don't normally get to play around with or see, and that includes an opportunity to show off Hell Temple... but the same argument could apply to the secret chests & their locations. Anyone else want to chime in on it?
Personally, I feel it would be best to compare La-Mulana to another game which has lots of stuff to collect but not an actual in-game percentage counter. The Zelda series seems to fit the bill quite nicely.
Regarding inventory items, Link to the Past completes the inventory screen, but does not bother with intermediary upgrades to certain items. When applied to La-Mulana, taking this approach would mean one would be allowed to skip the Chain Whip, the Buckler and the Silver Shield. Software seems similar to items, in that you're clearly working towards filling up an inventory screen of sorts, so those should be collected as well.
Regarding health upgrades, 100% runs of Zelda games appear to always collect all heart containers, so I feel that a 100% La-Mulana run should collect all Sacred Orbs.
The situation surrounding maps is also pretty similar to Zelda games, in that they are optional navigational aids hidden in easily accessible chests. Zelda runs don't collect maps and compasses, so I feel it shouldn't be mandatory for La-Mulana either.
Hidden chests with bombs and money, there's plenty of those in Zelda games, and they're optional in 100% runs. Since there's no obvious indication of one working towards finding all hidden chests through some in-game indicator, I feel they can be skipped in La-Mulana as well.
Collecting all e-mails seems similar to something like collecting all tutorial prompts in some other game. Seems silly to me.
Hell Temple is a bit of a unique situation, I suppose. Including it would definitely be an interesting addition to the run over an any% speedrun though. On the other hand, it does exist outside of the main game pretty much entirely, as it was added at a later date as a DLC of sorts. I'm unsure on this one, though I'd lean towards including it for the sake of entertainment.
The only thing the maps, e-mails and hidden chests have going for them are the characters in the game's ending sequence. Given the above, I would either include none of these or all of them.
Regarding inventory items, Link to the Past completes the inventory screen, but does not bother with intermediary upgrades to certain items. When applied to La-Mulana, taking this approach would mean one would be allowed to skip the Chain Whip, the Buckler and the Silver Shield. Software seems similar to items, in that you're clearly working towards filling up an inventory screen of sorts, so those should be collected as well.
Regarding health upgrades, 100% runs of Zelda games appear to always collect all heart containers, so I feel that a 100% La-Mulana run should collect all Sacred Orbs.
The situation surrounding maps is also pretty similar to Zelda games, in that they are optional navigational aids hidden in easily accessible chests. Zelda runs don't collect maps and compasses, so I feel it shouldn't be mandatory for La-Mulana either.
Hidden chests with bombs and money, there's plenty of those in Zelda games, and they're optional in 100% runs. Since there's no obvious indication of one working towards finding all hidden chests through some in-game indicator, I feel they can be skipped in La-Mulana as well.
Collecting all e-mails seems similar to something like collecting all tutorial prompts in some other game. Seems silly to me.
Hell Temple is a bit of a unique situation, I suppose. Including it would definitely be an interesting addition to the run over an any% speedrun though. On the other hand, it does exist outside of the main game pretty much entirely, as it was added at a later date as a DLC of sorts. I'm unsure on this one, though I'd lean towards including it for the sake of entertainment.
The only thing the maps, e-mails and hidden chests have going for them are the characters in the game's ending sequence. Given the above, I would either include none of these or all of them.
I really like the argument you made. Likewise, 100% runs of Super Metroid don't include visiting map rooms to get the data (though SM is a bit of an aside, since the % completion rate is actually in the game and wholly tied to item collection). It would be patently absurd in ALTTP to turn over every pot or stash of rupees, so secret money/bomb chests in La-Mulana fall in a similar vein.
On the basis of the maps/compass, I would hold that maps wouldn't be included either. Likewise to your suggestion at the end, If we are going to include one, then I would be inclined to agree that we would need to include all of them, and stick to the all characters ending as the 100% definition.
If we're not including those things though, that still leaves the question of Hell Temple. On the one hand, we're not including all of the extra puzzles like the permanent lighting of the chamber of extinction, so there's definitely precedent for not including it. The other hand, it's certainly got entertainment value, you are fighting one major/moderate level boss that isn't otherwise included in the run (this point could go in either direction though).
In the end, it's not really that difficult or time consuming (or at least it shouldn't be with an appropriate amount of practice). I did a trial run of it the other night, and while taking a meandering trek rediscovering the place since I haven't played it in months, and where I made some technical errors going through it, the whole thing took a little over 34 minutes. Once I have it practiced, I don't think a reasonable run through it will take more than 30.
On the basis of the maps/compass, I would hold that maps wouldn't be included either. Likewise to your suggestion at the end, If we are going to include one, then I would be inclined to agree that we would need to include all of them, and stick to the all characters ending as the 100% definition.
If we're not including those things though, that still leaves the question of Hell Temple. On the one hand, we're not including all of the extra puzzles like the permanent lighting of the chamber of extinction, so there's definitely precedent for not including it. The other hand, it's certainly got entertainment value, you are fighting one major/moderate level boss that isn't otherwise included in the run (this point could go in either direction though).
In the end, it's not really that difficult or time consuming (or at least it shouldn't be with an appropriate amount of practice). I did a trial run of it the other night, and while taking a meandering trek rediscovering the place since I haven't played it in months, and where I made some technical errors going through it, the whole thing took a little over 34 minutes. Once I have it practiced, I don't think a reasonable run through it will take more than 30.
Howdy all!
Earlier today SpootyBiscuit on the La-Mulana mirc chat on SRL drew my attention to a run on YouTube - it's a 1:47:50 by a runner going by the moniker Naruminhai. For some reason my links are breaking here, but it's not hard to find. It's a substantially different route, and includes some pretty awesome new tech - absolutely worth watching. Happy hunting!
Earlier today SpootyBiscuit on the La-Mulana mirc chat on SRL drew my attention to a run on YouTube - it's a 1:47:50 by a runner going by the moniker Naruminhai. For some reason my links are breaking here, but it's not hard to find. It's a substantially different route, and includes some pretty awesome new tech - absolutely worth watching. Happy hunting!
as far as i know you need the claw for the doll.
Well I have the first hour or so down, but I don't know if the route is ideal or not. Been watching AGDQ for the last few days so haven't been getting practice in near enough. I can't get enough weights before I enter the temple consistently though, it's at the beginning so resetting is nothing but would be nice if anyone knew a way to get the birds to drop weights. I saw a video from th3schwartz at http://www.twitch.tv/th3schwartz/c/3431434 of a 100% inventory. Trying to figure out if this is optimum versus modifying the pastebin that has been posted earlier.
Well I have the first hour or so down, but I don't know if the route is ideal or not. Been watching AGDQ for the last few days so haven't been getting practice in near enough. I can't get enough weights before I enter the temple consistently though, it's at the beginning so resetting is nothing but would be nice if anyone knew a way to get the birds to drop weights. I saw a video from th3schwartz at http://www.twitch.tv/th3schwartz/c/3431434 of a 100% inventory. Trying to figure out if this is optimum versus modifying the pastebin that has been posted earlier.
Otherwise known as Sake__
Hey everyone. About to start running this game in any%, and I'm wondering on the current route. How optimized do we think it is? I was planning on just following HiddenDistance's route until I get a hold on a general sense of the (or a) route.
So basically my question is which route is currently used for any%? And is the version used still 1.3.3?
So basically my question is which route is currently used for any%? And is the version used still 1.3.3?
Hi guys, new speedrunner here. I chose La-Mulana remake as my first game to run as it's one of my favourites.
I'm really new to this so I'm not really sure how to gauge how "good" a route is right now-- is that recent route by Naruminhai the most optimal or is that time just a result of excellent execution? I've been following HiddenDistance's route and so far I've learned almost up to Bahamut, and it seems pretty good. I'm also currently running on 1.5.5.2, so I'm wondering if that has any effect on how optimised the two routes are.
Thanks in advance for answers, guys! I'm really glad to be getting into this community.
I'm really new to this so I'm not really sure how to gauge how "good" a route is right now-- is that recent route by Naruminhai the most optimal or is that time just a result of excellent execution? I've been following HiddenDistance's route and so far I've learned almost up to Bahamut, and it seems pretty good. I'm also currently running on 1.5.5.2, so I'm wondering if that has any effect on how optimised the two routes are.
Thanks in advance for answers, guys! I'm really glad to be getting into this community.
Hey guys!
Been a while since I've been in this thread so I'll see if I can help answer your questions.
Laqr: Optimization.. I think the route that I was previously using (1:58) using the strats that were available at the time was pretty good. That said, it's a bit of a moot point now, since there are some additional tech (routing aside) that definitely cuts out a few minutes. As for what's currently used for Any%... I think it's a bit up in the air. Naruminhai uses the later version of the game, which means they miss out on some benefits that you get from using 1.3.3.1 (which is the version I still use). There's a couple of places in that run where I feel doing things in a different order or doing things differently altogether would result in better gains.
For example, Naruminhai skips the sacred orb at the beginning of the gate of guidance. This does save a few seconds, but I note that later in their run, they get an extra lamp of time charge to use in fighting the charging bull sub-boss in the Dimensional Corridor - this costs a substantial amount of time - 40 seconds total, with 10 of those seconds being the actual lamp usage. It doesn't take me collectively 40 seconds to fight the boss and pick up the extra orb - which the extra health helps me stay a little safer in that fight (and in other parts of the run where I can play potentially riskier/faster). At this point, I think the tech additions and route changes that are definitely improvements that Naruminhai brought to the table are not quite optimized - but we'll have to see. I've been out of the picture a few weeks with sickness/injury, but I'll be looking to try out the new route + some changes I made to that route to see how it lands out. Really not looking forward to the key fairy.. probably going to be a lot of resetting, but that's how it goes.
ManekiNeko3: The route by Naruminhai is certainly more optimal then the old any% route I was running. It cuts out big chunks of the game with the new tech (notably: lower tower of ruin, some of the mantras) and is pretty tight in other areas. Some places.. I think it can be improved. Again - for another example - Naruminhai leaves the gloves/flares until after they fight Bahamut - now this means they don't have to backtrack for the gloves, but because they don't go through the inferno cavern when they get the isis pendant, they have to backtrack there. Also - when you're fighting Bahamut, the optimal damage/pattern at the moment involves flare usage. Bahamut has 42 health, so you can divvy that up with 8 axe hits and two flares - otherwise, you need the 9th axe hit. Doesn't seem like a big deal, but it could be the difference between having a perfect fight and waiting on corn pops - and that's a substantial potential time loss.
On the whole with regards to 1.5.5.2 or 1.3.3.1 (or any version that contains the early flail whip via grapple claw glitch), I think 1.3.3.1 is superior as far as game version is concerned. Naruminhai does get the flail whip early with the lamp of time tech, but that misses out on several important engagements that could significantly benefit from having the flail whip earlier. For example, the sub bosses in the Tower of the Goddess die easier - Kamaitachi is a *much* easier and way faster fight with the flail whip. It's not uncommon to kill it in a single cycle, whereas in Naruminhai's run, they spend quite a bit of time there with the axe, and spends pistol ammo (I don't blame them either, Kamaitachi does tons of damage). Also - having the flail whip earlier means a one-cycle Sakit fight. One punch and the mask comes off. Not only makes it a faster fight, but puts you less at mercy for the walking/shooting RNG. Additionally, since 1.3.3.1 doesn't have to use a lamp charge opening up the flail whip, you can instead use it on the flying sub-boss in Gate of Illusion (the ten seconds to fight with the lamp is comparable to the time Naruminhai spends fighting it without the lamp, though you do sink an extra 5 seconds climbing up the ladder again). Since the pistol rounds aren't used there, it does mean that you can still spend 4 shots on Baphomet, which I'd feel is still superior to using chakrams because of the range and speed - ending that second phase quickly can save a lot of time.
Glad to have more people on board in the community! There's also a channel we have open on the SRL irc server under #la-mulana where some of the runners hang out.
Oh, and I think the claw is a required item - if you can find another way to get the woman statue without it, then we could probably get away with not getting it. There's lots of places I can think of using it during a run, but most of them just save time or make you look super cool, I can't think of another that requires its use to finish the game.
And to wrap this one up since it's already pretty long - Nigoro has announced their kickstarter for La-Mulana 2! http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/playism/la-mulana-2
As of my posting this message it's already busted the 30K mark of their $200,000 goal, so if you're keen on pledging or just picking up the game in advance, head on over there & give them your support!
Been a while since I've been in this thread so I'll see if I can help answer your questions.
Laqr: Optimization.. I think the route that I was previously using (1:58) using the strats that were available at the time was pretty good. That said, it's a bit of a moot point now, since there are some additional tech (routing aside) that definitely cuts out a few minutes. As for what's currently used for Any%... I think it's a bit up in the air. Naruminhai uses the later version of the game, which means they miss out on some benefits that you get from using 1.3.3.1 (which is the version I still use). There's a couple of places in that run where I feel doing things in a different order or doing things differently altogether would result in better gains.
For example, Naruminhai skips the sacred orb at the beginning of the gate of guidance. This does save a few seconds, but I note that later in their run, they get an extra lamp of time charge to use in fighting the charging bull sub-boss in the Dimensional Corridor - this costs a substantial amount of time - 40 seconds total, with 10 of those seconds being the actual lamp usage. It doesn't take me collectively 40 seconds to fight the boss and pick up the extra orb - which the extra health helps me stay a little safer in that fight (and in other parts of the run where I can play potentially riskier/faster). At this point, I think the tech additions and route changes that are definitely improvements that Naruminhai brought to the table are not quite optimized - but we'll have to see. I've been out of the picture a few weeks with sickness/injury, but I'll be looking to try out the new route + some changes I made to that route to see how it lands out. Really not looking forward to the key fairy.. probably going to be a lot of resetting, but that's how it goes.
ManekiNeko3: The route by Naruminhai is certainly more optimal then the old any% route I was running. It cuts out big chunks of the game with the new tech (notably: lower tower of ruin, some of the mantras) and is pretty tight in other areas. Some places.. I think it can be improved. Again - for another example - Naruminhai leaves the gloves/flares until after they fight Bahamut - now this means they don't have to backtrack for the gloves, but because they don't go through the inferno cavern when they get the isis pendant, they have to backtrack there. Also - when you're fighting Bahamut, the optimal damage/pattern at the moment involves flare usage. Bahamut has 42 health, so you can divvy that up with 8 axe hits and two flares - otherwise, you need the 9th axe hit. Doesn't seem like a big deal, but it could be the difference between having a perfect fight and waiting on corn pops - and that's a substantial potential time loss.
On the whole with regards to 1.5.5.2 or 1.3.3.1 (or any version that contains the early flail whip via grapple claw glitch), I think 1.3.3.1 is superior as far as game version is concerned. Naruminhai does get the flail whip early with the lamp of time tech, but that misses out on several important engagements that could significantly benefit from having the flail whip earlier. For example, the sub bosses in the Tower of the Goddess die easier - Kamaitachi is a *much* easier and way faster fight with the flail whip. It's not uncommon to kill it in a single cycle, whereas in Naruminhai's run, they spend quite a bit of time there with the axe, and spends pistol ammo (I don't blame them either, Kamaitachi does tons of damage). Also - having the flail whip earlier means a one-cycle Sakit fight. One punch and the mask comes off. Not only makes it a faster fight, but puts you less at mercy for the walking/shooting RNG. Additionally, since 1.3.3.1 doesn't have to use a lamp charge opening up the flail whip, you can instead use it on the flying sub-boss in Gate of Illusion (the ten seconds to fight with the lamp is comparable to the time Naruminhai spends fighting it without the lamp, though you do sink an extra 5 seconds climbing up the ladder again). Since the pistol rounds aren't used there, it does mean that you can still spend 4 shots on Baphomet, which I'd feel is still superior to using chakrams because of the range and speed - ending that second phase quickly can save a lot of time.
Glad to have more people on board in the community! There's also a channel we have open on the SRL irc server under #la-mulana where some of the runners hang out.
Oh, and I think the claw is a required item - if you can find another way to get the woman statue without it, then we could probably get away with not getting it. There's lots of places I can think of using it during a run, but most of them just save time or make you look super cool, I can't think of another that requires its use to finish the game.
And to wrap this one up since it's already pretty long - Nigoro has announced their kickstarter for La-Mulana 2! http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/playism/la-mulana-2
As of my posting this message it's already busted the 30K mark of their $200,000 goal, so if you're keen on pledging or just picking up the game in advance, head on over there & give them your support!
Metroidvanias are God Tier
In regards to the 100% discussion I disagree. Getting all characters in the ending should be 100%. If 100% inventory is defined as 100% then what is an all character playthrough defined as. Getting all characters actually requires a bit of effort in the route planning and run to warrant another category because it requires hard mode to pull off along with plenty of time sunk into emails and hidden chests. There is no reason to have two different category's for this. It just makes it hard for SDA to categorize which run is which.
It's time for some HEErooooOOOOHi cs!
So, on my first day back playing the original after at least a year away, I was doing some re-routing watching the single segment record. I dabbled a bit in trying the TAS corner boosts, and while I couldn't manipulate the lizard or the bats to boost me to do the pepper/treasure/anchor skip, I found another method that's only a slight bit slower, but would still save IMMENSE time in a single segment. It is also semi-consistent and relatively easy to pull off:
I'm hoping to log all the possible corner boosts that are able to be done in real time with consistency and heavily alter the single segment route for the original. Oh and...it's damn good to be back, I missed this game and I missed this excitement!
I'm hoping to log all the possible corner boosts that are able to be done in real time with consistency and heavily alter the single segment route for the original. Oh and...it's damn good to be back, I missed this game and I missed this excitement!
Anonymous52555, two things, first of all, due to a glitch it is technically impossible to get all characters in the ending, second, some of us feel that doing things such as waiting in an area for no reason just to get an e-mail is boring and shouldn't be part of the run. Yes, all characters is a completely different category than 100% inventory, we don't dispute that. Some of us are simply choosing to run 100% inventory because we find it more fun and think it would be more enjoyable to watch than all characters. We are not trying to define 100%, we are making a distinction on categories...namely, any%, 100% inventory, 100% inventory (hard mode), and All Characters so far unless i missed something. unless someone wants to do low%...