La-Mulana

2011-04-09 10:22:52 pm

Break through the final confusion

BlueGlass, I was actually JUST about to suggest that on my last post, when I realized that since he doesn't have the Grail, he can't get out of the pit... Sad

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-04-09 11:12:36 pm

2011-04-09 11:10:10 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Quote from BlueGlass:

Looking at that items screen, and if we count all items to be equal, would it be possible to skip the mini-doll by spearing what's-his-name after getting a life crystal? I would test it myself, but I temporarily don't have access to the game. On a closely related note, no one's said anything either way about my route change idea of doing this in an any%

Um that doesn't work for me. How do expect me to get out lol.

BlueGlass

2011-04-10 05:25:49 am

Yep yep yep!

Hmm... I don't know how much damage the spikes do, but maybe it's possible to survive long enough to kill the mini-boss even without a life crystal. I doubt it, but it's still worth testing, since you can then replace the mini-doll with the grail.

Also, something I forgot to respond to in my last post, I think I remember the time lamp freezing the teleporting horse in dimensional corridor.

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-04-10 12:05:12 pm

Anonymous52555: 2011-04-10 10:35:02 am

Anonymous52555: 2011-04-10 10:18:06 am

2011-04-10 10:17:42 am

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Hmm. I suppose I could do that, after testing I could survive it. But doing that doesn't feel like a minimalist. Something that I thought about while I was on my way was about the silver shield and the angel shield. Does that mean I can just get the angel shield and not get the silver shield. Because if we do count every thing as the same I could but now does it really feel like low items anymore?

Perhaps the main reason I don't like this is because I wanted to do this run for the simple fact of having no life crystals, no grail, no upgrades, no armor, and no MSX2.

I don't know. What do you guys think?

Also yeah the teleporting enemy does get frozen by the lamp.

Edit: here's an idea, what if I do two runs. A grailless run and a grail run?

BlueGlass

2011-04-10 12:33:16 pm

Yep yep yep!

Thinking about it from a viewer's perspective, a no-grail run would probably be pretty boring, considering that it would be probably well over an hour of walking back and forth between areas. A run skipping the mini-doll would be every bit as impressive, without all that extra time. If you want to do two runs, feel free, but I doubt a grailless run would be hosted on SDA, unless it gets counted as a separate category.

Which is actually quite possible, come to think of it, given the huge difference between the two.

Anonymous52555

2011-04-10 12:46:52 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Yeah I was thinking it would be counted as a different category. I can't really think of parts where there would be too much walking other than the Crystal Skull quest and the Mini Doll quest. Even though after thinking it over, the grailless run is more of a self accomplishment that I have already completed and don't really need to do again. So I will work on the run with the mini doll since it was be so much faster and maybe someday I will do a run without the grail.

Ok now that everything is cleared up, It is time to start planning.

BlueGlass

2011-04-10 09:53:28 pm

Yep yep yep!

Just thinking theoretically, for the beginning of the game, I'd say head to twin labyrinths to buy the helmet immediately after the grail, making sure to kill lots of enemies on the way, grab the ankh jewel, and buy 5-10 weights, warp out, get the glyph reader and hand scanner, then go to spring in the sky for the scalesphere, grab the gloves on the way to flood sun temple, then get the guidance gate and sun temple ankh jewels, the knife, boots, and extinction chamber grail point all in one trip.

Then head to inferno cavern, getting the flare gun and grail point, grab 30 flares from extinction chamber and sun temple, fight Bahamut and Elmac, get the axe, pepper, and ice cape, pop back to inferno cavern for the claw, take the life seal, nab the treasure and kill Amphis, take the serpent staff then head back to confusion gate and open the path connecting it to guidance gate (weights might be a problem here, since you don't have the 20 from the surface, maybe buy another set earlier? I'll have to count out weight usage).

Next flare Algol for the feather, then kill Sakit, hit the endless corridor grail point, enter graveyard through mausoleum, head to tower of ruin for the spears and first Viy switch, kill Shu and get the endless key, open twin labyrinths, activate its grail point, and collect the ankh jewel, before heading for the second Viy switch, then straight up the ladder into twin labyrinths, buy the dragon bone and time lamp.

Then kill Viy, climb tower of the goddess for bombs, grab the woman statue, and of it takes long enough for the time lamp to recharge, head to the upper part of confusion gate for the flywheel, blow up Baphomet, finish the woman statue puzzle, do the lower part of chamber of birth, take the talisman and enter chamber of extinction through the upper sun temple entrance (this could be used in any% too).

From here on, fight Palenque and do shrine of the mother and dimensional corridor as normal, for the wedge and third and fourth mantras, the fastest way there would be mausoleum->graveyard->birth, for twin labyrinths, some testing is needed to find the fastest way, whether it's warping to its grail point or oing sun->inferno->labyrinths.

Whew, I just spent over two hours typing all this up, so I hope it's useful in your planning.

Just thinking theoretically, for the beginning of the game, I'd say head to twin labyrinths to buy the helmet immediately after the grail, making sure to kill lots of enemies on the way, grab the ankh jewel, and buy 5-10 weights, warp out, get the glyph reader and hand scanner, then go to spring in the sky for the scalesphere, grab the gloves on the way to flood sun temple, then get the guidance gate and sun temple ankh jewels, the knife, boots, and extinction chamber grail point all in one trip.

Then head to inferno cavern, getting the flare gun and grail point, grab 30 flares from extinction chamber and sun temple, fight Bahamut and Elmac, get the axe, pepper, and ice cape, pop back to inferno cavern for the claw, take the life seal, nab the treasure and kill Amphis, take the serpent staff then head back to confusion gate and open the path connecting it to guidance gate (weights might be a problem here, since you don't have the 20 from the surface, maybe buy another set earlier?  I'll have to count out weight usage).

Next flare Algol for the feather, then kill Sakit, hit the endless corridor grail point, enter graveyard through mausoleum, head to tower of ruin for the spears and first Viy switch, kill Shu and get the endless key, open twin labyrinths, activate its grail point, and collect the ankh jewel, before heading for the second Viy switch, then straight up the ladder into twin labyrinths, buy the dragon bone and time lamp.

Then kill Viy, climb tower of the goddess for bombs, grab the woman statue, and of it takes long enough for the time lamp to recharge, head to the upper part of confusion gate for the flywheel, blow up Baphomet, finish the woman statue puzzle, do the lower part of chamber of birth, take the talisman and enter chamber of extinction through the upper sun temple entrance (this could be used in any% too).

From here on, fight Palenque and do shrine of the mother and dimensional corridor as normal, for the wedge and third and fourth mantras, the fastest way there would be mausoleum->graveyard->birth, for twin labyrinths, some testing is needed to find the fastest way, whether it's warping to its grail point or oing sun->inferno->labyrinths.

Whew, I just spent over two hours typing all this up, so I hope it's useful in your planning.

Anonymous52555

2011-04-10 11:11:08 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

I would add going to the temple of the sun before the Mausoleum. This is for 2 reasons. Getting the knife and getting puzzles out of the way.

For the first segment I'll be doing basically what you said (with the temple of the sun). And I will end the segment after I get the scale sphere go down get the grail point for area 4, warp back to the surface and save.

Segment 2 will be finishing off the spring in the sky, killing Bahamut, and getting the birth seal.

I'll start experimenting with the rest of your notes later.

Also the reason I'm getting the knife is because it does more damage than the whip, attacks faster than the whip(breaking pots) and will overall let me take less damage.

Also EXP is no problem for segment 1. In practice I've actually been almost going over the exp bar before dieing in the Twin Labyrinth Sad

BlueGlass

2011-04-10 11:33:32 pm

Yep yep yep!

If you're doing sun first, then I'd recommend grabbing every coin pot, including the one to the far left on the surface. That way, you can buy a weight set from the shop in sun, warp to the surface, and still have just enough for the hand scanner and glyph reader, meaning you can activate the guidance gate and mausoleum grail points your first time through. If you need a second weight set, you can buy it from the spring in the sky shop on the way down to the grail point.

Also, you should really consider using flares on Bahamut, especially since you're not so limited for them early on like Jman was. I once two-rounded him when he breathed fire followed by spitting the yellow balls.

Finally, not sure if you found this or not, but since you're starting segment 2 with spring in the sky, it's faster to take the ladder down from the grail point and get damage boosted by a bat, I think.

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-04-11 06:14:39 am

Anonymous52555: 2011-04-11 06:14:02 am

2011-04-11 06:02:25 am

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Um I am one coin put short for your strategy. I guess I could get all three coin pots on the surface.

I'll defiantly try mixing flares and shurikens on Bahamut. I probably won't accept a segment where he isn't 2 rounded

Alright so here is the plan for segment 2. I first do the water puzzle to get the boots, after I have the boots I go hit the grail point for the chamber of extinction. Go back to the temple of the sun. Get a coin pot and the flares and hit the grail point before going back to the extinction chamber where I get 3 sets of flares, go to the surface and save.

Segment three will just be Bahamut.

Also for you last suggestion its still not faster, timed it and the droping from the second water fall is a couple seconds faster

edit: and edit to segment 2 route, after I get the 3 flares in the extinction chamber, I will teleport to the temple of the sun, pick up a flare pot then go the surface (need flares for Viy)

BlueGlass

2011-04-11 06:28:46 am

Yep yep yep!

Oh right, those amounts were ignoring the 10 coins for game master. If you wait to pick that up until the end of the segment, you should be fine.

I don't see what you need so many flares for so early, especially since if you ever do need more, the twenty in extinction chamber are available in every segment. That lower set of flares takes a good several seconds to grab each time, so skip it unless you really feel it's needed.

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-04-11 06:36:28 am

2011-04-11 06:33:48 am

Metroidvanias are God Tier

I'm more worried about not having enough flares for the Dimensional Corridor, I was planning on abusing flares on most of the sub bosses.

Edit also I went and counted the number of coin pots and there is 3 on the surface, 6 in the guidance gate, and 5 in the temple of the sun. This adds up to 140 coins. Which is good for a hand scanner, glyph reader and a bag of weights. So I still need to get all three on the surface.

BlueGlass

2011-04-11 06:44:54 am

Yep yep yep!

Dimensional corridor is still a ways off at this point, and flare pots become much more common later on. I don't think you need to worry about farming flares this early on.

And you're missing a coin pot in sun temple. There's the one in the first room, the one after the knife, the one in the room before the ankh jewel, the one above the boss room, the one in the room with the shop, and the one in the pyramid.

Anonymous52555

2011-04-11 06:47:41 am

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Oh I forgot about the one before the ankh even though when playing through I always remember it. Thanks for clearing that up. Also yeah I won't farm for flares too early on. Bahamut has only 60 hp so 15 flares will do him in.

BlueGlass

Edit history:

BlueGlass: 2011-04-11 07:00:08 am

2011-04-11 06:57:16 am

Yep yep yep!

15? I wonder if a one-round would be possible, though maybe only with the ring, feather, and health to jump straight into his face.

Speaking of using flares against enemies, Algol takes nine, and I've occasionally finished him before his second set of steps. Just to make a list, Amphis is 14? Elmac is 12, and Viy 20 iirc

edit: thinking way ahead, flares are probably the fastest way to do the second part of Nu Wa. Line him up, then walk forward slowly while firing, and he goes down even faster than normal.

Anonymous52555

2011-04-11 07:01:44 am

Metroidvanias are God Tier

I believe Amphis only takes 13. And Viy should only take 18 since flares do that same damage as throwing knives. I'll try to one round him. Nu Wa might be better with flares, Heck better to try that then my Katana Strategy. Also just for future note, Nu Wa is a female.

BlueGlass

2011-04-11 07:07:14 am

Yep yep yep!

Oh yeah, it is 13, 50 hp. And sorry about the mixup on Nu Wa, it's been forever since I read those tablets.

Anonymous52555

2011-04-11 07:58:46 am

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Ok so after testing I can only take 16 damage before the spring in the sky if I am to survive the water trick.(starting health is 32) And that room with the grail and the room below that room are probably the worst rooms in the game when it comes to not taking damage. So I have to bank on the Tsaochih not screwing me over in the twin labyrinth. Also the Leapers and the Hedge (which do 3 damage) seem to think its funny to hit me a bunch of times in one room. Hopefully I can get a test save soon so I can atleast get to testing other stuff.

BlueGlass

2011-04-11 08:24:47 am

Yep yep yep!

Wow, you actually took the time to learn all the enemy names? Impressive. I had to check the wiki to figure out which ones you were talking about. I usually think of them as red bouncy things, light-blue jumping things, and hedgehogs.

That said, if you're getting hit too often, you could take things a bit more slowly, though I don't see how you're getting hit by Hedges, they have predictable movement patterns and die to a single knife.

Anonymous52555

2011-04-11 08:32:38 am

Metroidvanias are God Tier

I'm knifing them one frame too late is what I think is happening. But in the temple of the sun temple, It was just going back and fourth and I just couldn't hit them, they are so annoying and they shouldn't be.

BlueGlass

2011-04-11 11:28:15 am

Yep yep yep!

Moving on to a different topic, what are you planning on doing as far as coins go? After the first segment, the only money you'll absolutely need is the 550 for things in twin labyrinth, and the 120 for area 6 ankh jewel, with possibly another 20 for weights. That's 690 coins, with a lot of 100 coin pots still scattered around: confusion gate, graveyard of giants, extinction chamber, endless corridor, and the 200 on the surface. In short, there's no real reason to go for even slightly-out-of-the-way coins, which is something to keep in mind when planning your route.

UltraJMan

Edit history:

UltraJMan: 2011-04-11 12:25:56 pm

UltraJMan: 2011-04-11 12:23:29 pm

2011-04-11 11:55:54 am

It's time for some HEErooooOOOOHi cs!

Btw, I second doing Hell Temple and at least grabbing the crappy chain whip cause it involves a boss fight. It doesn't feel like a true 100% without showing off the entire game, maps and optional items included. I really think you should do it.

Oh PS: Expect a new run from me in the following month or two. I'm testing a few of BlueGlass's strats, some are faster, some are just massive problems *flare Bahamut was a great idea, but flare Viy later is a much more effecient time saver even if I have a 50% chance of the run ending right there* With everything picked up from posts and Anon, a sub 2:20:00 or closer should be possible, obviously with some stupidly good luck on more then one occasion *lizard and Viy can kill so much time, I already know it*

Soon as I finish the planning phases I'll maybe repost the full new route here, more then likely my run notes won't be near as detailed this time either, just giving the basics. Naturally it'll still be SS, no other way to play this game for an any% run heh. There MAY be a single save load seeing as how it's allowed for a few games, the one in question would be at the giant bat miniboss, after opening the ladder I'd save load to regain my time stop ability and entirely eliminate the risk of him moving, doubting this though as with good luck it's faster to just kill him right out.

Btw, I second doing Hell Temple and at least grabbing the crappy chain whip cause it involves a boss fight. It doesn't feel like a true 100% without showing off the entire game, maps and optional items included. I really think you should do it.

Oh PS: Expect a new run from me in the following month or two. I'm testing a few of BlueGlass's strats, some are faster, some are just massive problems *flare Bahamut was a great idea, but flare Viy later is a much more effecient time saver even if I have a 50% chance of the run ending right there* With everything picked up from posts and Anon, a sub 2:20:00 or closer should be possible, obviously with some stupidly good luck on more then one occasion *lizard and Viy can kill so much time, I already know it*

Soon as I finish the planning phases I'll maybe repost the full new route here, more then likely my run notes won't be near as detailed this time either, just giving the basics. Naturally it'll still be SS, no other way to play this game for an any% run heh. There MAY be a single save load seeing as how it's allowed for a few games, the one in question would be at the giant bat miniboss, after opening the ladder I'd save load to regain my time stop ability and entirely eliminate the risk of him moving, doubting this though as with good luck it's faster to just kill him right out.

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-04-11 12:31:21 pm

Anonymous52555: 2011-04-11 12:30:38 pm

2011-04-11 12:22:03 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Quote from BlueGlass:

Moving on to a different topic, what are you planning on doing as far as coins go? After the first segment, the only money you'll absolutely need is the 550 for things in twin labyrinth, and the 120 for area 6 ankh jewel, with possibly another 20 for weights. That's 690 coins, with a lot of 100 coin pots still scattered around: confusion gate, graveyard of giants, extinction chamber, endless corridor, and the 200 on the surface. In short, there's no real reason to go for even slightly-out-of-the-way coins, which is something to keep in mind when planning your route.

Well I will end segment 1 with 60 coins plus the 600 coins for 100 coin jars which will add up to 660. Then I will most likely just grab the 30 coin pot next time I pass by it. So I will never even have to go any distance out of my way for a 10 coin pot.

Edit: I'm going to need about 60 spears for the whole run. 30 for shu, 20 for Viy and about 10 for Palenque. And maybe 10 more just for the insurance. Also basically right now I want to plan out how much of each sub weapon I am going to need.

[quote="BlueGlass"]Moving on to a different topic, what are you planning on doing as far as coins go?  After the first segment, the only money you'll absolutely need is the 550 for things in twin labyrinth, and the 120 for area 6 ankh jewel, with possibly another 20 for weights.  That's 690 coins, with a lot of 100 coin pots still scattered around: confusion gate, graveyard of giants, extinction chamber, endless corridor, and the 200 on the surface.  In short, there's no real reason to go for even slightly-out-of-the-way coins, which is something to keep in mind when planning your route.[/quote]
Well I will end segment 1 with 60 coins plus the 600 coins for 100 coin jars which will add up to 660. Then I will most likely just grab the 30 coin pot next time I pass by it. So I will never even have to go any distance out of my way for a 10 coin pot.

Edit: I'm going to need about 60 spears for the whole run. 30  for shu, 20 for Viy and about 10 for Palenque. And maybe 10 more just for the insurance. Also basically right now I want to plan out how much of each sub weapon I am going to need.

BlueGlass

2011-04-11 03:23:57 pm

Yep yep yep!

Anon: Planning out all the sub-weapons? That'll be a chore, especially since you have minibosses like Kamaitachi to deal with. And be sure not to forget sub-weapon uses outside of battle, like speeding up the sun-moon-star puzzle in mausoleum of giants.

Jman: Working on a new run already? Awesome, I'm definitely looking forward to it. Once you have your route posted, I'll take a look at it and see if I can find any any potential improvements; no offense, but your path through twin labyrinth is slow. I'll also mention any minor timesavers I know about that weren't in your posted run or the marathon. BTW, I was the one who donated in hopes of a no-damage Mother 3, though funnily enough Ustream froze up for me right at the start of phase 2, leaving me with just sound.

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-04-11 03:39:52 pm

Anonymous52555: 2011-04-11 03:39:35 pm

2011-04-11 03:38:40 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Oops forgot to edit that. I meant just planning out bombs and spears. But I think I'm getting a bit ahead of myself. I've died/lost too much health in the twin labyrinth 12 times now and its really starting to tick me off, the leapers bats and that mask man that decided to climb down the effing ladder are really starting to tick me off. I'll post again when I have gotten to the first save.

Edit: you can see Jman's run here:

Skip to towards the end for the 3rd phase.