La-Mulana

2013-02-27 01:02:05 am

Break through the final confusion

Ah, thanks Solairflaire! Yeah, like I mentioned in my comments, I basically found that if I had a good segment up until that point, the worm was going to give me a bad route GUARANTEED. And yeah, I was surprised at the time how well I handled it, since it usually doesn't go that well! Smiley

One of the many things at the time that were telling me that this was finally the segment that would work out.

Yeah, I've realized Bombs is definitely the main advantage a segmented run (ESPECIALLY a 100% run) has to an SS, above all else. Well, that and not having to worry about life so I can just knock myself all over the place. Smiley

It definitely helped a lot here.

And yeah, I totally understand the need to write lots of comments, believe me... Smiley

Fragmaster01

Edit history:

Fragmaster01: 2013-02-27 09:22:02 am

Fragmaster01: 2013-02-27 09:21:49 am

Fragmaster01: 2013-02-27 09:21:27 am

2013-02-27 09:20:52 am

Wiggle wiggle

Quote from TheMaxican:

Ah, thanks Solairflaire! Yeah, like I mentioned in my comments, I basically found that if I had a good segment up until that point, the worm was going to give me a bad route GUARANTEED. And yeah, I was surprised at the time how well I handled it, since it usually doesn't go that well! Smiley

One of the many things at the time that were telling me that this was finally the segment that would work out.

Yeah, I've realized Bombs is definitely the main advantage a segmented run (ESPECIALLY a 100% run) has to an SS, above all else. Well, that and not having to worry about life so I can just knock myself all over the place. Smiley

It definitely helped a lot here.

And yeah, I totally understand the need to write lots of comments, believe me... Smiley

So, you like the worm huh? You like to ride the worm, huh? I let you ride the worm!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP7VTeTCVCU&feature=relmfu#t=8m05s

But yes, fabulous segment. Additional entertainment value for the worm eating himself.

[quote="TheMaxican"]Ah, thanks Solairflaire! Yeah, like I mentioned in my comments, I basically found that if I had a good segment up until that point, the worm was going to give me a bad route GUARANTEED. And yeah, I was surprised at the time how well I handled it, since it usually doesn't go that well! :) One of the many things at the time that were telling me that this was finally the segment that would work out.

Yeah, I've realized Bombs is definitely the main advantage a segmented run (ESPECIALLY a 100% run) has to an SS, above all else. Well, that and not having to worry about life so I can just knock myself all over the place. :) It definitely helped a lot here.

And yeah, I totally understand the need to write lots of comments, believe me... :)[/quote]
So, you like the worm huh? You like to ride the worm, huh? I let you ride the worm! [hidden]www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP7VTeTCVCU&feature=relmfu#t=8m05s[/hidden]
But yes, fabulous segment. Additional entertainment value for the worm eating himself.

zem

2013-03-01 05:40:06 pm

Great job, man. I was worried this segment would stop the run, but I should have known better

zem

2013-03-01 11:42:11 pm

Quote from TheMaxican:

So anyway, random thought I had yesterday and I was curious what you all thought. So this next segment is the start of Mantra typing, right? Which is annoying because I can never seem to type them carefully but quickly so that the game takes them the first time.
So what I was THINKING is: what if for every segment, I remap the keys? Nothing too fancy, just move the MARDUK letters over to the QWERTY ones (or something like that) so that I can type the password as optimally as possible.

I have this theory that the reason typing the mantras is so weird is that it only accepts it if you press the keys one at a time, and not if you press a key before releasing the previous one, which we all do all the time because that works on every actual typing operation in the universe. I don't actually know if that's true, or if knowing it would help

BlueGlass

2013-03-02 04:39:58 am

Yep yep yep!

Might be, considering I've never had a problem typing the mantras, and my normal typing method is hunt-and-peck.

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2013-03-03 02:09:12 pm

Anonymous52555: 2013-03-02 04:25:19 pm

2013-03-02 04:24:43 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

I've been playing around with 100% single segment in the remake over the last few days I've test it and gotten it to about 3 hours in game time after 3 attempts which will probably turn into 3:15-3:20 real time. One interesting thing to note is if you talk to Mulbruk with the skimpy swimsuit the battle fairy won't show up in the credits. This is really weird but I guess we just won't have swimsuit Mulbruk in the credits for 100%. The route I came up with myself seems to be pretty good, I remember szsk had a 100% run on twitch but I can't seem to find it. If I recall it was about 3:30 though so I think I'm ahead Cheesy

I'll post the route here later if I get the time to right it up, if not today then tomarrow.

Edit: It's quite long so here is the pastebin of it: http://pastebin.com/GakAVXua

Let me know if you find a place to improve my route.

TheMaxican

2013-03-04 11:13:39 pm

Break through the final confusion

@Fragmaster01: Haha, nice. Smiley

And yeah, that worm really did love that top right corner.

@zem: Haha, yeah, don't worry, I was never intending on giving up. Smiley

And good theory on the keyboard, that actually falls in line with the little experimentation I've done with it so far. Oh well, it sounds like I'll be remapping the keys after all so I'll be able to figure it out a lot easier when I start making attempts (hopefully this weekend!). Thanks!

@Anon: Nice! That's amazing that you can 100% the whole remake in just over 3 hours. Is Hell Temple just not that much longer in the remake? (I wouldn't know, I've only played the WiiWare version, but will probably get the Steam version whenever that comes out, just because.) This also makes me realize that I have NO idea what my final time is going to be, haha... Anyway, cool stuff!

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2013-03-06 10:00:41 am

2013-03-06 09:23:56 am

Metroidvanias are God Tier

The nice thing about the remake is there is a second shortcut before the bridge room and you don't have to leave hell temple for the medicine.

Hell temple takes about 20 minutes of the run. Optimally it would probably be 18 minutes but something that late in the run just won't do for optimal.

Also I got a new time of 2:50 on the in game timer. I need to start recording these though. Also I did some testing with the ingame timer of the remake. I found that the timer is based entirely on frame rate which wasn't too surprising and that the timer is always counting except in the pause menu/grail menu. Because the timer is based on framerate the after boss death animations take a shorter amount of time then what they appear to be in real time. I'm not sure where the huge gap in time is coming from in the any% runs though. I don't think there are 15-30 minutes of menu times coming from warping. So I guess it's just those dropped frames over 2 hours? seems like a lot still.

DeliciousPi

2013-03-06 01:17:54 pm

Yeah, the game time to real time difference is pretty large in the remake. I have a theory that game time does not count screen transition times, but I haven't tried to verify that.

Anonymous52555

2013-03-06 03:02:57 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

That's it! The timer doesn't count transitions from normal rooms. It however counts the transition between areas which is really weird. But I guess that's where there difference comes into play. Actually I think I know why. When you transition screens the game freezes the game as the camera repositions itself and loads in the surrounding areas thus freezing the timer as well. I wonder if this reason for the inaccuracy between ingame time and real time would make the ingame timer be allowed for official timing or if we will have to use real time.

DeliciousPi

2013-03-06 03:28:00 pm

I haven't seen anything would discredit using the in-game timer for the remake (such as the timer being 0:00 if you don't save in the original). We'd need to check and make sure the in game timer is still affected by your play time after the last quicksave before Mother just to be sure.

I've also noticed some inconsistent lag during screen transitions, which can slow down your real time and probably adds up over time. Seems to be much worse if you're running flash for anything.

Anonymous52555

2013-03-06 04:03:58 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

I know the time continues after mother. I made a real save before mother with my timer being at 2:44 and the final result was 2:50 and I know the time is effected the faster as I've never gotten the same time on the same save files.

DeliciousPi

2013-03-08 04:50:12 pm

Here's an improved strategy for remake Thunderbird. In the past I would reset the room until he chose his counter-clockwise movement pattern, but it's possible to kill him with the axe on either pattern if you're quick.
The downside is you get hit for sure if he moves left, which can hurt the amount of health you have to do Viy if you're not lucky enough to get a healing fairy.

It's also possible to hit the Earth Spear switch in 1 cycle after you grab the ankh jewel, but my consistency for doing that is about 1/25 tries (it's super tight and the skeletons can deny you).

BlueGlass

2013-04-23 07:14:31 pm

Yep yep yep!

So, I've been in a La-Mulana mood recently, mostly messing around with the remake.

I also rewatched up to the current segment of Maxican's 100% run. It's closing in on two years since it started now, not counting the time spent routing and planning. While watching, I realized a route change that would save a few seconds: delaying the Twin Labyrinths ankh jewel and map until after getting bombs, to bomb boost down the ladders there; it's a shame no one thought of bomb boosting earlier. Oh well, I'm still really looking forward to the next segment whenever he gets around to it.

With the remake, I found a few more uses for the grapple into walls glitch. Using it in Twin Labyrinths J-2 and C-2 lets you skip both minibosses. And it can also be used in Guidance Gate in the room above Amphis to skipkilling the red skeletons and doing the block pushing puzzle: the glitch can be done with pushable blocks as well, so if you push the first block off the ledge like normal, then go around and push it off another ledge, you can grapple claw straight into Amphis's room.

Also, for the remake low%, the axe can theoretically be skipped; I used to think it (or the knife) was needed for the second part of the Endless Corridor miniboss, but it turns out that part takes 1 damage/hit from any weapon that makes it flash blue (key sword and flail whip both needed 70 hits, didn't test with anything else). Of course, this means I have to restart my low% run, after making it all the way to Baphomet and Tiamat. Also, I checked, and the same logic does not hold true for Anubis w/o Book of the Dead, despite his flashing the same blue.

While likely useless in a speedrun, I also figured out how to climb Tower of the Goddess without the feather. The first room can be passed with precise grapple claw jumps off the left side, the second by either killing a Vimana on its way up or grapple claw -> damage boost (best done with the "medusa heads" that show up there on hard mode, though it's technically possible with just the bats, but good luck on that), and the third by damage boosting with the A Bo A Qu This could theoretically be useful in a 100% run, if you go there early through the Gate of Time, with the hard mode tablet activated, as you'd be able to read the grail point on the first trip. Also, does anyone know the trigger for opening the elevator? The wiki says it's killing the A Bo A Qus, but that doesn't work for me.

Speaking of confusing triggers, Mulbruk giving you the Book of the Dead requires more than just having entered Anubis's room, but I'm not sure what; sometimes, she'll just keep repeating "I'm sleepy," and it's unclear what makes her stop. I think it might be how much stuff you've done in the ruins, as I've had playthroughs where she'd move on after I beat another Guardian and times when collecting as much as possible beforehand it would only take the one neded to enter her room.

So, I've been in a La-Mulana mood recently, mostly messing around with the remake.

I also rewatched up to the current segment of Maxican's 100% run.  It's closing in on two years since it started now, not counting the time spent routing and planning.  While watching, I realized a route change that would save a few seconds: delaying the Twin Labyrinths ankh jewel and map until after getting bombs, to bomb boost down the ladders there; it's a shame no one thought of bomb boosting earlier.  Oh well, I'm still really looking forward to the next segment whenever he gets around to it.

With the remake, I found a few more uses for the grapple into walls glitch.  Using it in Twin Labyrinths J-2 and C-2 lets you skip both minibosses.  And it can also be used in Guidance Gate in the room above Amphis to skipkilling the red skeletons and doing the block pushing puzzle: the glitch can be done with pushable blocks as well, so if you push the first block off the ledge like normal, then go around and push it off another ledge, you can grapple claw straight into Amphis's room.

Also, for the remake low%, the axe can theoretically be skipped; I used to think it (or the knife) was needed for the second part of the Endless Corridor miniboss, but it turns out that part takes 1 damage/hit from any weapon that makes it flash blue (key sword and flail whip both needed 70 hits, didn't test with anything else).  Of course, this means I have to restart my low% run, after making it all the way to Baphomet and Tiamat.  Also, I checked, and the same logic does not hold true for Anubis w/o Book of the Dead, despite his flashing the same blue.

While likely useless in a speedrun, I also figured out how to climb Tower of the Goddess without the feather.  The first room can be passed with precise grapple claw jumps off the left side, the second by either killing a Vimana on its way up or grapple claw -> damage boost (best done with the "medusa heads" that show up there on hard mode, though it's technically possible with just the bats, but good luck on that), and the third by damage boosting with the A Bo A Qu  This could theoretically be useful in a 100% run, if you go there early through the Gate of Time, with the hard mode tablet activated, as you'd be able to read the grail point on the first trip.  Also, does anyone know the trigger for opening the elevator?  The wiki says it's killing the A Bo A Qus, but that doesn't work for me.

Speaking of confusing triggers, Mulbruk giving you the Book of the Dead requires more than just having entered Anubis's room, but I'm not sure what; sometimes, she'll just keep repeating "I'm sleepy," and it's unclear what makes her stop.  I think it might be how much stuff you've done in the ruins, as I've had playthroughs where she'd move on after I beat another Guardian and times when collecting as much as possible beforehand it would only take the one neded to enter her room.

TheMaxican

2013-04-24 12:52:51 am

Break through the final confusion

Man, two years, eh? Yeah, it's certainly a while. Thanks for sticking through it with me, BlueGlass (and everyone else)!

Yeah, it's pretty crazy how much the segmentation just gives you a whole bunch of Bombs (and life refills!) to play with. The idea to delay the Ankh Jewel is interesting. I think we had it down to a pretty good optimized route for Twin's Labyrinth (three trips, was it?), but yeah, I'm sure there's lots of little time savers to be found in retrospect, hehe.

Yeah, I know, hopefully the next segment comes soon. I don't even know what happened - I was blindsided by a whole bunch of games coming out at the same time (Starcraft 2, Luigi's Mansion 2, etc.), then a whole bunch of other random personal stuff happen. I keep thinking "this weekend, it'll finally happen!" and then something comes up. That's life, I guess. Ah well. My only promise is that I'll never give up on it, so it'll happen eventually.

I like your remake findings though. Uses for the grapple glitch sounds cool. And yeah, I have no idea what controls opening the elevator, besides reaching the top at least once of course.

Dude, it actually just hit me that the "hard mode" is required for the remake 100% since it actually adds something (Mother at the credits, right?), where it doesn't do anything for the original version so it's not required there. That's kind of a scary thought. Not sure why it never stood out to me before (or maybe it did and I just have bad memory, haha...)
This also has made me realize that I've never bothered playing the hard mode on the PC version. What does it actually change, if you happen to know? I know it changes the remake pretty significantly.

Oh, and finally, do we now know what randc + miracle does yet? Because that bugs the crap out of me every time I think about it.

Man, two years, eh? Yeah, it's certainly a while. Thanks for sticking through it with me, BlueGlass (and everyone else)!

Yeah, it's pretty crazy how much the segmentation just gives you a whole bunch of Bombs (and life refills!) to play with. The idea to delay the Ankh Jewel is interesting. I think we had it down to a pretty good optimized route for Twin's Labyrinth (three trips, was it?), but yeah, I'm sure there's lots of little time savers to be found in retrospect, hehe.

Yeah, I know, hopefully the next segment comes soon. I don't even know what happened - I was blindsided by a whole bunch of games coming out at the same time (Starcraft 2, Luigi's Mansion 2, etc.), then a whole bunch of other random personal stuff happen. I keep thinking "this weekend, it'll finally happen!" and then something comes up. That's life, I guess. Ah well. My only promise is that I'll never give up on it, so it'll happen eventually.

I like your remake findings though. Uses for the grapple glitch sounds cool. And yeah, I have no idea what controls opening the elevator, besides reaching the top at least once of course.

Dude, it actually just hit me that the "hard mode" is required for the remake 100% since it actually adds something (Mother at the credits, right?), where it doesn't do anything for the original version so it's not required there. That's kind of a scary thought. Not sure why it never stood out to me before (or maybe it did and I just have bad memory, haha...)
This also has made me realize that I've never bothered playing the hard mode on the PC version. What does it actually change, if you happen to know? I know it changes the remake pretty significantly.

Oh, and finally, do we now know what randc + miracle does yet? Because that bugs the crap out of me every time I think about it.

BlueGlass

2013-04-24 11:03:09 am

Yep yep yep!

Hard mode does a few things. First of all, it adds enemies to a good number of rooms (as opposed to, like, five in the original), secondly, it gives specific regular enemies extra health (for example, the catball at the sun temple grail point doesn't even die to a flail whip hit) next, some regular enemies have a significantly increased movement speed, finally the boses and miniboses have, I believe, 1.5 times as much health and cause at least that much in damage. Seriously, getting hit, especially by running into them, takes a nice chunk out of your lifebar, even with the fairy clothes.

For randc+miracle, I have a theory that I haven't gotten around to testing that it makes the faries stay for longer.

Also, I wish NA wiiware had Hell Temple.

TheMaxican

2013-04-24 10:11:23 pm

Break through the final confusion

Ah cool. I was actually asking about the hard mode of the original PC version. But that's good to know, I still have to do the WiiWare hard mode eventually. Smiley

I believe I had tested the fairies staying longer but that wasn't it. It was a long time ago though.

And me too on the Hell Temple, man, me too...

BlueGlass

2013-04-25 12:11:43 am

Yep yep yep!

Original hard mode, AKAIK, just adds enemies to a few rooms, mostly in Mausoleum of the Giants, and an Anubis or two in Moon Temple.

Solairflaire

2013-04-25 05:07:23 am

One of the verifiers of my run said something that caught my attention. I figure I'd ask about it here so there isn't a possibility of the verifiers revealing who they are if they don't want to. It's probably also better to keep info in one thread instead of having it all over the place.

Quote:

- Admittedly I'm out of the loop on the route, but is this the optimal route in regards to the endless key? Is getting the e. key really faster than skipping it entirely?

Is it possible to get the Death Seal and Keyblade without the Endless Key? I know that one can bomb up through the Endless Corridor to get the Twin Statue and get back up to the top (which would require getting bombs first, but that's a different issue). However, I thought that the floor with the Death Seal and Keyblade was blocked off by a barrier until one solved the puzzle on that floor which would require coming at it from the "normal" direction with the Endless Key.

BlueGlass

2013-04-25 10:56:25 am

Yep yep yep!

It's certainly possible to get up there without the key, but not at all faster. You need to kill Shu anyway to get the Flywheel, which makes the key only a few seconds out of the way. Those few seconds are more than made up by being able to unlock Twin Labyrinths earlier and get the Time Lamp before climbing Tower of the Goddess.

Boris

2013-04-30 04:17:17 pm

FYI the new patch (1.4.4.2 or something, the one currently activated on Steam) invalidated the Flail Whip Early glitch by moving the pot slightly to the right.

Anonymous52555

2013-05-01 03:10:35 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

They actually removed a lot of the glitch locations in 1.4.4.2. Just use the 1.3 version for speedrunning.

Toothache

2013-05-06 05:34:46 am

Let the music play!

First part of a TAS run of La-Mulana classic. Not done by me, but I figure I'd bring it to people's attention. Not sure if something new will occur from this, but it'll be good to compare to nontheless

Traysandor

2013-05-10 08:23:34 am

The original, since 2003.

So I've been playing a lot of the remake for La-Mulana on Steam.

One thing I've noticed is looking at the Any% Speedrun, that you grab the bombs then go down to grab the Woman Statue.

When you go to impregnate the Woman Statue you have to wait in that room for 45 seconds. You can use those 45 seconds, take three bombs and bomb out the wall on the upper-left side of the room. There's a hidden coin chest there with 30 coins in it. You'll still have 2 bombs left. One you use to get the Lamp of Time, and the other goes unused.

Something to keep in mind that could probably save like 5-10 seconds overall, in that you don't have to bust open a couple pots.

DeliciousPi

2013-05-10 10:57:32 am

That's a great point Traysandor. Thanks for bringing it up!