La-Mulana

2011-04-30 09:59:41 pm

Break through the final confusion

Well the bad news is that the executable from the link you gave me and the aeon genesis executable are exactly the same... So, yeah, that didn't work either.
JP or EN language, compatibility mode or not... nothing works. Meaning either I'm totally screwed, OR it goes back to the theory that there's some precondition...
What would the 100% segmented run be doing that the SS + low % run wouldn't be doing, or vice versa? The only thing I can think of is lots of saving (obviously), lots of farming, and lots of leveling up (perhaps the 200 coins are a reward for healing your life via level up when your life is at red? Or perhaps just for not saving up to that point? etc.)

Actually, now that I think about it, all I have been doing to see if the coins are there or not is to do the absolute minimum. That is:
1) Go to the Temple of the Sun and step on that switch to expose the dias that unlocks the area to the Boots, then grail warp out.
2) Go to the Twin Labyrinth and buy the Helmet.
3) Go to the Spring in the Sky and get the Conception Seal. On the way down, fall to Temple of the Sun, get the Boots, and read the warp tablet for the Chamber of Extinction.
4) Go to the Surface to get the Birth Seal.
5) Go to the Temple of the Sun, beat Ellmac, then go to the back and get the Axe.
6) Go to the Chamber of Extinction and, with your new Axe, get the Life Seal.
7) Go to the Surface with your new Life Seal and unlock the 3 jars.

At this point, the 200 coins will NEVER be there.
So, can any of you try these exact steps and let me know what you find? I'd really appreciate it, because otherwise I don't know what it means for this run!

Oh, and Anon, I may be biased since I basically forced you to redo your run (haha), but I think that the "large skip glitch" SHOULD be considered a separate category. Simply because it's SO different in terms of difficulty (like choosing Mini Doll vs. Grail) as well as final time. But I guess it's a question for an admin in the end? I could see them being opposed to 3 different low% categories (with Grail, with Mini Doll, with Large Skips), and that's not even counting SS vs. Segmented (which gets an additional item to allow saving).
...Or actually, what IS the SDA verdict on someone working on a low% run, then in the middle of the run an even lower % is discovered? Is the runner allowed to continue, or forced to restart? I'd like to think this sort of thing has happened before...

Well the bad news is that the executable from the link you gave me and the aeon genesis executable are exactly the same... So, yeah, that didn't work either.
JP or EN language, compatibility mode or not... nothing works. Meaning either I'm totally screwed, OR it goes back to the theory that there's some precondition...
What would the 100% segmented run be doing that the SS + low % run wouldn't be doing, or vice versa? The only thing I can think of is lots of saving (obviously), lots of farming, and lots of leveling up (perhaps the 200 coins are a reward for healing your life via level up when your life is at red? Or perhaps just for not saving up to that point? etc.)

Actually, now that I think about it, all I have been doing to see if the coins are there or not is to do the absolute minimum. That is:
1) Go to the Temple of the Sun and step on that switch to expose the dias that unlocks the area to the Boots, then grail warp out.
2) Go to the Twin Labyrinth and buy the Helmet.
3) Go to the Spring in the Sky and get the Conception Seal. On the way down, fall to Temple of the Sun, get the Boots, and read the warp tablet for the Chamber of Extinction.
4) Go to the Surface to get the Birth Seal.
5) Go to the Temple of the Sun, beat Ellmac, then go to the back and get the Axe.
6) Go to the Chamber of Extinction and, with your new Axe, get the Life Seal.
7) Go to the Surface with your new Life Seal and unlock the 3 jars.

At this point, the 200 coins will NEVER be there.
So, can any of you try these exact steps and let me know what you find? I'd really appreciate it, because otherwise I don't know what it means for this run!

Oh, and Anon, I may be biased since I basically forced you to redo your run (haha), but I think that the "large skip glitch" SHOULD be considered a separate category. Simply because it's SO different in terms of difficulty (like choosing Mini Doll vs. Grail) as well as final time. But I guess it's a question for an admin in the end? I could see them being opposed to 3 different low% categories (with Grail, with Mini Doll, with Large Skips), and that's not even counting SS vs. Segmented (which gets an additional item to allow saving).
...Or actually, what IS the SDA verdict on someone working on a low% run, then in the middle of the run an even lower % is discovered? Is the runner allowed to continue, or forced to restart? I'd like to think this sort of thing has happened before...

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-01 08:48:03 am

2011-05-01 08:45:00 am

Metroidvanias are God Tier

You know just to save us the trouble. I feel I since I am going for lowest items part of the challenge is getting the lowest number of items. If this changes everything so be it. Besides I kinda was wanting to skip the grail anyways. The problems are here

I am only going to go to the surface for these things
After Bahamut
Get the Feather
After the Talisman
After the Diary
Before the 7th Mantra. (Considering how Precise the 3rd mantra is)
And Before Mother. (Considering the Difficulty of the boss I think I'll take the time loss for a completed segment)

But Anyways what this breaks down to is when and when will I not go the the surface to save. After Viy I am going to grab the talisman and go to the surface for sure. But then the Diary is basically my segment splitter. So What would be the best time to go get the diary?

Edit: Also just in case it saves it to the registry I would suggest cleaning it just in case also go look into the appdata folder on your computer.

TheMaxican

Edit history:

TheMaxican: 2011-05-01 04:52:47 pm

2011-05-01 04:12:21 pm

Break through the final confusion

Well if that's how you feel, then you definitely have my support! Go Anon! Smiley

I wish I had more to add to the planning, but it's hard for me to imagine playing this game low%, ESPECIALLY speed running it! So I'll have to defer to you and BlueGlass for the brilliance in planning. Smiley

On the Diary, yeah I don't know... I would say you could lump that with getting the Twin Statue/Keyblade/Seal of Death, but then you NEED the Lantern to get the Diary, meaning you need to get the Twin Statue well before that. So yeah... doesn't really fit in a good place. So I guess it'd be nice to do as much as possible before that, so that you have a segment where you only have to primarily deal with Crystal Skull, Tiamat, and the mantras.
...Wow, it just hit me that the mantra chanting is going to be extremely annoying, isn't it? Smiley

I hope no one would mind the segment break before Mother. Smiley

You'll at least be getting the Angel Shield though, which should help there.

Oh, and I had actually already checked the registry and it looked good. Completely forgot about the appdata folder, though, so I'll check that next.

EDIT: Actually, to ensure that this doesn't happen again, perhaps it's a good time for us to sit down and remember why we need all the items?
I have an edited version of the screenshot posted by Anon way back when, but someone's gonna have to teach me how to inline the image in the post. Smiley

That and it doesn't look like I can "attach" an image to an edited post, so... yeah.

Anyway, I'll start the list:
Boots - Needed for Axe
Lantern - Needed for Diary
Pochette Key - Needed to activate the Palenque fight
Woman Doll - Needed for Ocarina
Scalesphere - Needed to activate the Bahamut fight, among other things
Helmet - Needed for Scalesphere
Magatama Jewel - Needed for Mantra chanting
Flywheel - Need for Pochette Key
Grapple Claw - Needed for Feather
Ice Cape - Needed to activate the Viy fight
Ocarina - Needed for the 4 Sages, which unlocks a bunch of needed things
Plane Model - Needed to get Bombs + Chamber of Birth
Anchor - Needed for the Lizard in Confusion Gate
Serpent Staff - Needed for Feather
Dragon Bone - Needed for Diary
Wedge - Needed for Mantra chanting
Feather - Needed to damage Mother's third form (and probably a bunch of other places)
Twin Statue - Needed to get into Twin's Labyrinth
Crystal Skull - Needed to get into Dimensional Corridor
Bronze Mirror - Needed to fight Viy, and get into Tower of the Goddess
La-Mulana Talisman - Needed to get Crystal Skull
Container w/Medicine of Life - Needed to fight Mother
All Main Weapons and 4 Seals - Needed for Mother fight
Shurikens - ? (I'm drawing a blank... where is it absolutely necessary?)
Spears - Needed to unlock Viy fight (that room with the red slimes in Tower of Ruin)
Flares - Needed to get the Ocarina
Bombs - Needed to make Grail/Mini-Doll/Endless Key skip possible (and probably somewhere else too?)
Silver/Angel Shield - Needed to get Container
Scanner - Needed to read the glyph in Tower of the Goddess

Also the screenshot didn't include MSX cartridges, but I'm assuming it's just:
Game Master - Needed to have a segmented run
Glyph Reader - Needed to read the glyph in Tower of the Goddess

...phew... okay, NOW we can start talking about which ones we MIGHT be able to skip. Smiley

Once we finalize on this, I can take this and the 100% definition and go update that thread. I guess we reached a consensus on 100% - Includes Skimpy Swimsuit, Maps, Chain Whip, Buckler, and Silver Shield, but NOT Fake Silver Shield?

Well if that's how you feel, then you definitely have my support! Go Anon! :)

I wish I had more to add to the planning, but it's hard for me to imagine playing this game low%, ESPECIALLY speed running it! So I'll have to defer to you and BlueGlass for the brilliance in planning. :)
On the Diary, yeah I don't know... I would say you could lump that with getting the Twin Statue/Keyblade/Seal of Death, but then you NEED the Lantern to get the Diary, meaning you need to get the Twin Statue well before that. So yeah... doesn't really fit in a good place. So I guess it'd be nice to do as much as possible before that, so that you have a segment where you only have to primarily deal with Crystal Skull, Tiamat, and the mantras.
...Wow, it just hit me that the mantra chanting is going to be extremely annoying, isn't it? :)

I hope no one would mind the segment break before Mother. :) You'll at least be getting the Angel Shield though, which should help there.

Oh, and I had actually already checked the registry and it looked good. Completely forgot about the appdata folder, though, so I'll check that next.

EDIT: Actually, to ensure that this doesn't happen again, perhaps it's a good time for us to sit down and remember why we need all the items?
I have an edited version of the screenshot posted by Anon way back when, but someone's gonna have to teach me how to inline the image in the post. :) That and it doesn't look like I can "attach" an image to an edited post, so... yeah.

Anyway, I'll start the list:
Boots - Needed for Axe
Lantern - Needed for Diary
Pochette Key - Needed to activate the Palenque fight
Woman Doll - Needed for Ocarina
Scalesphere - Needed to activate the Bahamut fight, among other things
Helmet - Needed for Scalesphere
Magatama Jewel - Needed for Mantra chanting
Flywheel - Need for Pochette Key
Grapple Claw - Needed for Feather
Ice Cape - Needed to activate the Viy fight
Ocarina - Needed for the 4 Sages, which unlocks a bunch of needed things
Plane Model - Needed to get Bombs + Chamber of Birth
Anchor - Needed for the Lizard in Confusion Gate
Serpent Staff - Needed for Feather
Dragon Bone - Needed for Diary
Wedge - Needed for Mantra chanting
Feather - Needed to damage Mother's third form (and probably a bunch of other places)
Twin Statue - Needed to get into Twin's Labyrinth
Crystal Skull - Needed to get into Dimensional Corridor
Bronze Mirror - Needed to fight Viy, and get into Tower of the Goddess
La-Mulana Talisman - Needed to get Crystal Skull
Container w/Medicine of Life - Needed to fight Mother
All Main Weapons and 4 Seals - Needed for Mother fight
Shurikens - ? (I'm drawing a blank... where is it absolutely necessary?)
Spears - Needed to unlock Viy fight (that room with the red slimes in Tower of Ruin)
Flares - Needed to get the Ocarina
Bombs - Needed to make Grail/Mini-Doll/Endless Key skip possible (and probably somewhere else too?)
Silver/Angel Shield - Needed to get Container
Scanner - Needed to read the glyph in Tower of the Goddess

Also the screenshot didn't include MSX cartridges, but I'm assuming it's just:
Game Master - Needed to have a segmented run
Glyph Reader - Needed to read the glyph in Tower of the Goddess

...phew... okay, NOW we can start talking about which ones we MIGHT be able to skip. :)

Once we finalize on this, I can take this and the 100% definition and go update that thread. I guess we reached a consensus on 100% - Includes Skimpy Swimsuit, Maps, Chain Whip, Buckler, and Silver Shield, but NOT Fake Silver Shield?

Anonymous52555

2011-05-01 06:02:17 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Shurikens get you the knife. I know that off the top of my head. Also the feathers is needed for the tower of the goddess.

Also just a thought, You know the bat glitch that can sometimes knock you through platforms, I wonder if that could get us up in the confusion gate without needing the anchor to activate the ladder. Just a thought. If this does work and we can get it consistantly, well then there is about 7 or 8 weights saved and 3 items just got skipped.

Fragmaster01

Edit history:

Fragmaster01: 2011-05-01 06:10:05 pm

2011-05-01 06:08:14 pm

Wiggle wiggle

Sounds about right on the 100% definition. For low%, you're missing the Fake Scanner, needed for the Dragon Bone shop. Haven't tested, but I think you need Shuriken to break a wall in Temple of the Moon to move further up(the screen two below the 5 weight pedestals with the map). I don't think the moving platforms are close enough to break it with the Whip.

EDIT: Anonymous beat me to it, and his Shuriken situation is much more obvious, I can't think of a way to get around that without the Shuriken or Double Jump. I think you need the Knife to get the Serpent Staff(hitting the wall switch) to get the Feather, so you won't have 2xjump before then, so you need the Shuriken.

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-01 06:35:58 pm

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-01 06:35:08 pm

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-01 06:33:43 pm

2011-05-01 06:32:20 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

@fragmaster01 Actually you could get the feather before the knife but you just can't jump over it even with the double jump. Just to keep things safe, lets just not look into skipping the shurikens Wink

Edit: I am going to make a save after Tiamat and the 8th Mantra Because you have never tried to get the 3rd mantra in a low% setting (it is extremely precise (as in you walk out of there with 1 bar of hp left))

Fragmaster01

2011-05-01 07:33:39 pm

Wiggle wiggle

Yeah, doesn't work. Was thinking of it as jumping up from below, but I forgot how that screen is laid out. You can get to the ledge below the knife, but not the one with the switch to open the vault. So yeah, Shuriken required.

TheMaxican

2011-05-01 07:34:49 pm

Break through the final confusion

Duly noted, shurikens are here to stay. Smiley

Hmm, didn't think about going through the floor in Confusion Gate. Sounds like it would be a pain though. Give it a try and let us know what happens, because that would be sweet.

BTW, as I said before, this 100% planning is going faster than I'd have hoped. I'm finishing up the coin grinding calculations and will hopefully put up my findings soon, but I've discovered some amazing things (did you know you can get 30 coins in 10 seconds from the Tower of the Goddess grail point?). At first I thought I'd never have to actually buy any weights due to spamming the 2 weights to the right of the Guidance Gate grail point, but now I'm not too sure... additionally, I'm now fairly convinced that I WON'T have to have special coin grinding segments at the end. I think I may actually have all the coins I need before I even get a chance to get the Bracelet! Nothing's final yet but I'll keep you guys posted.

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-01 10:07:21 pm

2011-05-01 07:45:42 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Glad To here your run is going good. Well on my 100% file I got to wall glitch to work after about 30 minutes or so. I remember a while ago that the cause of the wall glitches was having the body armor, which is of course after that wall glitch :/. I also have to look at the fact that it is at the end of a segment, bats take out 1 bar of hp each, I have 8 bars of health, the chances of it happening are very slim. So Until someone teaches me how to do it consistently I'll pass on it.

TheMaxican

2011-05-02 12:56:46 am

Break through the final confusion

Yeah... I'm going to have to agree with you there, Anon. Especially since then you'd have to get the Body Armor, meaning you have to get that AND the MSX2 AND Diviner Sensation AND Q-Bert. Oh, and visit the fairy. So... yeah... even if we got it to be somewhat consistent, it'll probably end up being more items collected in the end. Smiley

So anyway, I FINALLY finished my Pot guide (for everything except Hell Temple), and I've cross-checked it with BlueGlass' version AND the wiki's version to produce the MASTER version! Turns out all of us were missing something that the other guides had, haha... so that worked out well. I find a few that both others missed, such as the 10 coin pot in Surface I-3 that (gasp!) actually regenerates after a save! But I'm guessing that's because it's so hard to get to (it's on the way to the Wedge). Another notable is the 10 coin pot "inside of the woman" - that's right, you can sacrifice your life to lightning for 10 coins! Also, BlueGlass, I'm sure you know already but you were missing all the one-timers - this is the reason why mine took so long. Smiley

So anyway, I went ahead and updated the wiki with all of this, so that hopefully other people can make use of it. Not sure how much it helps people here, but ah well... I feel like such a good Samaritan. Smiley

Although that poor wiki gets hit with so much spam that I hope it doesn't accidentally get rolled back by someone who thinks it's MORE spam... Smiley

Actually, while we're talking about it... the wiki mentions: "Remember, nothing is too insignificant! If it relates to La-Mulana at all, add it!" I'm not sure how much traffic that wiki sees, but should we perhaps make a "Speedruns" section where we mention Jman's run (and szsk's I suppose), our runs in progress, and perhaps link to this post, to try to see there's any La-Mulana experts that haven't heard of SDA and might help us with the planning? Or would such blatant SDA advertising be frowned upon? Smiley

Yeah... I'm going to have to agree with you there, Anon. Especially since then you'd have to get the Body Armor, meaning you have to get that AND the MSX2 AND Diviner Sensation AND Q-Bert. Oh, and visit the fairy. So... yeah... even if we got it to be somewhat consistent, it'll probably end up being more items collected in the end. :)

So anyway, I FINALLY finished my Pot guide (for everything except Hell Temple), and I've cross-checked it with BlueGlass' version AND the wiki's version to produce the MASTER version! Turns out all of us were missing something that the other guides had, haha... so that worked out well. I find a few that both others missed, such as the 10 coin pot in Surface I-3 that (gasp!) actually regenerates after a save! But I'm guessing that's because it's so hard to get to (it's on the way to the Wedge). Another notable is the 10 coin pot "inside of the woman" - that's right, you can sacrifice your life to lightning for 10 coins! Also, BlueGlass, I'm sure you know already but you were missing all the one-timers - this is the reason why mine took so long. :)

So anyway, I went ahead and updated the wiki with all of this, so that hopefully other people can make use of it. Not sure how much it helps people here, but ah well... I feel like such a good Samaritan. :) Although that poor wiki gets hit with so much spam that I hope it doesn't accidentally get rolled back by someone who thinks it's MORE spam... :)

Actually, while we're talking about it... the wiki mentions: "Remember, nothing is too insignificant! If it relates to La-Mulana at all, add it!" I'm not sure how much traffic that wiki sees, but should we perhaps make a "Speedruns" section where we mention Jman's run (and szsk's I suppose), our runs in progress, and perhaps link to this post, to try to see there's any La-Mulana experts that haven't heard of SDA and might help us with the planning? Or would such blatant SDA advertising be frowned upon? :)

Anonymous52555

2011-05-02 06:33:28 am

Metroidvanias are God Tier

I think you should make a Speed Run page. Also just a thought. Why do we go and talk to Samanthara. He doesn't do anything relevant to the run. Not even 100%. I've been thinking this for a while but couldn't we just like skip him?

TheMaxican

2011-05-02 01:31:18 pm

Break through the final confusion

Actually, I'm fairly certain that you can't either the room with Mother's Ankh without talking to him. He makes the stairs come out in the normal Shrine of the Mother, and on the True Shrine of the Mother you'll find that there's some random debris that doesn't let you go on to the Ankh.

At least, I know for sure this happens if you to go the True Shrine without the Ocarina. Whether just having the Ocarina and talking to the other three Sages is enough, I'm not 100% sure... so, as usual, it's time to investigate!

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-02 04:29:12 pm

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-02 03:29:50 pm

2011-05-02 03:29:06 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

I thought that only happened when you didn't have all the seals. Well I didn't have the ocarina either. Hmm Trying to remember my first playthrough and its not working very well at all. I'll go test tomorrow, I got a terrible headache right now and I probably shouldn't be here.

BlueGlass

2011-05-03 12:45:27 am

Yep yep yep!

TheMaxican's right. I tried skipping just him once, and the way to the final room was blocked.

Anyway, Anon, now that you've been forced back to the no-warps route would you mind posting it for us? I'd be interested in looking at it, and having an extra viewpoint or two can help you find things you might have you missed.

TheMaxican

2011-05-03 03:16:10 am

Break through the final confusion

Hope you feel better, Anon! I guess thanks to BlueGlass, you won't have to test tomorrow. Smiley

And I agree with BlueGlass, it'll definitely be good to see the new route!

Anyway, my Coin analysis is done. It's... really long. Smiley

So yeah, if you feel like it, grab a drink and read on, to get a clue as to how twisted my mind actually is. Smiley

Otherwise skip to the synopsis at the bottom (recommended):

With the completed Coin guide, I went ahead and timed myself going from every Warp point to the closest coins. Very loose timing - to the nearest second (it turns out it's good enough). I was hoping to do a similar thing as what I was planning for the Crystalis run when it came to grind-vs-kill-enemies-on-the-way - basically, establish a good average CPS (Coins per Second), and then use that a basis to decide whether or not to get any Coins normally on my route. Essentially, if you assume an optimal CPS is, say, 2, then if getting a certain 10 Coin pickup takes longer that 5 seconds compared to if I didn't get it (since 10 Coins / 2 CPS = 5 seconds), then I don't bother getting it at all. I hope that makes sense. Smiley

Furthermore, this would help me decide which coins to get at the start of every segment. Basically, since all the Coins respawn on every segment, there's a subset of all the Coins you can farm such that getting any OTHER farmable Coins would end up wasting more time in the long run. For example, if there were 3 coin jars in game, that took 2, 5, and 20 seconds to reach, then obviously you're better off only getting the 2 and 5 second ones every segment and just forgetting about the 20 second one. Furthermore, combined with the fact above, the optimal segment CPS in this example is 2.86 (20 Coins / 7 Seconds), so it only makes sense to EVER get that third jar if it would cause you to deviate from the non-jar path for less than 3.5 seconds (10 Coins / 2.86 CPS). I hope that still makes sense. Smiley

If I've lost you at this point... don't worry, as you can see, I think too much and that's why these things take me years to plan. Smiley

ANYWAY, long story short, I found something pretty unfortunate - the "sweet spot" is actually kind of lame: the optimal sweet spot is found for only 20 coins, the ones on Tower of the Goddess (1s) and Chamber of Birth (2s) (+3s for putting on Antarctic Adventure + Comic Bakery in the worst case), yielding 3.33 CPS. Get ANY other Coins in the game and it just lowers the optimal CPS on every segment.
...Well, not quite. This assumes that the time to use the Grail for moving around AND the time to Save is exactly zero. So obviously there's a few seconds of fluff there. AND there's something to be said about preferring to get more coins per segment than not. So I can get a few extra jars and, realistically, it's still pretty freaking optimal. Smiley

...So ANYWAY, long story short - based on the data I'm about to present, I pseudo-randomly decided on a cutoff of 1.5 CPS (meaning 6.67 seconds to get a 10 Coin jar is acceptable). This is a good value because all of the "fast" jars I list below are less than or equal to that. In layman's terms, it's good to spend less than a second per Coin.
This means, among other things, that you won't see me taking those longer coin-getting paths (such as the famous Twin Labyrinth path to get the 30 Coin jar, or the Shrine of the Mother, etc.), because those are actually more than a second per coin. This also hopefully means the grinding is less boring. Smiley

So, without futher ado, here's the different "tiers" of coin getting, based on average seconds to get, along with cumulative CPS:

Key: seconds - total coins - field number - description

==Rear Field Jars (40/15=2.7 CPS)
3s just for putting on Antarctic Adventure + Comic Bakery
10s - 30 Coins - 4 Rear - below tablet, then the one next to 5 Rear entrance, then down-right of that
1s - 10 Coins - 6 Rear - just left of tablet

==5s Jars (70/31=2.3 CPS)
16s - 30 Coins - 8 - below warp point, then left below mantra tablet, then left next to store

==7s Jars (90/45=2.0 CPS)
7s - 10 Coins - 1 - below Shuriken (but ONLY if getting the 2 Weights Jar, which I'll be doing a lot)
7s - 10 Coins - 3 - next to shop below the Knife (there's some slightly-out-of-the-way Shurikens here too if absolutely necessary)

I would actually cut it off here for most segments. However, a LOT of segments will include grinding for Shurikens (which I use liberally) and Flares (which are good for killing Guardians + annoying flying things). So a lot of them will include:

==8s Jars (160/102=1.6 CPS)
24s - 30 Coins - 1 - below Map, then next to Grail, then below that (gets 20 Shurikens too!)
17s - 20 Coins - 3 - From the shop mentioned above, go down, next to random talking NPC, then right of that next to spikes pit
16s - 20 Coins - 6 - Next to the 20 flares blocks, then below that in a block (gets 20 flares!)

Other notables (I'd probably only be getting these when necessary, like buying an item early on) include:

==9 (180/120=1.5 CPS)
9 (10) - 4 - above entrance from 1
9 (10) - 5 - down-left from the warp, right of the 5 Rear entrance

==Other notables at 12 (this is really pushing it)
12s - 10 Coins - 1 - From the 30 coin path above, go down to the one next to mantra tablet
12s - 10 Coins - 3 - From the 20 coin path above, next to other shop (good if buying Weights!)
12s - 10 Coins - 4 - Below Gloves

Any other jars, I'll only be getting if they satisfy the 1.5 CPS requirement... or, you know, close enough, given how wishy-washy all this math is anyway... Smiley

...Whew, that took a long time to type. Smiley

So ANYWAY, the synopsis of all of that (I apologize for the minutes of your life you just wasted if you read that) is that, once I get Antarctic Adventure + Comic Bakery, I'll probably be getting AT LEAST 60 Coins (and usually 90 Coins) to start every segment. In just 45 seconds.
If I'm grinding for Sub-Weapons (which I actually probably will be for a lot of segments), make that 140-160 coins, for 2 minutes total.
Remember, I only need around 2000 extra coins. At 160 coins a segment, I'd only need about 12 segments (and even at the more conservative 90, that's only about 22), and I can tell you that I'll be using quite a bit more than that! Smiley

And this is just coins I get at the start of segments!

Long story short, you won't have to have any segments where I only grind for coins. More like you can just skip the first 45 seconds of all of my segments. Smiley

(This is obviously not true for the first few segments, since I need quite a few Coins early on... but that's a discussion for another day...)

...So there you go, for anyone wondering why my Crystalis run still isn't done. Smiley

This is going light-years faster than Crystalis though!

So yeah, that was one of the biggest hurdles to planning, and with that out the way, hopefully I can put up a respectable route soon!
...Geez, at this rate, I may actually finish my route and start recording before the end of the year! Smiley

P.S. BlueGlass, you're a genius for suggesting going to Endless Corridor as early as possible. Until I get Antarctic Adventure + Comic Bakery (which is actually not for a while), 30 coins in 16 seconds is going to be my bread and butter for a while. Smiley

Hope you feel better, Anon! I guess thanks to BlueGlass, you won't have to test tomorrow. :)

And I agree with BlueGlass, it'll definitely be good to see the new route!

Anyway, my Coin analysis is done. It's... really long. :) So yeah, if you feel like it, grab a drink and read on, to get a clue as to how twisted my mind actually is. :) Otherwise skip to the synopsis at the bottom (recommended):

[hidden]
With the completed Coin guide, I went ahead and timed myself going from every Warp point to the closest coins. Very loose timing - to the nearest second (it turns out it's good enough). I was hoping to do a similar thing as what I was planning for the Crystalis run when it came to grind-vs-kill-enemies-on-the-way - basically, establish a good average CPS (Coins per Second), and then use that a basis to decide whether or not to get any Coins normally on my route. Essentially, if you assume an optimal CPS is, say, 2, then if getting a certain 10 Coin pickup takes longer that 5 seconds compared to if I didn't get it (since 10 Coins / 2 CPS = 5 seconds), then I don't bother getting it at all. I hope that makes sense. :)

Furthermore, this would help me decide which coins to get at the start of every segment. Basically, since all the Coins respawn on every segment, there's a subset of all the Coins you can farm such that getting any OTHER farmable Coins would end up wasting more time in the long run. For example, if there were 3 coin jars in game, that took 2, 5, and 20 seconds to reach, then obviously you're better off only getting the 2 and 5 second ones every segment and just forgetting about the 20 second one. Furthermore, combined with the fact above, the optimal segment CPS in this example is 2.86 (20 Coins / 7 Seconds), so it only makes sense to EVER get that third jar if it would cause you to deviate from the non-jar path for less than 3.5 seconds (10 Coins / 2.86 CPS). I hope that still makes sense. :)

If I've lost you at this point... don't worry, as you can see, I think too much and that's why these things take me years to plan. :)

ANYWAY, long story short, I found something pretty unfortunate - the "sweet spot" is actually kind of lame: the optimal sweet spot is found for only 20 coins, the ones on Tower of the Goddess (1s) and Chamber of Birth (2s) (+3s for putting on Antarctic Adventure + Comic Bakery in the worst case), yielding 3.33 CPS. Get ANY other Coins in the game and it just lowers the optimal CPS on every segment.
...Well, not quite. This assumes that the time to use the Grail for moving around AND the time to Save is exactly zero. So obviously there's a few seconds of fluff there. AND there's something to be said about preferring to get more coins per segment than not. So I can get a few extra jars and, realistically, it's still pretty freaking optimal. :)

...So ANYWAY, long story short - based on the data I'm about to present, I pseudo-randomly decided on a cutoff of 1.5 CPS (meaning 6.67 seconds to get a 10 Coin jar is acceptable). This is a good value because all of the "fast" jars I list below are less than or equal to that. In layman's terms, it's good to spend less than a second per Coin.
This means, among other things, that you won't see me taking those longer coin-getting paths (such as the famous Twin Labyrinth path to get the 30 Coin jar, or the Shrine of the Mother, etc.), because those are actually more than a second per coin. This also hopefully means the grinding is less boring. :)

So, without futher ado, here's the different "tiers" of coin getting, based on average seconds to get, along with cumulative CPS:

Key: seconds - total coins - field number - description

==Rear Field Jars (40/15=2.7 CPS)
3s just for putting on Antarctic Adventure + Comic Bakery
10s - 30 Coins - 4 Rear - below tablet, then the one next to 5 Rear entrance, then down-right of that
1s - 10 Coins - 6 Rear - just left of tablet

==5s Jars (70/31=2.3 CPS)
16s - 30 Coins - 8 - below warp point, then left below mantra tablet, then left next to store

==7s Jars (90/45=2.0 CPS)
7s - 10 Coins - 1 - below Shuriken (but ONLY if getting the 2 Weights Jar, which I'll be doing a lot)
7s - 10 Coins - 3 - next to shop below the Knife (there's some slightly-out-of-the-way Shurikens here too if absolutely necessary)

I would actually cut it off here for most segments. However, a LOT of segments will include grinding for Shurikens (which I use liberally) and Flares (which are good for killing Guardians + annoying flying things). So a lot of them will include:

==8s Jars (160/102=1.6 CPS)
24s - 30 Coins - 1 - below Map, then next to Grail, then below that (gets 20 Shurikens too!)
17s - 20 Coins - 3 - From the shop mentioned above, go down, next to random talking NPC, then right of that next to spikes pit
16s - 20 Coins - 6 - Next to the 20 flares blocks, then below that in a block (gets 20 flares!)

Other notables (I'd probably only be getting these when necessary, like buying an item early on) include:

==9 (180/120=1.5 CPS)
9 (10) - 4 - above entrance from 1
9 (10) - 5 - down-left from the warp, right of the 5 Rear entrance

==Other notables at 12 (this is really pushing it)
12s - 10 Coins - 1 - From the 30 coin path above, go down to the one next to mantra tablet
12s - 10 Coins - 3 - From the 20 coin path above, next to other shop (good if buying Weights!)
12s - 10 Coins - 4 - Below Gloves

Any other jars, I'll only be getting if they satisfy the 1.5 CPS requirement... or, you know, close enough, given how wishy-washy all this math is anyway... :)

[/hidden]
...Whew, that took a long time to type. :)

So ANYWAY, the synopsis of all of that (I apologize for the minutes of your life you just wasted if you read that) is that, once I get Antarctic Adventure + Comic Bakery, I'll probably be getting AT LEAST 60 Coins (and usually 90 Coins) to start every segment. In just 45 seconds.
If I'm grinding for Sub-Weapons (which I actually probably will be for a lot of segments), make that 140-160 coins, for 2 minutes total.
Remember, I only need around 2000 extra coins. At 160 coins a segment, I'd only need about 12 segments (and even at the more conservative 90, that's only about 22), and I can tell you that I'll be using quite a bit more than that! :) And this is just coins I get at the start of segments!

Long story short, you won't have to have any segments where I only grind for coins. More like you can just skip the first 45 seconds of all of my segments. :)

(This is obviously not true for the first few segments, since I need quite a few Coins early on... but that's a discussion for another day...)

...So there you go, for anyone wondering why my Crystalis run still isn't done. :) This is going light-years faster than Crystalis though!

So yeah, that was one of the biggest hurdles to planning, and with that out the way, hopefully I can put up a respectable route soon!
...Geez, at this rate, I may actually finish my route and start recording before the end of the year! :)

P.S. BlueGlass, you're a genius for suggesting going to Endless Corridor as early as possible. Until I get Antarctic Adventure + Comic Bakery (which is actually not for a while), 30 coins in 16 seconds is going to be my bread and butter for a while. :)

Anonymous52555

2011-05-03 06:15:51 am

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Alright as for segment 1. It should start out kinda the same but I won't be getting all the coin pots really early on. So as for the surface.

Basic Route:
Surface: Get coin pot and weights, talk to xelpud then enter ruins.

Guidance Gate: Get coin pot at start, fall down go to the left get surikens, grab weights and 3 suriken pots, grab coin pot to the left then climb the ladder down hit the jewel, fall down go to the right and fall some more then go to the Temple of the sun.

Temple of the Sun: First get the knife, then fall down and go to the right first, climb the ladder into the temple, hit the switch at the top, grab the coin pot, then fall down the pit at the bottom into the shop room. Grab the Coin pot and buy 2 sets of weights. Go to the left on the lower part, grab the coin pot, talk to the person, stand under the eye, get the ankh, and grab the coin pot, then climb the really long ladder to the the place with the switch. Hit the switch, grab the coin pot. then go to the left and go into the inferno cavern.

Inferno Cavern: Go straight to the flares, and get out

Temple of the sun, climb back up to the top, on the left screen, kill the enemies, put a weight on the pedestal and grab the flares then get out of the temple.

Guidance Gate: Climb the ladder then go to the left to the room where the green thing was. Go left one more screen, fall down grab coin pot. the fall so more grab some surikens, go and do the sword and shield puzzle, hit the switch then go into the mausoleum.

Mausoleum of Giants: Grab the coin pot at the entrance. Then go straight to the moon star sun room. First get the sun. Go to the Twin labyrinths but hit the pedestal on the way.

Twin Labyrinth: Get the 30 coin pot, get the 100 coin pot, get the helmet and get out

Mausoleum of Giants: Go back to the star moon room and get stars, climb up hit the weight to activate the ankh jewel. Then leave

Guidance Gate: Get the coin pot in the room to the left, get the ankh jewel, then go to the spring in the sky while grabbing a shuriken pot on the way.

Spring in the Sky: First go the the left and do the water trick. Next kill the subboss and get the conception seal. Grab the Scale sphere. Activate the water, go get the ankh jewel, activate Bahamut's Ankh, drain water into the temple of the sun. Then go back and fight bahamut and hope that he doesn't kill me.

Surface: Get the Birth seal. Then go back to the start, buy hand scanner, game master, and the glyph reader, save.

Haven't got the plan for segment 2 yet but that is segment 1.

Alright as for segment 1. It should start out kinda the same but I won't be getting all the coin pots really early on. So as for the surface.

Basic Route:
Surface: Get coin pot and weights, talk to xelpud then enter ruins.

Guidance Gate: Get coin pot at start, fall down go to the left get surikens, grab weights and 3 suriken pots, grab coin pot to the left then climb the ladder down hit the jewel, fall down go to the right and fall some more then go to the Temple of the sun.

Temple of the Sun: First get the knife, then fall down and go to the right first, climb the ladder into the temple, hit the switch at the top, grab the coin pot, then fall down the pit at the bottom into the shop room. Grab the Coin pot and buy 2 sets of weights. Go to the left on the lower part, grab the coin pot, talk to the person, stand under the eye, get the ankh, and grab the coin pot, then climb the really long ladder to the the place with the switch. Hit the switch, grab the coin pot. then go to the left and go into the inferno cavern.

Inferno Cavern: Go straight to the flares, and get out

Temple of the sun, climb back up to the top, on the left screen, kill the enemies, put a weight on the pedestal and grab the flares then get out of the temple.

Guidance Gate: Climb the ladder then go to the left to the room where the green thing was. Go left one more screen, fall down grab coin pot. the fall so more grab some surikens, go and do the sword and shield puzzle, hit the switch then go into the mausoleum.

Mausoleum of Giants: Grab the coin pot at the entrance.  Then go straight to the moon star sun room. First get the sun. Go to the Twin labyrinths but hit the pedestal on the way.

Twin Labyrinth: Get the 30 coin pot, get the 100 coin pot, get the helmet and get out

Mausoleum of Giants: Go back to the star moon room and get stars, climb up hit the weight to activate the ankh jewel. Then leave

Guidance Gate: Get the coin pot in the room to the left, get the ankh jewel, then go to the spring in the sky while grabbing a shuriken pot on the way.

Spring in the Sky: First go the the left and do the water trick. Next kill the subboss and get the conception seal. Grab the Scale sphere. Activate the water, go get the ankh jewel, activate Bahamut's Ankh, drain water into the temple of the sun. Then go back and fight bahamut and hope that he doesn't kill me.

Surface: Get the Birth seal. Then go back to the start, buy hand scanner, game master, and the glyph reader, save.

Haven't got the plan for segment 2 yet but that is segment 1.

TheMaxican

Edit history:

TheMaxican: 2011-05-04 01:23:19 am

2011-05-04 12:34:45 am

Break through the final confusion

Hmm, looks great to me. Can't think of anything else to add, except good luck!

I noticed you said left in a few places you meant right. Just tired, or are you playing some cool mirror mode that I don't know about? Smiley

Right, I just remembered I was going to go update the low%/100% thread. Sounds like we've hit consensus, so let me go that now...

EDIT: Alright, just did so here: http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/low100_definitions_195.html#low100_definitions_195
Anyone feel free to make corrections/suggestions. I realized there's no way to say the low% in a concise way. Smiley

At first I was thinking you could take out ones that are (perhaps not obviously) required to just get another item, but then I realized that it all keeps bubbling up and pretty much just leaves:

Low%: Spears and Pochette Key (and Game Master for Segmented Runs)

(And I'm sure Spears are required to get something else I'm not thinking of, haha...). That just doesn't really seem like a complete definition. Smiley

Well, that and since those are obviously required to beat the bosses (Spears for Viy Ankh, Pochette Key = Palenque Ankh), then you don't really need to list THOSE either, leaving:

Low%: JUST BEAT THE GAME!

...which definitely didn't seem proper. Smiley

Hmm, looks great to me. Can't think of anything else to add, except good luck!

I noticed you said left in a few places you meant right. Just tired, or are you playing some cool mirror mode that I don't know about? :)

Right, I just remembered I was going to go update the low%/100% thread. Sounds like we've hit consensus, so let me go that now...

EDIT: Alright, just did so here: [url]http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/low100_definitions_195.html#low100_definitions_195[/url]
Anyone feel free to make corrections/suggestions. I realized there's no way to say the low% in a concise way. :) At first I was thinking you could take out ones that are (perhaps not obviously) required to just get another item, but then I realized that it all keeps bubbling up and pretty much just leaves:

Low%: Spears and Pochette Key (and Game Master for Segmented Runs)

(And I'm sure Spears are required to get something else I'm not thinking of, haha...). That just doesn't really seem like a complete definition. :)
Well, that and since those are obviously required to beat the bosses (Spears for Viy Ankh, Pochette Key = Palenque Ankh), then you don't really need to list THOSE either, leaving:

Low%: JUST BEAT THE GAME!

...which definitely didn't seem proper. :)

BlueGlass

2011-05-04 03:53:40 am

Yep yep yep!

TheMaxican: Wow, you put a lot of effort into that coin collection math. One more jar you might want to consider, at least in pre-Inferno Cavern segments, is the one in the first room in Sun Temple. Come to think of it, it might actually be worthwhile to take the few seconds to destroy that fake block and lower the wall so you can add it in later too. Also, don't forget when calculating what you'll need that you're picking up coins as you progress anyway, plus that you will still be doing a few segments post-bracelet for Hell Temple, so you can transfer some of the coin collection from pre-bracelet segments to the post-bracelet ones.

Anon: I think I've already brought this up, but it might be faster to head straight for the helmet after geting shurikens, then do Sun Temple on your way up to Spring in the Sky. Another thing you might want to think about, though it'll probably make your life a lot harder, is cutting out that Inferno Cavern trip, holding off on tha area until you have the ice cape, so that you'll only need one trip. Even using shurikens, I don't think a good Ellmac fight, even adding in collecting the needed shurikens, would be as long as traveling all the way down to flares and back, especially pre-boots.

TheMaxican:  Wow, you put a lot of effort into that coin collection math.  One more jar you might want to consider, at least in pre-Inferno Cavern segments, is the one in the first room in Sun Temple.  Come to think of it, it might actually be worthwhile to take the few seconds to destroy that fake block and lower the wall so you can add it in later too.  Also, don't forget when calculating what you'll need that you're picking up coins as you progress anyway, plus that you will still be doing a few segments post-bracelet for Hell Temple, so you can transfer some of the coin collection from pre-bracelet segments to the post-bracelet ones.

Anon:  I think I've already brought this up, but it might be faster to head straight for the helmet after geting shurikens, then do Sun Temple on your way up to Spring in the Sky.  Another thing you might want to think about, though it'll probably make your life a lot harder, is cutting out that Inferno Cavern trip, holding off on tha area until you have the ice cape, so that you'll only need one trip.  Even using shurikens, I don't think a good Ellmac fight, even adding in collecting the needed shurikens, would be as long as traveling all the way down to flares and back, especially pre-boots.

Anonymous52555

2011-05-04 06:19:05 am

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Going into the inferno cavern isn't actually a huge waist of time compared to fighting Ellmac with surikens. However for the helmet it might be barely faster to do it your way. But then you have to factor in that the whip is slower than the knife. So factoring in the star sun and moon room it might just break even. I'll go test this later, I have classes starting soon.

Also it looks pretty good TheMaxican.

BlueGlass

2011-05-04 09:24:14 am

Yep yep yep!

Just keep in mind that you can use shurikens during the sun-moon-stars puzzle. Since you'll be able to use a few flares on Bahamut (need to keep at least two so you'll have enough for Ellmac next segment), the shurikens could be used there instead.

Anonymous52555

2011-05-04 05:23:18 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Alright so it is slightly faster. But also I get the hardest part out of the way first so um I am ok with the route change.

TheMaxican

2011-05-04 09:40:26 pm

Break through the final confusion

Ah yes, BlueGlass, that jar was under my consideration as well. Unfortunately, it's another 12-er (actually, I made a mistake by not including it in the list above, my bad), so yeah, it may be one of those early-only jars. Whether or not I have to break the block or not is something I'll find out by the time I've finished the plan (you'll note that the switch to unlock the Map is, like, right there, so it wouldn't be too much of a time loss).

We'll see about post-bracelet Hell Temple segments. Due to my intense Shuriken usage, it turns out that the Bracelet is seriously not going to save me much (like maybe a second every segment at most, so like maybe a minute of the WHOLE run). Even just breaking jar with the Gaunlet'd Knife is really not THAT much slower. That and I'd definitely like to optimize so that I buy whatever I need as part of just naturally visiting areas, so that I don't have to waste the time to come back to an area later just to hit up a shop - and that late in the game, the only place it'll really help is the F1 Spirit shop in Confusion Gate (the last place I'll have to buy things, and that's IF I don't happen to have the coins at the time I go there first), since I'm going there to do the Duracuets part + get the Body Armor + mantra chanting in one go. So yeah, I just may not end up needing it anyway. But, again, we'll see. Smiley

And nice catch on helmet before Sun Temple, I didn't see that one coming. But yeah, fighting Ellmac without flares is pretty freaking slow, especially since you can't really afford to take the hits in a low%...

Ah yes, BlueGlass, that jar was under my consideration as well. Unfortunately, it's another 12-er (actually, I made a mistake by not including it in the list above, my bad), so yeah, it may be one of those early-only jars. Whether or not I have to break the block or not is something I'll find out by the time I've finished the plan (you'll note that the switch to unlock the Map is, like, right there, so it wouldn't be too much of a time loss).

We'll see about post-bracelet Hell Temple segments. Due to my intense Shuriken usage, it turns out that the Bracelet is seriously not going to save me much (like maybe a second every segment at most, so like maybe a minute of the WHOLE run). Even just breaking jar with the Gaunlet'd Knife is really not THAT much slower. That and I'd definitely like to optimize so that I buy whatever I need as part of just naturally visiting areas, so that I don't have to waste the time to come back to an area later just to hit up a shop - and that late in the game, the only place it'll really help is the F1 Spirit shop in Confusion Gate (the last place I'll have to buy things, and that's IF I don't happen to have the coins at the time I go there first), since I'm going there to do the Duracuets part + get the Body Armor + mantra chanting in one go. So yeah, I just may not end up needing it anyway. But, again, we'll see. :)

And nice catch on helmet before Sun Temple, I didn't see that one coming. But yeah, fighting Ellmac without flares is pretty freaking slow, especially since you can't really afford to take the hits in a low%...

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-04 10:25:42 pm

2011-05-04 09:58:59 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Alright um btw the flare pot in the temple of the sun, to the left of the entrance, didn't show up. Anyone have an idea of why?

BlueGlass

2011-05-04 11:06:25 pm

Yep yep yep!

If you break the pot prior to getting the flare gun, they won't show up until you save/reload. Is that what happened?

Anonymous52555

2011-05-05 05:41:02 am

Metroidvanias are God Tier

I did not break the pot. I'll try it again. That just took me off guard.