Kirby's Return to Dreamland 100% Definition

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-02-06 08:49:29 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-02-05 11:46:17 am

kirbymastah: 2012-02-05 11:27:19 am

2012-02-05 11:25:07 am

<(^_^)>

There's been a little discussion about the SDA definition of Kirby's Return to Dreamland for 100% main mode (not the entire game, that'd be ridiculous), and I wanted to discuss further here and clarify & finalize it.

I personally think that the definition should be game-defined 100% main mode, including finishing the game, collecting all 120 energy spheres, and completion of all challenge rooms (regardless of score, 100% is still obtained).

But some people say that it should be 93%, meaning only the first two, but no challenge rooms. This was argued because the definition for Kirby's Dreamland 3 was an example where the 100% definition is not game-defined 100%, because the game-defined version required completion of mini-games, which destroyed the pace of the run.

My personal argument against that is that KRtD is very different form KD3. Challenge rooms, while not part of the main game, still have the same gameplay (unlike minigames in KD3), as in, you are still controlling Kirby with an ability, just like 80% of the time in the stages. Also, I think it's a great way to showcase certain abilities even more (and most of them look impressive too, with my strats), especially sword and whip, which are hardly ever used in the main game. The challenge rooms are not completely out of the way, and only take up 10-15 minutes total of impressive content similar with the main game (in about a 3-hour-ish run).

At the same time, it doesn't affect the run directly except by adding 10-15 minutes of extra fun content, and an actual message from the game after the credits literally saying, "YOU'VE CLEARED MAIN MODE 100%!" (or something along those lines). The only detour I need to make is to go back to the Lor Starcutter after 7-3, then go back to 7-4 after finishing the challenge rooms.

What do you all say?

Thread title:

There's been a little discussion about the SDA definition of Kirby's Return to Dreamland for 100% [b]main mode[/b] (not the entire game, that'd be ridiculous), and I wanted to discuss further here and clarify & finalize it.

I personally think that the definition should be game-defined 100% main mode, including finishing the game, collecting all 120 energy spheres, and completion of all challenge rooms (regardless of score, 100% is still obtained).

But some people say that it should be 93%, meaning only the first two, but no challenge rooms. This was argued because the definition for Kirby's Dreamland 3 was an example where the 100% definition is not game-defined 100%, because the game-defined version required completion of mini-games, which destroyed the pace of the run.

My personal argument against that is that KRtD is very different form KD3. Challenge rooms, while not part of the main game, still have the same gameplay (unlike minigames in KD3), as in, you are still controlling Kirby with an ability, just like 80% of the time in the stages. Also, I think it's a great way to showcase certain abilities even more (and most of them look impressive too, with my strats), especially sword and whip, which are hardly ever used in the main game. The challenge rooms are not completely out of the way, and only take up 10-15 minutes total of impressive content similar with the main game (in about a 3-hour-ish run).

At the same time, it doesn't affect the run directly except by adding 10-15 minutes of extra fun content, and an actual message from the game after the credits literally saying, "YOU'VE CLEARED MAIN MODE 100%!" (or something along those lines). The only detour I need to make is to go back to the Lor Starcutter after 7-3, then go back to 7-4 after finishing the challenge rooms.

What do you all say?

Sir VG

2012-02-05 12:22:18 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

I still stand behind my thoughts of 93% = 100% for the same reason that KDL3 97% = 100%. It's not part of the main game.

It's silly to slop though 7 mini-games just to get the last in-game 7% completion.

romscout

2012-02-05 12:35:09 pm

that Metroidvania guy

I don't think this really matches up with KDL3's ruling since you can access the games from the map (well, by going to the ship in the map). Plus, half the things you have to complete in there are actual gameplay stages. Since you can get 100% on a single playthrough (meaning, you don't have to see the ending first), it only makes sense that you should have to do that in order to actually have a 100% completion for SDA.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-02-05 12:42:07 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-02-05 12:39:42 pm

2012-02-05 12:38:53 pm

<(^_^)>

They aren't minigames in the same manner like the minigames in KDL3 though. This game literally tells you, "you've completed 100% main mode!" after beating the game with the requirements.

Plus, it's not like it's terrible to backtrack to finish the challenge rooms; in my route, I need to go back to the Lor Starcutter to grab a hammer ability anyways to own Landia and Magolor

If it was Ninja Dojo or Scope Shot being required for 100% in KRtD, then yes, I would understand and agree with you to some extent, since they aren't real stages, but these 'minigames' are actual stages. I don't think it's silly at all to watch a fast playthrough of these stages, especially for abilities that aren't seen much at all.

Just to throw this out there, by your definition, if I was playing donkey kong country 2/3, then I would not care about getting more than 100%. Why are those 101/102% runs accepted, then? The extra percent or two is generally obtained only from visiting various map locations. While it is true that they aren't minigames like in KDL3, but why do speed runners bother with that extra percent when we've already 'cleared' the entire main game, aka beat the true final boss? (i may be wrong with this, if so, please correct me <_<)

They aren't minigames in the same manner like the minigames in KDL3 though. This game literally tells you, "you've completed 100% main mode!" after beating the game with the requirements.

Plus, it's not like it's terrible to backtrack to finish the challenge rooms; in my route, I need to go back to the Lor Starcutter to grab a hammer ability anyways to own Landia and Magolor

If it was Ninja Dojo or Scope Shot being required for 100% in KRtD, then yes, I would understand and agree with you to some extent, since they aren't real stages, but these 'minigames' are actual stages. I don't think it's silly at all to watch a fast playthrough of these stages, especially for abilities that aren't seen much at all.

Just to throw this out there, by your definition, if I was playing donkey kong country 2/3, then I would not care about getting more than 100%. Why are those 101/102% runs accepted, then? The extra percent or two is generally obtained only from visiting various map locations. While it is true that they aren't minigames like in KDL3, but why do speed runners bother with that extra percent when we've already 'cleared' the entire main game, aka beat the true final boss? (i may be wrong with this, if so, please correct me <_<)

Mapler90210

2012-02-05 06:12:57 pm

Like Romscout said, there is no reason KDL3's ruling would apply here. In-game 100% should be used for this game. Honestly, though, even if you had to go back after beating the game, I'd say this needs to be done, since the mini-games that count towards 100% are more like the extra levels in SMW2 than the minigames in KDL3, imo.

yoshifan

Edit history:

yoshifan: 2012-02-06 01:26:45 am

yoshifan: 2012-02-05 10:31:24 pm

2012-02-05 10:30:55 pm

It's always a bit of a gray area to determine when in-game 100% is silly enough to ignore (I know Sonic Adventure 2 emblems definitely has this problem...).

For the record, here's the bigger picture of what Kirby's Return to Dream Land tracks for completion:

File
- Main Mode
--- 30 stages, 7 bosses, and 1 final area
--- 120 Energy Spheres
--- 7 Challenge rooms
- Arena (boss rush)
- Extra Mode (unlocked after finishing Main with a certain %, I think. Largely the same as Main, but more enemies, less health, and tougher boss patterns)
--- 30 stages, 7 bosses, and 1 final area
--- 120 Energy Spheres
--- 7 Challenge rooms
- True Arena (boss rush, based on Extra bosses)

Main Mode tracks percentage, tops at 100%. If you do everything besides Challenge rooms, you get 93%.
Extra Mode tracks percentage, tops at 100%. If you do everything besides Challenge rooms, you get 93%.
When everything above is completed, the game congratulates you on being a Kirby Master.

The Challenge rooms offer Bronze, Silver, Gold, and Platinum medals depending on your score (which is based on enemies defeated, coins collected, and time remaining), but you don't need to worry about medals to get 100%.

I think the fact that Challenge rooms are counted within Main Mode makes a pretty decent case for counting the Challenge rooms in a Main Mode 100% run (the category currently being discussed). Especially in contrast to the Arenas, which are only counted toward file completion. And as previously discussed, the Challenge rooms are very much real Kirby gameplay, and you can skip the explanations and everything. To me, it feels less minigame-y than something like ray surfing in Mario Galaxy.

It's always a bit of a gray area to determine when in-game 100% is silly enough to ignore (I know Sonic Adventure 2 emblems definitely has this problem...).

For the record, here's the bigger picture of what Kirby's Return to Dream Land tracks for completion:

[spoiler]
File
- Main Mode
--- 30 stages, 7 bosses, and 1 final area
--- 120 Energy Spheres
--- 7 Challenge rooms
- Arena (boss rush)
- Extra Mode (unlocked after finishing Main with a certain %, I think.  Largely the same as Main, but more enemies, less health, and tougher boss patterns)
--- 30 stages, 7 bosses, and 1 final area
--- 120 Energy Spheres
--- 7 Challenge rooms
- True Arena (boss rush, based on Extra bosses)

Main Mode tracks percentage, tops at 100%.  If you do everything besides Challenge rooms, you get 93%.
Extra Mode tracks percentage, tops at 100%.  If you do everything besides Challenge rooms, you get 93%.
When everything above is completed, the game congratulates you on being a Kirby Master.

The Challenge rooms offer Bronze, Silver, Gold, and Platinum medals depending on your score (which is based on enemies defeated, coins collected, and time remaining), but you don't need to worry about medals to get 100%.
[/spoiler]

I think the fact that Challenge rooms are counted [i]within[/i] Main Mode makes a pretty decent case for counting the Challenge rooms in a Main Mode 100% run (the category currently being discussed).  Especially in contrast to the Arenas, which are only counted toward file completion.  And as previously discussed, the Challenge rooms are very much real Kirby gameplay, and you can skip the explanations and everything.  To me, it feels less minigame-y than something like ray surfing in Mario Galaxy.

Floogal

2012-02-06 04:58:41 pm

My opinion on the matter:

2 categories:
- any%
- all Energy Spheres
Also, IL table for the challenge rooms.

My reasoning is that those watching the main game probably don't care for the minigames, and it will be disruptive to the flow to suddenly spend 10 minutes doing them right before the final bosses. This will also encourage cleaner, better challenge room runs, as those wanting to watch them will probably only be interested in them, and not the regular game.

Who cares if the game tracks you as 100% or not -- you've technically only 100%'d one part of the game file. You've still got Extra mode & two arenas left....

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-02-06 08:48:03 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-02-06 08:47:17 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-02-06 08:46:28 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-02-06 06:15:30 pm

2012-02-06 05:50:50 pm

<(^_^)>

Well first, for your last comment, it's called 100% main mode, so yeah, we wouldn't care about arena/extra mode / etc, only 100%'d that part of the game file, so I'm not sure what the problem is here.

As I said, it's not that disruptive to the flow as I need to return to the Lor Starcutter to grab abilities before the final boss anyways (or at least have that option). It won't be that disruptive because it consists of normal Kirby gameplay, which are essentially extra levels. Particularly if they're done as quickly as the rest of the run Smiley

Furthermore, IL tables for challenge room runs would naturally be how fast someone can platinum them. Challenge rooms in a 100% speed run would be different because we don't care about score, we only care about speed, rather than collecting and killing everything with speed, so challenge rooms in a 100% run would be different.

Are challenge rooms minigames? IMO they're only a little more minigame-like than the challenge levels in Super Mario World. Super Mario World's challenge levels are completely optional in completing the game normally, and don't have any direct impact on the main gameplay (unlike star world levels, which unlock colored yoshis). They are essentially extra levels. So by your logic, we should not complete challenge levels in Super Mario World either, even though the game qualifies them as 100%, because they don't have any direct impact on the main game. Same idea in this game.

Yoshi's Island. We shouldn't count the extra levels for 100%, should we? Because they're just extra levels, even though the game credits you with completion of the entire game with stars on the game file screen. After all, the game says "PERFECT!" after you've 100%'d the main levels in a world, so we shouldn't concern ourselves with the extra levels, right?

Well first, for your last comment, it's called 100% main mode, so yeah, we wouldn't care about arena/extra mode / etc, only 100%'d that part of the game file, so I'm not sure what the problem is here.

As I said, it's not that disruptive to the flow as I need to return to the Lor Starcutter to grab abilities before the final boss anyways (or at least have that option). It won't be that disruptive because it consists of normal Kirby gameplay, which are essentially extra levels. Particularly if they're done as quickly as the rest of the run :)

Furthermore, IL tables for challenge room runs would naturally be how fast someone can platinum them. Challenge rooms in a 100% speed run would be different because we don't care about score, we only care about speed, rather than collecting and killing everything with speed, so challenge rooms in a 100% run would be different.

Are challenge rooms minigames? IMO they're only a little more minigame-like than the challenge levels in Super Mario World. Super Mario World's challenge levels are completely optional in completing the game normally, and don't have any direct impact on the main gameplay (unlike star world levels, which unlock colored yoshis). They are essentially extra levels. So by your logic, we should not complete challenge levels in Super Mario World either, even though the game qualifies them as 100%, because they don't have any direct impact on the main game. Same idea in this game.

Yoshi's Island. We shouldn't count the extra levels for 100%, should we? Because they're just extra levels, even though the game credits you with completion of the entire game with stars on the game file screen. After all, the game says "PERFECT!" after you've 100%'d the main levels in a world, so we shouldn't concern ourselves with the extra levels, right?

Floogal

2012-02-07 04:19:37 pm

Actually, you've got the effects of Super Mario World confused: Star World doesn't unlock anything (non-Star World yoshis are always green -- was this changed in a non-SNES version?), while completing the Special Zone actually changes the colouring of some koopa shells (where there used to be green, there's now blue, etc.).

Back to the topic at hand, I could be nitpicky about how Mario World 1 & 2's optional levels are in the same format as regular levels, while KrtD's medal trials are different (not on regular map screen, no goal minigame, etc), but I think I'll stop.

I did forget that the trials in a 100% run would be aiming for speed instead of score. And it's not like Kirby's Dreamland 2 + 3 + 64, where the things in the levels are required for the final boss -- in this game, the energy spheres do nothing more than work towards 100%, which the medal trials also do.

So, you've convinced me. 100% should probably actually be "100%".

Greenalink

2012-02-08 09:16:41 am

DS Dictator

Quote:

Star World doesn't unlock anything (non-Star World yoshis are always green -- was this changed in a non-SNES version?)

From what I remember on the GBA version, after you first encounter them on the star world, you can get a non-green Yoshi on any stage depending on the current powerup Mario/Luigi is using.

TheOthin

2012-02-08 03:40:39 pm

You can definitely get different color Yoshis in the Top Secret Area after encountering them, at least in the GBA version. I remember going there for Blue Yoshis many times. Don't know about other areas, but that sounds accurate.

kirbymastah

2012-02-09 03:32:24 pm

<(^_^)>

whoops, I guess I was talking about the GBA version of Super Mario world, since you can get colored yoshis outside the Star World after unlocking them, depending on what power you have. I almost always kept Cape after unlocking blue yoshi since you get blue yoshi outside the star world / extra levels if you have cape.